That was the wine talking last night.

lavendardrummachine said:

ISaidLifeIsJustAGame said:

I dont know, maybe I just didnt look at it as others would??

Well....right. But listening to Motown doesn't really have anything to do with California rock crowds during that era. California had a fair amount of "rednecks" (for lack of a better descriptive term) then. A lot of them even grew up hearing Motown, but that doesn't mean they were still listening to it. They had Tina Turner and Etta James open a show each, because Bill Graham was the promoter and got his start promoting shows in a Black club, but they still didn't dare bring them on for the entire tour run.

I talked with one of the bigger bands synonymous with Brit Pop about openng bands once, and this still goes on today. They were saying how they tried to put on groups that they liked or who were inspirations and they loved, but they had decided their audience couldn't handle it after trying it a couple times. They had to factor in things like age, race, genre of the acts. It wasn't a making money thing, it was a fear of the audiences losing their marbles over it.
This wasn't that long ago.

lavendardrummachine said:

poppys said:

How? I missed the explanation.

Music was more segregated then. There was also a class divide between people that liked rock and music with guitars, and disco. The point about California Hell's Angels is definitely accurate and Altamont. Aditionally you didn't see many Blacks in punk, or skateboard culture....or the art world....and I could keep going. That 80's period was very different from the progress of the early 70's.... it ties to the history of urban renewal, and much bigger topics. Black radio also became a thing where they stopped playing Black artists on regular radio, it wasn't until MTV that it started to loosen up again. That was where the term "Crossover" came from. Prince was able to cross over. When Living Colour came out in 1988, the idea of a Black rock band was all anybody talked about with them, like it was unheard of or something. There was a collective disconnect... it's not like people didn't know about Hendrix... but that's just how it was, there was a weird cognitive dissonance.

So yeah, people might own a Stevie Wonder but that didn't mean they wanted to see him at a rock show in California in the early 80's when they came to see the Stones.

Already posted that I think Prince was booed for a variety of reasons, part societal on a couple of fronts, part cranky drunk hot rude people etc. Collective disconnect and cognitive dissonance makes sense, still happening today.

As far as music being more segregated then - well yes and no. I am Prince's age, huge music hipster from early on. The industry had not yet figured out how to lockdown people's opinions with paid peer influencers and the overwhelming crush of internet rule was non-existent. Songs were not co-opted for selling Pepto Bismol. It was more wide open in a way. White Black Puerto Rican, everybody just a freakin was the reality for many of us. MTV was not a game changer for a lot of us olders - we were already onboard. The coconut vine worked great before it was revamped for media (monetary) purposes. People went to wreka stows and talked to each other.

Industry terms like Crossover (and the former Race music that became Rhythm & Blues) were there of course, but not cemented into people's brains the corporate way they are now. If people liked a song, most had no idea what the "classification" was, they just made it popular by asking for it.

I posted about Stevie Wonder opening for the Stones anecdotally, not to set a blanket opinion for Stones concerts. But, there is no "a" Stevie Wonder. There was and always will be only "the" Stevie Wonder. He's just that important.

Growing up in western Pennsylvania in the 60's and 70's was not a great place for a (gay) white boy to be listening to 'black' music, but that's what I did. I was listening to Isaac Hayes, Diana Ross, Parliament, etc. while my contemporaries were listening to Led Zeppelin, Aerosmith, etc. I remember the shock felt by the community when in 1976 Hall & Oates 'sara smile' was released as a single, they made their first appearance on television and we saw that it was two white guys! Everyone thought that they were black singers before then. This was way before MTV came along and the only way to see performers was on Soul Train, American Bandstand, etc. There was another group with two white male singers/guitar players that had had a couple of hits back to back and when it was discovered that one of them was married to a black woman their career came to a screeching halt. Fast forward 5 years to the California/Prince incident and things hadn't changed much. One just didn't mix 'black' music with rock music. Sure, there were a couple of 'crossovers' such as Stevie Wonder and Diana Ross but not much more than that. Prince on stage at a Rolling Stones concert at that particular time was asking for trouble but it was also at a time when things were losening up and music genres were starting to blend into each other. Took a lot of guts for our Purple Yoda to do what he did then.

