herb4 said:

lavendardrummachine said:

you said it's Prince's "sexual side"

Neversin said:

I didn't say that...

lavendardrummachine said:

The "Camille" persona was just an act (not even a female act, he just used the name for the mystery of it, in his early he did the same for his own "Prince" act by toying with his sexuality etc.) he concocted for a play/movie that would have (probably) "The Kid" compete with this new funky and mysterious artist called "Camille" who was beating him in the music game with the big reveal at the end being that "Camille" and "The Kid" were one and the same person ("Prince")...

But tell us some more about how his attitudes towards the LGBTQ later in life factored into Camille. You're free to disagree with half baked opinions of your own, but going out of your way to incessantly call people dumb...reflects on you. Quasi Prince insiders get exposed for what blowhards they can be with every release. Stick to what you're useful for.

[Edited 8/10/20 13:35pm]

Neversin isn't saying Camille was toying with his sexuality, he's saying the "Prince" act was doing that; and that the Camille persona was also an act. He didn't say they were the same kind of act.

This is why I stopped trying to have a conversation with you -- you're reading what you want to see, not what's actually written.

edit

[Edited 8/10/20 14:46pm]

jone70 said:

lavendardrummachine said:

you said it's Prince's "sexual side"

Neversin isn't saying Camille was toying with his sexuality, he's saying the "Prince" act was doing that; and that the Camille persona was also an act. He didn't say they were the same kind of act.

No kidding. Words have meaning and i'm reacting to those words and what all that would communicates and implies.

herb4 said:

controversy99 said:

herb4 said: This is an odd comment. The first two releases were Witness 4 the Prosecution and I Could Never Take the Place of Your Man (1979 demo). One of these is sticky at this very moment. I don’t quite understand how you could miss that. I’m not trying to be mean or anything; it’s just weird. Btw, I agree that Cosmic Day wouldn’t be a good first release. But the actual first and second releases were solid, imo.

My bad.

I totally missed them both. Thanks though

Was it the sticky? I swear I zone out all sticky threads in the sticky portion of the forum consistently, so I'm always 2-3 weeks later with this shit.

Also I think placing any contextual import on these as "singles" is kind of missing the point. Joe Six Pack isn't currently getting their local morning zoo DJ on their local Hot 100 Top 40 station "breaking out the new Prince single live!" I doubt literally less than 1% of people are hearing this that weren't already Prince superfans with SOTT deluxe in their preorder cart.... nobody's playing these anywhere but a specific YouTube/Spotify link....

[Edited 8/10/20 16:37pm]

RJOrion said:

bonatoc said:

Now wait a second.


...A sophisticated mass-produced cacophony of no-win situations
That aren't right?

La la-la-la
La la-la-la
Shalalala-lala-laaaaa
Shalalala-lala-laaaaa

...that's Shakespeare to you?

Not to mention the la-la-la's from the girls
during the chorus, suprisingly similar to the Cosmic Day ones.


You have very little
to no point at all.

the lalalala refrain sung in Large Room has much a better rhythmic delivery and placement, and far better melodic qualities than the shrill and soul-less Cosmic Day refrain you tried to compare it to. and i never mentioned Shakespeare...anywhere...ever i suspect you love the song and i dont like the song...and maybe even for the same reasons...but who knows. so what was YOUR point? [Edited 8/10/20 13:21pm]

My point was that they both share the same innocent, child-like quality
.
If I was to consider "ear spitting awful" the la-la-la's from Cosmic Day,
I would also diss IALRWNL, because they're one and the same, despite
the latter being masked (or adourned, depending on the mood) under the pretentious jazzy modulations typical of Wendy & Lisa (or the latter Counter Revolution, as Eric Leeds as stated IALRWNL was a combined effort, and sure enough it sounds like one composition-wise, this can't stem from Prince alone, it's blatant).
They could be rightfully considered equally cringeworthy, even if for different reasons.

Now I'm referring to the part that precedes (and closes) the chorus,
not the la-la-la's within the chorus itself,
which are brilliant.

The clips leaked in the last years never impressed me.

