Rape is bad. Murder is bad. So let's get rid of every song about killing someone. "Hey Joe." Every gangsta rap song. There's probably a few others about killing...."Natural Born Killaz." Maybe a couple others.

Next we get rid of every movie and TV show that features rape and killing because killing is bad.

Give me a fuckin' break!!!

sro100 said:

Rape is bad. Murder is bad. So let's get rid of every song about killing someone. "Hey Joe." Every gangsta rap song. There's probably a few others about killing...."Natural Born Killaz." Maybe a couple others.

Next we get rid of every movie and TV show that features rape and killing because killing is bad.

Give me a fuckin' break!!!

Y'all really have nothing better to get worked up about? Seriously, people don't waste any time jumping to these hypothetical scenarios.

There isn't any kind of widespread censorship going on. Sometimes, people collectively decide that certain works of art are insensitive, or don't translate well to modern culture. Usually it's because things are better now than they were years ago, and people have become more empathetic toward victims of violence or sexual trauma. Should it be illegal to create a song like "Extraloveable"? No, and nobody with common sense is fucking saying that. Prince had the right to record those lyrics, and he rightfully chose not to release the song. Fans have the right to criticize the lyrics, and Michael Howe/WB have the right to leave the song in the vault at their discretion.

If people are criticizing something that features heavy topics, it's probably because the creators fumbled how they present said topics. Get a grip.

mbdtyler said:

sro100 said:

Rape is bad. Murder is bad. So let's get rid of every song about killing someone. "Hey Joe." Every gangsta rap song. There's probably a few others about killing...."Natural Born Killaz." Maybe a couple others.

Next we get rid of every movie and TV show that features rape and killing because killing is bad.

Give me a fuckin' break!!!

Y'all really have nothing better to get worked up about? Seriously, people don't waste any time jumping to these hypothetical scenarios.

There isn't any kind of widespread censorship going on. Sometimes, people collectively decide that certain works of art are insensitive, or don't translate well to modern culture. Usually it's because things are better now than they were years ago, and people have become more empathetic toward victims of violence or sexual trauma. Should it be illegal to create a song like "Extraloveable"? No, and nobody with common sense is fucking saying that. Prince had the right to record those lyrics, and he rightfully chose not to release the song. Fans have the right to criticize the lyrics, and Michael Howe/WB have the right to leave the song in the vault at their discretion.

If people are criticizing something that features heavy topics, it's probably because the creators fumbled how they present said topics. Get a grip.

Mic drop-worthy post. Bravo

Strive said:

Genesia said:

Genesia said:

Show of hands: How many of those who think the rapey songs are just fine and dandy are men?

We'll wait …

So fucking true.

ISaidLifeIsJustAGame said:

Genesia said:

Show of hands: How many of those who think the rapey songs are just fine and dandy are men?

We'll wait …

So fucking true.

Good call.

Is the song actually triggering though? A trigger warning on the track listing could have been justified either way, I guess, but to leave it off entirely is wrong. It's not the 80's, people aren't copying Prince or taking provocative Prince seriously. Plus the liner note opportunities on that would have been so good. Hell, they could have included an edit and put them both on.

I know this topic has been flogged to death ad nauseam at this point, but I just want to get a few thoughts and feelings off my chest.

I understand why the estate / WB made the decision to omit these two tracks, but that doesn't mean I agree with it.


The argument to omit them:
In their defence, there was no way they could have avoided a controversy by including these songs unedited. Yes, these songs have been circulating amongst fans and have popped up on the Tube for years now, but music critics, journalists and bloggers are not paying attention to Prince’s unreleased work. However, if you package them up nicely in a deluxe box set and send your preview copies off to the usual outlets then a backlash would be inevitable. The blue check marks on Twitter love jumping on stories like this and Prince's reputation may have taken some unrepairable damage as a result. To what extent? Well, Eminem was caught in exactly the same scandal back in 2015 when Dr. Dre's 'Compton' album was released (https://www.nme.com/news/music/dr-dre-22-1224983) and everybody seemed to have gotten over it within a week. The LP is still available in the shops and the scandal seems to have been forgotten about.

