BartVanHemelen said:

JorisE73 said:

With this new release I enjoy it (but I really want my CD/LP instead of digital becuase I think holding and reading the cover or liner notes is part of my enjoyment of it.)

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I hate to say this, but there are lots of signs indicating that the regular releases won't have much in the way of a booklet, and that only the deluxe edition contains lots of essays and liner notes etc. And that set isn't getting released until late July. And I wouldn't be surprised if much of the contents of that set's liner notes have already been revealed via the interviews with Peggy McCreary and Susannah et al.

It beats me why they won't hire Duane as a consultant for both content and liner note. And I wish they'd explain in detail what was done to each track in terms of restoration, mix, possible Frankenstein interventions, etc. If they were fully transparant about this, one could disagree with their choices but at least everyone would know what they purchase.

databank said:

BartVanHemelen said:

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I hate to say this, but there are lots of signs indicating that the regular releases won't have much in the way of a booklet, and that only the deluxe edition contains lots of essays and liner notes etc. And that set isn't getting released until late July. And I wouldn't be surprised if much of the contents of that set's liner notes have already been revealed via the interviews with Peggy McCreary and Susannah et al.

It beats me why they won't hire Duane as a consultant for both content and liner note. And I wish they'd explain in detail what was done to each track in terms of restoration, mix, possible Frankenstein interventions, etc. If they were fully transparant about this, one could disagree with their choices but at least everyone would know what they purchase.

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databank said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

I hate to say this, but there are lots of signs indicating that the regular releases won't have much in the way of a booklet, and that only the deluxe edition contains lots of essays and liner notes etc. And that set isn't getting released until late July. And I wouldn't be surprised if much of the contents of that set's liner notes have already been revealed via the interviews with Peggy McCreary and Susannah et al.

It beats me why they won't hire Duane as a consultant for both content and liner note. And I wish they'd explain in detail what was done to each track in terms of restoration, mix, possible Frankenstein interventions, etc. If they were fully transparant about this, one could disagree with their choices but at least everyone would know what they purchase.

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Because they are a bank. They are suits who don't know anything about music nor do they care much. I keep having to remind people (not you, but many others) that Michael Howe is NOT running the estate, Comerica Bank does. Even the heirs aren't getting much say in what's going on, let alone outside experts.

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The administrators' mindset is most probably something like "it's a massive estate of this Purple Rain guy, with a huge inventory of tapes none of us know much about and it would cost a fortune to pay experts to explore, so let's just try to find something that can be marketed as from the same era as Purple Rain and make some quick buck".

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For those that doesn’t like the mix done to “Holly Rock”. Can you explain a little about what aspects you are not agree with?

Sorry I didn't read all posts, but:

I just listened to Originals, my first impression is very positive of course.

Without any doubt, my favorites are:

1/Jungle Love: I love this version!

2/Noon Rendezvous: so glad to get Prince’s version from 84’!

3/Baby, You’re A Trip: killing version as it is different (at the end) from what we heard be4.

4/The Glamorous Life.

carlos00 said:

For those that doesn’t like the mix done to “Holly Rock”. Can you explain a little about what aspects you are not agree with?

It's not about "like", it's about authenticity. Neversin is the only one here (that we know of) who has the earlier draft of Holly Rock and most likely it has to do with the sax and other overdubs that he believes, based on that tape and the recording logs he's aware of, were borrowed from the final Sheila mix. He said "too much to list", maybe at a later date he will elaborate.

databank said:

carlos00 said:

For those that doesn’t like the mix done to “Holly Rock”. Can you explain a little about what aspects you are not agree with?

It's not about "like", it's about authenticity. Neversin is the only one here (that we know of) who has the earlier draft of Holly Rock and most likely it has to do with the sax and other overdubs that he believes, based on that tape and the recording logs he's aware of, were borrowed from the final Sheila mix. He said "too much to list", maybe at a later date he will elaborate.

Thanks for the answer. Now i understand. Maybe Neversin can tell us more about it.

carlos00 said:

databank said:

It's not about "like", it's about authenticity. Neversin is the only one here (that we know of) who has the earlier draft of Holly Rock and most likely it has to do with the sax and other overdubs that he believes, based on that tape and the recording logs he's aware of, were borrowed from the final Sheila mix. He said "too much to list", maybe at a later date he will elaborate.