After several listening to the full released version, now I think that "Cosmic Day" is a fun track and a solid addition to the Prince songbook.

Anyway, I still strongly believe that it is the most overrated unreleased vault track in P fan community.

Very very away from the "myth" surrounding it when it was talked.

BoraBora said:

The clips leaked in the last years never impressed me.

After several listening to the full released version, now I think that "Cosmic Day" is a fun track and a solid addition to the Prince songbook.

Anyway, I still strongly believe that it is the most overrated unreleased vault track in P fan community.

Very very away from the "myth" surrounding it when it was talked.

What's the myth? It's always been a very divisive track, no lack of people over the years saying they had no interest in hearing it.

jaawwnn said:

BoraBora said:

The clips leaked in the last years never impressed me.

After several listening to the full released version, now I think that "Cosmic Day" is a fun track and a solid addition to the Prince songbook.

Anyway, I still strongly believe that it is the most overrated unreleased vault track in P fan community.

Very very away from the "myth" surrounding it when it was talked.

What's the myth? It's always been a very divisive track, no lack of people over the years saying they had no interest in hearing it.

It is a very divisive track from the moment it started to leak to the general community, outside of the elite circle.

Before (and I'm talking of at least two decades, I'm in the wonderful world of P outtakes since 1988) it was indicated by a lot of people as "The Holy Grail Of All The Holy Grails", talking of it as the supreme P masterpiece.

So maybe now and from 6/7 years it's not more a "myth".... but before it was.

Right, ok. I haven't been around half as long as you but I have seen so many songs described as someone or other's "holy grail", from Wally to Nothing Compares to 17 Days extended to Moonbeam Levels etc. etc.

WhisperingDandelions said:

herb4 said:

My bad.

I totally missed them both. Thanks though

Was it the sticky? I swear I zone out all sticky threads in the sticky portion of the forum consistently, so I'm always 2-3 weeks later with this shit.

.

They're literally linked on the FRONTPAGE OF THIS SITE.

lavendardrummachine said:

Neversin said:

The "Camille" persona was just an act (not even a female act, he just used the name for the mystery of it, in his early he did the same for his own "Prince" act by toying with his sexuality etc.) he concocted for a play/movie that would have (probably) "The Kid" compete with this new funky and mysterious artist called "Camille" who was beating him in the music game with the big reveal at the end being that "Camille" and "The Kid" were one and the same person ("Prince")...

But tell us some more about how his attitudes towards the LGBTQ later in life factored into Camille. You're free to disagree with half baked opinions of your own, but going out of your way to incessantly call people dumb...reflects on you. Quasi Prince insiders get exposed for what blowhards they can be with every release. Stick to what you're useful for.

[Edited 8/10/20 13:35pm]

Judging by your lack of reading comprehension and your incessant need to hang on to and spreading stupidity, I doubt you understand a thing (and obviously weren't around back then...) regarding this quite clear topic... I'll be here sticking to being useful to a select few; you stay where you are and keep being useless for the rest...

Neversin.

[Snip - luv4u]

BartVanHemelen said:

[Snip - luv4u]

There is way too much hair-splitting on this one song. Christ.

Milty2 said:

There is way too much hair-splitting on this one song. Christ.

Well at least it got us all in motion.
We were kind of comatose lately.
Even Bart is back in full form.

bonatoc said:

wasitgood4u said:

Well, I've been off the Org for a while. Glad to see it's the same as it was... twenty years ago...

ChocolateBox3121 said:

wasitgood4u said:

Well, I've been off the Org for a while. Glad to see it's the same as it was... twenty years ago...

Hey, just like SKipper and The Band!

"...Them get old, but The Org just looks the same."

Romeoblu said:

I'm still in awe of this song. It seemed so elusive. First we only had the song title and description, which made me think it was probably a great song Then the one minute snippet which was very frustrating as I loved that one minute. Then the extra minute which again was frustrating as it faded you could hear it was going to start to get even more interesting. I always thought we might get a guitar solo and then the song would end. What actually happens is even better than I imagined. I spent years longing to hear this song in it's entirety and I'm so pleased to finally have it Now I have to wait for the Clare fischer version. Is this released version the same as the one various people claimed to have had for years?