Warner had a straight choice. Get caught up in a scandal or disappoint fans. What chance did we ever stand?


The argument to censor them:
I was amongst the first on this forum to make this suggestion and I caught some heat for it, understandably so. However I don't think I made my reasoning clear.

Under normal circumstances I am vehemently against censorship. When it comes to music I appreciate making radio edits for pre watershed audiences, but I also believe that adults should be able to make their own decisions when it comes to consuming adult content.

The reason I suggested censoring these songs in the first place was part of a bigger picture. These songs are dying! More specifically the master tapes they've been recorded on are. My main concern wasn't to protect the sensibilities of the easily offended. It was about getting these tracks digitized and released in some form or another to preserve them for the future.

As much as I disagree with compromising Prince's work on the whole, the "release them uncensored or not at all" argument really wasn't helpful. It certainly wasn't tactful.

On the plus side, I did learn something positive about a month ago when I was directed to one of Militant's videos. Apparently both 'Extraloveable' and 'Lust U Always' have indeed been digitized. During the development of 1999 Deluxe these songs came so close to making the final cut that both tapes have been properly archived, so at the very least there is a safe copy of both songs that will not degrade at the same rate as their master tapes.

Since learning this my opinion on the matter has shifted. As much as I would buy edited editions of these songs for the improved sound quality, I'm not as desperate to see them get butchered now I know they are safe. I would personally prefer them properly mastered and fully uncut, having said that it's not as if I don't own great Prince songs in edited forms. Amongst many of the 80s album tracks 'The Beautiful Ones' was edited down for running time reasons. The official release of 'Crucial' is a couple of minutes shorter than the original recording despite there being plenty of space on the CD. Why? I don't know, but it's not as if I didn't buy them because the full versions already existed on the bootleg market.


The argument to release them unedited:
As a Prince fan I want to see everything he has ever done properly preserved and, where possible, released. I appreciate that this is a gargantuan task and not everything is going to be salvageable. Despite this, given that he is one of the most prolific recording artists in music history, I think it’s important to prioritise his studio tracks. Furthermore, I think it is important to prioritise his most significant songs, such as songs he’d seriously considered releasing at some point and had previously sequenced while producing his most famous albums… such as ‘Extra Loveable’ and ‘Lust U Always’. Despite their controversial notoriety the original ‘Extra Loveable’ is an undisputed fan favourite and ‘Lust U Always’ makes reference to purple music. A theme that originated on 1999 and foreshadows Prince’s most famous album ‘Purple Rain’. These are not insignificant tracks.


But rape is bad!:
News flash: We know! You're not breaking new ground here, you are stating the obvious. I appreciate that for some these tracks are troubling and can cause upset.

When it comes to incidents such as these where someone puts out a song, a novel, a comedy sketch, even a tweet etc. which some deem to be offensive, I'm convinced that 95% of the outrage comes from larping lunatics who aren't actually offended but believe that they need to act offended. That doesn't change the fact that a small minority are likely to be sincere when they claim that they are hurt or upset by such content. To those that are sincere I do genuinely empathise.

Having said that, it doesn't change the fact that many (if not most) of Prince's fans do not have that same visceral reaction to these lyrics. To them it's just music, and great music at that. If you are genuinely upset by these songs nobody is forcing you to listen to them. You do not have to buy them. And if you do buy the LP they are on you can skip them. If these songs ever get released you'll at least have the option of listening to them if you are so inclined. Right now we do not have this option. Everyone has missed out by the decision to omit these songs.


Just listen to the bootleg!:
Yeah... they sound awful! Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for every leak the subtly improves on the sound quality, but it's not the same and everyone knows it. If we're really supposed to be content with bootleg quality then why release any of Prince's music that's previously leaked. Shall we release the '83 First Avenue concert? Why bother, the bootleg is out there! Should we release the Dream Factory or Camille albums? Why bother, the bootlegs are out there! How about the original Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic songs? Well, the bootlegs sound as if they were recorded on a Dictaphone about 3 blocks away from the studio, but it's out there!


