With a lot of the bootlegs we all heard before and new material surfacing on the SDEs, I think Prince at that times was fantastic to choose the "right" songs for his albums.

There are great songs which were not released at the times, but I really think they would not have made the albums better - in terms of song quality and flow.

I know we are talking about absolute master works with 1999, PR and SOTT - so yes, it is hard to have songs being better than the released ones.

Let's wait and see about the D&P SDE - this album while commercially great was not a "master work" in my opinion - so I am curious to see if the outtakes maybe are better than the original featured songs... but the two released ones Alice and Get Blue don't really rock my boat...

I know there are some orgers out here that think real diamonds were left off the official releases (Electric Intercourse / Possessed / Purple Music / Moonbeam Levels / Train... to name just a few) - but I don't think these songs would have made the albums better. Different, but not better...

DISCUSS !!!

I do not fully agree.

Prince was just a mere human who also made bizarre decisions.

When he became a big star, high and lonely on the top,

plus his gained freedom from companies and contracts,

his choices were not always the best ;

few examples :

- Grafitti Bridge

- Emancipation

- Symbol Album

- The Hits (don't knwo if he was fully involved)

- The Vault, Old friends For Sale

- Chaos and Disorder

- NewPowerSoul

- 3121

- The Daisy Chain

- Rainbow Children

plus the 3rdeye collabs albums.

In my opinion of course.

I do think Prince generally did a decent job at choosing a selection of songs that flowed well and fit his artistic vision, but I don't necessarily think he nailed every single album's tracklisting. I think "Free" is the biggest example of this - it doesn't match the vibe or quality of the rest of the 1999 album on any level, and people certainly wouldn't think any less of the album if Prince had put a much better song in its place.

bozojones said:

I do think Prince generally did a decent job at choosing a selection of songs that flowed well and fit his artistic vision, but I don't necessarily think he nailed every single album's tracklisting. I think "Free" is the biggest example of this - it doesn't match the vibe or quality of the rest of the 1999 album on any level, and people certainly wouldn't think any less of the album if Prince had put a much better song in its place.

I was going to make the same point.

Prince was indeed genious at squencing, he had great tastes, and overall he did a much better job than any of us fans would. But each of those statements, while true, are generalizations. Meaning, they're largely but not entirely true.

Prince was human. He wasn't perfect. Like all of us, sometimes his judgment was off. There are absolultey some specific sequencing choices he made that we can quibble with. I think all of use fans would argee that's generally true, but we'd disagree on which specific choices those were.

bozojones said:

I do think Prince generally did a decent job at choosing a selection of songs that flowed well and fit his artistic vision, but I don't necessarily think he nailed every single album's tracklisting. I think "Free" is the biggest example of this - it doesn't match the vibe or quality of the rest of the 1999 album on any level, and people certainly wouldn't think any less of the album if Prince had put a much better song in its place.

I agree, and song length, taking 1999 as the example.

I like automatic, does it need to be 9:28 long? no. He culd have put another song on the album, same with Free.

I think Prince needed another ear when it came to song and single choice.

I'd say this is about perspective. We know the albums as they are. For years, decades, we had no context to anything else. It sounded like Prince just recorded these songs and put them out. We didn't know just how prolific he was, nor what any of that sounded like until more recent times when bootlegging became big business. Even more so with the onset of Napster, Kazaa, etc.

I do think "Moonbeam Levels" deserved a spot somewhere. As did "Old Friends 4 Sale/All My Dreams." And not just on some compilation of random ass tracks.

In general, I'd say most times they were correct decisions. Prince wasn't some flighty musician who just threw shit together. He very well understood business, cohesion, etc for an album and its pending promotional campaign. So yes, most times he chose the right materal. But there is almost always one track I could do without on an album. Stuff like "The Ladder," "Life Can Be So Nice," "Slow Love" or "IT," "When 2 R In Love" as examples - all are fine tracks, but could there be something a bit better in there? Certainly.

TrivialPursuit said:

I'd say this is about perspective. We know the albums as they are. For years, decades, we had no context to anything else. It sounded like Prince just recorded these songs and put them out. We didn't know just how prolific he was, nor what any of that sounded like until more recent times when bootlegging became big business. Even more so with the onset of Napster, Kazaa, etc.

I do think "Moonbeam Levels" deserved a spot somewhere. As did "Old Friends 4 Sale/All My Dreams." And not just on some compilation of random ass tracks.

In general, I'd say most times they were correct decisions. Prince wasn't some flighty musician who just threw shit together. He very well understood business, cohesion, etc for an album and its pending promotional campaign. So yes, most times he chose the right materal. But there is almost always one track I could do without on an album. Stuff like "The Ladder," "Life Can Be So Nice," "Slow Love" or "IT," "When 2 R In Love" as examples - all are fine tracks, but could there be something a bit better in there? Certainly.

