Wait just a minute disch, please don't claim to know what I am looking for or what I should be looking for. The more avenues that 1 researches the better.

disch said:

yes I read all about sodium channels last week. Not going through all that again. It's not a question of the links being "right" or "wrong"; it's that they don't dicuss what you're looking for (evidence that swallowing lidocaine has desireable effects that opioid users in particular seek out).

-

Anyway, why were most the pills separated? I've stated my theory a minumum of 3 times in the last week: that's simply the way they came to him. He got his "vicodins" at different times and/or from different sources, and the composition of the batches was different. (And to be totally accurate: They weren't all separated. In one of the 4 bottles -- I believe it was one of the vitamin bottle -- the pills that were tested contained different chemical compositions).

PennyPurple said:

It has to do with the sodium currents.

I don't have all day to explain it to you, you asked for the links and I gave you the links that I am researching at this point. They could be right, they could be wrong, I'm still doing the research.

If all the pills looked the same to him, why were they seperated out? Because he knew what he was doing.

Most reports in the literature have shown that the effects of opioid analgesics are primarily mediated by μ-opioid receptor (MOR), whereas other potential targets of opioid analgesics have not been thoroughly characterized. In this study, we found that extracellular application of morphine, fentanyl or oxycodone, which are all considered to be MOR agonists, at relatively high concentrations, but not endogenous μ-opioid peptides, produced a concentration-dependent suppression of sodium currents in cultured thalamic neurons. These effects of opioids were not affected by either a MOR antagonist naloxone or a deletion of MOR gene. Among these opioids, fentanyl strongly suppressed sodium currents to the same degree as lidocaine, and both morphine and oxycodone slightly but significantly reduced sodium currents when they were present extracellularly. In contrast, the intracellular application of morphine, but not oxycodone, fentanyl or lidocaine, reduced sodium currents. These results suggest that morphine, fentanyl and oxycodone each produce the MOR-independent suppression of sodium currents by distinct mechanisms in thalamic neurons.

[Edited 7/10/18 8:36am]

TrevorAyer said:

I don't think you can take much of what the prince circle says as fact. Most of them either participated, helped him get drugs, or at very least knew and were part of keeping his habits private. Saying too much truth only implicates themselves. And this goes all the way back to the early days up until the present. If prince took a lot of drugs to run the hours he did, so did the people around him trying to keep up. They are all talking out their ass trying to preserve their own image.

i think this has to be in some respects a bit true.

Ok -- So now there's "lidocaine regimen," involving swallowing lidocaine piills, that's passed among opioid users? I'd ask you to provide ANY sort of link to something explaining this "regimen" but I kind of know where this will lead.

-

Bodhitheblackdog said:

PennyPurple said:

It has to do with the sodium currents.

I don't have all day to explain it to you, you asked for the links and I gave you the links that I am researching at this point. They could be right, they could be wrong, I'm still doing the research.

If all the pills looked the same to him, why were they seperated out? Because he knew what he was doing.

Most reports in the literature have shown that the effects of opioid analgesics are primarily mediated by μ-opioid receptor (MOR), whereas other potential targets of opioid analgesics have not been thoroughly characterized. In this study, we found that extracellular application of morphine, fentanyl or oxycodone, which are all considered to be MOR agonists, at relatively high concentrations, but not endogenous μ-opioid peptides, produced a concentration-dependent suppression of sodium currents in cultured thalamic neurons. These effects of opioids were not affected by either a MOR antagonist naloxone or a deletion of MOR gene. Among these opioids, fentanyl strongly suppressed sodium currents to the same degree as lidocaine, and both morphine and oxycodone slightly but significantly reduced sodium currents when they were present extracellularly. In contrast, the intracellular application of morphine, but not oxycodone, fentanyl or lidocaine, reduced sodium currents. These results suggest that morphine, fentanyl and oxycodone each produce the MOR-independent suppression of sodium currents by distinct mechanisms in thalamic neurons.

