SquirrelMeat said:

WhenFansCry said:

Rumour has it that the team of Michael Howe left an SDE of D&P/lovesymbol.

IF this is all confirmed, the new estate chose to focus on one album only and provide more material on this chosen album (having a similar number of discs for two albums instead of one would mean less space for each of the two albums). Londell did say that not enough was being released on previous SDE's. Again, if confirmed, this release will support that Londell does want to release more material around each album, putting words into action.

That arguement falls apart if I wonder, Uh Huh! and the full version of Love Thy Will Be Done are left out.

And the earlier version of The Flow with Rosie on that was originally on D&P.

.

BSonmor said:

WhenFansCry said:

Rumour has it that the team of Michael Howe left an SDE of D&P/lovesymbol.

IF this is all confirmed, the new estate chose to focus on one album only and provide more material on this chosen album (having a similar number of discs for two albums instead of one would mean less space for each of the two albums). Londell did say that not enough was being released on previous SDE's. Again, if confirmed, this release will support that Londell does want to release more material around each album, putting words into action.

I don't buy this for one second. There was never any proof of a D&P/Lovesymbol box. If anything, all Londell and Spicer managed to do was delay the D&P Box set for two years. Don't try to make them out as heros. The REAL hero here is Michael Howe.

[Edited 8/20/23 19:11pm]

BSonmor said:

WhenFansCry said:

Rumour has it that the team of Michael Howe left an SDE of D&P/lovesymbol.

IF this is all confirmed, the new estate chose to focus on one album only and provide more material on this chosen album (having a similar number of discs for two albums instead of one would mean less space for each of the two albums). Londell did say that not enough was being released on previous SDE's. Again, if confirmed, this release will support that Londell does want to release more material around each album, putting words into action.

I don't buy this for one second. There was never any proof of a D&P/Lovesymbol box. If anything, all Londell and Spicer managed to do was delay the D&P Box set for two years. Don't try to make them out as heros. The REAL hero here is Michael Howe.

[Edited 8/20/23 19:11pm]

rap said:

BSonmor said:

I don't buy this for one second. There was never any proof of a D&P/Lovesymbol box. If anything, all Londell and Spicer managed to do was delay the D&P Box set for two years. Don't try to make them out as heros. The REAL hero here is Michael Howe.

[Edited 8/20/23 19:11pm]

After the lackluster SDE's and his editing and censoring of Prince I'm glad we're finally off of Howe.
Londell and Spicer didn't delay anything (the reason for the delay are well known by now and they had nothing to do with it) in fact they wanted more music on the SDE's, like us.
So blaming them now for everything is kind of weird but understandable, i don't like those guys either, but wether we like it or not, they are on our side with this, and Howe and co. obvioously weren't.
Weird to see peole sudden;ly prasing and even calling Howe a 'Hero' now.

why wasnt howe on the fans side again? i cant remember.

you cant trust estates as a rule

they have to think of future releases... so if tracks are left off now, it is prob cos they are saving it for a later release.

they are often shrewd like that

JorisE73 said:

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

Imagining howe walking out iron mountain with the tapes to protect them

You mean to edit them right?

with the source materials how they seemingly are (is not all tapes in great condition, some stuff clearly eitehr unlocatable or no one to bother searching), it seems like there was no option other than splicing for certain songs. these are pretty old songs now. its inevitable that as prince wasnt looking after them well, that this kind of thing would happen

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

why wasnt howe on the fans side again? i cant remember.

you cant trust estates as a rule

they have to think of future releases... so if tracks are left off now, it is prob cos they are saving it for a later release.

they are often shrewd like that

He lied to fans about tracks, edited tracks when promised to only release 'finished' material and not tamper with them by any means, refused to comment on ommited tracls on the SDE etc.
Leaving off Extra Loveable (both early versions) and not explaining why, same with Lust U Always and a list of 1999 and SOTT essentials that weren't so called 'originals' so those ween't left off in favor of releasing them on a Originals 2.

