Did we overrate Prince the musician?

olb99 said:

The most mentioned people in the Miles Davis Autobiography

https://www.reddit.com/r/...les_davis/

.

Prince is 24th. I don't know what it means, but it certainly means something.

In the book Miles refers to Sting as a motherfucker. Which is a compliment as he liked his melodies.

The world's problems like climate change can only be solved through strategic long-term thinking, not expediency. In other words all the govts. need sacking!

If you can add value to someone's life then why not. Especially if it colors their days...

- E-mail - orgNote -

Reply #61 posted 04/05/21 7:56am

Germanegro

avatar

MD like many musicians was an experimentalist who dabbled in many sounds and worked among different structures of jazz.

Of course he had an ear for popular music and how to tap into the sound. It is all inspiration for these guys, either for or against (lol).

biggrin

thebanishedone said:

olb99 said:

The most mentioned people in the Miles Davis Autobiography

https://www.reddit.com/r/...les_davis/

.

Prince is 24th. I don't know what it means, but it certainly means something.

remember Miles was getting older and Prince was the sound of new.I think Miles liked innovation when it comes to Prince.Miles was a fan of 1999 album.I doubt Miles was impressed with Prince as a player of any instrument.yes i know Miles said that Prince plays piano like an average 60s jazz piano player

but ever since Miles played on a rock festival and witnessed Sly And The Family Stone and crowd reaction Miles wanted some of that.Jazz crowd at the time was shrinking ,thats why jazz cats started incorporating sounds from the street rock and funk .Chic Corea and his Return To Forever were counting on rock crowd.Miles as well .So Miles wanted to be more hip to the younger music lovers,thats why he was intrigued by Prince,same way he was with Jimi Hendrix after seeing Montrey pop festival 1967 documentary in theatre with John Mclaughlin.

thats why last Miles album was a mix of hip hop and jazz,cause Miles was always listening to the sounds of the street.

- E-mail - orgNote -

Reply #62 posted 04/05/21 8:10am

thebanishedone

avatar

fortuneandserendipity said:

thebanishedone said:

Stevie was not a jazz musician ,but he could be if he wanted and he was very good in doing jazz,jazz fusion check this out

this is a serious fusion composition by Stevie Wonder and it's a jazz fusion on a much higher level than anything Prince ever did in that genre,here it is : https://www.youtube.com/w...&t=74s

or check this 1 from Secret Life Of Plants ,this is some killer jazz here

https://www.youtube.com/w...tuNzEinwGg

You also have videos of Stevie Wonder killing it on Giant Steps and a video of him playing with Chic Corea Spain and it's shocking that Stevie was not any worse than Chic on Piano.

I'm sorry but noby can touch Stevie in popular music not even Prince

I'm sorry but that Venus' Flytrap and bug thingy is rubbish. It's not even jazz. A lot of notes fall on the beat. Elevator music gone wrong. And that Contusion track sounds like Frank Zappa with his most commercial take on jazz. It's 3/5 music and not groundbreaking at all.

If you want to hear quality fusion music, Zappa's The Grand Wazoo would be the best place to start. A lot of the music there is superior to contusion and more complex to boot. A lot of people go to Miles for their fusion but I'm not nearly familiar enough with that period. Bitches' Brew is the iconic album from that period.

fusion for Stevie not fusion for the actual fusion artists,how about this? : https://www.youtube.com/w...jOYscEN6Qc

- E-mail - orgNote -

Reply #63 posted 04/05/21 8:33am

KlyphIsBackAga
in

avatar

Remember when Michael Jordan, arguably the greatest basketball player ever, went and decided he was gonna play baseball, well because he liked baseball? And he sucked! I mean, he was probably better than some high school player, but despite his obvious natural athletic ability he just wasn't a great baseball player. He couldn't just translate something he was "born" to do into something he "liked" doing. Does that mean he wasn't an amazing basketball player? Hell no! Was he an "overrated" basketball player? HA! Are you crazy? No, it means he was a bad baseball player. End of story.