That's an important point as well. It's easy to say "(insert album) couldn't have worked with any other tracklist, it's perfect as is" when you've listened to that specific tracklisting for decades because Prince chose to release it that way. If 1999 had come out with "Moonbeam Levels" instead of "Free", those same people would say the same thing now and talk about how "Free" was left on the cutting room floor for a reason.

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

Mostly He was a good album editor up to a period But then cds as the main format threw his instincts off And then his judgement and ambitions/plans/interests/tastes etc for albums changed so ofc what he picked changed How else to explain why pussy control was track one on TGE and interactive was nowhere? Or how he left so much average material on emancipation when old prince (or warners) would have shaved half that off?

That's a good point to mention the format as lead to make it fit on both sides with regard to the one disc albums.

TrivialPursuit said:

I'd say this is about perspective. We know the albums as they are. For years, decades, we had no context to anything else. It sounded like Prince just recorded these songs and put them out. We didn't know just how prolific he was, nor what any of that sounded like until more recent times when bootlegging became big business.

.

Chocolate Box dates to 1987. Charade dates to 1988.

johnnieb said:

I agree, and song length, taking 1999 as the example.

I like automatic, does it need to be 9:28 long? no. He culd have put another song on the album, same with Free.

The whole 1999 album would've been better served as a single LP, roughly same tracklist edited down.

Then came the CD age and now streaming, so maybe the change in formats enhanced the delivery. I get people digging a track and figuring "hey why not jam it for 10 minutes it's a great groove," but there's something to be said for leaving the audience wanting more and none of the tracks on this have ever given me that. It's why I can never rank it in my Top 5 whatever, each track is like more than enough plus bonus content. It's a stack of pancakes in album form.

1999 has gotta be some kind of record for the one double album in history that rarely has people champing at the bit to make "fit this double album to a single album length", however. Again, maybe enhanced with the change in formats.

[Edited 10/6/23 6:43am]

bizzie said:

Defo food for thought- maybe it's just because we are used to hearing the albums as they are - so we automatically think that's the best tracklist. Let's say Moonbeam Levels was in place of Free or Horny Pony instead of Gett Off - we probably would think it was fine - People would say "Horny Pony fits the album much better, I'm glad Gett Off was just a DJ only club banger"

bizzie said:

TrivialPursuit said:

I'd say this is about perspective. We know the albums as they are. For years, decades, we had no context to anything else. It sounded like Prince just recorded these songs and put them out. We didn't know just how prolific he was, nor what any of that sounded like until more recent times when bootlegging became big business.

.

Chocolate Box dates to 1987. Charade dates to 1988.

Not going to argue with you about this. I said what I said. I never said bootlegging wasn't a thing. Clearly it has been before Prince ever showed up. I said "became big business." Don't be obtuse.

Krid said:

With a lot of the bootlegs we all heard before and new material surfacing on the SDEs, I think Prince at that times was fantastic to choose the "right" songs for his albums.

There are great songs which were not released at the times, but I really think they would not have made the albums better - in terms of song quality and flow.

I know we are talking about absolute master works with 1999, PR and SOTT - so yes, it is hard to have songs being better than the released ones.

Let's wait and see about the D&P SDE - this album while commercially great was not a "master work" in my opinion - so I am curious to see if the outtakes maybe are better than the original featured songs... but the two released ones Alice and Get Blue don't really rock my boat...

I know there are some orgers out here that think real diamonds were left off the official releases (Electric Intercourse / Possessed / Purple Music / Moonbeam Levels / Train... to name just a few) - but I don't think these songs would have made the albums better. Different, but not better...

DISCUSS !!!

.

I agree with this take.

.

Some of it is going to come down to personal taste - everyone is bound to have some outtakes they prefer to a particular album track.

.

But by and large, based on the songs that have emerged (whether over the years or on these over-the-top deluxe editions) he was impeccable in his crafting of final album track lists.

.

I could go on, but there wouldn't be much point. I got into an outright argument about this with a friend. There's no right or wrong, except to say that as the creator of the work, Prince's decisions were the right ones. Even if someone doesn't like "The Arms of Orion" (I love it) and would prefer "Dance With the Devil" or something. Even if someone doesn't like "Jughead" (I like the groove). Or when people say they'd rather have more Kirstie Alley on 'Symbol' than "I Wanna Melt With U."

Llistening to the SDEs of 1999 and SOTT, I understand why some songs weren´t included. For us, fans, it´s cool to listen to them because of the process of the album, but not great songs.

.

Having said that, in some cases, I don´t think he made the best choices. To me, the best example is The Gold Experience. I love that album, and I feel frustrated everytime I think songs like Days of Wild, The Ride and Interactive were shelved, while others like We March and Shy or 319 were there (cool songs, but I think Gold would have been a lot better with those outtakes)

TrivialPursuit said:

I do think "Moonbeam Levels" deserved a spot somewhere. As did "Old Friends 4 Sale/All My Dreams." And not just on some compilation of random ass tracks.

