TheBigBang said:

udo said:

.

You deny any context for the lyrics.

You deny sexuality a spot.

You immediately jump to the politically correct response.

You do not even ponder the 'art' thing.

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Also you question a 'decision' by 'the estate' when no such decisionmaking body is known.

See the story about the 'Originals' thing and who influenced the tracklist and/or came up with this genius idea.

One factor that people always seem to ignore is that those lyrics really didn't represent who Prince was at any point in his career. There's a reason those songs stayed unreleased and, like Genesia said, there's a reason Prince reworked "Extraloveable" when he decided to release it. Prince isn't Eminem. He has no Slim Shady version of himself. No persona that Prince created would threaten to drag a woman into a tub and rape her. They are vile lyrics. You can't do a wink wink, nudge nudge after them. There's nothing funny about them, and there is no context to them other than the obvious one.

The decision to not include them was a good one, and if you want to hear them, they are easily attainable at this point. So, there's nothing stopping anyone from hearing the originals.

Thank you. The defenders of these lyrics go on and on about "context" and "art" without giving any kind of explanation of what artistic value they see in these lines. What is so crucial about these rape lyrics? I have zero doubt that if you only knew those songs without the rape references intact, you wouldn't think anything was missing and would enjoy them every bit as much. What kind of joy do you derive from hearing a man tell a woman that he's going to rape her? Jesus fucking christ, some of you are twisted in the head.

Since "Horny Toad" is coming up a lot in this thread, let's go ahead and acknowledge that yeah, those lyrics are also needlessly gross. I never paid attention to them until recently and it's definitely not one of Prince's finer moments as a songwriter.

[Edited 1/4/20 11:55am]

[Edited 1/4/20 11:56am]

homesquid said:

mbdtyler said:

Y'all really have nothing better to get worked up about? Seriously, people don't waste any time jumping to these hypothetical scenarios.

There isn't any kind of widespread censorship going on. Sometimes, people collectively decide that certain works of art are insensitive, or don't translate well to modern culture. Usually it's because things are better now than they were years ago, and people have become more empathetic toward victims of violence or sexual trauma. Should it be illegal to create a song like "Extraloveable"? No, and nobody with common sense is fucking saying that. Prince had the right to record those lyrics, and he rightfully chose not to release the song. Fans have the right to criticize the lyrics, and Michael Howe/WB have the right to leave the song in the vault at their discretion.

If people are criticizing something that features heavy topics, it's probably because the creators fumbled how they present said topics. Get a grip.

Mic drop-worthy post. Bravo

Yeah definitely mic worthy!...If you're delusional and only looking to validate your own opinion. So do we also get rid of all movies and songs about killing? Or is it only rape? Because rape is bad. Or isn't killing bad? How about when Prince says "Tony shoot that piece of shit?" He's talking about killing someone. Wow you two are so unbelievably smart and smarmy.

Galaxy said:

djThunderfunk said:

Of course it's your right to miss out on an excellent set because it's not even better by two songs. But don't be delusioned into believing that the decision makers take it that way. They just see fewer sales and consider whether it's even worth it to produce these sets.

As for the edits, I'll never understand why people complain about them. It's standard to include such things and those of us that are completists would complain if they were missing. All you have to do is skip that disc if you don't want it. Why should those of us that do want them not have them because others don't want it? It's not like if they dropped it from the set that would instead offer another disc of unreleased material. They wouldn't, the set would instead be 4CD/DVD, and the price wouldn't be significantly cheaper either.

I did say I will purchase it on a later date. Yeah come to think of it others might love the edits not me though. I was not impressed by Prince The Hits box set besides the B sides disk. When Doves Cry edited I cant listen to it and all the other songs as well. Prince didn't like that idea and I doubt he would like what's going on with this. Some years later they will release 1999 album with Extra Loveable and Lust U Always.

I get it. I had been a fan and collector for over 2 decades before I decided edits were worth my time and attention or tried to include them in my collection. So, I understand. But for those of us that do find value in them, the super deluxe package is where they belong.

mbdtyler said:

Thank you. The defenders of these lyrics go on and on about "context" and "art" without giving any kind of explanation of what artistic value they see in these lines. What is so crucial about these rape lyrics? I have zero doubt that if you only knew those songs without the rape references intact, you wouldn't think anything was missing and would enjoy them every bit as much.

Actually I have a number of times. They're just ignored like most of my posts because they go against NPC programming.