[Edited 8/21/23 4:23am]

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

JorisE73 said:

You mean to edit them right?

with the source materials how they seemingly are (is not all tapes in great condition, some stuff clearly eitehr unlocatable or no one to bother searching), it seems like there was no option other than splicing for certain songs. these are pretty old songs now. its inevitable that as prince wasnt looking after them well, that this kind of thing would happen

There's a difference between remixing a song from multitracks as close as possible if the original source is damaged (this is regarding Wally and they didn't even include it on the set even when the undamaged tape copies are in the hands of a few now) and tacking on the ending of a complete different version of a track to another versionm of a track (Rebirth of teh Flesh) and the less said about Originals (that most of the album isn't) the better.

We're blaming Howe personally for leaving off "Extraloveable" and "Lust U Always" off 1999 SDE now?

What a mystery as to why they were left off. If only that dasterdly Michael Howe gave us one reason why, dammit...

Howe and previous co. at least got two SDE's under their belt.

Let's wait for Londell & Spicer to have at least two SDE's before we start deeming one the villain and the other the savior, and that goes for either side of the argument.

Last I checked the new admin only released two tracks and one of them was left in mono. So we're batting 50% thus far. A lot of the Originals remixing and Phil Spector wall'O'reverb was lame too, but at least Michael Howe knew how to output to stereo...

I also don't see how this D&P tracklisting equates to "more Vault." Looks like about the same two discs of bonus material with tons of known tracks missing the previous admin was putting out already... There's a strong possibility/liklihood both versions of the Estate suck.

WhisperingDandelions said:

We're blaming Howe personally for leaving off "Extraloveable" and "Lust U Always" off 1999 SDE now?

What a mystery as to why they were left off. If only that dasterdly Michael Howe gave us one reason why, dammit...

Well, people blame Lonny and Spicer for everything happening now in the Estate even tho they are just a tiny part of it and a huge part of it is a professional company who are experienced with these kind of things.
Howe was also the guy who dropped everything in favor of hastily releasing a subpar copy of a widely bootlegged piano recording. Howe and his team decided to leave off EL and LUA for reasons unknown, yes?

[Edited 8/21/23 4:34am]

JorisE73 said:

Well, people blame Lonny and Spicer for everything happening now in the Estate even tho they are just a tiny part of it and a huge part of it is a professional company who are experienced with these kind of things.

Experienced with intentionally transcoding to 128kbps MP3 to deter bootlegging?

Or mixing down to mono in 2023 when mono went out in 1967?

You're saying a "professional" company is responsible for these decisions?

JorisE73 said:

Howe and his team decided to leave off EL and LUA for reasons unknown, yes?

lolwut?

This has gotta be the most absurd reason I've read to bash Michael Howe.

You really believe it's a mystery why those songs were left off? And that Spicer/Londell foibles should be deferred to outside entities, but leaving off songs with overt rape lyrics/rape fantasies in a post-cancel-culture corporate-precautious era is stooge cog-in-the-machine Michael Howe's personal responsibility?

WhisperingDandelions said:

Howe and previous co. at least got two SDE's under their belt.

Let's wait for Londell & Spicer to have at least two SDE's before we start deeming one the villain and the other the savior, and that goes for either side of the argument.

Last I checked the new admin only released two tracks and one of them was left in mono. So we're batting 50% thus far. A lot of the Originals remixing and Phil Spector wall'O'reverb was lame too, but at least Michael Howe knew how to output to stereo...

I also don't see how this D&P tracklisting equates to "more Vault." Looks like about the same two discs of bonus material with tons of known tracks missing the previous admin was putting out already... There's a strong possibility/liklihood both versions of the Estate suck.

D&P SDE was already finished 2 years ago, so this could just be list of what Howe and Co put together.
The people at the Celebration already said that the tracks playd there were of better quality than what was released on the USB and on streaming (Lonny and Spicer explained partly why that was)
The CDR with all the 2023 Celebration tracks on it that a wellknown guy has has both of these tracks in proper quality so obviously these wee watered down intentionally (like Spicer explained and in the end he was right)

Look, I'm as sceptical to any upcoming release as I was with Howe and Co but they have shown they weren't up for the job. I'm waiting for the new Estate to release 3 SDE's before I criticise them. At least they said they wanted to do the things we asked for and are more transparent (very slightly) than Howe and co.