[Edited 7/10/18 8:36am]

Thank you, Penny, this mirrors my research and indicates to me that 1) he knew he had a major addiction, 2) he was very smart and knowledgable about the effect his CHOSEN drugs were having on his body...he really understood the metabolic and brain processes, 3)he was in contact with other addicts or suppliers who had walked him through the lidocaine regine and 4) he was trying desperately to wean and control his addiction himself on the down low. Independent, stubborn and controlling to the end.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

PennyPurple said:

It has to do with the sodium currents.

I don't have all day to explain it to you, you asked for the links and I gave you the links that I am researching at this point. They could be right, they could be wrong, I'm still doing the research.

If all the pills looked the same to him, why were they seperated out? Because he knew what he was doing.

Most reports in the literature have shown that the effects of opioid analgesics are primarily mediated by μ-opioid receptor (MOR), whereas other potential targets of opioid analgesics have not been thoroughly characterized. In this study, we found that extracellular application of morphine, fentanyl or oxycodone, which are all considered to be MOR agonists, at relatively high concentrations, but not endogenous μ-opioid peptides, produced a concentration-dependent suppression of sodium currents in cultured thalamic neurons. These effects of opioids were not affected by either a MOR antagonist naloxone or a deletion of MOR gene. Among these opioids, fentanyl strongly suppressed sodium currents to the same degree as lidocaine, and both morphine and oxycodone slightly but significantly reduced sodium currents when they were present extracellularly. In contrast, the intracellular application of morphine, but not oxycodone, fentanyl or lidocaine, reduced sodium currents. These results suggest that morphine, fentanyl and oxycodone each produce the MOR-independent suppression of sodium currents by distinct mechanisms in thalamic neurons.

[Edited 7/10/18 8:36am]

Thank you, Penny, this mirrors my research and indicates to me that 1) he knew he had a major addiction, 2) he was very smart and knowledgable about the effect his CHOSEN drugs were having on his body...he really understood the metabolic and brain processes, 3)he was in contact with other addicts or suppliers who had walked him through the lidocaine regine and 4) he was trying desperately to wean and control his addiction himself on the down low. Independent, stubborn and controlling to the end.

i think P was smart but not a scientist. no disrespect to his intelligence i just don't think he

was brainsy in this area.

purplefam99 said:

TrevorAyer said:

I don't think you can take much of what the prince circle says as fact. Most of them either participated, helped him get drugs, or at very least knew and were part of keeping his habits private. Saying too much truth only implicates themselves. And this goes all the way back to the early days up until the present. If prince took a lot of drugs to run the hours he did, so did the people around him trying to keep up. They are all talking out their ass trying to preserve their own image.

i think this has to be in some respects a bit true.

I have always contended that the people around him knew about his drug use. While he was alive, they didn't talk to save themselves from his wrath and to keep on the payroll. Today, they don't speak to keep on the post-mortem payroll. I don't think it has anything to do with maintaining his privacy - he died and we know it was due to drug use. The cat is out of the bag.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

PennyPurple said:

It has to do with the sodium currents.

I don't have all day to explain it to you, you asked for the links and I gave you the links that I am researching at this point. They could be right, they could be wrong, I'm still doing the research.

If all the pills looked the same to him, why were they seperated out? Because he knew what he was doing.

Most reports in the literature have shown that the effects of opioid analgesics are primarily mediated by μ-opioid receptor (MOR), whereas other potential targets of opioid analgesics have not been thoroughly characterized. In this study, we found that extracellular application of morphine, fentanyl or oxycodone, which are all considered to be MOR agonists, at relatively high concentrations, but not endogenous μ-opioid peptides, produced a concentration-dependent suppression of sodium currents in cultured thalamic neurons. These effects of opioids were not affected by either a MOR antagonist naloxone or a deletion of MOR gene. Among these opioids, fentanyl strongly suppressed sodium currents to the same degree as lidocaine, and both morphine and oxycodone slightly but significantly reduced sodium currents when they were present extracellularly. In contrast, the intracellular application of morphine, but not oxycodone, fentanyl or lidocaine, reduced sodium currents. These results suggest that morphine, fentanyl and oxycodone each produce the MOR-independent suppression of sodium currents by distinct mechanisms in thalamic neurons.