[Edited 2/1/20 8:43am]

kingricefan said:

Growing up in western Pennsylvania in the 60's and 70's was not a great place for a (gay) white boy to be listening to 'black' music, but that's what I did. I was listening to Isaac Hayes, Diana Ross, Parliament, etc. while my contemporaries were listening to Led Zeppelin, Aerosmith, etc. I remember the shock felt by the community when in 1976 Hall & Oates 'sara smile' was released as a single, they made their first appearance on television and we saw that it was two white guys! Everyone thought that they were black singers before then. This was way before MTV came along and the only way to see performers was on Soul Train, American Bandstand, etc. There was another group with two white male singers/guitar players that had had a couple of hits back to back and when it was discovered that one of them was married to a black woman their career came to a screeching halt. Fast forward 5 years to the California/Prince incident and things hadn't changed much. One just didn't mix 'black' music with rock music. Sure, there were a couple of 'crossovers' such as Stevie Wonder and Diana Ross but not much more than that. Prince on stage at a Rolling Stones concert at that particular time was asking for trouble but it was also at a time when things were losening up and music genres were starting to blend into each other. Took a lot of guts for our Purple Yoda to do what he did then.

[Edited 2/1/20 8:43am]

Thanks for sharing your experience.

IMO, Prince was very courageous throughout his career.

Wasn't he just 21 or 22 when he played this venue?

kingricefan said:

Growing up in western Pennsylvania in the 60's and 70's was not a great place for a (gay) white boy to be listening to 'black' music, but that's what I did. I was listening to Isaac Hayes, Diana Ross, Parliament, etc. while my contemporaries were listening to Led Zeppelin, Aerosmith, etc. I remember the shock felt by the community when in 1976 Hall & Oates 'sara smile' was released as a single, they made their first appearance on television and we saw that it was two white guys! Everyone thought that they were black singers before then. This was way before MTV came along and the only way to see performers was on Soul Train, American Bandstand, etc. There was another group with two white male singers/guitar players that had had a couple of hits back to back and when it was discovered that one of them was married to a black woman their career came to a screeching halt. Fast forward 5 years to the California/Prince incident and things hadn't changed much. One just didn't mix 'black' music with rock music. Sure, there were a couple of 'crossovers' such as Stevie Wonder and Diana Ross but not much more than that. Prince on stage at a Rolling Stones concert at that particular time was asking for trouble but it was also at a time when things were losening up and music genres were starting to blend into each other. Took a lot of guts for our Purple Yoda to do what he did then.

[Edited 2/1/20 8:43am]

It's very odd that you label music "black" or "white" based on the performer's skin colour, rather than the music itself.

You really don't realize the roots of rock and roll were formed by blacks???

What, do you think Elvis invented the genre?

Do the names Chuck Berry, Larry Williams, Bo Diddley, James Brown, Jimmy Preston, Wes Montgomery, Fats Domino, The Isley Brothers, Goree Carter, Little Richard, or Sister Rosetta Tharpe not mean anything to you??

You say that Prince was booed because of his skin colour only, rather than what he was wearing or the feminine falsetto voice he was using or the lyrics he was singing (When You Were Mine, Bambi, Jack U Off).

Yet Hendrix was adored by white fans, and was actually hated by many in the black community because he was viewed as a musical Uncle Tom .... a black man playing white man's music.

Did you know that just two weeks after Jimi's legendary Woodstock appearance, he performed in Harlem and was immediately jeered, heckled, and had eggs & bottles thrown at him. That's right, a black musician despised by a black audience.

So please, don't try to say Prince was booed just because of his skin colour. That's beyond ridiculous, not to mention he had several white bandmates.