WhisperingDandelions said:

JorisE73 said:

Well, people blame Lonny and Spicer for everything happening now in the Estate even tho they are just a tiny part of it and a huge part of it is a professional company who are experienced with these kind of things.

Experienced with intentionally transcoding to 128kbps MP3 to deter bootlegging?

Or mixing down to mono in 2023 when mono went out in 1967?

You're saying a "professional" company is responsible for these decisions?

JorisE73 said:

Howe and his team decided to leave off EL and LUA for reasons unknown, yes?

lolwut?

This has gotta be the most absurd reason I've read to bash Michael Howe.

You really believe it's a mystery why those songs were left off? And that Spicer/Londell foibles should be deferred to outside entities, but leaving off songs with overt rape lyrics/rape fantasies in a post-cancel-culture corporate-precautious era is stooge cog-in-the-machine Michael Howe's personal responsibility?

Lonny and Spicer explained why that was, if you don't care to look at that then by all means make up whatever you want.
I'm just saying a professiional company is in there doing what they are experienced in I didn't say anything about them doing anything to any release.

We all know what the lyrics were and made up our minds why they were left off, Howe didn't explain it tho (EDIT: apparently he did, but I didn't know that because I learned not to believe anything that guy says). An official word is always better than fan speculations even if it ends up being the same.
For what we've seen Howe lied to fans about releases, did things he said they would never do so, yeah, to me Howe is rightfully booted from there.

[Edited 8/21/23 4:56am]

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

Those two 1999 outtakes were left off as they admitted they had concerns about how that would play in the era of artists being cancelled Howe said it in an interview

Ok, dumb reason to cave to a vocal few headcases.
This is like banning a thriller detective book because someone get raped in it.

[Edited 8/21/23 4:54am]

[Edited 8/21/23 4:57am]

bwaaatch said:

My understanding was that Michael Howe was a technician/archivist/consultant. He was not a decision-maker in the estate, though the powers-that-were may have listened to his input. Comparing him with Spicer and McMillan makes no sense to me. The former is a hired hand on a search and recovery mission. The latter are the supposed impresarios and keepers of the ‘legacy’. Apples and oranges, I think. Whoever is doing Howe’s job now, the new estate have obviously decided not to allow them any media time, yet. That might be right or wrong. They may have felt that they allowed Howe a long leash and that he sometimes said too much. He certainly proved a useful scapegoat, though. At least in the eyes of some fans. The new guys frankly sound like assholes, but at least with all the bravado they are kind of fronting up for the whole thing. If it goes wrong from here, we know who is responsible. Howe never had or claimed such ownership.

I don't have the time to search for the source but Michael Howe once talked about the making of the 1999 SDE (several months before its official release) and both tracks were initially part of the project. Though he didn't name them expressly, he talked about 2 tracks very explicit that he chose to include in the SDE's Vault tracks.

Whoever it was at the time, The Estate chose not to include them not him.

WhenFansCry said:

bwaaatch said:

My understanding was that Michael Howe was a technician/archivist/consultant. He was not a decision-maker in the estate, though the powers-that-were may have listened to his input. Comparing him with Spicer and McMillan makes no sense to me. The former is a hired hand on a search and recovery mission. The latter are the supposed impresarios and keepers of the ‘legacy’. Apples and oranges, I think. Whoever is doing Howe’s job now, the new estate have obviously decided not to allow them any media time, yet. That might be right or wrong. They may have felt that they allowed Howe a long leash and that he sometimes said too much. He certainly proved a useful scapegoat, though. At least in the eyes of some fans. The new guys frankly sound like assholes, but at least with all the bravado they are kind of fronting up for the whole thing. If it goes wrong from here, we know who is responsible. Howe never had or claimed such ownership.