- E-mail - orgNote -

Reply #64 posted 04/05/21 8:35am

SantanaMaitrey a	olb99 said: The most mentioned people in the Miles Davis Autobiography https://www.reddit.com/r/...les_davis/ . Prince is 24th. I don't know what it means, but it certainly means something. I didn't see Betty. Dunno what that means, but it certainly means something! If you take any of this seriously, you're a bigger fool than I am.
	- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator

Reply #65 posted 04/05/21 8:42am

soladeo1	All of his former engineers, some of them who've worked with the best in the industry, folks like Susan Rogers and Scottie, are pretty much in total unison that Prince was sort of God-like as a musician. They were all in awe of him.
	- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator

Reply #66 posted 04/05/21 8:56am

thebanishedone said:

fusion for Stevie not fusion for the actual fusion artists,how about this? : https://www.youtube.com/w...jOYscEN6Qc

Yeah, that's proper fusion.

I can't help feel you're overrating Stevie saying P is not at his level. He did 3 brilliant albums to my ears, Fulfillingness' First Finale, Innervisions and Songs in the Key of Life. None of them are perfect. Talking Book has 3 letdown tracks. There are only 3 great songs on The Secret Life of Plants. Yes, there's argument to be had, he was the best solo artist mid 70s. But the 70s was also the decade that spawned more great artists than any other era.

- E-mail - orgNote -

Reply #67 posted 04/05/21 9:53am

LoveGalore	I think what's overrated are people's expectations of what limits even geniuses have.
	- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator

Reply #68 posted 04/05/21 3:21pm

My post went largely ignored but I'll say it again. People often conflate complexity with excellence and/or quality and/or talent. In music, harmonic complexity and all that... which is all well and good. But for me, out of everything I've heard I'm most impressed by simple yet powerful ideas. James Brown cutting down his band's progressions to sometimes just one chord and playing that idea over and over. Miles Davis playing one single, perfectly placed note. Prince leaving just the right amount of space before the cymbal crash in head.

That's stuff that can't be taught. A lot of things you can study and master over years of hard work and dedication. But what do we call that stuff you can't teach. What do we call Prince's innate feel for what is going to sound and make us feel good?

To me that's the real genius, when people pull from a well that we don't have access to.

- E-mail - orgNote -

Reply #69 posted 04/05/21 3:25pm

But then again, I love funk music. It's what my ears tune to. As much as I love the Beatles, when I hear a song like devotion by EWF my jaw is on the floor, it does something to my body. My favorite Beatles songs are just really, really good songs. But the experience of listening to them will never be Forever in my life off For Those of u on valium, or it's gonna be a beautiful night from the sott tour. They transport me out of my body.

- E-mail - orgNote -

Reply #70 posted 04/05/21 3:37pm

MoodyBlumes

"Hell, he's got it all! Multi-musician with a damned vengeance! As a drummer he can hold it down, you know what I'm sayin'? There's not many cats can nail it tight what with current technology makin' most drummers damn near obsolete. As a guitar player... he puts out! Plus, he's a goddamn great piano player. Matter of fact, he's about as good as they get, and I've worked with the best, I should know!" - Miles on Miles, Interviews and Encounters with Miles Davis

- E-mail - orgNote -

Reply #71 posted 04/05/21 3:39pm

jdcxc

masaba said:
My post went largely ignored but I'll say it again. People often conflate complexity with excellence and/or quality and/or talent. In music, harmonic complexity and all that... which is all well and good. But for me, out of everything I've heard I'm most impressed by simple yet powerful ideas. James Brown cutting down his band's progressions to sometimes just one chord and playing that idea over and over. Miles Davis playing one single, perfectly placed note. Prince leaving just the right amount of space before the cymbal crash in head. That's stuff that can't be taught. A lot of things you can study and master over years of hard work and dedication. But what do we call that stuff you can't teach. What do we call Prince's innate feel for what is going to sound and make us feel good? To me that's the real genius, when people pull from a well that we don't have access to.

Perfect...well put. And I will say this again...there is a reason why so many Jazz Greats appreciate Prince's natural gifts, innate Funk and songwriting craft. Of course P is not Coltrane...thats a ridiculous comparison.