[Edited 2/1/20 10:27am]

Pokeno4Money said:

It's very odd that you label music "black" or "white" based on the performer's skin colour, rather than the music itself.

kingricefan said:

Growing up in western Pennsylvania in the 60's and 70's was not a great place for a (gay) white boy to be listening to 'black' music, but that's what I did. I was listening to Isaac Hayes, Diana Ross, Parliament, etc. while my contemporaries were listening to Led Zeppelin, Aerosmith, etc. I remember the shock felt by the community when in 1976 Hall & Oates 'sara smile' was released as a single, they made their first appearance on television and we saw that it was two white guys! Everyone thought that they were black singers before then. This was way before MTV came along and the only way to see performers was on Soul Train, American Bandstand, etc.

There was another group with two white male singers/guitar players that had had a couple of hits back to back and when it was discovered that one of them was married to a black woman their career came to a screeching halt. Fast forward 5 years to the California/Prince incident and things hadn't changed much.

One just didn't mix 'black' music with rock music. Sure, there were a couple of 'crossovers' such as Stevie Wonder and Diana Ross but not much more than that. Prince on stage at a Rolling Stones concert at that particular time was asking for trouble but it was also at a time when things were losening up and music genres were starting to blend into each other. Took a lot of guts for our Purple Yoda to do what he did then.

That is so cool. I saw Hall & Oates sometime in the 70s at the Ohio Theater in Columbus. They opened for Earth Wind & Fire. We had great seats in a box near the stage. A-mazing show.

poppys said:

That is so cool. I saw Hall & Oates sometime in the 70s at the Ohio Theater in Columbus. They opened for Earth Wind & Fire. We had great seats in a box near the stage. A-mazing show.

Poppys I was at the same concert!!!

lol I also met them that night.

poppys said:

. White Black Puerto Rican, everybody just a freakin was the reality for many of us.

I know what you mean here, but I can also think of examples of contradictions there in terms of music.

There was a melting pot that happened during Prince's generation, but let's be real, it wasn't always just the reality, they were singing songs about it, they were going out of their way to book those shows like that, or find a white drummer as funky as anyone.

Audiences didn't stay open minded though. All the Black artists people are mentioning joining Rolling Stones on stage were in old traditions, they weren't cutting edge or if they were (Stevie), that was just 3 records. People liked the idea of Hendrix, but they really meant like 3 of his songs, and it's not like Black audiences ran out and bought Van Halen (a California band) or you would see "interracial" crowds at their local shows.


Another example of this disconnect is the early Hip Hop breaks. That culture is considered Black originated, but Latins were there from the get go, and the beats borrowed from every genre, including Rock drums.... but nobody really recognizes that until the mid-90's, and really you can go to 2005, and Hip Hop was still coming to terms with how much disco they borrowed, they pretty much stuck that in the closet and rewrote the history. Run-DMC captured white audiences before working with Aerosmith, and everyone liked Sugar Hill Gang, and lot of other hip hop records...but you wouldn't typically see white people at hip hop clubs, and it was still a big deal when Ice T and later Ice Cube joined a predominantly white tour in the 90's, or Public Enemy toured with Rage Against the Machine, or Wu Tang with Atari Teenage Riot in the later 90's. People were comparmentalizing.

The mentality was of the greater population drawn to a stadium show wasn't very sophisticated.


We went backwards but also there was just the lingering effects of "that person of color is okay, but I don't know you"....or "they've cool, that person is down, but I don't know this other person".

Civil Rights is 1964. 1981 wasn't that long after.

Last but not least.... he starts with Bambi which is like hard rock (which is new) with soft vocals, then he goes into "When you were mine", and that's got to be scrambling unsophisticated brains. Remember, the Rolling Stones are on an Americana themed stadium tour, and the 50's retro trend is about to hit big with baby boomers, and Prince is up there playing 50's rock n' roll while clashing with that vision, with "Jack U off", and then an instrumental version of Uptown, that's a little synth heavy for a Rolling Stones crowd at that point...by the time he gets to "Why you wanna treat me so bad" they had invented a lot of reasons, but his appearance and race weren't helping. And the next band up was George Thorogood and he's going to play Cocaine Blues.