[Edited 7/10/18 8:36am]

Thank you, Penny, this mirrors my research and indicates to me that 1) he knew he had a major addiction, 2) he was very smart and knowledgable about the effect his CHOSEN drugs were having on his body...he really understood the metabolic and brain processes, 3)he was in contact with other addicts or suppliers who had walked him through the lidocaine regime and 4) he was trying desperately to wean and control his addiction himself on the down low. Independent, stubborn and controlling to the end.

[Edited 7/10/18 9:01am]

Yes, I tend to agree Bodhi.

disch said:

Ok -- So now there's "lidocaine regimen," involving swallowing lidocaine piills, that's passed among opioid users? I'd ask you to provide ANY sort of link to something explaining this "regimen" but I kind of know where this will lead.

-

There you go disch, asking for links again. but when ANY sort of link is provided, it's not up to your standards and why should anyone keep taking the time to provide links, when you aren't even up to debating the topic?

1Sasha said:

purplefam99 said:

i think this has to be in some respects a bit true.

I have always contended that the people around him knew about his drug use. While he was alive, they didn't talk to save themselves from his wrath and to keep on the payroll. Today, they don't speak to keep on the post-mortem payroll. I don't think it has anything to do with maintaining his privacy - he died and we know it was due to drug use. The cat is out of the bag.

Yes, the cat is out of the bag, and they show no shame. $$

PennyPurple said:

1Sasha said:

I have always contended that the people around him knew about his drug use. While he was alive, they didn't talk to save themselves from his wrath and to keep on the payroll. Today, they don't speak to keep on the post-mortem payroll. I don't think it has anything to do with maintaining his privacy - he died and we know it was due to drug use. The cat is out of the bag.

Yes, the cat is out of the bag, and they show no shame. $$

PennyPurple, we don't see any interviewers asking them the hard questions. Yes, they all say we didn't know. But where are the journalists questioning, asking how they couldn't have known? No one is cracking. And who is digging for the dirt to find out what those years were really like.

Why is it unreasonable to ask for links -- and then for me to actually read the content of the links and consider what they say?

-

I myself really LIKE it when people provide links -- whether to the investigation docs, if that's what they're referencing, or to other documents if they're talking about related issues. I take the time to provide links in most of my posts. I dont assume that people should just "take my word for it." I would love it if people actually read the link I posted and gave thoughtful input as to why the information is relevant or not.

-

As for even "debating the topic," that's what I was doing when, for example, I read your links and noted that they didn't actually address the topic being discussed right before that -- if lidocaine is an effective drug when administered orally.

-

If you're looking for me to apologize for being a bit of a stickler for sources and evidence, and for actually reading and considering the links that other people take the time to post, I'm not going to do that.

PennyPurple said:

disch said:

Ok -- So now there's "lidocaine regimen," involving swallowing lidocaine piills, that's passed among opioid users? I'd ask you to provide ANY sort of link to something explaining this "regimen" but I kind of know where this will lead.

-

There you go disch, asking for links again. but when ANY sort of link is provided, it's not up to your standards and why should anyone keep taking the time to provide links, when you aren't even up to debating the topic?

1Sasha said:

PennyPurple said:

Yes, the cat is out of the bag, and they show no shame. $$

PennyPurple, we don't see any interviewers asking them the hard questions. Yes, they all say we didn't know. But where are the journalists questioning, asking how they couldn't have known? No one is cracking. And who is digging for the dirt to find out what those years were really like.

That's what I'm saying too. They need to start asking the hard questions. Casey Rain does interviews for the Violet Reality and he doesn't even ask the hard questions, and he is a member here.

disch said:

yes I read all about sodium channels last week. Not going through all that again. It's not a question of the links being "right" or "wrong"; it's that they don't dicuss what you're looking for (evidence that swallowing lidocaine has desireable effects that opioid users in particular seek out).