Did anybody ever claim to have the full version?

As far as i know all the talk about it over the years (before the wider leak) was people refering to the 2 minute snippet

Anyway, there is also the lines in the handritten lyrics about cosmic girls and elephants, so there is the possibility it was recorded with those lyrics and then cut? And like u say, the version with Clare Fischer strings which would be interesting to hear

SchlomoThaHomo said:

SquirrelMeat said:

Ding Ding. There is a real danger than fans with less knowledge are labeling Camille songs as 'tracks with a speeded up voice'. That thought process is already all over you tube and twitter, and has been here for many years.

There was never a Camille 'voice'. There was high register (Good Love), mid register (Le Grind) and low register (scarlett Pussy/Bob George). For some reason, a section of Prince fans seem desperate to compartmentalise Camille as the speeded up tracks.

I'm confused by this. Good Love is the Camille voice, Le Grind his normal voice, and Bob George the deep pitched voice (Spooky Electric? Though he refers to himself as Camille during Bob George on the Lovesexy Live video, just to make it a little more confusing). The latter 2 aren't referred to as Camille or Camille-style tracks. The high pitched voice is the distinguishing factor of a Camille or Camille-style track, even if it was never credited to Camille.

The best way to look at it is....there is no 'Camille voice'.

Unless new evidence emerges from the vault, the only tracks Prince has accredited to Camille are those o the Camille album, U Got The Look, The Black album and Scarlett Pussy. Combined, they cover fast, regular and speeded up vocal.

He also stated Camille was male.

Beyond the facts from Prince, I have my own guesses. I think what Camille was developed over time.

When he created the Camille Album, my guess is he exclusively used a speeded up voice simply to add to the idea that this was not a Prince album. It was nothing more than part of the mask.

By the time he credited Camille as the creator of The Black Album, I think he was looking for a way to compartmentalise the pre-Lovesexy work when he wasn't in a good place mentally.

Crediting Scarlett Pussy to Camille was a way of distancing himself from a 'dirty' track that he wanted to put out, but went against his overall message of 'Lovesexy' at the time.

If the estate are hinting they think 'Cosmic Day' is a Camille track, they may have some new evidence from the vault. If it is, then really is a fourth vocal style, because it's clearly a very differenct pitch to the Camille abum tracks.

SquirrelMeat said:

I disagree. I find an intent, a delivery that is distinct from the rest of his production.
He was singing in a way conscious of what the varispeed would bring to the end result.
I think it was an intentional creative stance.
Put « Shockadelica » or « Good Love » back to normal speed, you lose some magic.
Not to mention « If I Was Your Girlfriend ».



I will always consider « Love Or Money » and « Sex » as Camille songs.
The delivery creates the character.

bonatoc said:

SquirrelMeat said:

When he created the Camille Album, my guess is he exclusively used a speeded up voice simply to add to the idea that this was not a Prince album. It was nothing more than part of the mask.

I disagree. I find an intent, a delivery that is distinct from the rest of his production.
He was singing in a way conscious of what the varispeed would bring to the end result.
I think it was an intentional creative stance.
Put « Shockadelica » or « Good Love » back to normal speed, you lose some magic.
Not to mention « If I Was Your Girlfriend ».

I will always consider « Love Or Money » and « Sex » as Camille songs.
The delivery creates the character.

How does that character come across to you on Le Grind or Bob George?

Sounds too much like "What is Life" by George Harrison. Ironically, Harrison was (successfully) sued over his song "My Sweet Lord" by the writer of "He’s So Fine" by the Chiffons.

SquirrelMeat said:

bonatoc said:

SquirrelMeat said:

I disagree. I find an intent, a delivery that is distinct from the rest of his production.
He was singing in a way conscious of what the varispeed would bring to the end result.
I think it was an intentional creative stance.
Put « Shockadelica » or « Good Love » back to normal speed, you lose some magic.
Not to mention « If I Was Your Girlfriend ».