- E-mail - orgNote -

Reply #72 posted 04/05/21 3:54pm

MoodyBlumes

jdcxc said:

masaba said:
My post went largely ignored but I'll say it again. People often conflate complexity with excellence and/or quality and/or talent. In music, harmonic complexity and all that... which is all well and good. But for me, out of everything I've heard I'm most impressed by simple yet powerful ideas. James Brown cutting down his band's progressions to sometimes just one chord and playing that idea over and over. Miles Davis playing one single, perfectly placed note. Prince leaving just the right amount of space before the cymbal crash in head. That's stuff that can't be taught. A lot of things you can study and master over years of hard work and dedication. But what do we call that stuff you can't teach. What do we call Prince's innate feel for what is going to sound and make us feel good? To me that's the real genius, when people pull from a well that we don't have access to.

Perfect...well put. And I will say this again...there is a reason why so many Jazz Greats appreciate Prince's natural gifts, innate Funk and songwriting craft. Of course P is not Coltrane...thats a ridiculous comparison.

Prince worked 20 hours a day on those natural gifts. Prince wasn't Coltrane, and Picasso wasn't Van Gogh.

- E-mail - orgNote -

Reply #73 posted 04/05/21 4:01pm

jdcxc

MoodyBlumes said:

"Hell, he's got it all! Multi-musician with a damned vengeance! As a drummer he can hold it down, you know what I'm sayin'? There's not many cats can nail it tight what with current technology makin' most drummers damn near obsolete. As a guitar player... he puts out! Plus, he's a goddamn great piano player. Matter of fact, he's about as good as they get, and I've worked with the best, I should know!" - Miles on Miles, Interviews and Encounters with Miles Davis

This Miles quote says it ALL.

- E-mail - orgNote -

Reply #74 posted 04/05/21 4:17pm

MoodyBlumes said:

jdcxc said:

Perfect...well put. And I will say this again...there is a reason why so many Jazz Greats appreciate Prince's natural gifts, innate Funk and songwriting craft. Of course P is not Coltrane...thats a ridiculous comparison.

Prince worked 20 hours a day on those natural gifts. Prince wasn't Coltrane, and Picasso wasn't Van Gogh.

Of course he did. You don't get anywhere without the work. And P put in almost more work than anybody.

- E-mail - orgNote -

Reply #75 posted 04/05/21 4:18pm

I love Prince though man, this dude is my favorite. Really glad there's a place I can come and nerd out about him and nobody thinks I'm weird. I'm usually just annoying the shit out of my roommate and fam. This is my safe space lol.

- E-mail - orgNote -

Reply #76 posted 04/05/21 5:05pm

williamb610	Comment snipped - l'ange bleu moderator Overrate a guy who taught himself how to play music? Really? Multiple instruments really well! Really?
	- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator

Reply #77 posted 04/05/21 6:02pm

ThatWhiteDude

avatar

masaba said:

I love Prince though man, this dude is my favorite. Really glad there's a place I can come and nerd out about him and nobody thinks I'm weird. I'm usually just annoying the shit out of my roommate and fam. This is my safe space lol.

I'm in this post and I don't like it lol

- E-mail - orgNote -

Reply #78 posted 04/05/21 6:53pm

Margot	There are many musicians who are talented technically but do no not transmit the feeling Prince did-he was an electric player and performer. He made sure he was connecting @ times I'm thinking Todd Rundgren, Stevie Wonder, Paul McCartney...
	- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator

Reply #79 posted 04/05/21 8:45pm

1nonly

avatar

Well, this is being extremely nit-picky, but one cannot overrate anything, unless they intentionally boast more than they feel, making their statement essentially a lie. I mean, how can you overrate something you feel to be true?!?

I can classify someone else's statement as being overrating of something, but I myself cannot overrate or underrate anything if I am speaking my personal truthful beliefs and/or opinions about that thing.

Again...very nip-picky, I know, but thus is the way of the ORG, right?

Walking alone in the dark, I see nothing u see
I can be in a park, or flying in the…in the deep sea
I wish u’d hold my hand; then everything could b
There’s nothing strange, we’re not deranged
We only want everyday 2 b a Cosmic Day

- E-mail - orgNote -

Reply #80 posted 04/05/21 10:53pm

Friscokid21

Personally, I still believe Prince is severely underrated as a musician, whose prowess is recognized by those in the professional capacity or the fan base who have witnessed/experienced in depth, his output and growth, over the course of his career. One parable I frequently use in this particular subject, is obviously Jimi Hendrix. Respected by fans and peers alike, but also criticized by those who argue that Hendrix, despite his virtuosity, his keen sense of feel, obvious skill and technique, was not a complete master of his instrument due to his lack of classical training, and "sloppy" playing. However, Hendrix, as well as Prince, (Hendrix being on the natutral flowing loose liberal end of the spectrum, while Prince resided on the hard driven endlessly working towards perfection of his sound end of the spectrum) both existed on the same plane of musicality and musicianship, effectively tuning themselves, in their own unique way, into a conduit through which melodies, harmonies, rhythms and beats were channeled and transposed by the filter of their soul, as a gift to their audience. I believe the objective of any musician is ultimately find a common point of relativity with others through their songs, a task in which both Hendrix and Prince, as well as many others throughout history, have accomplished in such a profound fashion that the people of the world to this very day is still reeling and relishing in the impact these minstrels have had upon dramatically shaping our lives, molding our cultures, and altering our perceptions.
Now I'm unaware if Prince was able to read music in the classical sense, but he obviously understood the emotional context of musical progression that reached the hearts, minds and bodies of millions across the world and made them laugh, sing, dance and cry in unison with one another, the physical concept of concisely articulating his expressions across various instrumentation, the mental capacity in constructing the orchestration, arrangement, and engineering his works, all while demonstrating an astute acumen for the business side of his endeavors which solidified himself as a pioneer in the music industry.

All these aspects are that of one man, who rivaled the biggest stars of our time. Stars who had a team of record executives, marketing departments,, songwriters, producers, sound engineers, studio musicians, lyricists, choreographers etc.
Now, take all that, and realize that Prince not only did these things for himself. He also wrote complete albums/ complete songs for many of the other big names in music, (like Celene Dion, Cindy Lauper and Stevie Nicks) or founded and produced new talent (like The Time or Sheila E).

It is my personal opinion that Prince will hold significant relevance for MANY MANY years to come and it is my suggestion to any one who may feel Prince (or Hendrix for that matter) are overrated as musicians, to please put aside any preconceived judgements which may exist inside you, and give these Titans of Music an honest, open, faithful experience of the collective works they have left behind as sonic auditory gospels for humanity to utilize and learn from on our venture through this Lesson of Life. I guarantee, if one takes this journey with sincerity, at the very least, they will come away with: A new found respect and appreciation for The Artist, as a human, musician, & artist, they will have a few new favorite songs to enjoy and share with friends, family/loved ones, and lastly, but most hopefully & ideally, they will come away a new perspective on Life, that will stick with for Life

- E-mail - orgNote -

Reply #81 posted 04/05/21 10:58pm

Friscokid21	olb99 said: The most mentioned people in the Miles Davis Autobiography https://www.reddit.com/r/...les_davis/ . Prince is 24th. I don't know what it means, but it certainly means something. Exactly. How does the saying go? "Game recognize Game."
	- E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator

Reply #82 posted 04/06/21 12:59am

thebanishedone

avatar

williamb610 said:

Comment snipped - l'ange bleu moderator

Overrate a guy who taught himself how to play music? Really? Multiple instruments really well! Really?

Off topic comment deleted - l'ange bleu, moderator

- E-mail - orgNote -

Reply #83 posted 04/06/21 7:18am

Margot said:

There are many musicians who are talented technically but do no not transmit the feeling Prince did-he was an electric player and performer. He made sure he was connecting @ times

I'm thinking Todd Rundgren, Stevie Wonder, Paul McCartney...