-

Anyway, why were most the pills separated? I've stated my theory a minumum of 3 times in the last week: that's simply the way they came to him. He got his "vicodins" at different times and/or from different sources, and the composition of the batches was different. (And to be totally accurate: They weren't all separated. In one of the 4 bottles -- I believe it was one of the vitamin bottle -- the pills that were tested contained different chemical compositions).

PennyPurple said:

It has to do with the sodium currents.

I don't have all day to explain it to you, you asked for the links and I gave you the links that I am researching at this point. They could be right, they could be wrong, I'm still doing the research.

If all the pills looked the same to him, why were they seperated out? Because he knew what he was doing.

Most reports in the literature have shown that the effects of opioid analgesics are primarily mediated by μ-opioid receptor (MOR), whereas other potential targets of opioid analgesics have not been thoroughly characterized. In this study, we found that extracellular application of morphine, fentanyl or oxycodone, which are all considered to be MOR agonists, at relatively high concentrations, but not endogenous μ-opioid peptides, produced a concentration-dependent suppression of sodium currents in cultured thalamic neurons. These effects of opioids were not affected by either a MOR antagonist naloxone or a deletion of MOR gene. Among these opioids, fentanyl strongly suppressed sodium currents to the same degree as lidocaine, and both morphine and oxycodone slightly but significantly reduced sodium currents when they were present extracellularly. In contrast, the intracellular application of morphine, but not oxycodone, fentanyl or lidocaine, reduced sodium currents. These results suggest that morphine, fentanyl and oxycodone each produce the MOR-independent suppression of sodium currents by distinct mechanisms in thalamic neurons.

[Edited 7/10/18 8:36am]

This article is looking at lidocaine effects on sodium current effects in cultured rat thalamic neurons. It doesn't speak one way or the other to what lidocaine will do in intact human or rat brain. We do know that oral fentanyl is effective in counteracting pain in a way that oral lidocaine is not.

[Edited 7/10/18 9:44am]

purplefam99 said:

paulludvig said:

PennyPurple said: I have never heard anything about those incidences. Source?

i never heard about the naked one until he passed. was there chatter here on the org about it back then?

Not sure about chatter then, but it was mentioned in the investigative files, believe it was one of his assistants. Do not have time to search as I am late to work.

1Sasha said:

PennyPurple said:

Yes, the cat is out of the bag, and they show no shame. $$

PennyPurple, we don't see any interviewers asking them the hard questions. Yes, they all say we didn't know. But where are the journalists questioning, asking how they couldn't have known? No one is cracking. And who is digging for the dirt to find out what those years were really like.

Sadly, this is where our fandom is butting up against the reality of how Prince was viewed in the past 20 years by the culture at large. He didn't self-destruct 'young enough' like Janis, Jimi or Jim (Belushi and Morrison) to make him a 'lost' legend, forever young...he died surrounded by 20 somethings who were rumored to be giving him 'business advice', looking frail and unhealthy (though many were in denial about his downward spiral) and he died alone in the elevator of his 53,000 sq, foot bolthole where he kept his costumes, guitars, dusty cars , pills and secrets...The serious books are coming, and they won't paint a pretty picture. True Prince fans...prepare to be skeeved out.

rednblue said:

disch said:

yes I read all about sodium channels last week. Not going through all that again. It's not a question of the links being "right" or "wrong"; it's that they don't dicuss what you're looking for (evidence that swallowing lidocaine has desireable effects that opioid users in particular seek out).

-

Anyway, why were most the pills separated? I've stated my theory a minumum of 3 times in the last week: that's simply the way they came to him. He got his "vicodins" at different times and/or from different sources, and the composition of the batches was different. (And to be totally accurate: They weren't all separated. In one of the 4 bottles -- I believe it was one of the vitamin bottle -- the pills that were tested contained different chemical compositions).

This article is looking at lidocaine effects on sodium current effects in cultured rat thalamic neurons. It doesn't speak one way or the other to what lidocaine will do in intact human brain. We do know that oral fentanyl is effective in counteracting pain in a way that oral lidocaine is not.

Here's a more detailed description: "Thalamic neuron/glia co-cultures were grown as follows. The thalamic region was obtained from Sprague-Dawley rat (Tokyo Laboratory Animals Science, Tokyo, Japan) embryos on embryonic day 17 or MOR−/− mice [16] at postnatal 1 day, minced, and treated with papain (9 U/ml, Worthington Biochemical, Lakewood, NJ, USA). After being treated with enzyme at 37 °C for 15 min, cells were seeded on poly-l-lysine-coated coverslips at a density of 2 × 106 cells/cm3. The cells were maintained for 10-14 days in Dulbecco’s modified Eagle’s medium (Invitrogen, Grand Island, NY, USA) supplemented with 10 % precolostrum newborn calf serum (Invitrogen), 10 U/ml penicillin and 10 μg/ml streptomycin."

Perhaps the good doctor (The anesthesiologist) would care to weigh in regarding the lidocaine discussion? Sorry, running late or I would have searched his org name.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

1Sasha said:

PennyPurple, we don't see any interviewers asking them the hard questions. Yes, they all say we didn't know. But where are the journalists questioning, asking how they couldn't have known? No one is cracking. And who is digging for the dirt to find out what those years were really like.

Sadly, this is where our fandom is butting up against the reality of how Prince was viewed in the past 20 years by the culture at large. He didn't self-destruct 'young enough' like Janis, Jimi or Jim (Belushi and Morrison) to make him a 'lost' legend, forever young...he died surrounded by 20 somethings who were rumored to be giving him 'business advice', looking frail and unhealthy (though many were in denial about his downward spiral) and he died alone in the elevator of his 53,000 sq, foot bolthole where he kept his costumes, guitars, dusty cars , pills and secrets...The serious books are coming, and they won't paint a pretty picture. True Prince fans...prepare to be skeeved out.

Pretty true...sigh. But I know we all still love him. Maybe others see the digging as a sign of disrespect.

I don't as I do not think there is anything wrong with truth-seeking. I think we are looking to humanize him into a 3 dimensional person as opposed to a one-dimensional kind of super-hero.

[Edited 7/10/18 9:50am]

[Edited 7/10/18 9:51am]

1Sasha said:

PennyPurple said:

Yes, the cat is out of the bag, and they show no shame. $$

PennyPurple, we don't see any interviewers asking them the hard questions. Yes, they all say we didn't know. But where are the journalists questioning, asking how they couldn't have known? No one is cracking. And who is digging for the dirt to find out what those years were really like.

The beautiful CBS News’ correspondent Jamie Yuccas asked Kirky J.

There is a difference between humanizing someone and salictious demonizing. I am not interested in books only about Prince's downfall. PLus, believing that everyone around him didn't give two shits about whether he lived or died because he was such a bully and monster isn't "humanzing" him or anyone around him. I reckon that he and all the people around him were more complicated and varied in their personal characteristics than that. I want nuances and honesty, not just dirt digging and conspiracy theories. I am not naive. I know folks are protecting the brand. I also know that people probably tiptoed around his problem due to thinking that either they could get fired if they pushed it too hard or they wouldn't do any good to in essence scare a skittish man away from any kind of real help. But I also think that opiod addiction (how it manifests, how much is going and when) is complicated to diagnose especially in a man as cryptic and enigmatic as Prince was. I think this stuff is more complicated than Prince's "minions' being so terrified of him that they would rather watch him die then even hint at his problem. Fame has a power. One doesn't even have to say anything sometimes before folks assume that all uncomfortable topics are off, and Prince did fire folks in the past. But I do think some people did in their own ways broach the subject. I also think that not everyone knew the ins-and-outs of his issues and may have thought DR's and others were helping him control it -- they were passing the buck so to speak. Yes, I do think some folks were partaking in drugs to keep up with his work effort but I don't think anyone was completely insensitive or uncaring about their fellow musicians' suffering. Prince tied people's hands also by his isolation and enigmatic personality. I do not think he just popped pills in front of everyone and then said in effect, "If you even say anything about this to myself or anyone else, I will destroy you after I fire you on the spot">

peggyon said:

Bodhitheblackdog said:

Sadly, this is where our fandom is butting up against the reality of how Prince was viewed in the past 20 years by the culture at large. He didn't self-destruct 'young enough' like Janis, Jimi or Jim (Belushi and Morrison) to make him a 'lost' legend, forever young...he died surrounded by 20 somethings who were rumored to be giving him 'business advice', looking frail and unhealthy (though many were in denial about his downward spiral) and he died alone in the elevator of his 53,000 sq, foot bolthole where he kept his costumes, guitars, dusty cars , pills and secrets...The serious books are coming, and they won't paint a pretty picture. True Prince fans...prepare to be skeeved out.

Pretty true...sigh. But I know we all still love him. Maybe others see the digging as a sign of disrespect.

I don't as I do not think there is anything wrong with truth-seeking. I think we are looking to humanize him into a 3 dimensional person as opposed to a one-dimensional kind of super-hero.

[Edited 7/10/18 9:50am]

[Edited 7/10/18 9:51am]

SkipperLove said:

There is a difference between humanizing someone and salictious demonizing. I am not interested in books only about Prince's downfall. PLus, believing that everyone around him didn't give two shits about whether he lived or died because he was such a bully and monster isn't "humanzing" him or anyone around him. I reckon that he and all the people around him were more complicated and varied in their personal characteristics than that. I want nuances and honesty, not just dirt digging and conspiracy theories. I am not naive. I know folks are protecting the brand. I also know that people probably tiptoed around his problem due to thinking that either they could get fired if they pushed it too hard or they wouldn't do any good to in essence scare a skittish man away from any kind of real help. But I also think that opiod addiction (how it manifests, how much is going and when) is complicated to diagnose especially in a man as cryptic and enigmatic as Prince was. I think this stuff is more complicated than Prince's "minions' being so terrified of him that they would rather watch him die then even hint at his problem. Fame has a power. One doesn't even have to say anything sometimes before folks assume that all uncomfortable topics are off, and Prince did fire folks in the past. But I do think some people did in their own ways broach the subject. I also think that not everyone knew the ins-and-outs of his issues and may have thought DR's and others were helping him control it -- they were passing the buck so to speak. Yes, I do think some folks were partaking in drugs to keep up with his work effort but I don't think anyone was completely insensitive or uncaring about their fellow musicians' suffering. Prince tied people's hands also by his isolation and enigmatic personality. I do not think he just popped pills in front of everyone and then said in effect, "If you even say anything about this to myself or anyone else, I will destroy you after I fire you on the spot">

peggyon said:

Pretty true...sigh. But I know we all still love him. Maybe others see the digging as a sign of disrespect.

I don't as I do not think there is anything wrong with truth-seeking. I think we are looking to humanize him into a 3 dimensional person as opposed to a one-dimensional kind of super-hero.

[Edited 7/10/18 9:50am]

[Edited 7/10/18 9:51am]

YES! to both of you.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

1Sasha said:

PennyPurple, we don't see any interviewers asking them the hard questions. Yes, they all say we didn't know. But where are the journalists questioning, asking how they couldn't have known? No one is cracking. And who is digging for the dirt to find out what those years were really like.

Sadly, this is where our fandom is butting up against the reality of how Prince was viewed in the past 20 years by the culture at large. He didn't self-destruct 'young enough' like Janis, Jimi or Jim (Belushi and Morrison) to make him a 'lost' legend, forever young...he died surrounded by 20 somethings who were rumored to be giving him 'business advice', looking frail and unhealthy (though many were in denial about his downward spiral) and he died alone in the elevator of his 53,000 sq, foot bolthole where he kept his costumes, guitars, dusty cars , pills and secrets...The serious books are coming, and they won't paint a pretty picture. True Prince fans...prepare to be skeeved out.

You are spot on.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

Krystalkisses said:

Bodhitheblackdog said:

Sadly, this is where our fandom is butting up against the reality of how Prince was viewed in the past 20 years by the culture at large. He didn't self-destruct 'young enough' like Janis, Jimi or Jim (Belushi and Morrison) to make him a 'lost' legend, forever young...he died surrounded by 20 somethings who were rumored to be giving him 'business advice', looking frail and unhealthy (though many were in denial about his downward spiral) and he died alone in the elevator of his 53,000 sq, foot bolthole where he kept his costumes, guitars, dusty cars , pills and secrets...The serious books are coming, and they won't paint a pretty picture. True Prince fans...prepare to be skeeved out.

Bod both you and Penny have both been the most honest and realistic about this throughout this whole thing. I apprechiate you both. I just want the whole , truthful picture. His art will stand alone for all time. It was that amazing. Most artists are weird. But their art is always something else entirely and can remain un-sullied.

Thanks for the kind words re our 'tough love' for Prince and his fans and I agree you you 1000% that his artistic contribution to the workd will stand for generations to come as something special, his most generous gift to humanity...and touched by God.

Thank you. Its not more honest or more truthful to depict fellow human beings as just demons or cold calculating greed machines. People are complicated and motivated or not-motivated by many factors--some self-serving, some fear motivated, some more generous.. They face conundrums. They don't always know how to handle a problem or how impactful they can be. When I read the investigation files, what struck me the most was all the secrecy not necessarily from his associates (although that certainly existed) but from PRince himself. Also, ironically, not one person interviewed mentioned another associate as a possible drug hook-up or as someone who partook in drugs with him. If others were taking drugs to keep up, it was not a social thing they did with prince. Its not like some interviewee said, "Hey, if you want to know who supplied P his drugs, ask Morris Hayes, or Kim Berry or Sonny Thompson or Hannah or Larry because they used to watch him get high or take some of it with him". They all made have "known" but what specifically did they know other than a history of occurances that were the result of overdoses or him weening himself off. The only people who probably knew the entire truth were his second wife, himself, and maybe his doctors. His assistants probably knew more than they claim but even they may not have known where all the petty cash was going or what the doctors were specifically prescribing. For most people, the when, why, and how he was partaking was harder to tell. Unless he was shooting up in front of them or popping pills randomly and or feverishly (with no explanations or excuses..obviously a 50 something workaholic whose job has physical demands is going to have some pain issues) , what is anyone really going to say when he acts erratically other than "Prince, do you need a rest?". People who were in his face shouting, "you are an addict" weren't going to go far because if they kept it up, they would get fired or he would dodge the issue either by denying it, stating that no one has ever seen him do it or by stating that any pill usage was entirely medicinal. (at times, it probably was.)

rednblue said:

SkipperLove said:

There is a difference between humanizing someone and salictious demonizing. I am not interested in books only about Prince's downfall. PLus, believing that everyone around him didn't give two shits about whether he lived or died because he was such a bully and monster isn't "humanzing" him or anyone around him. I reckon that he and all the people around him were more complicated and varied in their personal characteristics than that. I want nuances and honesty, not just dirt digging and conspiracy theories. I am not naive. I know folks are protecting the brand. I also know that people probably tiptoed around his problem due to thinking that either they could get fired if they pushed it too hard or they wouldn't do any good to in essence scare a skittish man away from any kind of real help. But I also think that opiod addiction (how it manifests, how much is going and when) is complicated to diagnose especially in a man as cryptic and enigmatic as Prince was. I think this stuff is more complicated than Prince's "minions' being so terrified of him that they would rather watch him die then even hint at his problem. Fame has a power. One doesn't even have to say anything sometimes before folks assume that all uncomfortable topics are off, and Prince did fire folks in the past. But I do think some people did in their own ways broach the subject. I also think that not everyone knew the ins-and-outs of his issues and may have thought DR's and others were helping him control it -- they were passing the buck so to speak. Yes, I do think some folks were partaking in drugs to keep up with his work effort but I don't think anyone was completely insensitive or uncaring about their fellow musicians' suffering. Prince tied people's hands also by his isolation and enigmatic personality. I do not think he just popped pills in front of everyone and then said in effect, "If you even say anything about this to myself or anyone else, I will destroy you after I fire you on the spot">

YES! to both of you.