I will always consider « Love Or Money » and « Sex » as Camille songs.
The delivery creates the character.

How does that character come across to you on Le Grind or Bob George?

It doesn't. At all.

I remember being in the line for the Lovesexy show,
and they were selling the program a few hours before we got in.

And so we got plenty of time to go through the pages and I read "Camille" as,
as you said, being a mask, a modesty,
a way to tell the fans "I've been through some serious shit lately"
without expressing it in the first person.

Keep in mind "Blue Monday" theories were still years ahead.
I don't think anyone got it how serious he was about it at the time,
that he was in fact trying to speak about a very serious depression,
the source of the epiphany that gave life to Lovesexy.

On the surface it seemed as an alibi to explain
the most positive, almost naive record he ever released.
(and at the same time, giving a hell of promotion to the growingly famous bootleg,
the smartest business move to cement himself a definitive legendary status,
in the footstepts of Dyland or Led Zep, through an alternative,
unofficial discography. Other bootlegs quickly emerged.
Too quickly and too numerous not to raise suspicions, in hindsight.
The Trojan Horse was galloping as soon as 1989.
Only when he realized the volume and extent
of his alternative universe did he backpedal and ask for his fair share.)

So, Camille in the Tour Book, an alias.
I could never connect the funny, quirky,
sensuous character singing "Shockadelica"
to this deflection strategy, to this "guy who got depressed, not me" stunt.
He could have use "Alexander Nevermind".
It was just another way to say "Prince".

Or maybe he was trying to hint at his depression originating
in the emasculation of the whole Crystal Ball/Dream Factory/Camille opus.
Maybe Camille got angry and bitter, for not forcing Camille to become a reality
when there was still time. Bitter for not having his genius recognized.

Maybe he started to have regrets about listening to Waronker and reduce SOTT
to a double album, once the highs of the Grandest Concert Of Them All were behind,
maybe he felt ripped off a Grammy he deserved more than Purple Rain.
Maybe, maybe if it had been a triple (and even more diverse) album,
the industry would have been forced to recognize the genius,
forced to let The Joshua Tree dry in the desert.

But show-business considerations aside, maybe he was disappointed at himself
for not fighting enough to impose his utopia, his sixties-like vision of frequent
releases, fast artistic transitions, bold creative ambitions.

He got reasoned by businessmen at a moment
where his creativity was firing on all cylinders, blues, funk, vaudeville,
introspection, guitar hero, Vegas crooning, the result of all the years of hard work
and dedication were there, undisputable, giving more fruits than he was able to pick.

And then you end up with just a double album. Think about it.
It's an impossible feat to get into Prince's head, but the smorgasbord
that is the forthcoming box doesn't even cover everything (the main absentees
residing on Crystal Ball, and then some more missing).
How many LP's again? Just two. Sure, not everything in the box
is Crystal material, but Columbia had the balls, so why not Warner?

No wonder the ultimate fan-made multi-gigabyte box
is called "A Year In The Life".
This is the year Skipper transitioned
from Superman to Dr. Manhattan
(oh well, maybe a funkier version).

I think we often project in Prince an ability to plan in advance,
first because there's a need to rationalize his moves and decisions,
and then because most of the time his instincts generate double meanings,
double entendres, several ways to interpretation that suggest us
"that must be it! That was what he had in mind!".

But as his complete bio continues to unfurl, thanks to guys like Duane Tudahl
pursuing and refining the immense work done by Per Nilsen, and other unsung heroes,
everyone collaborating at Uptown magazine, and the many discussions we have here,
we know now that most often than not, Prince was just going with the flow,
as many collaborators have stated.

What was certain today could become void the day after.

And because the definitive truth about his intent will never be known,
it gives us enormous freedom to reshape the story, each one to their own liking.
This is something he had understood a long time ago, and the reason
for all the cultivation of mystery and enigma. By letting us provide
the missing pieces, we can all come with alternative endings.