I don't feel like explain the context for the millionth time again but Extraloveable and Lust U Always are extremely tightly crafted songs that would fall out of the groove if you removed the offensive language or tried to cover it up with a sound effect.

mbdtyler said:

What kind of joy do you derive from hearing a man tell a woman that he's going to rape her? Jesus fucking christ, some of you are twisted in the head.

Oh yeah, you got me. I just love rape. Nothing makes me happier. In fact, that's why I'm so angry. My little pee-pee can't get hard enough until I have them in the highest fidelity possible.

mbdtyler said:

Since "Horny Toad" is coming up a lot in this thread, let's go ahead and acknowledge that yeah, those lyrics are also needlessly gross. I never paid attention to them until recently and it's definitely not one of Prince's finer moments as a songwriter.

Glad you agree. Now lets delete that, DSMR for the scream at the end, Let's Pretend We're Married for the "I want to fuck the taste out of your mouth"...hell, let's just cancel Prince completely for him telling the true life story about how he lost his virginity to a stoned 14 year old at a party when he was 16 in Schoolyard. That's basically rape by today's standards, right?

Be sure to burn your all your records and memorabilia.

[Edited 1/4/20 12:29pm]

Strive said:

mbdtyler said:

Thank you. The defenders of these lyrics go on and on about "context" and "art" without giving any kind of explanation of what artistic value they see in these lines. What is so crucial about these rape lyrics? I have zero doubt that if you only knew those songs without the rape references intact, you wouldn't think anything was missing and would enjoy them every bit as much.

Actually I have a number of times. They're just ignored like most of my posts because they go against NPC programming.

I don't feel like explain the context for the millionth time again but Extraloveable and Lust U Always are extremely tightly crafted songs that would fall out of the groove if you removed the offensive language or tried to cover it up with a sound effect.

Oh yeah, you got me. I just love rape. Nothing makes me happier. In fact, that's why I'm so angry. My little pee-pee can't get hard enough until I have them in the highest fidelity possible.

mbdtyler said:

Since "Horny Toad" is coming up a lot in this thread, let's go ahead and acknowledge that yeah, those lyrics are also needlessly gross. I never paid attention to them until recently and it's definitely not one of Prince's finer moments as a songwriter.

Glad you agree. Now lets delete that, DSMR for the scream at the end, Let's Pretend We're Married for the "I want to fuck the taste out of your mouth"...hell, let's just cancel Prince completely for him telling the true life story about how he lost his virginity to a stoned 14 year old at a party when he was 16 in Schoolyard. That's basically rape by today's standards, right?

Be sure to burn your all your records and memorabilia.

[Edited 1/4/20 12:29pm]

This is so embarrassingly reactionary, I'm cringing

Genesia said:

Show of hands: How many of those who think the rapey songs are just fine and dandy are men?

We'll wait …

Yup men are evil. No doubt. Or like Tom Cruise says in Magnolia, "Men are shit!"

Exactly.

Women are good. Women never do anything wrong. They're all angels.

I'm an evil man, of course, so rapey songs are fine and dandy!

homesquid said:

Galaxy said:

Extra Loveable & Lust u Always should have been Included on the 1999 Deulux Edition. On both songs its Prince showing humour and being playful. There is nothing evil about both of these songs Some people are too serious. Extra Loveable should have been released as a single.

Bullshit. Rape is evil and joking about rape isn't funny or playful. You aren't serious enough. Prince should have never sang those words. He would be mortified by the negative blowback his reputation would get. They should have just edited out the words so crybabies like you would have what you wanted. But you'd still complain that they made those edits.

Post of the year!

"Rape is evil!"

We have a winner!!

Yeah, Horny Toad actually describes the non-consentual criminal acts.

And then there's Sister....

It would have been really easy to simply remove the offensive lyric that way,we would still have the songs and there would be nothing for anyone to get offended about

I have the "clean" version of the Love Symbol cassette,and they removed the offensive word from "Sexy MF".It goes like this....."come here,baby,yeah....you sexy motha AWOWWW!"

.

[Edited 1/4/20 15:40pm]

SoulAlive said:

It's time frame art, of course they should be released as is. The only reason they weren't is because we are living in a 'new puritan' age.

We've already had the call to stop playing 'Baby It's Cold outside'. What next? Ban 'Every Breath You Take' for 'promoting' stalking, or 'I Don't Like Mondays' for 'encouraging' school shootings?

mbdtyler said:

Thank you. The defenders of these lyrics go on and on about "context" and "art" without giving any kind of explanation of what artistic value they see in these lines. What is so crucial about these rape lyrics?