Double Standards:
Warner Brothers released the '1999 Super Deluxe' box set last year. Do you know which other box set Warner Brothers released last year? ‘Stanley Kubrick: Limited Edition Film Collection’ which included the films ‘Clockwork Orange’ (a movie that includes an infamous rape scene) and ‘Lolita’ (a movie about a man who abuses a child). I guess famous musicians aren’t afforded the same artistic licence that famous directors are.

What about heavy metal and gangster rap? I can buy a 'Cannibal Corpse' or 'NWA' album right this second and no one would bat an eyelid. But because Prince is a funk artist he's not allowed to release anything offensive?

Furthermore, thematically aren't 'Extra Loveable' and 'Lust U Always' any worse than 'Sister' or 'Bob George'? The prior being about a minor being abused by an adult and in the latter Prince shoots a woman dead! I don't recall anyone complaining about these tracks getting released. When Prince served these up we licked the plate clean and asked for more. How about 'Teacher Teacher'? Again, a song about an adult trying to abuse their authority over "just a young boy"! That was ok for '1999 Deluxe', but 'Extra Loveable' wasn't!.


The Wally treatment:
I realise that this back and forth argument is going to reign on forever. Nobody is changing anyone's minds here. There are people that want properly mastered copies of these songs and there are people who want them to remain unreleased. Fair enough, we're all entitled to our opinion.

Despite this, I am shocked that two of Prince’s songs have been effectively memory holed indefinitely and his fans aren’t more outraged about it. Sure, lots of Prince’s songs are unreleased right now but at least they stand a chance of getting released in the future. It's just a case of waiting for them to appear on a future album. However 'Extra Loveable' and 'Lust U Always' are not in this category anymore. They were considered for release and got shelved. They can now be relegated to the same status as the original version of Wally. The number of Prince songs we're never going to see released has risen from 1 to 3. They may as well be erased for all the good it's going to do us. Despite the content, don't we value Prince's masters anymore?


But Xtraloveable has been released the way Prince intended?:
So... have you listened to 1999: The New Master much recently?


Transparency and Honesty. A 'thank you' to Michael Howe:
As I've made clear, I'm bitterly disappointed by the decision to omit these tracks from release. Despite this, I do want to thank Michael Howe for addressing this issue openly in his recent 'I Like Your Old Stuff' interview. He could have swept this issue under the rug and left us guessing. Instead he addressed it head on and was very honest with us fans. I really appreciate that Michael is listening to us not ignoring our concerns. Thank you Michael.


OK, I think I'm done. Call me wrong all you want but I've said my piece. Have a good weekend regardless.

Peace and be wild guys.


Oh, and Genesia. I'm a man who thinks "the rapey songs" are just fine and dandy, so count me in!

homesquid said:

Forget about being "woke" or this #METOO thing. The rape lyrics in those songs are simply vile. Evil. Prince never released these versions. Prince would have never released them with those lyrics included. You know that. The man matured. Besides do you really want to witness Prince getting "canceled" by the mob?

Now...having said that. Would it have been better to simply edit out the bad bits and release them?Honestly, I think that would have been better.

[Edited 1/3/20 8:03am]

No. The lyrics are not "vile" or "evil". No more so than Possessed or Sister, anyway. When I listen to those songs I hear him expressing his desire in a humorous to the extreme way, it does not come across as a threat.

What about Bob George? The protaganist in the song kills his cheating woman. Are the lyrics "evil" or "vile"? Some would say so. Prince himself changed lyrics to DMSR, I Feel For You and others when he went JW and he wouldn't sing any of Darling Nikki. (He sure liked to tease the crowd with the instrumental of the opening of the song, though.)

I find it a bit contradictory to say "forget about woke & METOO" followed by "do you really want Prince canceled by the mob". You can't disregard the metoo mob when the threat of cancel culture is the reason for the omission.