Is "Erotic City" the first Camille song?
Probably. It's quirky. It has a sped up and slowed down voices.
It's sexy. It's funny, in a smart way. It's ambiguous.
But then again, maybe it isn't at all.

And this ongoing doubt is a much better legacy than something engraved in stone.
The fantasy and daydreaming live on. We're still excited about it.
Probably as he intented us to be.

But this is, again and sure enough,
subject to controversy.

[Edited 8/13/20 15:49pm]

bonatoc said:

SquirrelMeat said:

How does that character come across to you on Le Grind or Bob George?

It doesn't. At all.

I remember being in the line for the Lovesexy show,
and they were selling the program a few hours before we got in.

And so we got plenty of time to go through the pages and I read "Camille" as,
as you said, being a mask, a modesty,
a way to tell the fans "I've been through some serious shit lately"
without expressing it in the first person.

Keep in mind "Blue Monday" theories were still years ahead.
I don't think anyone got it how serious he was about it at the time,
that he was in fact trying to speak about a very serious depression,
the source of the epiphany that gave life to Lovesexy.

On the surface it seemed as an alibi to explain
the most positive, almost naive record he ever released.
(and at the same time, giving a hell of promotion to the growingly famous bootleg,
the smartest business move to cement himself a definitive legendary status,
in the footstepts of Dyland or Led Zep, through an alternative,
unofficial discography. Other bootlegs quickly emerged.
Too quickly and too numerous not to raise suspicions, in hindsight.
The Trojan Horse was galloping as soon as 1989.
Only when he realized the volume and extent
of his alternative universe did he backpedal and ask for his fair share.)

So, Camille in the Tour Book, an alias.
I could never connect the funny, quirky,
sensuous character singing "Shockadelica"
to this deflection strategy, to this "guy who got depressed, not me" stunt.
He could have use "Alexander Nevermind".
It was just another way to say "Prince".

Or maybe he was trying to hint at his depression originating
in the emasculation of the whole Crystal Ball/Dream Factory/Camille opus.
Maybe Camille got angry and bitter, for not forcing Camille to become a reality
when there was still time. Bitter for not having his genius recognized.

Maybe he started to have regrets about listening to Waronker and reduce SOTT
to a double album, once the highs of the Grandest Concert Of Them All were behind,
maybe he felt ripped off a Grammy he deserved more than Purple Rain.
Maybe, maybe if it had been a triple (and even more diverse) album,
the industry would have been forced to recognize the genius,
forced to let The Joshua Tree dry in the desert.

But show-business considerations aside, maybe he was disappointed at himself
for not fighting enough to impose his utopia, his sixties-like vision of frequent
releases, fast artistic transitions, bold creative ambitions.

He got reasoned by businessmen at a moment
where his creativity was firing on all cylinders, blues, funk, vaudeville,
introspection, guitar hero, Vegas crooning, the result of all the years of hard work
and dedication were there, undisputable, giving more fruits than he was able to pick.

And then you end up with just a double album. Think about it.
It's an impossible feat to get into Prince's head, but the smorgasbord
that is the forthcoming box doesn't even cover everything (the main absentees
residing on Crystal Ball, and then some more missing).
How many LP's again? Just two. Sure, not everything in the box
is Crystal material, but Columbia had the balls, so why not Warner?

No wonder the ultimate fan-made multi-gigabyte box
is called "A Year In The Life".
This is the year Skipper transitioned
from Superman to Dr. Manhattan
(oh well, maybe a funkier version).

I think we often project in Prince an ability to plan in advance,
first because there's a need to rationalize his moves and decisions,
and then because most of the time his instincts generate double meanings,
double entendres, several ways to interpretation that suggest us
"that must be it! That was what he had in mind!".

But as his complete bio continues to unfurl, thanks to guys like Duane Tudahl
pursuing and refining the immense work done by Per Nilsen, and other unsung heroes,
everyone collaborating at Uptown magazine, and the many discussions we have here,
we know now that most often than not, Prince was just going with the flow,
as many collaborators have stated.

What was certain today could become void the day after.