.

You sincerely do not get it?

Then what are you listening to?

Why are you listening at all?

These lyrics were Prince at that time, under these circumstances.

They will not be gone when censored.

Lyrics do not have to be crucial. Simply listen.

I have zero doubt that if you only knew those songs without the rape references intact, you wouldn't think anything was missing and would enjoy them every bit as much.

.

AKA I enjoy censoring stuff because others any not here what I think is wrong.

.

What kind of joy do you derive from hearing a man tell a woman that he's going to rape her?

.

Always take the litteral angle.

Can't you understand Prince migth have been in heat?

Stuff like that?

Why is that so hard?

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Jesus fucking christ, some of you are twisted in the head.

.

That is a great argument!

.

Since "Horny Toad" is coming up a lot in this thread, let's go ahead and acknowledge that yeah, those lyrics are also needlessly gross. I never paid attention to them until recently and it's definitely not one of Prince's finer moments as a songwriter.

.

You cannot discern between the (mostly) kosher hits and otehr works.

You think that censorship is the way to go.

This will end in fascism.

If you cannot see that then I cannot help you.

Genesia said:

Prince re-recorded Extraloveable, himself. That's the strongest indication possible that he no longer felt the original version was viable for release. People ask all the time, "What would Prince think/do about this?" In this case, we know beyond a reasonable doubt.

The rapey version is readily available. Anyone who feels so inclined may listen to it at will.

I'm stating the obvious, but unfortunately in every other respect the original version is vastly superior, and the sound quality of circulating copies is quite poor. I don’t like the offending lyrics either, but I’d like to see an official release of a truncated version – the later half isn’t as essential as other extended Prince tracks in my view. I rate it as one of Prince's best, so it's a real shame.

I consider myself to be as “woke” as anyone and a genuine feminist, but I’m equally wary of censorship and cancel culture when it comes to art. Art should be allowed to explore the darkest aspects of the human psyche unflinchingly and without apology. Read 120 Days of Sodom if you really want to be offended.

That said, the thing with these specific lyrics is that they’re so facile, flippant and unnecessary, and they mar what is otherwise a stone-cold classic (in the case of Extraloveable). If the tracks were thoughtful explorations of these themes I’d defend them, but the inclusion of those lyrics is simply bad from an artistic and intellectual point of view. I see no reason not to release a truncated version though.

[Edited 1/4/20 21:16pm]

Please, show me where I said that Prince's insensitive lyrical content should be banned forever and that people should be punished for listening to it. You throwing the word "fascism" around over people being critical of art is laughable with all of the serious shit going on in the world today that is comparable to actual fascism. Prince said some dumb shit in a couple of songs, chose not to release them himself, and now some of us think it's smart that his archivists hold onto them until a time when there aren't rapists in positions of power all across the world.

Someday these songs will probably get released, and I'll happily listen to a self-made edit, and you have the freedom to enjoy the original with the rape lyrics that you deem irreplaceable and essential. Until then, you can learn how to cope with people not loving every word that Prince put to tape.

fen said:

I consider myself to be as “woke” as anyone and a genuine feminist, but I’m equally wary of censorship and cancel culture when it comes to art. Art should be allowed to explore the darkest aspect of the human psyche unflinchingly and without apology. Read 120 Days of Sodom if you really want to be offended.

That said, the thing with these specific lyrics is that they’re so facile, flippant and unnecessary, and they mar what is otherwise a stone-cold classic (in the case of Extraloveable). If the tracks were thoughtful explorations of these themes I’d defend them, but the inclusion of those lyrics is simply bad from an artistic and intellectual point of view. I see no reason not to release a truncated version though.

You hit the nail on the head and I've been trying to express this every single time the subject comes up, but the apologists always ignore it and say I'm missing the context.

mbdtyler said:

You throwing the word "fascism" around over people being critical of art is laughable

.

'Critical' of art?

Art is a matter of atste.

You like the art or you do not or somewhere in between.

Fascism is the effect of once censorship begins it grows bigger and has to sensor more.

If you are unfamiliar with this effect then you should investigate ab it more.

Censorship is to be abhorred.

Even pondering that 'the estate' made a 'decision' when the assorted collection of individuals that have influence over these releases never released a mission statement, never relased a plan or anything resembling an idea that shows they are serious about maximizing the monetary value of the vault is laughable.

It shows a world view that is kinda simplistic.