Yes! "Moonbeam Levels", tome, would have fit perfectly on ARWIAD due to its psychedelic theme and musicality.
But I'm just glad he created it. It's a gem.

It's kind of insane that "Power Fantastic" got relegated to the tail end of The Hits/The B-Sides instead of being put on a proper album. That's one of the greatest and most evocative songs he ever recorded.

bozojones said:

It's kind of insane that "Power Fantastic" got relegated to the tail end of The Hits/The B-Sides instead of being put on a proper album. That's one of the greatest and most evocative songs he ever recorded.

But where does something so unique and interesting like "Power Fantastic" belong? On what record? It almost feels like it could've' been some weird ethereal music in Under The Cherry Moon.

I suppose it would've had its place on Dream Factory had it survived that. But, it also could've at least been a b-side for "Sign O the Times," or "I Could Never Take The Place Of Your Man."

Frankly, "Adore" should've been a single, and PF would be the B-side.

"Power Fantatstic" should've been on an album with only Prince, Lisa & Wendy music.

An album with just the three of them (plus some purple guests of course), and with the same title... the opening track even. A sort of intimate pure album.

Nothing funky, just tracks like those three souls knew how to create them.

A simple 8 track album. Now that would've been marvelous.

bozojones said:

TrivialPursuit said:

I'd say this is about perspective. We know the albums as they are. For years, decades, we had no context to anything else. It sounded like Prince just recorded these songs and put them out. We didn't know just how prolific he was, nor what any of that sounded like until more recent times when bootlegging became big business. Even more so with the onset of Napster, Kazaa, etc.

I do think "Moonbeam Levels" deserved a spot somewhere. As did "Old Friends 4 Sale/All My Dreams." And not just on some compilation of random ass tracks.

In general, I'd say most times they were correct decisions. Prince wasn't some flighty musician who just threw shit together. He very well understood business, cohesion, etc for an album and its pending promotional campaign. So yes, most times he chose the right materal. But there is almost always one track I could do without on an album. Stuff like "The Ladder," "Life Can Be So Nice," "Slow Love" or "IT," "When 2 R In Love" as examples - all are fine tracks, but could there be something a bit better in there? Certainly.

That's an important point as well. It's easy to say "(insert album) couldn't have worked with any other tracklist, it's perfect as is" when you've listened to that specific tracklisting for decades because Prince chose to release it that way. If 1999 had come out with "Moonbeam Levels" instead of "Free", those same people would say the same thing now and talk about how "Free" was left on the cutting room floor for a reason.

This!

For me, anything between 1978 and 1988 is untouchable. Of course I'd prefer this or that or whatever, but every piece is there for a reason, even if it's just a stepping stone to go somewhere else.

I wouldn't dare to mess with the track list to any Beatles or Stevie Wonder album (from the 70s), and I see Prince's output the same way. They are masterpieces as they are.

Do I prefer 'Moonbeam Levels' over 'Free'? Mostly yes, but I wouldn't touch a thing off 1999 because it's a work of art in its own, as it is.

Things got twisted over time, and we reached a point in the 90s when Prince himself hijacked his own concepts. Perfect examples of this are 'Come' and 'The Gold Experience'. Both album went through several known changes of configuration, and, in my opinion, ended up loosing their mojo by the time they were finally released. But maybe that's another story more linked to his feud with WB around the time...

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

GustavoRibas said:

in some cases, I don´t think he made the best choices. To me, the best example is The Gold Experience. I love that album, and I feel frustrated everytime I think songs like Days of Wild, The Ride and Interactive were shelved, while others like We March and Shy or 319 were there (cool songs, but I think Gold would have been a lot better with those outtakes)

yeah,TGE was a unique situtation.We got to hear many of the tracks all throughout 1994, months before the album was finally released.We knew about songs like "Days Of Wild",
"Interactive","Ripopgodazzipa","Acknowledge Me",etc....so when the album finally came out,there was some disappointment among fans because of the many great tunes that were left behind.All in all,I think that was a fun,exciting era.

Vannormal said:

SoulAlive said:

GustavoRibas said:

in some cases, I don´t think he made the best choices. To me, the best example is The Gold Experience. I love that album, and I feel frustrated everytime I think songs like Days of Wild, The Ride and Interactive were shelved, while others like We March and Shy or 319 were there (cool songs, but I think Gold would have been a lot better with those outtakes)

yeah,TGE was a unique situtation.We got to hear many of the tracks all throughout 1994, months before the album was finally released.We knew about songs like "Days Of Wild",
"Interactive","Ripopgodazzipa","Acknowledge Me",etc....so when the album finally came out,there was some disappointment among fans because of the many great tunes that were left behind.All in all,I think that was a fun,exciting era.

.

- Yes, and some songs were played live so much that they became ´90s classics´ to us fans, like Days of Wild and The Ride. So, it´s strange that they never appeared on a regular studio album.

[Edited 10/7/23 17:09pm]