Thanks for the answer. Now i understand. Maybe Neversin can tell us more about it.

Yes. Just to be totally clear, I think we all enjoy the record and that everyone would be happy with it if we were certain that each and every track is authentic. The only problem that we have is that there is much doubt, near total certainty when it comes to NC2U, about the authenticity of some of the tracks' mixes, i.e. it appears that some mixes are mashups of the final mix with Prince vocals and later overdubs from the released version, added to the rougher Prince mix to make them more radio-friendly, or posthumous edits to make the song shorter. There are also serious doubts about the Our Destiny/Roadhouse Garden crossfade on PR Deluxe and we know for a fact that the edit of Let's Work on 4ever is a fake edit, not the original 7''.

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Now I'm gonna try to get to the bottom of this, and I'm not the only one working on it, but it will take a few weeks to have a more complete picture. Believe me, nothing would make me happier than to get definitive evidence that we got it all wrong and that each and every song is faithful to what Prince left in the vault And maybe indeed we'll realize that it's not as bad as we think. I sure hope so

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[Edited 6/13/19 7:11am]

BartVanHemelen said:

IstenSzek said:

songs like 'coco boys' and 'come elektra tuesday' or 'red scarlet' etc. it's like we never even got them
in the first place. they seem to have fallen into a big black hole

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Probably because they were part of this extremely large leak/release. It's like when you enter a store to buy cookies and have to choose between dozens or even hundreds of options: whatever you pick, you'll always end up thinking that you might have missed out on something else that was better.

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There's also the fragmentation. You need to invest a lot of time to check which leaked version is the best one, to compile a playlist, etc. This involves looking through decades of bootlegs, an uphill battle if you haven't properly curated such a collection. Ideally fans could collaborate on this, but due to the legal hassle this is impossible.

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What is missing is a properly curated set of releases that would present such songs in their proper context etc.

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Exactly. I'm still regularly listening to those BFTP releases from 2017. They're full of gems. They're also a mess. Mixing excellent outtakes with rehashed stuff. All out of order/context, of course. So I tend to listen to stuff from those sets, because they were released relatively recently (2 years ago) and I still remember them. That's also a problem with non-album tracks. If it were not for fan-made compilations, I would never listen to those tracks ("Menstrual Cycle" anybody?).

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Another problem is Prince.org and the fact that it's broken on many levels (the message editor, the search feature, etc.). Interesting messages get lost among many other messages. Discussions about particular tracks get lost in general threads about releases. Etc.

databank said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

I hate to say this, but there are lots of signs indicating that the regular releases won't have much in the way of a booklet, and that only the deluxe edition contains lots of essays and liner notes etc. And that set isn't getting released until late July. And I wouldn't be surprised if much of the contents of that set's liner notes have already been revealed via the interviews with Peggy McCreary and Susannah et al.

It beats me why they won't hire Duane as a consultant for both content and liner note.

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Wouldn't be surprised if Duane doesn't want that. Would block him from writing more books etc.

BartVanHemelen said:

databank said:

It beats me why they won't hire Duane as a consultant for both content and liner note.

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Wouldn't be surprised if Duane doesn't want that. Would block him from writing more books etc.

Of course. I was in no way implying that Duane would want that. I don't know whether he would. I just meant that if I was the Estate (despite being a bank as Kares pointed out), I'd want to have both former engineers/collaborators expertise and that sort of hardcore fan, academic researcher expertise.

I'd like to see Neversin consult. Maybe then, we'd get 'tha sheeee-it'!

sulls said:

I'd like to see Neversin consult. Maybe then, we'd get 'tha sheeee-it'!

Yeah - because you can really count on a pedant to get the ball rolling.

I've made a few adjustment to my Prince Originals Playlist (songs written by Prince, performed by others). In case you wanna listen/follow, critique, fact check, give suggesions, etc. please do! Hopefully more songs will be available for streaming soon. I'll continue to update. Enjoy

Spotify: http://bit.ly/WrittenByPrince

Apple Music: https://apple.co/2J03Ozi

databank said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

I hate to say this, but there are lots of signs indicating that the regular releases won't have much in the way of a booklet, and that only the deluxe edition contains lots of essays and liner notes etc. And that set isn't getting released until late July. And I wouldn't be surprised if much of the contents of that set's liner notes have already been revealed via the interviews with Peggy McCreary and Susannah et al.

It beats me why they won't hire Duane as a consultant for both content and liner note. And I wish they'd explain in detail what was done to each track in terms of restoration, mix, possible Frankenstein interventions, etc. If they were fully transparant about this, one could disagree with their choices but at least everyone would know what they purchase.

There is a cloud of dysfunction with everything Prince related. Based on the series of awful decisions, not hiring a Prince expert makes perfect sense. The single fact that Londell McMuffin was hired for ANYTHING made me laugh, and it was hysterical when McMuffin had no idea what songs he was negotiating or what the proper deal was. Of course, he actually made some money, or seemingly has... I'm sure those that are working on it have some bizarre idea that it is worth millions, and they are going to release tons of multi-million selling albums. Sure, us diehards will buy everything, but there is no cash cow. Only a careful, well-thought out plan will bring profit from the vault. I feel qualified to be a consultant, but I'm honest enough to say Duane would be more qualified, as well as tons of org members who would be as well. Still, I'm selfish enough to think I'd be an awesome hire...I'd be willing to do nothing but work on the vault 8 hours a day....

What is real sad, is the historical significance of the vault may just end up getting lost in all the madness.

carlos00 said:

After seeing the different opinions expressed in the forum by really expert users in this field, I have the feeling that I’m missing something.

The new mixes are giving a lot to talk about, and songs like Holly Rock are not liking in terms of the final mix. Someone who has analyzed it, please, can shed some light on what specific aspects cause that bad impression?

Personally I am enjoying the mix a lot, where the amount of tracks can seem a little chaotic but it is funky as hell. I also appreciate the increase on bass that was usually not common in the recordings of that era.

Thanks

For the most part, it is an awesome release, but since some are bringing up tampering with the recordings, I think it is a distinct possibility. I'd say 55% chance. Still, they could be somewhat unaltered. The record levels are way too high, though. Engineering to follow trends for how 22 year olds want their music brickwalled and distorted to death makes no sense. 95% of the sales will be 40 and up.

rdhull said:

Strive said:

It's strange. Within a hour of Originals releasing, there were people dismissing the entire release. So many gems have dropped in the bootleg scene since Prince died and it's all "yawn, what else you got?" the same day it comes out.

Do people not give a disc multiple listens anymore?

(That said, Michael Howe is a dope who's in way over his head but it seems like he's learning while on the job. Let's hope he continues to grow.)

They should release hardly anything because no matter what, people don't appreciate it. Folks were clamoring for the long vers of Computer Blue and it gets release and folks are on to the next one etc. It doesn't matter if it's Howe or BVH who was charging the release content. Once it's released, folk are like you said, on to the next one without giving songs or albums time to marinate or be appreciated. I've meant to make a post about this for quit some time but didnt have the cajones as I knew Id get locked and mocked lol. Prince fans are the absolute worse. And this has nothing much to do with whats out there and in what quality etc. They could release Wally in its original version and a week later people would be whining about 'whats next gimme gimme" lol.

One thing is for sure. They will likely make sure they NEVER fill up a cd with 79 or so minutes. And they will likely do a hack job of mastering. It is what it is. I'm happy with Originals, but it could have been better. Industry types know legacy artist's fans buy box sets, but the estate and the powers that be do not know this.

[Edited 6/13/19 11:35am]

stillwaiting said:

rdhull said:

They should release hardly anything because no matter what, people don't appreciate it. Folks were clamoring for the long vers of Computer Blue and it gets release and folks are on to the next one etc. It doesn't matter if it's Howe or BVH who was charging the release content. Once it's released, folk are like you said, on to the next one without giving songs or albums time to marinate or be appreciated. I've meant to make a post about this for quit some time but didnt have the cajones as I knew Id get locked and mocked lol. Prince fans are the absolute worse. And this has nothing much to do with whats out there and in what quality etc. They could release Wally in its original version and a week later people would be whining about 'whats next gimme gimme" lol.

One thing is for sure. They will likely make sure they NEVER fill up a cd with 79 or so minutes. And they will likely do a hack job of mastering. It is what it is. I'm happy with Originals, but it could have been better. Industry types know legacy artists buy box sets, but the estate and the powers that be do not know this.

"Legacy artists" don't buy anything when they're dead.

(Or did you mean something else?)

Genesia said:

stillwaiting said:

One thing is for sure. They will likely make sure they NEVER fill up a cd with 79 or so minutes. And they will likely do a hack job of mastering. It is what it is. I'm happy with Originals, but it could have been better. Industry types know legacy artists buy box sets, but the estate and the powers that be do not know this.

"Legacy artists" don't buy anything when they're dead.

(Or did you mean something else?)

Good catch. I meant Legacy artist's fans spend tons on box sets. I can't stand Pink Floyd, but their box sets did good numbers, as did Paul McCartney, U2, etc.

SquirrelMeat said:

I’m really enjoying it. For me, the positives far outweigh the negatives.

Sure it’s really annoying they put the edited versions on there (I’m guessing this is deliberate for future sales, as there is room on the disc), and the vocal mix is a little low on tracks like Manic and Make-up, but I doubt that would be a deliberate act by the engineers/producers.

But the vocals on You’re My Love, Noon Rendezvous and Gigolos are a delight.

As for the ‘Frankenstein’ version argument, it’s too early to tell if this is even an issue. This issue would go away if estate simply provided technical information, plus, untouched versions may come at a later date, in more hardcore comprehensive sets.

If you look at various mainstream archive releases, it’s not uncommon for parts from various takes or mix downs to be combined; The most obvious being the Beatles anthology. They made a better version using individual unreleased takes and mixes and combining them. But they were clear in the notes what they had done.

If you know the original take/demo versions (For example, ‘You’ve got to hide your love away’ or ‘Strawberry Fields’), then you know the result on Anthology is superior, but it’s not an archival record of ‘as it was recorded’. Interestingly, it was the band members that were happy to sign off these alternatives. Who’s to say Prince wouldn’t have been the same?

Equally, I didn’t have a problem with the MJ’s Xscape approach, because they made the originals available.

Both these approaches are fine, if they are up front about it.

I love the information ‘elite’ collectors have provided on the org over the years, but I do think their argument out legacy destruction is misguided. I think judgement gets clouded when the exclusivity of their ‘stash’ is eroded by official releases.

Lets take ‘Manic Monday’ as an example. The new album’s purpose is to let people hear Prince singing the song he gave to the Bangles. It was never sold as ‘here’s the demo/take 1/final take’. The job of the producers is to make it as sonically pleasing as possible, not to pander to completists who want to argue over the one (and often incomplete) reference point they have.

Ironically, the best way to ensure that the labels put stuff out untouched without the wraith of the fan base, is to ensure the fan base already knows what it should sound like, and not hoarded by a few. Releasing snippets to try and prove a point doesn’t prove a label wrong. It’s a pretentious assumption that their version of events, and how the archive should be handled, must be correct, and sounds more like a school yard argument.

If you want people to know how original mixes are sounded, let them free, rather than lecture those who enjoy what’s put out.

I find it amusing when ‘elite’ traders get annoyed with peers who ‘sell’ tracks to bootleggers; as if they have broken a code. Prince is dead, and he ain’t coming after the ex-employees and traders that share the rare stuff.

The stance is hypocritical. The people who supplied and handle the elite material are breaking the very code Prince expected people to uphold. But when the table is turned, and the exclusivity of their stash is threatened, they get defensive.

If the ‘legacy’ is being eroded, the elite traders are as much to blame as the estate, as they are criticising from the shadows, rather than blowing the issue out in the open.

If an elite trader tells me a track has been altered but won’t share it; verses a bootlegger, and now, the estate who will provide me with ‘a’ version, I’m going to side with the bootlegger and estate every time.

One side is giving me a rant, the other is giving me Prince music. I’ll side with the music.

Posts like this one revive my love for this place thank you for saying that!

Oh and "Wouldn't U Love To Love Me" was thee BIGGEST surprise. He really sounded happy in that one and dare I say, its becoming a tie with the original too

Genesia said:

https://rep.repubblica.it/pwa/generale/2019/06/10/news/prince-228462979/

It´s for subscribers ... I suppose M. Howe will tell the same as always ... does someone have it?

ufoclub said:

BTW, if they were gonna include LTWBD anyway and go as far as 1991, am I the only one to think it'd have been funny as hell to include P's mix of Donald Trump (Black Version)? I mean seriously, they have to put that out while Trump is president

Kares said:

databank said:

It beats me why they won't hire Duane as a consultant for both content and liner note. And I wish they'd explain in detail what was done to each track in terms of restoration, mix, possible Frankenstein interventions, etc. If they were fully transparant about this, one could disagree with their choices but at least everyone would know what they purchase.

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Because they are a bank. They are suits who don't know anything about music nor do they care much. I keep having to remind people (not you, but many others) that Michael Howe is NOT running the estate, Comerica Bank does. Even the heirs aren't getting much say in what's going on, let alone outside experts.

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The administrators' mindset is most probably something like "it's a massive estate of this Purple Rain guy, with a huge inventory of tapes none of us know much about and it would cost a fortune to pay experts to explore, so let's just try to find something that can be marketed as from the same era as Purple Rain and make some quick buck".

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not too sure if I agree with you on this one. The marketing campaign has actually been excellent which suggests those involved at least have some grasp of what is required.

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

not too sure if I agree with you on this one. The marketing campaign has actually been excellent which suggests those involved at least have some grasp of what is required.

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Marketing = Warners. But it does look like they got a decent budget for it (in-person interviews with Peggy McCreary et al., ads in prominent places,...).

databank said:

this is a nice collection of good and interesting songs that do NOT belong together .. some quirky intro like "dearly beloved" or "dear dad" is missing from a difinitive prince album .. which makes this a compilation and not an album .. the lack of consistant sound quality does not help either

my hope is that this is for purposes of introducing us to more era centric expanded editions .. my fear is that this is the best they could come up with as a cohesive sellable album .. and we are in for more releases built from scraps (when we know there are fully mastered and sequenced albums ready to go)

You're my love has a poor vocal performance I doubt prince would want in the public ... Wouldn't U love 2 love me belongs on an earlier comp .. manic monday, love thy will be done sound too good compared to the other demos .. they could be singles to promote albums better suited to their era and sonic quality .. they are a bit wasted on this comp

nothing compares 2 u sounds a bit out of place due to drum tone not really being radio friendly .. tho enjoyable enough in the context of the family period

what remains all works well together .. even the later shiela songs fit with the early jungle love vibe enough not to distract ... there was a missed opportunity to include screams of passion .. which would have tied NC2U to the set better .. and also has a bit of a potential single quality to it

my current play list

Sex Shooter

Make Up

100 MPH

Gigiloos

Jungle Love

Noon Rendezvous

glamourous life

dear michaelangelo

holly rock

manic monday

screams of passion

nothing compares 2 u

hopefully the extended and raw versions are planned for the deluxe expanded sets and this is really just a teaser for bigger releases .. if we are just getting one of these wierd compilations every year its gonna be rough to make a cohesive almost prince like album out of whatever they give us

come to think of it .. road house garden was already released so we might not ever get that album as intended ... record store day would be a great way to release some of prince intended mock up albums that never occurred .. supposedly there are a couple time and vanity albums plus roadhouse garden camille dream factory .. the original crystal ball .. a couple of revolution albums have been alluded to ...


i guess in general I love all these songs but wish they would try to make compilations more era centric and cohesive and give it more of a prince album feel .. i think they would make more money that way too ... like throw love thy will be done on with some graffiti diamonds out takes .. use love as the single to promote basically a new prince album .. do that with each of these songs .. having jungle love as the public selling point on an album of time era prince out takes has great public / hardcore fan crossover potential ... throwing all these songs on one album is like shooting their whole load on one record as far as wider public interest goes ... each of these well known songs should be used to lead the general public to an era of music they have not heard .. people who love manic monday might not be into sheila e or the time .. but they might love an album of around the world in a day out takes

databank said:

BTW, if they were gonna include LTWBD anyway and go as far as 1991, am I the only one to think it'd have been funny as hell to include P's mix of Donald Trump (Black Version)? I mean seriously, they have to put that out while Trump is president

I first begged Morris to play Donald Trump(Black Version) in 1997, then in 1998, then in 2004. In 2016, I begged him NEVER to play it. This time Morris Ignored me

_________________________________________________________________________________

Clarification: though I would love to hear the song live, obviously it will never happen...so Morris ignoring me simply meant, he acted as if I was not in the room...which I probably deserved, but I can say of all the people in the Purple family, Morris has always been very kind to me, not even the slightest bad moment.)

[Edited 6/14/19 11:10am]