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with all of the serious shit going on in the world today that is comparable to actual fascism.

.

Censorship is shit.

The rest of the world is full of idiots and assholes that I do not even have to search for, they manifest themselves on an almost daily basis.

Dragging the rest of the world into this is a diversion.

.

Prince said some dumb shit in a couple of songs, chose not to release them himself,

.

Not releasing stuff?

If he had lived long enough it could have happened.

See the albums full of 'old' songs that were released in his lifetime.

So there is not a black/white 'decision' to never ever release stuff.

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and now some of us think it's smart that his archivists hold onto them until a time when there aren't rapists in positions of power all across the world.

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Epstein did not kill himself and that is enough of a sign about what is going on.

.

Someday these songs will probably get released, and I'll happily listen to a self-made edit,

.

Good for you!

But please do not think as if censorship is cool, necessary or otherwise warranted in the case of art.

.

and you have the freedom to enjoy the original with the rape lyrics that you deem irreplaceable and essential. Until then, you can learn how to cope with people not loving every word that Prince put to tape.

.

Some of that stuff is over here.

mbdtyler said:

Please, show me where I said that Prince's insensitive lyrical content should be banned forever and that people should be punished for listening to it. You throwing the word "fascism" around over people being critical of art is laughable with all of the serious shit going on in the world today that is comparable to actual fascism. Prince said some dumb shit in a couple of songs, chose not to release them himself, and now some of us think it's smart that his archivists hold onto them until a time when there aren't rapists in positions of power all across the world.

Someday these songs will probably get released, and I'll happily listen to a self-made edit, and you have the freedom to enjoy the original with the rape lyrics that you deem irreplaceable and essential. Until then, you can learn how to cope with people not loving every word that Prince put to tape.

If they were released, nobody would force anyone to listen to them. If those that don't want to hear them also don't want anyone else to hear them, that is fascistic, regardless of other fascism happening around the world.

We can cope with people not loving it.

Some don't seem to be able to cope with people not being offended by it.

SquirrelMeat said:

It's time frame art, of course they should be released as is. The only reason they weren't is because we are living in a 'new puritan' age.

We've already had the call to stop playing 'Baby It's Cold outside'. What next? Ban 'Every Breath You Take' for 'promoting' stalking, or 'I Don't Like Mondays' for 'encouraging' school shootings?

What can I say that I haven't said before, and that others haven't said here?

What we experience in the Metoo and diversity movements nowadays is what is called a moral crusade. These are, of course, based on just causes, and I'm glad people take a stand to say that our societies have tolerated sexual abuse for far too long, but moral crusades are, by nature, hysterical and the incredibly strong reactions of the "anti rape lyrics" posts I read here demonstrate it. So if the question is "did the Estate make the right decision", I'd simply say that Comerica is a company whose only purpose here is to generate income, not to make artistic statements or defend freedom of speech, and that avoiding a highly controversial release in the current climate was certainly a wise choice from their perspective. Going against Metoo is very dangerous in the world of entertainment today, and that's why we see actors and directors being blacklisted every day. In a few years or decades, the Metoo moral crusade will be long over and the estate can release these songs without such a fuss. So it's OK, all good things will come in due time.

.

Now I come from a generation (late X; early Y) that always stood for freedom of speech against old bigots who tried to tell us that sexual songs were evil, that role playing game led to suicide, that violent video games or films like Natural Born Killers led to crime or that rap lyrics about killing cops or drug use were to be banned. We spent our entire youth fighting for our right to enjoy works of art and entertainment that our parents and grandparents deemed malicious, our heroes were characters of movies such as Footloose or Dead Poet Society, characters who rebeled against bigotry and authority, kids who just wanted to be entrusted with their capacity to differentiate reality and fiction, freedom and the misuse of freedom. Hell, I'm from a generation that was for the most part disappointed by Prince becoming so "clean" and moralistic in his later lyrics. So it makes me sad to see kids today acting like Tipper Gore used to when we were kids, unable to make the difference between fiction and propaganda, between art and reality. It doesn't matter, this thing is just another fad and it'll be over before we know it. In the meantime there are people who ask that depiction of colonial racism be removed from museums, that books by fascist writers be removed from bookshelves and that Prince songs be locked in the vault forever or arbitrarily edited. They will never succeed on the long run. But we're lucky Bob George was released in P's lifetime because, today, releasing the Black Album would be a total no-go for Comerica.

.