[Edited 1/4/20 6:46am]

leadline said:

EyeSpy said:

homesquid said: It must have been a difficult decision for Michael Howe - such strong material to leave unreleased. But I completely understand the motive for leaving the two songs off the 1999 Super Deluxe Edition. What I will say however is that a proper analysis of this time period is simply not complete without these recordings and in particular Extraloveable which is surely one of best pieces of work from that era. Therefore, my own personal preference would be for the estate to make these two songs available as a download only, perhaps with some sort of disclaimer. That way, us fans are satisfied as completists and the estate has avoided the backlash of those songs appearing on a major record release.

I don't agree with censorship in any form, but these songs were too important to leave off, especially Extraloveable, which easily would have been the strongest on the set. That being said, these words could have been edited out without anyone noticing a thing, without a beat being missed. Of all the liberties they have taken with his music, somehow taking out 1 word is crossing the line? Makes no sense.

This is a contradiction as well.

"I don't agree with censorship in any form"

"these words could have been edited out without anyone noticing a thing"

Yes, we woule have noticed. But, which is it? You don't agree with censorship at the same time you advocate for it.

Neversin said:

homesquid said:

Bullshit. Rape is evil and joking about rape isn't funny or playful. You aren't serious enough. Prince should have never sang those words. He would be mortified by the negative blowback his reputation would get. They should have just edited out the words so crybabies like you would have what you wanted. But you'd still complain that they made those edits.

There's a big difference between raping a person and singing/writing/acting/joking about it...
What's next; banning every movie/play/book that depicts rape in a way some oversensitive cunt doesn't agree with?!

Neversin.

THIS!

Rape is evil. Prince's lyrics on these two songs are not.

If they release the tracks, nobody will force those that are offended by the lyrics to listen to them, but by not releasing them those that want them don't have the option. Relesing them gives everybody CHOICE.

If you don't like them, just don't listen. No reason to take the choice away from the rest of us.

At best it comes across as virtue signalling, at worst it's a bit fascistic to impose your own values on others.

The Estate is very wrong indeed!

People need to grow up - it's a song!

It won't promote more rapes nor will it prevent rape happening. Nor will it stop woman lying about rape and using rape as a weapon against men.

People have the right to choose and to accept responsibility as and when they wish too.

Clearly the Estate hasn't listened to at least 90% of Prince's back catalogue!

If they had many tracks like 'Lets Pretend We're Married' and 'Darling Nikki' would have been removed from recent re-issues.

Yet let's not be blindsighted about the truth!

The omissions is all about money! The Estate want to milk as much money as possible from fans and don't want to risk that.

However it all backfired as sales bombed!

Although I've made my feelings about omission and censorship clear, I gotta say:

If you're not buying 1999 SDE because of these 2 tracks aren't on there, then you're being ridiculous. Support this release and judge it on it's content, not on omissions. This one is way better than Purple Rain Deluxe and hopefully the next will be even better. But not if people don't buy it...

djThunderfunk said:

Galaxy said:

djThunderfunk said:

Although I've made my feelings about omission and censorship clear, I gotta say:

If you're not buying 1999 SDE because of these 2 tracks aren't on there, then you're being ridiculous. Support this release and judge it on it's content, not on omissions. This one is way better than Purple Rain Deluxe and hopefully the next will be even better. But not if people don't buy it...

I too haven't purchased the 1999 box set because I am incensed that those 2 songs are not on the cds. I will purchase it later though and I dislike cd 2 2 many edited versions.Prince should never be edited as I prefer to listen to the long versions. Also they could have replaced them with other songs and the instrumental possessed version.

Of course it's your right to miss out on an excellent set because it's not even better by two songs. But don't be delusioned into believing that the decision makers take it that way. They just see fewer sales and consider whether it's even worth it to produce these sets.

As for the edits, I'll never understand why people complain about them. It's standard to include such things and those of us that are completists would complain if they were missing. All you have to do is skip that disc if you don't want it. Why should those of us that do want them not have them because others don't want it? It's not like if they dropped it from the set that would instead offer another disc of unreleased material. They wouldn't, the set would instead be 4CD/DVD, and the price wouldn't be significantly cheaper either.

homesquid said:

The rape lyrics in those songs are simply vile.