[Edited 2/1/20 13:35pm]

Pokeno4Money said:

You really don't realize the roots of rock and roll were formed by blacks???

In 1981? People weren't thinking about it like that.

Sure, some people knew....but no, the average person really didn't know or wasn't caring like that.


Once Elvis, the Rolling Stones, Buddy Holly, etc. become huge, the idea of "they're playing Black music" really isn't part of thinking. It's part of what John Lennon tries to do when he records "Rock N Roll" in the early 70's, but the point is entirely missed. The color of the skin making the music changed what people heard somehow.... that's why the Hall and Oats skin color comes up, and it's such an important example.

But that conversation about the roots is just starting to happen in the early 80's.

[Edited 2/1/20 13:38pm]

[Edited 2/1/20 13:39pm]

lavendardrummachine said:

poppys said:

I know what you mean here, but I can also think of examples of contradictions there in terms of music.

There was a melting pot that happened during Prince's generation, but let's be real, it wasn't always just the reality, they were singing songs about it, they were going out of their way to book those shows like that, or find a white drummer as funky as anyone.

Audiences didn't stay open minded though. All the Black artists people are mentioning joining Rolling Stones on stage were in old traditions, they weren't cutting edge or if they were (Stevie), that was just 3 records. People liked the idea of Hendrix, but they really meant like 3 of his songs, and it's not like Black audiences ran out and bought Van Halen (a California band) or you would see "interracial" crowds at their local shows.


Another example of this disconnect is the early Hip Hop breaks. That culture is considered Black originated, but Latins were there from the get go, and the beats borrowed from every genre, including Rock drums.... but nobody really recognizes that until the mid-90's, and really you can go to 2005, and Hip Hop was still coming to terms with how much disco they borrowed, they pretty much stuck that in the closet and rewrote the history. Run-DMC captured white audiences before working with Aerosmith, and everyone liked Sugar Hill Gang, and lot of other hip hop records...but you wouldn't typically see white people at hip hop clubs, and it was still a big deal when Ice T and later Ice Cube joined a predominantly white tour in the 90's, or Public Enemy toured with Rage Against the Machine, or Wu Tang with Atari Teenage Riot in the later 90's. People were comparmentalizing.

The mentality was of the greater population drawn to a stadium show wasn't very sophisticated.


We went backwards but also there was just the lingering effects of "that person of color is okay, but I don't know you"....or "they've cool, that person is down, but I don't know this other person".

Civil Rights is 1964. 1981 wasn't that long after.

Last but not least.... he starts with Bambi which is like hard rock (which is new) with soft vocals, then he goes into "When you were mine", and that's got to be scrambling unsophisticated brains. Remember, the Rolling Stones are on an Americana themed stadium tour, and the 50's retro trend is about to hit big with baby boomers, and Prince is up there playing 50's rock n' roll while clashing with that vision, with "Jack U off", and then an instrumental version of Uptown, that's a little synth heavy for a Rolling Stones crowd at that point...by the time he gets to "Why you wanna treat me so bad" they had invented a lot of reasons, but his appearance and race weren't helping. And the next band up was George Thorogood and he's going to play Cocaine Blues.

May I ask how old you are? Is this your actual life experience? Reading a lot of sweeping generalizations here, not sure where they are all coming from. Some of it sounds like it's from books/other writers and that's fine.

I'm talking about what grassroots kids of all colors were doing, kids I knew. You must know that many black musicians (such as John Lee Hooker) became popular in Europe first. The Stones never made any bones about who's music they were copying, they were proud of it and talked about it.

lavendardrummachine said:

Pokeno4Money said:

You really don't realize the roots of rock and roll were formed by blacks???

In 1981? People weren't thinking about it like that.

Sure, some people knew....but no, the average person really didn't know or wasn't caring like that.

Yes, you're right. One good thing about the Rock Hall is it really brought the history of African American influences on rock & roll to the forefront.