It also breaks my heart to see Prince fans asking for posthumous edits, or in my words, the slaughter of works of art by one of the most important artists of our time for either comfort or moral reasons but, hell, many people don't care about arts or history, they just want to be entertained and the more innofensive the art, the better. As an artist and as a lover of arts, I see things differently than someone who just need to be relaxed after a hard, long day at work. I can respect that.

.

So as always reading some comments here first made me angry, then just made me sad, but I know these songs will be released, as such, eventually, so I don't care. In the meantime the Chinese must be really happy to see that in democratic countries the young, not the old, ask for "morally unacceptable" works of arts to be removed from public sight, because this is the project China has for the world if our political system was to ever fail. Hollywood studios already self-censor blockbusters in order to be able to access the Chinese market. Very sad, but in the end the same line of thoughts, because no matter the reason why you want to ban works of art for moral reasons, the results are always disastrous, and in this case it will do very little to prevent men from raping women. The root of all evil isn't arts. It never was.

.

PS: I've been sexually abused and I have many friends who have, so I don't take the subject lightly.

.

Peace y'all

databank said:

What can I say that I haven't said before, and that others haven't said here?

What we experience in the Metoo and diversity movements nowadays is what is called a moral crusade. These are, of course, based on just causes, and I'm glad people take a stand to say that our societies have tolerated sexual abuse for far too long, but moral crusades are, by nature, hysterical and the incredibly strong reactions of the "anti rape lyrics" posts I read here demonstrate it. So if the question is "did the Estate make the right decision", I'd simply say that Comerica is a company whose only purpose here is to generate income, not to make artistic statements or defend freedom of speech, and that avoiding a highly controversial release in the current climate was certainly a wise choice from their perspective. Going against Metoo is very dangerous in the world of entertainment today, and that's why we see actors and directors being blacklisted every day. In a few years or decades, the Metoo moral crusade will be long over and the estate can release these songs without such a fuss. So it's OK, all good things will come in due time.

.

Now I come from a generation (late X; early Y) that always stood for freedom of speech against old bigots who tried to tell us that sexual songs were evil, that role playing game led to suicide, that violent video games or films like Natural Born Killers led to crime or that rap lyrics about killing cops or drug use were to be banned. We spent our entire youth fighting for our right to enjoy works of art and entertainment that our parents and grandparents deemed malicious, our heroes were characters of movies such as Footloose or Dead Poet Society, characters who rebeled against bigotry and authority, kids who just wanted to be entrusted with their capacity to differentiate reality and fiction, freedom and the misuse of freedom. Hell, I'm from a generation that was for the most part disappointed by Prince becoming so "clean" and moralistic in his later lyrics. So it makes me sad to see kids today acting like Tipper Gore used to when we were kids, unable to make the difference between fiction and propaganda, between art and reality. It doesn't matter, this thing is just another fad and it'll be over before we know it. In the meantime there are people who ask that depiction of colonial racism be removed from museums, that books by fascist writers be removed from bookshelves and that Prince songs be locked in the vault forever or arbitrarily edited. They will never succeed on the long run. But we're lucky Bob George was released in P's lifetime because, today, releasing the Black Album would be a total no-go for Comerica.

.

It also breaks my heart to see Prince fans asking for posthumous edits, or in my words, the slaughter of works of art by one of the most important artists of our time for either comfort or moral reasons but, hell, many people don't care about arts or history, they just want to be entertained and the more innofensive the art, the better. As an artist and as a lover of arts, I see things differently than someone who just need to be relaxed after a hard, long day at work. I can respect that.

.

So as always reading some comments here first made me angry, then just made me sad, but I know these songs will be released, as such, eventually, so I don't care. In the meantime the Chinese must be really happy to see that in democratic countries the young, not the old, ask for "morally unacceptable" works of arts to be removed from public sight, because this is the project China has for the world if our political system was to ever fail. Hollywood studios already self-censor blockbusters in order to be able to access the Chinese market. Very sad, but in the end the same line of thoughts, because no matter the reason why you want to ban works of art for moral reasons, the results are always disastrous, and in this case it will do very little to prevent men from raping women. The root of all evil isn't arts. It never was.

.

PS: I've been sexually abused and I have many friends who have, so I don't take the subject lightly.

.

Peace y'all

Right on! Well said!

Fans asking for edits are not 'full' fans. They want to leave out some of the stuff, i.e. they do not like things.

Is this a thing because of people getting older?

20 years ago one did not hear these edit requests...

udo said: