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Thread started 04/03/21 5:22pm

thebanishedone

Did we overrate Prince the musician?

I was one of the most annoying orgers making countless threads about how great Prince is on guitar.I thought those who don't share my view just don't get it.but things change and as i started paying more attention to some more proficient musicians i came to a realisation that Prince as a musician is way too overrated.i see people saying :imagine Prince and Herbie Hancock playing together or i see a topic here "the day Prince changed the world of electric guitar.Prince did push the envelope in the realm of pop music but every attempt he did outside of pop wss far from good.Prince's jazz projects are like kindergarden jazx compared to Mahavishnu Orchestra or Return To Forever.Prince is a good rhythm guitar player but as a soloist his playing is average or even bellow.his piano playing is overhyped and in reality i"ve seen him playing live piano parts that wete under rehearsed.I love Prince and his music but it's hard for me to pretend that he is amazing on guitar bass piano and drums when he is just average even to pop music standards.
[Edited 4/3/21 17:23pm]
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Reply #1 posted 04/03/21 5:41pm

fortuneandsere
ndipity

No.

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Reply #2 posted 04/03/21 6:20pm

PennyPurple

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No, we did not.

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Reply #3 posted 04/03/21 6:31pm

Margot

I think you are comparing Prince who played numerous instuments w/ folks who played one.

He was also a showman who knew what moved audiences. He applied drama and some showiness that that may have impressed those who are not musicians.

[Edited 4/3/21 18:34pm]

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Reply #4 posted 04/03/21 9:09pm

leadline

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Not even close

"You always get the dream that you deserve, from what you value the most" -Prince 2013
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Reply #5 posted 04/03/21 11:36pm

masaba

I listen to a lot of music and understand Prince's limits instrumentally, and I disagree completely. The more you listen to music, the more you realize the most difficult thing to teach is writing and playing in a way that moves people. You can learn all the techniques in the world, but that doesn't mean you'll be able to make people laugh or smile or cry with your instrument.

Prince was blessed with an incredible gift to be able to do that. A great analogy is in literature. Look at a book like Things Fall Apart, or the Ernest Hemingway's work. The language is simple and straight forward. But it's no less elegant and impactful than much more complicated works. You could learn every technique in the book and work on your craft for your whole life, but the chances of you being able to move people in the same way as the aforementioned simple prose is slim to none.

Prince played his guitar exactly how he wanted to play it and it accomplished exactly what he wanted it to accomplish. And for that I believe he was a fantastic guitar player. He could play the shit out of that thing.

But depends on what your looking for at the end of the day. Comparing Prince to John McLaughlin in an attempt to diminish Prince is a little ridiculous in my mind. There's no point to those comparisons.

And also it's disrespectful to call him an average to below average pop guitarist. Not only is that meaningless nonsense, it's disrespectful to the legacy of P. Fuck outta here with that.
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Reply #6 posted 04/04/21 12:19am

langebleu

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moderator

Have they moved April Fool's day this year?

Then again, I'm sure that, several years after the crucifixion, there was also the occasional Palestinian saying - 'T'hat Jesus, he was a great crowd pleaser but, when it came to conjuring tricks, I'd give him a 4 out of 10 at best. Compared to some of the latest street healers .... he had a lot to learn".

In fact, only last week I was chatting with a couple of scientist friends and we were pretty much agreed that, as much as Einstein was a lovely guy who had an idea or two, when it came to truly DEEP thinking, he only merited a C- on a good day.

ALT+PLS+RTN: Pure as a pane of ice. It's a gift.
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Reply #7 posted 04/04/21 12:43am

SantanaMaitrey
a

Overrating your favourite artist, that's the whole point of being a fan! I was listening to a piano & mic show on YouTube and in the comments somebody said that Prince was the only artist who could rock a crowd with only one instrument. Of course he wasn't, there's plenty of singer-songwriters who can do the same with an acoustic guitar. And then there's fans going on about him playing 27 instruments. If you count all the instruments Lister on For You, you don't make it to 27. So yes, there is a lot of hype about him being this super-musician.
And of course you can always find someone who is a better guitar player or a better piano player than Prince and I agree that his jazz projects aren't great, it just isn't his genre. But the way Prince was able to be the complete rock star, instrumentalist, singer, songwriter, producer, band leader... He was unique.
[Edited 4/4/21 0:45am]
[Edited 4/4/21 0:48am]
O tempora! O mores!
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Reply #8 posted 04/04/21 1:24am

thebanishedone

langebleu said:

Have they moved April Fool's day this year?

Then again, I'm sure that, several years after the crucifixion, there was also the occasional Palestinian saying - 'T'hat Jesus, he was a great crowd pleaser but, when it came to conjuring tricks, I'd give him a 4 out of 10 at best. Compared to some of the latest street healers .... he had a lot to learn".

In fact, only last week I was chatting with a couple of scientist friends and we were pretty much agreed that, as much as Einstein was a lovely guy who had an idea or two, when it came to truly DEEP thinking, he only merited a C- on a good day.

ok i get it,you want to showcase your intelligence

with adding some irony but all you actually did show is that you can't accept when somebody questions Prince as a musician.

I started this topic with intent to have a objective disscussion but what should i expect when 1 of the moderators give answer like this??? What i can advise to you is maybe you should try listening to other musicians and than you will see how limited Prince as a musician was.

Maybe you shoould check some serious guitar players like https://www.youtube.com/w...0XNBq-vPXo and maybe see how limited Prince was as a guitarist. And his fusion was a joke,try some Mahavishnu Orchestra or Return To Forever to hear how it should b executed.

Prince had a great way of presenting him,acting like he is on a mission,

he had moves and facial gestures that suggested you he is doing something out of this world.But his tonal quality was inferior compared to some other guitar greats,his vibrato too fast,his delivery often nervous.he was a good rhythm guitarist/

As a pianist i think he had bigger harmonic vocabulary but Stevie Wonder he ain't.Prince was great in the realm of pop music,but outside of that he was not intimidating as a musician at all and i love Prince but unlke some of you i'm not affraid to be objective.And you Langebau this is not the first time you give me some arrogant ironic answer.What i can advise you is to avoid replaying to my topics in this manner cause who is gonna follow the org rules if the moderator is on the verge of insulting people.if u have nothing smart to say just pass it.

[Edited 4/4/21 1:25am]

[Edited 4/4/21 1:52am]

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Reply #9 posted 04/04/21 2:33am

milesb

Prince the musician seems amazingly talented to me. I can't think of anyone else in popular music who could play as many instruments as him to such a high standard. If you are asking if we, as in the Prince fans, overrated him. Possibly so. But then we are his fans. I think non fans probably under rated him as a musician. Certainly when I showed non fans examples of him playing bass, for example, they didn't know he could do that and were impressed. Ditto for his guitar and piano skills.

My password is what
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Reply #10 posted 04/04/21 2:44am

thebanishedone

milesb said:

Prince the musician seems amazingly talented to me. I can't think of anyone else in popular music who could play as many instruments as him to such a high standard. If you are asking if we, as in the Prince fans, overrated him. Possibly so. But then we are his fans. I think non fans probably under rated him as a musician. Certainly when I showed non fans examples of him playing bass, for example, they didn't know he could do that and were impressed. Ditto for his guitar and piano skills.

Stevie Wonder is a prolific pianist,drummer,harmonica player,i've seen a video of Stevie improvising on Spain together with Chic Corea and Stevie wasn't inferior on piano compared to Chic .He was keeping up with Stevie

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Reply #11 posted 04/04/21 8:01am

ThatWhiteDude

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No. I'd even say he's underrated for the most part. He was leagues above anyone in his generation.

"Like books and BLACK LIVES, Albums still MATTER."

Poppys, Shanon319, Number23, Kares. #lifttheban
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Reply #12 posted 04/04/21 8:08am

ufoclub

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The thing is if a musician can play technically well, but that "playing" does not activate any kind of new energy or momentum... or illicit an emotion or thought, then it's really weak musicianship.

In other words they aren't "playing", they are punchcarding like a machine programmed to learned theory. And as Yoda said... "That is why you fail."

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Reply #13 posted 04/04/21 8:35am

kingricefan

I never overrated Prince at any time- here's a musician who laid down the entire drum track of a song first, then added the piano or organ, then added guitars (bass, rhythm, etc., playing each of them himself), then added horns (using keyboards to create the sounds early on), then added main vocals, then added background vocals (singing each part himself), then added other embellishments such as finger cymbals, etc., mixed this brew all together to create the song he had in his head and moved on to the next song. I may have the flow of exactly how he created the songs wrong but you get my gist. He pretty much did it all himself (mostly). And was able to play each instrument in the songs to his best ability. It might not be the greatest playing in the world but he did it himself (mostly). There's not many of his peers that can do that. That is why I consider him to be one of the greatest musicians ever.

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Reply #14 posted 04/04/21 8:42am

thebanishedone

ufoclub said:

The thing is if a musician can play technically well, but that "playing" does not activate any kind of new energy or momentum... or illicit an emotion or thought, then it's really weak musicianship.

In other words they aren't "playing", they are punchcarding like a machine programmed to learned theory. And as Yoda said... "That is why you fail."


I agree i don't like that kind of souless musicians but at the same time you have a combination of both.Prince was amazing,he redefined pop music but i have a feeling that Prince felt constrained by that format,yet him going out of the format gave half baked results.Kamasutra,his jazz fusion stuff .i mean i applaud him for being brave enough to venture outside his comfort zone but it seemed he took it for granted. For example Prince is amazing at present certain vibes coming out of his guitar.His technique on guitar was much better and more interesting than Eric Clapton for example but Eric had more nuances in his tone,more refined.Prince was a great rock guitar player but not as good as some other people who choose to spend more time with the instrument.I'm not saying Prince sucks but i wanna say that we did overrate him as a musician.He didn't bring nothing new as a guitar and keyboard player.Yes he played better than most of people who were presenting themself as multi instrumentalists(George Michael,Lenny Kravitz,Paul Mccartney) but what he played was constricred by the rules of popular music.
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Reply #15 posted 04/04/21 8:44am

thebanishedone

kingricefan said:

I never overrated Prince at any time- here's a musician who laid down the entire drum track of a song first, then added the piano or organ, then added guitars (bass, rhythm, etc., playing each of them himself), then added horns (using keyboards to create the sounds early on), then added main vocals, then added background vocals (singing each part himself), then added other embellishments such as finger cymbals, etc., mixed this brew all together to create the song he had in his head and moved on to the next song. I may have the flow of exactly how he created the songs wrong but you get my gist. He pretty much did it all himself (mostly). And was able to play each instrument in the songs to his best ability. It might not be the greatest playing in the world but he did it himself (mostly). There's not many of his peers that can do that. That is why I consider him to be one of the greatest musicians ever.

I agree .what i want to say yes he was able to build a house alone but i'm not sure it was the best looking house like some seem to believe smile
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Reply #16 posted 04/04/21 9:19am

Mintchip

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The only thing I object to is your use of “we”. We didn’t do anything, we’re not a unit, and we don’t have to behave like we are. It sounds like “you” got a fancy new music education, which has made you reevaluate princes abilities on instruments. I think that’s cool; there’s always a bigger fish. But if the good faith argument if the OP is that he/she broadened their horizons, and now the rest of us need to adjust our estimations of princes musicianship, that’s pretty laughable on its surface. Your new favorites aren’t going to do shit for me, and your opinion of Picasso isn’t altered because I discovered basquiat.
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Reply #17 posted 04/04/21 9:50am

jdcxc

Comparing genres is always futile. Have u ever heard the weak covers of Prince songs by Jazz artists (Herbie, Nina Simone, etc.)? Jazz artists live in a world that is more harmonically complex and studied. Prince was a genre busting, naturally gifted genius in the realm of James Brown, Stevie, Sly...wud u call them overrated?

And many Jazz musicians appreciate the unique skills and brilliant music of Prince. Ask Miles this question.

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Reply #18 posted 04/04/21 10:44am

thebanishedone

Mintchip said:

The only thing I object to is your use of “we”. We didn’t do anything, we’re not a unit, and we don’t have to behave like we are. It sounds like “you” got a fancy new music education, which has made you reevaluate princes abilities on instruments. I think that’s cool; there’s always a bigger fish. But if the good faith argument if the OP is that he/she broadened their horizons, and now the rest of us need to adjust our estimations of princes musicianship, that’s pretty laughable on its surface. Your new favorites aren’t going to do shit for me, and your opinion of Picasso isn’t altered because I discovered basquiat.

trust me it's not this at all "s that he/she broadened their horizons, and now the rest of us need to adjust our estimations of princes musicianship, that’s pretty laughable

hehe

thatwould be crazy,when i say we i think Prince fans,and it's nmot Prince fans here,it's the stuff i see on facebook groups.

Prince is still 1 of my favourite guitar players and musicians. He was one of the best in the pop music world.he could do all by himself in the studio,but i think people in general hink he is a better musician than he was. he was a great musician and very good at everything he did.but he was not an amazing instrumentalist,he was able to produce amazing bursts of energy and emotions those larger than life moments that are very exciting.

He was the best live performer 1982-1998 imo but he was never on the level of proficiency as players who dedicated their life to that single instrument.That don't mean those big league players are more exciting to watch live,but just in terms of musical ideas,execution key to Prince was simplicity,not sophistication.

I think Prince was more about expression than the actual high musical sophistication.

You know one of the reasons i made this topic is because of what Danny Elfman said that he didn't want to work on Batman with Prince because that would mean he would orchestrate Prince's melodies into something more sophisticated cause thats how pop musicians operate.this is not an exact quote but that's what Danny said.the irony is Danny was a pop musician from an average pop band but he just worked harder to become a serious movie score composer.

[Edited 4/4/21 11:11am]

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Reply #19 posted 04/04/21 10:45am

thebanishedone

jdcxc said:

Comparing genres is always futile. Have u ever heard the weak covers of Prince songs by Jazz artists (Herbie, Nina Simone, etc.)? Jazz artists live in a world that is more harmonically complex and studied. Prince was a genre busting, naturally gifted genius in the realm of James Brown, Stevie, Sly...wud u call them overrated?

And many Jazz musicians appreciate the unique skills and brilliant music of Prince. Ask Miles this question.

i agree some covers are weak but for example Billy Cobham Sign O The Times is killer work

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Reply #20 posted 04/04/21 11:04am

thebanishedone

You know no disrespect to Danny Elfman but i think if Prince

learned how to read music,it would have expended his musical vocabulary to sky as a limit.

Imagine if Prince was traveling on a plane and just spending time not playing but reading scores by other artists. I really believe that as he aged Prince was not happy with the fact that he was doing the same things like 35 years b4 ,playing Raspberry Berret in a concert.When i was a kid i always believed that one day Prince will leave the world of pop and age gracefully in a musical sense. When The Rainbow Kids album got released i was thinking thats it,no way he can go backwards after this.

And it was not my favourite Prince album at all but no matter how much anybody loved it or hated it

it was the sound of future.Not in terms of music that was somewhere between 80s Miles and 70s Funkadelic but the sound,the production was very different,you can see that he polished that album for a while.But with Musicology he went back.it was a rehash ,something he could do in his sleep.

in his defense i do believe if he lived maybe he would do something different, that orchestra replacing guitar solos thing was a very out there aprouch

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Reply #21 posted 04/04/21 12:22pm

masaba

thebanishedone said:

You know no disrespect to Danny Elfman but i think if Prince


learned how to read music,it would have expended his musical vocabulary to sky as a limit.


Imagine if Prince was traveling on a plane and just spending time not playing but reading scores by other artists. I really believe that as he aged Prince was not happy with the fact that he was doing the same things like 35 years b4 ,playing Raspberry Berret in a concert.When i was a kid i always believed that one day Prince will leave the world of pop and age gracefully in a musical sense. When The Rainbow Kids album got released i was thinking thats it,no way he can go backwards after this.


And it was not my favourite Prince album at all but no matter how much anybody loved it or hated it


it was the sound of future.Not in terms of music that was somewhere between 80s Miles and 70s Funkadelic but the sound,the production was very different,you can see that he polished that album for a while.But with Musicology he went back.it was a rehash ,something he could do in his sleep.


in his defense i do believe if he lived maybe he would do something different, that orchestra replacing guitar solos thing was a very out there aprouch

never have expectations of people you don't know
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Reply #22 posted 04/04/21 1:09pm

looby

He played good enough me, and that's all that matters.