NotACleverName said:

There is an account from Elisa Fiorillo in which she mentions an "incident" that occurred in 2010....believe there was speculation of an od then. Here is the link - http://prince.org/msg/5/448972 - if this doesn't work (on phone and not sure if the link will be accessible), the thread was created in the AA forum and is titled along the lines of "Elisa Fiorillo interview and how She Joined the NPG".

so if this is true then tricky christopher was right, i wonder who he was, he didn't give a name. he just said "we almost lost him" then. must have been the real deal.

purplefam99 said:

benni said:

I think paul was talking about the other incidents you mentioned, not the aspirin and wine incident, nor the plane. But the "The other one was I THINK 2011,12,13 (don't remember specific year) it had been report that he died and fans were starting to wear their prince shirts." I was a Prince fan in 2011, 12, 13, and I don't ever remember hearing a report that Prince had died and that people had started wearing their Prince shirts.

me too^^^

the only time i heard of fans wearing t shirts the day after was the early 80's when he supposedly died of a coke overdose, there was a thread wear people remembered wearing their shirts to school the next day because they thought he died. the 2010-2013 incident was pretty hushed up, none of us heard about that until after he died.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

1Sasha said:

PennyPurple, we don't see any interviewers asking them the hard questions. Yes, they all say we didn't know. But where are the journalists questioning, asking how they couldn't have known? No one is cracking. And who is digging for the dirt to find out what those years were really like.

Sadly, this is where our fandom is butting up against the reality of how Prince was viewed in the past 20 years by the culture at large. He didn't self-destruct 'young enough' like Janis, Jimi or Jim (Belushi and Morrison) to make him a 'lost' legend, forever young...he died surrounded by 20 somethings who were rumored to be giving him 'business advice', looking frail and unhealthy (though many were in denial about his downward spiral) and he died alone in the elevator of his 53,000 sq, foot bolthole where he kept his costumes, guitars, dusty cars , pills and secrets...The serious books are coming, and they won't paint a pretty picture. True Prince fans...prepare to be skeeved out.

might be right but can't be a lot worse than MJ or Elvis.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

Krystalkisses said:

Bodhitheblackdog said:

Thanks for the kind words re our 'tough love' for Prince and his fans and I agree you you 1000% that his artistic contribution to the workd will stand for generations to come as something special, his most generous gift to humanity...and touched by God.

Yes! His art will transcend the human failings of it's creator because it was deeper truly from GOD who used the person (Prince) to get to the world (us) to inspire, connect emotionally, and get us to SEE. I truly wish all of these associates and people protecting his image would understand that. I don't understand why they are still fiercely guarding this IMAGE he wanted to sell. It is like he has a hold on them from beyond the GRAVE!!!! (Or Urn) It really is all so weird. When the real truth comes out what is going to be so deeply shocking about him that they would feel like it would unrecoverable? Did he murder someone? Did he secretly worship Lucifer? Did he bath in young maidens' blood????? What could be so bad? It seemed like the reality is he was a narcotics, cocaine addict, who fucked hot women, got off on strange porn, had a bad temper and could be abusive to some of his women and employees ( based on rumors). Is that IT??? Because if it was none of that takes away from the music because that is a unique, personal relationship each individual fan has with his work. Maybe our opinion will be altered by the truth of who he was as a person but Prince was really an IMAGE, a sexy, glamorous Ken Doll with enormous talents! Miles Davis, James Brown were no angels either but who cares!!!!??? There will be initial shock but the majority will get over it and just accept. He had a beautiful side and a horrible side. The truth can be oh so beautiful! You guys keep up the tough love!

no one will top elvis or mj for the vile things they were rumored to have done, not that i believe necessarily that either or both molested kids (13+) but i guess it was possible. Prince is an angel compared to a lot of people out there. Muhammad Ali, when asked how he avoided all the troubles that followed Mike Tyson, he said "I was never caught" not "i'm an angel".