.

You deny any context for the lyrics.

You deny sexuality a spot.

You immediately jump to the politically correct response.

You do not even ponder the 'art' thing.

.

Also you question a 'decision' by 'the estate' when no such decisionmaking body is known.

See the story about the 'Originals' thing and who influenced the tracklist and/or came up with this genius idea.

VaultCurator said:

Transparency and Honesty. A 'thank you' to Michael Howe:
As I've made clear, I'm bitterly disappointed by the decision to omit these tracks from release. Despite this, I do want to thank Michael Howe for addressing this issue openly in his recent 'I Like Your Old Stuff' interview. He could have swept this issue under the rug and left us guessing. Instead he addressed it head on and was very honest with us fans. I really appreciate that Michael is listening to us not ignoring our concerns. Thank you Michael.

Quick reminder that Michael Howe is a liar and a snake in the grass like every other record company A&R guy.

First interview on 1999 Deluxe, he refused to mention those two songs and said that they included Colleen because they wanted to be as thorough as possible.

"[on Colleen] MH: Yes it is. We included this really because it’s one of those things that fans kind of know exists or have heard exists, and it would have been a glaring omission, I think, if we had left it off. I thought its inclusion would be a fun little nugget."

https://www.superdeluxeedition.com/interview/prince-archivist-michael-howe-talks-sde-through-1999-bonus-material/

It was only after the fan backlash that he decided to address the issue on Extralovable & Lust U Always not being included.

He also lied about the selection process. He said in interviews that he "found" Nothing Compares 2 U and decided to release it. He said that he heard of P&M 83, tracked it down out of 10 possible cassettes and he convinced the powers that be that it should be the next release. Then in that recent 'I Like Your Old Stuff' interview he says.

“I would like to convey that the people making these decisions take this very seriously. It’s very much a deliberate and involved process, it’s not like I walk into The Vault and pluck a tape off the shelf and decide that it’s something that I think should emerge and then it ends up on the marketplace. It’s a very forensic, very involved, very thoughtful, very high-integrity process and to do it right takes time, a lot of thought and conversation. It literally keeps me up at night; I want to do right by Prince, I want to do right by the fans and I certainly want to do right by the family.

He's a bullshitter and a fraud that's in way over his head. Don't trust his lies.

[Edited 1/4/20 9:26am]

djThunderfunk said:

udo said:

homesquid said:

The rape lyrics in those songs are simply vile.

.

You deny any context for the lyrics.

You deny sexuality a spot.

You immediately jump to the politically correct response.

You do not even ponder the 'art' thing.

.

Also you question a 'decision' by 'the estate' when no such decisionmaking body is known.

See the story about the 'Originals' thing and who influenced the tracklist and/or came up with this genius idea.

One factor that people always seem to ignore is that those lyrics really didn't represent who Prince was at any point in his career. There's a reason those songs stayed unreleased and, like Genesia said, there's a reason Prince reworked "Extraloveable" when he decided to release it. Prince isn't Eminem. He has no Slim Shady version of himself. No persona that Prince created would threaten to drag a woman into a tub and rape her. They are vile lyrics. You can't do a wink wink, nudge nudge after them. There's nothing funny about them, and there is no context to them other than the obvious one.

The decision to not include them was a good one, and if you want to hear them, they are easily attainable at this point. So, there's nothing stopping anyone from hearing the originals.

TheBigBang said:

udo said:

.

You deny any context for the lyrics.

You deny sexuality a spot.

You immediately jump to the politically correct response.

You do not even ponder the 'art' thing.

.

Also you question a 'decision' by 'the estate' when no such decisionmaking body is known.

See the story about the 'Originals' thing and who influenced the tracklist and/or came up with this genius idea.

One factor that people always seem to ignore is that those lyrics really didn't represent who Prince was at any point in his career. There's a reason those songs stayed unreleased and, like Genesia said, there's a reason Prince reworked "Extraloveable" when he decided to release it. Prince isn't Eminem. He has no Slim Shady version of himself. No persona that Prince created would threaten to drag a woman into a tub and rape her. They are vile lyrics. You can't do a wink wink, nudge nudge after them. There's nothing funny about them, and there is no context to them other than the obvious one.