However the person to whom I posed the question should know the history by now, no?

lavendardrummachine said:

he starts with Bambi which is like hard rock (which is new) with soft vocals, then he goes into "When you were mine", and that's got to be scrambling unsophisticated brains. Remember, the Rolling Stones are on an Americana themed stadium tour, and the 50's retro trend is about to hit big with baby boomers, and Prince is up there playing 50's rock n' roll while clashing with that vision, with "Jack U off", and then an instrumental version of Uptown, that's a little synth heavy for a Rolling Stones crowd at that point...by the time he gets to "Why you wanna treat me so bad" they had invented a lot of reasons, but his appearance and race weren't helping.

I really think people need to try (I know it's hard to do) and put themselves in the fans' shoes.

The majority of the crowd was macho tough hetero hard rock loving males.

They see a 109-pound 5'2" guy on stage in thigh-high boots and bikini underwear with a coat that doesn't cover up much of anything, singing in falsetto.

He starts his set by singing about a lesbian.

Then he sings about changing the sheets, letting the girl wear all his clothes, and letting a guy sleep between her and him.

Then he sings Jack U Off, which most people think he's referring to a guy because the term is almost exclusively used for guys (NEVER in my life have I heard anyone use the term in reference to a girl).

I really think the booing had little to do with his race, and a lot to do with sexuality.

I think back then, people in general were more homophobic than they were racist.

Um, calm down. Did you read any of my previous posts where I said Prince wasn't booed because of his skin color? The post you chose to quote was just me sharing my early experiences growing up in Pennsylvania and listening to what AT THE TIME was labeled 'black' music IN THE TOWNS where I lived and how music was viewed back then. I know where the roots of RnR come from so don't school me.

Pokeno4Money said:

kingricefan said:

Growing up in western Pennsylvania in the 60's and 70's was not a great place for a (gay) white boy to be listening to 'black' music, but that's what I did. I was listening to Isaac Hayes, Diana Ross, Parliament, etc. while my contemporaries were listening to Led Zeppelin, Aerosmith, etc. I remember the shock felt by the community when in 1976 Hall & Oates 'sara smile' was released as a single, they made their first appearance on television and we saw that it was two white guys! Everyone thought that they were black singers before then. This was way before MTV came along and the only way to see performers was on Soul Train, American Bandstand, etc. There was another group with two white male singers/guitar players that had had a couple of hits back to back and when it was discovered that one of them was married to a black woman their career came to a screeching halt. Fast forward 5 years to the California/Prince incident and things hadn't changed much. One just didn't mix 'black' music with rock music. Sure, there were a couple of 'crossovers' such as Stevie Wonder and Diana Ross but not much more than that. Prince on stage at a Rolling Stones concert at that particular time was asking for trouble but it was also at a time when things were losening up and music genres were starting to blend into each other. Took a lot of guts for our Purple Yoda to do what he did then.

[Edited 2/1/20 8:43am]

It's very odd that you label music "black" or "white" based on the performer's skin colour, rather than the music itself.

You really don't realize the roots of rock and roll were formed by blacks???

What, do you think Elvis invented the genre?

Do the names Chuck Berry, Larry Williams, Bo Diddley, James Brown, Jimmy Preston, Wes Montgomery, Fats Domino, The Isley Brothers, Goree Carter, Little Richard, or Sister Rosetta Tharpe not mean anything to you??

You say that Prince was booed because of his skin colour only, rather than what he was wearing or the feminine falsetto voice he was using or the lyrics he was singing (When You Were Mine, Bambi, Jack U Off).

Yet Hendrix was adored by white fans, and was actually hated by many in the black community because he was viewed as a musical Uncle Tom .... a black man playing white man's music.

Did you know that just two weeks after Jimi's legendary Woodstock appearance, he performed in Harlem and was immediately jeered, heckled, and had eggs & bottles thrown at him. That's right, a black musician despised by a black audience.

So please, don't try to say Prince was booed just because of his skin colour. That's beyond ridiculous, not to mention he had several white bandmates.

[Edited 2/1/20 10:27am]

lavendardrummachine said:

Pokeno4Money said:

You really don't realize the roots of rock and roll were formed by blacks???

In 1981? People weren't thinking about it like that.