Just listening to Todd's The Individualist right now. And I think it's his first wobble since Initiation... maybe he's allergic to letter I's. Aye. As a balladeer he was the equal of Prince but I guess you could say the same about Stevie Wonder, who like Todd knows how to transmit feeling for slower songs.

Comment deleted - l'ange bleu - moderator

So yes, as more gems are uncovered it will become more clear P was underrated, not overrated. As one example, at time he passed, I had no idea he could play the guitar so well in 1986. Adonis & Bathsheba, Wally, Cosmic Day... the list goes on.

- E-mail - orgNote -

Reply #84 posted 04/06/21 11:34am

xpertluva

avatar

thebanishedone said:
RighteousOne said:
Well, what did you expect. Some kind of reasoned response? You do know you put this question up on a Prince fan site, right? To people who spend much of their lives here. It was never going to be objective was it? They don’t do objective here.
At least you got my point.I love Prince but on facebook,org and utub i have seen unrealistic adoration coming from fans .under the comment section of 1977 Instrumental Jazz Funk recording of Prince somebody wrote :i wonder how Prince would sound playing with Herbie Hancock.on the org there was a thread "The night Prince changed world of guitar" implaying that Prince changed the world of rock guitar solo with his playing on While My Guitar Gently Weeps.So all those Prince is amazing on the instruments he plays.He was very good ,maybe amazing at the way he presented himself but was he amazing on any instrument ?

You've had better luck than me. Some of the Prince groups I've checked out on facebook barely talk about his music. They post pictures and talk about how gorgeous he was or debate whether Vanity was the love of his life. lol

- E-mail - orgNote -

Reply #85 posted 04/06/21 12:31pm

flipper123

As Prince fans? probably.

Do the general public? Absolutely not.

Personally, I think his rhythm guitar and feel/timing is up there with anyone.

His Piano, bass, drums etc is decent but not up with any best for me.

His guitar soloing, whilst not technically amazing, is up there in terms of feel, soul, sense of space etc.

All very subjective of course, but give me Prince over any Yngwie Malmsteen any day of the week.

The main thing for me is that he is one of the first musicians I listened to that made me want to learn an instrument. I loved a lot of music before Prince, but none made me want to do that.

- E-mail - orgNote -

Reply #86 posted 04/06/21 5:03pm

Margot

xpertluva said:

thebanishedone said:
RighteousOne said: At least you got my point.I love Prince but on facebook,org and utub i have seen unrealistic adoration coming from fans .under the comment section of 1977 Instrumental Jazz Funk recording of Prince somebody wrote :i wonder how Prince would sound playing with Herbie Hancock.on the org there was a thread "The night Prince changed world of guitar" implaying that Prince changed the world of rock guitar solo with his playing on While My Guitar Gently Weeps.So all those Prince is amazing on the instruments he plays.He was very good ,maybe amazing at the way he presented himself but was he amazing on any instrument ?

You've had better luck than me. Some of the Prince groups I've checked out on facebook barely talk about his music. They post pictures and talk about how gorgeous he was or debate whether Vanity was the love of his life.

Same.

- E-mail - orgNote -

Reply #87 posted 04/06/21 6:03pm

lurker316

avatar

Prince may not be the absolute best at any one instrument, but he was great at multiple instruments... and that, in and of itself, is amazing. To become great at any one instrument you have to dedicate your life to it. The fact that Prince was able to master so many instruments, while also mastering the arts of composing, arranging, producing and performing, is remarkable.

In other words, while there are lots of other people in Prince's league as a guitarist, are any of those people also great bassists, pianists, drummers, etc?

- E-mail - orgNote -

Reply #88 posted 04/06/21 6:28pm

lurker316 said:

Prince may not be the absolute best at any one instrument, but he was great at multiple instruments... and that, in and of itself, is amazing. To become great at any one instrument you have to dedicate your life to it. The fact that Prince was able to master so many instruments, while also mastering the arts of composing, arranging, producing and performing, is remarkable.

In other words, while there are lots of other people in Prince's league as a guitarist, are any of those people also great bassists, pianists, drummers, etc?>

You have a point https://www.youtube.com/w...-OEpmKeltU

- E-mail - orgNote -