I agree that Spicer and Lonny sound like assholes but they are just a small vocal part of the Estate. The major shareholder is Primary Wave and they have experience in this field and I think whatever get decided is between Primary Wave and what is left of the family who still have a little piece of it.
Maybe Primary Wave gets to overrule the smaller shareholders when needed.
All I know is is that Lonny and Spicer want more music out ASAP and also said they thought the released SDE's missed to much material (as most people who saw the lists with tracks that also should have been on there (not counting 'original' versions of tracks) and wanted bigger releases. So hopefully we'll get better archival releases like the Bob Dylan ones.

happyshopper said:

WhenFansCry said:

Rumour has it that the team of Michael Howe left an SDE of D&P/lovesymbol.

IF this is all confirmed, the new estate chose to focus on one album only and provide more material on this chosen album (having a similar number of discs for two albums instead of one would mean less space for each of the two albums). Londell did say that not enough was being released on previous SDE's. Again, if confirmed, this release will support that Londell does want to release more material around each album, putting words into action.

This was definitely happening, and ready to go into production. Not stopped to add more to each SDE though, as far as I’ve been told. More because it was so much in one release… and the estate seems to hate giving too much away in one go.

It may be more rational to release D&P SDE as a stand alone release as opposed to a combo release with the Lovesymbol album but the consequence of that choice is that we'll never get a Symbol SDE as a stand alone release. At least not before 2035 or so.

They'll probably release this year a remastered version of the album and that will be it.

There's no perfect strategy.

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

Its a business Even with an artist with so many vault songs, they will want to ensure something from these important eras remains so they have something for future releases, deluxe editions, box sets, compilations etc

.
They'll never run out of material. Even if when they already released every song, they will still have tons of live and rehearsal recordings to fall back to, and when they run out of those as well (perhaps in 100 years), they can always go back to remixing and remastering previously released masters.

JorisE73 said:

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

why wasnt howe on the fans side again? i cant remember.

you cant trust estates as a rule

they have to think of future releases... so if tracks are left off now, it is prob cos they are saving it for a later release.

they are often shrewd like that

He lied to fans about tracks, edited tracks when promised to only release 'finished' material and not tamper with them by any means, refused to comment on ommited tracls on the SDE etc.
Leaving off Extra Loveable (both early versions) and not explaining why, same with Lust U Always and a list of 1999 and SOTT essentials that weren't so called 'originals' so those ween't left off in favor of releasing them on a Originals 2.

[Edited 8/21/23 4:23am]

Do you truly believe Mike Howe was solely responsible for what was in or out of a SDE? To me, the man did a stellar job.

JoeyCococo said:

JorisE73 said:

He lied to fans about tracks, edited tracks when promised to only release 'finished' material and not tamper with them by any means, refused to comment on ommited tracls on the SDE etc.
Leaving off Extra Loveable (both early versions) and not explaining why, same with Lust U Always and a list of 1999 and SOTT essentials that weren't so called 'originals' so those ween't left off in favor of releasing them on a Originals 2.

[Edited 8/21/23 4:23am]

Do you truly believe Mike Howe was solely responsible for what was in or out of a SDE? To me, the man did a stellar job.

No and I didn't say that. It seems he did his job at the most minimum, nothing 'stellar' about that and he completely failed as a spoke person (when they needed that) for the Estate to the fans or press, his BS about the releases and tracks is not something I'll miss.
Honestly the only great thing the former Estate did was hiring Chris James. Hopefully the new Estate will keep him to oversee and remix the live material, otherwise we'll get more of that bad SOTT live show mix for the venue on SOTT SDE instead of a proper mix to listen to at home setting (I don't live at the venue the recording was made for so don't need to hear that mix outside of that setting unless it's on a free bootleg) so if he could work his magic on that show I'll be happy to pay for it again.

[Edited 8/21/23 8:06am]

Official Twitter account just made a post about an announcement, though I feel they have the wrong date - surely 8/14 was LAST Monday?? https://twitter.com/princ...7698293047