Sure, some people knew....but no, the average person really didn't know or wasn't caring like that.


Once Elvis, the Rolling Stones, Buddy Holly, etc. become huge, the idea of "they're playing Black music" really isn't part of thinking. It's part of what John Lennon tries to do when he records "Rock N Roll" in the early 70's, but the point is entirely missed. The color of the skin making the music changed what people heard somehow.... that's why the Hall and Oats skin color comes up, and it's such an important example.

But that conversation about the roots is just starting to happen in the early 80's.

[Edited 2/1/20 13:38pm]

[Edited 2/1/20 13:39pm]

Thanks for having my back!

Thanks for having my back!

MickyDolenz said:

Pokeno4Money said:

It's very odd that you label music "black" or "white" based on the performer's skin colour, rather than the music itself.

ISaidLifeIsJustAGame said:

poppys said:

That is so cool. I saw Hall & Oates sometime in the 70s at the Ohio Theater in Columbus. They opened for Earth Wind & Fire. We had great seats in a box near the stage. A-mazing show.

Poppys I was at the same concert!!!

lol I also met them that night.

Really???

kingricefan said:

Um, calm down. Did you read any of my previous posts where I said Prince wasn't booed because of his skin color? The post you chose to quote was just me sharing my early experiences growing up in Pennsylvania and listening to what AT THE TIME was labeled 'black' music IN THE TOWNS where I lived and how music was viewed back then. I know where the roots of RnR come from so don't school me.

You're telling ME to calm down, while you feel the need to tell others they've "got your back" like you're some kind of victim? Give me a break, this is just a discussion so don't go all Jussie on us. Okay I'll take your word for it about your prior posts, even though others in other threads have lied about what was previously posted. Glad to hear you agree that rock and roll, which many today still view as "white music", has nothing to do with skin colour. And as to the huge blob of pics clogging up the thread now, I have no idea what that person was trying to say. A few words and far less pics would have sufficed. Who wants to scroll through all that, especially on a phone, multiple times? Lack of posting etiquette here is amazing, no wonder we can't embed videos anymore.

What the person who posted the blob of pics was trying to say is that at that time 'black music' was catergorized as such. It's in the titles to the list and magazines in the pics if you bothered to look at them. You jumped on my *ss for it, someone shows you that you are wrong about that and you can't find the time to scroll through the post with the pics or that they're too big for your phone so who's gone all 'Jussie' now? Then you want to take my word for it about my previous posts while again not taking the time to do your research, find my previous posts and read them so you can see for yourself that I never said that Prince was booed off stage for being black. Man, you need a mirror to look into before you start calling people out for what you perceive to be wrong about their posts. Give me a break....

Pokeno4Money said:

kingricefan said:

Um, calm down. Did you read any of my previous posts where I said Prince wasn't booed because of his skin color? The post you chose to quote was just me sharing my early experiences growing up in Pennsylvania and listening to what AT THE TIME was labeled 'black' music IN THE TOWNS where I lived and how music was viewed back then. I know where the roots of RnR come from so don't school me.

You're telling ME to calm down, while you feel the need to tell others they've "got your back" like you're some kind of victim? Give me a break, this is just a discussion so don't go all Jussie on us. Okay I'll take your word for it about your prior posts, even though others in other threads have lied about what was previously posted. Glad to hear you agree that rock and roll, which many today still view as "white music", has nothing to do with skin colour. And as to the huge blob of pics clogging up the thread now, I have no idea what that person was trying to say. A few words and far less pics would have sufficed. Who wants to scroll through all that, especially on a phone, multiple times? Lack of posting etiquette here is amazing, no wonder we can't embed videos anymore.

kingricefan said:

What the person who posted the blob of pics was trying to say is that at that time 'black music' was catergorized as such. It's in the titles to the list and magazines in the pics if you bothered to look at them. You jumped on my *ss for it, someone shows you that you are wrong about that and you can't find the time to scroll through the post with the pics or that they're too big for your phone so who's gone all 'Jussie' now? Then you want to take my word for it about my previous posts while again not taking the time to do your research, find my previous posts and read them so you can see for yourself that I never said that Prince was booed off stage for being black. Man, you need a mirror to look into before you start calling people out for what you perceive to be wrong about their posts. Give me a break....