And because the definitive truth about his intent will never be known,
it gives us enormous freedom to reshape the story, each one to their own liking.
This is something he had understood a long time ago, and the reason
for all the cultivation of mystery and enigma. By letting us provide
the missing pieces, we can all come with alternative endings.

Is "Erotic City" the first Camille song?
Probably. It's quirky. It has a sped up and slowed down voices.
It's sexy. It's funny, in a smart way. It's ambiguous.
But then again, maybe it isn't at all.

And this ongoing doubt is a much better legacy than something engraved in stone.
The fantasy and daydreaming live on. We're still excited about it.
Probably as he intented us to be.

But this is, again and sure enough,
subject to controversy.

[Edited 8/13/20 15:49pm]

Wow, now thats a great answer!

Personally, when I heard 'Erotic City', I didn't hear any alter ego, and certainly no more than when I listen to tracks like 'Artifical Cage' with the same vocal style.

All I hear is artististic expression and pushing bounderies of sound.

Where I would disagree is the sped up vocal on some of the tracks and the 'Camille' benefit. I think 'Good Love', 'Rebirth of the flesh' 'If I was your girlfriend' and 'Feel U Up' all sound better 'unspeeded'.

Also, I don't think we can reshape Prince history unless we have evidence that contradicts what Prince has said.

That leads back to my original point. I think Prince was revisionist on what Camiile was, but until new evidence presents itself, its a dangerous path to say what is and isn't Camille beyond the facts Prince laid out. You might feel 'Erotic City' is Camille, but it was recorded way before any hint of the character and never labelled by Prince as being part of the persona.

Revolution81 said:

Romeoblu said:

I'm still in awe of this song. It seemed so elusive. First we only had the song title and description, which made me think it was probably a great song Then the one minute snippet which was very frustrating as I loved that one minute. Then the extra minute which again was frustrating as it faded you could hear it was going to start to get even more interesting. I always thought we might get a guitar solo and then the song would end. What actually happens is even better than I imagined. I spent years longing to hear this song in it's entirety and I'm so pleased to finally have it Now I have to wait for the Clare fischer version. Is this released version the same as the one various people claimed to have had for years?

Did anybody ever claim to have the full version?

As far as i know all the talk about it over the years (before the wider leak) was people refering to the 2 minute snippet

Anyway, there is also the lines in the handritten lyrics about cosmic girls and elephants, so there is the possibility it was recorded with those lyrics and then cut? And like u say, the version with Clare Fischer strings which would be interesting to hear

i have some wrong and valid sdescription is some noites from almost 20 years ago from a.m.p, a.b.m.p, Princefams, housequake and prince.org that mentions the lyrics beyond th 2 minute mark, guitar solos and the 'Coosmiiic Daaay' parts so there were definately people who had the full version.
(T, Neversin, THX17771 from a.m.p all had the full vrsion for sure, they described the pcorrect parts back then.)
there were allso some fakers who decribed things that don't exist in the song and even claimed the speed was wrong back then.

JorisE73 said:

Revolution81 said:

Did anybody ever claim to have the full version?

As far as i know all the talk about it over the years (before the wider leak) was people refering to the 2 minute snippet

Anyway, there is also the lines in the handritten lyrics about cosmic girls and elephants, so there is the possibility it was recorded with those lyrics and then cut? And like u say, the version with Clare Fischer strings which would be interesting to hear

i have some wrong and valid sdescription is some noites from almost 20 years ago from a.m.p, a.b.m.p, Princefams, housequake and prince.org that mentions the lyrics beyond th 2 minute mark, guitar solos and the 'Coosmiiic Daaay' parts so there were definately people who had the full version.
(T, Neversin, THX17771 from a.m.p all had the full vrsion for sure, they described the pcorrect parts back then.)
there were allso some fakers who decribed things that don't exist in the song and even claimed the speed was wrong back then.

Interesting. I frequented those some places and various others over the years and never saw anybody describe anything past the two min mark anywhere.

The only person that i can say for sure had the full thing is the person who made the snippet, and that was none of the 3 you mentioned...at least one of them i know for certain did not have it