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Reply #23 posted 04/04/21 1:42pm

thebanishedone

looby said:

He played good enough me, and that's all that matters.

for me as well,i'm just saying he was the best at his domain,but was not as good outside of it,and he went outside smile

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Reply #24 posted 04/04/21 1:48pm

TrevorAyer

To be fair .. hendrix and eddie van halen wouldn’t sound good in a jazz band either ... prince was great at being prince but break him up into his individual talents and he certainly has his shortcomings.. when his fans deny this yes he is overrated .. but still underrated compared to the pop landscape of any era
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Reply #25 posted 04/04/21 1:55pm

thebanishedone

TrevorAyer said:

To be fair .. hendrix and eddie van halen wouldn’t sound good in a jazz band either ... prince was great at being prince but break him up into his individual talents and he certainly has his shortcomings.. when his fans deny this yes he is overrated .. but still underrated compared to the pop landscape of any era

I agree smile

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Reply #26 posted 04/04/21 3:48pm

CAL3

thebanishedone said:

I was one of the most annoying orgers making countless threads about how great Prince is on guitar.I thought those who don't share my view just don't get it.but things change and as i started paying more attention to some more proficient musicians i came to a realisation that Prince as a musician is way too overrated.i see people saying :imagine Prince and Herbie Hancock playing together or i see a topic here "the day Prince changed the world of electric guitar.Prince did push the envelope in the realm of pop music but every attempt he did outside of pop wss far from good.Prince's jazz projects are like kindergarden jazx compared to Mahavishnu Orchestra or Return To Forever.Prince is a good rhythm guitar player but as a soloist his playing is average or even bellow.his piano playing is overhyped and in reality i"ve seen him playing live piano parts that wete under rehearsed.I love Prince and his music but it's hard for me to pretend that he is amazing on guitar bass piano and drums when he is just average even to pop music standards. [Edited 4/3/21 17:23pm]

.

We?

.

Some have overrated him, some haven't haven't. It depends so much on the audience you're speaking of.

.

I see your point. His "jazz" dabblings are hardly worth the effort for any serious jazz enthusiast. As a point of entry for those who haven't really listened to good fusion, they hold some value.

.

I don't think many have overrated Prince as a ROCK guitarist. I would agree with those who have said he is often quite underrated in that regard.

I’ve been informed that my opinion is worth less than those expressed by others here.
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Reply #27 posted 04/04/21 4:03pm

RighteousOne

Well, what did you expect. Some kind of reasoned response? You do know you put this question up on a Prince fan site, right? To people who spend much of their lives here. It was never going to be objective was it? They don’t do objective here.
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Reply #28 posted 04/04/21 4:43pm

thebanishedone

RighteousOne said:

Well, what did you expect. Some kind of reasoned response? You do know you put this question up on a Prince fan site, right? To people who spend much of their lives here. It was never going to be objective was it? They don’t do objective here.

At least you got my point.I love Prince but on facebook,org and utub i have seen unrealistic adoration coming from fans .under the comment section of 1977 Instrumental Jazz Funk recording of Prince somebody wrote :i wonder how Prince would sound playing with Herbie Hancock.on the org there was a thread "The night Prince changed world of guitar" implaying that Prince changed the world of rock guitar solo with his playing on While My Guitar Gently Weeps.So all those Prince is amazing on the instruments he plays.He was very good ,maybe amazing at the way he presented himself but was he amazing on any instrument ?
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Reply #29 posted 04/04/21 4:50pm

Wolfie87

thebanishedone said:

RighteousOne said:

Well, what did you expect. Some kind of reasoned response? You do know you put this question up on a Prince fan site, right? To people who spend much of their lives here. It was never going to be objective was it? They don’t do objective here.

At least you got my point.I love Prince but on facebook,org and utub i have seen unrealistic adoration coming from fans .under the comment section of 1977 Instrumental Jazz Funk recording of Prince somebody wrote :i wonder how Prince would sound playing with Herbie Hancock.on the org there was a thread "The night Prince changed world of guitar" implaying that Prince changed the world of rock guitar solo with his playing on While My Guitar Gently Weeps.So all those Prince is amazing on the instruments he plays.He was very good ,maybe amazing at the way he presented himself but was he amazing on any instrument ?


Now you record and produce on your own, now you dance like a god in High Heels, now you use your voice from low to high only matched by Mariah Carey, now you pull out a blistering guitar solo while spinning, now you record Sign "O" The Times on your own, now you Lay down harmonies on Adore, now you move music forward without following trends, now you dip into any genre fearless. I can move on. What is your problem? Bait click topic and Troll topic at the same time.
[Edited 4/4/21 16:51pm]
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