Wait a minute ... you had said you agreed with me that people's view of "black music" was based on the music itself, not the colour of the musician's skin.

Now you're backtracking by defending the blob poster???

I looked at the blob, it's not wise to make assumptions like you did that I didn't look at it.

The blob was totally irrelevant, which is why there was no accompanying comment by the blob poster.

Black music is based on the music itself, period. You can't convince me or anyone else for instance that Eminem's is "white music" just because he's white. He got best Rap Album and Best Rap Solo Performance for God's sake. His album made the top of the R&B/HipHop charts, are you now trying to tell me his Rap/HipHop music is "white music"?

I already pointed out Harlem's harsh behaviour toward Jimi Hendrix just two weeks after Woodstock (a big music festival), and have you ever heard of a hard rock band named Living Colour? Are you going to assume they were all white, simply because they were a hard rock band?

And don't go throwing the Jussie label back at me, I'm not the one who acted like a victim.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt about what you said you had posted earlier, and you attack me for trusting you? Drama much?

Again, you AGREED WITH ME in your last post. Why all the hate now? Somebody whispering in your ear?

[Edited 2/2/20 12:00pm]

Pokeno4Money said:

I looked at the blob, it's not wise to make assumptions like you did that I didn't look at it.

The blob was totally irrelevant, which is why there was no accompanying comment by the blob poster.

kingricefan said:

Thanks for having my back!

Certainly looks like somebody is trying to get this thread shut down.

Why people who have nothing to say can't stay the hell out of a thread is beyond me.

Oh yeah, because they seek the attention online that they can't get in the real world.

Sad.

Music was 100% absolutely categorized primarlily by race in the early 1980's and, to a lesser extent, by pop/easy listening sorts of things.

From radio stations to the different departments in record stores, the line between "black" or "white" music was very palpable, even if Hall & Oates had their roots in R&B soul, white folks idolized Hendrix or no matter how much Stevie Wonder may have crossed over. There were "rock", R&B", "pop" (disco for a minute) and, later, "new wave", "metal" and maybe "punk" if your record store carried that.

The fact that white acts like the Stones and Led Zeppelin built their entire sound on black southern blues doesn't preclude the fact that this was not how music was fed or delivered to us and very few people who bought RUsh, Stones, AC/DC, Led Zep or anything like it every got crossed over into Pairlament, The Ohio Players, Earth WInd and Fire or even any of the blues stuff those white bands ripped off. MTV eventually helped break down a lot of these walls but even that took a good while and for a long while since their inception, the cable channel stedfastly refused to black artists at all.

Until they could no longer ignore MJ, Prince, etc.

I grew up in norther Delaware and there was WMMR and WYSP that all of my white friends listened to - that mostly played Pink Floyd, Zep, Stones, ACDC, Van Halen, Eagles, Rush, Fleetwood Mac, Sabbath, Beatles, Yes, Kansas, Boston and so forth. No Prince, Rufus, EWaF, George Clinton, or anything close and certainly no "disco" or soft rock like Christopher Cross, Donald Fagen and shit like that. Then, there were also "black" stations that would play Marvin Gaye, Stevie and the Jackson 5 but none of my friends listened to it. NONE.

It wasn't until busing hit my school in the late 70's that I got turned on to shit like "Flashlight" or "Rubber Band Man" and, looking back, I'm grateful for that. We used to have a thing during lunch where kids could take turns playing records. The black kids played "Flashlight" and the white kids played "You Light Up My Life". I was too busy then listening to KISS and Alice Cooper, which NOBODY played.

And, again, Stones fans, by and large, had no issue with black opening acts or black musicians in general. Their audience was overwhelmingly white but their sound wasn't. Not sure how Jagger got a pass for coming off gay but IT WAS a sticking point and a proverbial bone of contention.