The decision to not include them was a good one, and if you want to hear them, they are easily attainable at this point. So, there's nothing stopping anyone from hearing the originals.

What's your thoughts on Horny Toad?

"If I had your number I'd call you on the phone

I'd breathe real heavy, if that didn't work
Maybe I'll start to groan
I don't love you, I'm just a horny toad

I don't want your money 'cause I got all I need
All I want is to rub your body
Until you start to bleed
I don't love you, I'm just a horny toad

If I had your address I'd come right to your door
I'd knock all day till you let me in
And then I'd knock some more
I ain't crazy, I'm just a horny toad

If you think I'm nasty, you ain't seen nothin' yet
You see, I'm the kinda brother that the more you scream
The nastier I get
I can't help it, I'm just a horny toad

Run, go tell your boyfriend his lovin' has got too old
He might as well pack his things
And get his dead ass on the road
Tell him you live on a lily pad
With a horny toad, whoa, yeah!"


That's significantly more vile and disturbing than Extraloveable and Lust U Always but it was included on 1999 Deluxe.

Also Prince included both Extraloveable and Lust U Always as selectable songs for Crystal Ball 2 at Celebration. Why would he do that if he thought those songs should stay unreleased? If the fanbase thought that those songs were so disgusting, why did they select them?

http://www.princevault.com/index.php?title=Album:_Crystal_Ball_Volume_II

[Edited 1/4/20 9:47am]

TheBigBang said:

LoveGalore said:

He's discussed the team of (I believe 3) stakeholders who decide the content before - him being one of them.

It's 4 people. Michael Howe, Troy Carter, and the two women running things at Comerica.

Neversin said:

homesquid said:

Bullshit. Rape is evil and joking about rape isn't funny or playful. You aren't serious enough. Prince should have never sang those words. He would be mortified by the negative blowback his reputation would get. They should have just edited out the words so crybabies like you would have what you wanted. But you'd still complain that they made those edits.

There's a big difference between raping a person and singing/writing/acting/joking about it...
What's next; banning every movie/play/book that depicts rape in a way some oversensitive cunt doesn't agree with?!

Neversin.

What's next? Erasing Sister because it's pro incest ?

Neversin said:

homesquid said:

Bullshit. Rape is evil and joking about rape isn't funny or playful. You aren't serious enough. Prince should have never sang those words. He would be mortified by the negative blowback his reputation would get. They should have just edited out the words so crybabies like you would have what you wanted. But you'd still complain that they made those edits.

There's a big difference between raping a person and singing/writing/acting/joking about it...
What's next; banning every movie/play/book that depicts rape in a way some oversensitive cunt doesn't agree with?!

Neversin.

What's next? Erasing Sister because it's pro incest ?

jn2 said:

mbdtyler said:

sro100 said:

Rape is bad. Murder is bad. So let's get rid of every song about killing someone. "Hey Joe." Every gangsta rap song. There's probably a few others about killing...."Natural Born Killaz." Maybe a couple others.

Next we get rid of every movie and TV show that features rape and killing because killing is bad.

Give me a fuckin' break!!!

Y'all really have nothing better to get worked up about? Seriously, people don't waste any time jumping to these hypothetical scenarios.

There isn't any kind of widespread censorship going on. Sometimes, people collectively decide that certain works of art are insensitive, or don't translate well to modern culture. Usually it's because things are better now than they were years ago, and people have become more empathetic toward victims of violence or sexual trauma. Should it be illegal to create a song like "Extraloveable"? No, and nobody with common sense is fucking saying that. Prince had the right to record those lyrics, and he rightfully chose not to release the song. Fans have the right to criticize the lyrics, and Michael Howe/WB have the right to leave the song in the vault at their discretion.

If people are criticizing something that features heavy topics, it's probably because the creators fumbled how they present said topics. Get a grip.

Go F---- yourself! How's that for being worked up? lol