If Prince had come out at that time looking different and with "Colonized Mind", "The Ride", "Endorhone Machine", "Calhoun Square", "Zanallee" and "Shh", things might have been different; something that didn't invite the disco backlash. But being perceived as effeminte or gay was absolutely a line/deal breaker for many, MANY people. Race took a back seat to that but, of course, being black didn't help things. If Adam Ant had performed that day, I suspect a similar outcome.

poppys said:

May I ask how old you are? Is this your actual life experience? Reading a lot of sweeping generalizations here, not sure where they are all coming from. Some of it sounds like it's from books/other writers and that's fine.

I'm talking about what grassroots kids of all colors were doing, kids I knew. You must know that many black musicians (such as John Lee Hooker) became popular in Europe first. The Stones never made any bones about who's music they were copying, they were proud of it and talked about it.

No, you may not ask me my age or life experience. I know what I'm talking about.


Whether or not the Stones acknowledged their influences has nothing to do with whether their audiences knew it. The Stones were regarded as originators. Nobody was obsessed with their influences the way they were with other artists like say, Prince.

Pokeno4Money said:

I really think people need to try (I know it's hard to do) and put themselves in the fans' shoes.

Very much agree, which is why I keep trying to add context.

As for whether it was race vs. sexuality, I think it was the combo actually.

But, you can take your pick. The point is that he got a strong reaction, and it's obvious what they had to go on... his music, his appearance, and his race.

lavendardrummachine said:

Pokeno4Money said:

I really think people need to try (I know it's hard to do) and put themselves in the fans' shoes.

Very much agree, which is why I keep trying to add context.

As for whether it was race vs. sexuality, I think it was the combo actually.

But, you can take your pick. The point is that he got a strong reaction, and it's obvious what they had to go on... his music, his appearance, and his race.

Very well said!

I completely agree, it was likely a combination of the above.

I don't doubt there were some racists in the stadium, considering both the size of the crowd and the fact it was early 80's. But I do think if Prince had come out wearing jeans and had performed a cover of Purple Haze, he would have been received a LOT better by the crowd.

I think he was also using the setlist to intentionally mess with the crowd, just like he did with that infamous Dick Clark interview.

lavendardrummachine said:

Pokeno4Money said:

I really think people need to try (I know it's hard to do) and put themselves in the fans' shoes.

Very much agree, which is why I keep trying to add context.

As for whether it was race vs. sexuality, I think it was the combo actually.

But, you can take your pick. The point is that he got a strong reaction, and it's obvious what they had to go on... his music, his appearance, and his race.

What Prince and his band did then did was punk as hell and that audience wasn't ready for it.

lavendardrummachine said:

poppys said:

May I ask how old you are? Is this your actual life experience? Reading a lot of sweeping generalizations here, not sure where they are all coming from. Some of it sounds like it's from books/other writers and that's fine.

I'm talking about what grassroots kids of all colors were doing, kids I knew. You must know that many black musicians (such as John Lee Hooker) became popular in Europe first. The Stones never made any bones about who's music they were copying, they were proud of it and talked about it.

No, you may not ask me my age or life experience. I know what I'm talking about.


Whether or not the Stones acknowledged their influences has nothing to do with whether their audiences knew it. The Stones were regarded as originators. Nobody was obsessed with their influences the way they were with other artists like say, Prince.

Bingo. You may think you know what you are talking about but you weren't there - in 1964 or maybe "81 either. Your lack of first hand knowledge is showing in the discussion. Relying on other opinions you have heard or read. There are no winners of who knows what they're talking about the most here anyway.

herb4 said:

What Prince and his band did then did was punk as hell and that audience wasn't ready for it.

I don't agree, and I'll tell you why.

The shows were scheduled just a few days prior to the Controversy album being released.

More than anything, punk music is anti-establishment.

If they wanted to go punk for those shows, they'd have played "Ronnie Talk To Russia" and "Annie Christian" and "Controversy" along with some songs from Dirty Mind and his self-titled first album.

Nothing they played those two days was anti-establishment IMO.