I know I am going to take some heat for this little rant. But people might be born with musical proclivities (a brain that is good with patterns, good audio recognition, obsessive attention to detail etc) but a musical genius is a genius because they work hard and re-evaluate, make interesting choices, stretch, are curious--NOt because of some raw talent that others cultivate. Spike Lee, CHuck Zwick, Kim Berry, Steve Parke all wanted people to know that Prince worked ten times harder than most of the people around him. Spike Lee even took offense to the notion that black musical geniuses were just born with it instinctively (like noble savage stereotypes about Native Americans being just born with noblity). Even Prince answered the question about why he was such a good guitarist by saying he used to practice 8 hours a day until his fingers bleed. I am not saying that God couldn't have blessed him (if you believe that) with a love for what he did or an ability to adapt the pecularities of his brain, but by erasing the man and his work effort from the genius, it is in fact stating that he is not a 'genius' but a vessel or blank slate filled by something outside of himself. Prince might have believed that but he is short-changing himself if he did.

[Edited 7/19/18 13:12pm]

[Edited 7/19/18 15:15pm]

Uh, its implied by statements about God giving him the talent and he being the vessel--stated by Alan Leeds. Its implied when folks act like Prince had musical super ears and super talents but no musical knowledge more complex than top forty Minnesota radio. I think we will have to agree to disagree about this.

rdhull said:

Uh....who doesn’t think it was anything besides his work ethic?

SkipperLove said:

I am just thinking about that September article I am dreading. Fans know. But here's the deal the god-given talent but boss from hell description seems to imply that his talent was just handed to him from the heavens and that his band was forced to work hard. It doesn't seem to imply that he himself worked hard to acquire that talent. I am probably over-analyzing but I hate what that might imply to those who don't know that he too was working in the trenches with his 'slaves'.

Casual fans, non-fans and lazy music writers probably do not know. I imagine some people think he is like some "magical negro" who inherited his talent from just his genetics or his ancestors (like the characters in Get Out) . We fans live in a bubble where Prince is concerned. We know he is praised for his work ethic. But think about this--when Steve Parke was asked one thing people didn't know about Prince, he stated that people don't know that he worked much much harder than anyone else he knew. Casual fans and non-fans do not know how hard he worked. When one works that hard, I don't think they even realize how hard that is on others. And if they do, they probably think "Well, you think you work hard. Look at all I am doing."

Chuck Zwicky wouldn't have to make statements like this if most people knew how hard he worked...

“If people could see the amount of effort and diligence it took to be Prince, they would get jobs in banks,” says Chuck Zwicky, who worked as a Paisley Park recording engineer from 1987 through ‘89. “There was no trick. He just worked 10 times harder than anybody I’ve ever known in my life.”

RJOrion said:

who "undervalued" his work ethic?...he is ALWAYS praised for his work ethic....

[Edited 7/19/18 13:15pm]

[Edited 7/19/18 13:40pm]

i am not saying he didn't have inherent gifts but those gifts were also burdens. It wasn't just hard on band members who can quit, it was hard on him.

Morgaine said:

I personally believe it's a combination of hard work & inherent gifts. There are lots of people with talent, some may call 'genius', but do not (for myriad reasons) do the necessary hard work, and become one-hit wonders, etc. Those who do the hard work but do not have that 'thing' that some are born with, are technically amazing, but just don't have that oomph necessary for WOW. Prince did and was both, imho.

rdhull said:

Well, in America, we often attribute talent to God and instinct in a way that is condensending and even racist at times. The most respectful way to acknowledge one's talents is to acknowledge that he/she was born with certain talents and that he/she cultivated those talents with the intelligence, hard work and self awareness needed to reach the peak of his/her ability. It wasn't just animalistic instinct, but higher thinking and effort that played a part.

paulludvig said:

Where I come from saying someone suceeded primarily because of hard work is a backhanded compliment. In Europe we have this idea about effortless brilliance. The idea can be traced back to the renaissance at least with Baldassare Castiglione's 'The Book of the Courtier' and the term sprezzatura.

SkipperLove said:

I don't like when they say that either. But no one wants to come off like they aren't their own individual talents especially when they are not as known as he is and are in his peer group in terms of age and experience. They have egos to protect too. Its human nature. I think they make the mistake of assuming his genius goes without saying. BUt I will say that Fink was always really good at talking about P's abilities. LIsa admitted that P was good with minimalism. Wendy complicated P's rhythm guitar playing techniques (slipping his pic in and out of his hand). He wasn't in the mentoring business. however at that time and none of these associates are going to admit that their individualized ,compartmentalized abilities were influenced by a jack of all trades ,multi-tasker like Prince who kept them too busy to probably realize what they may have learned. (overwhelming to say the least)

SkipperLove said:

Well, in America, we often attribute talent to God and instinct in a way that is condensending and even racist at times. The most respectful way to acknowledge one's talents is to acknowledge that he/she was born with certain talents and that he/she cultivated those talents with the intelligence, hard work and self awareness needed to reach the peak of his/her ability. It wasn't just animalistic instinct, but higher thinking and effort that played a part.

Agreed. But when former associates are asked what they learned from Prince and the only thing they can come up with is that he taught them "to work hard", then I think they are being rather petty and dishonest.

[Edited 7/19/18 14:42pm]

jdcxc said:

He is underrated in both ways in my opinion. Some people talk in such hyperbolic but unsupported accolodes about Prince's abilities that its like the talent was some kind of accident. And the second someone finds out that maybe Wendy helped him come up with chords etc, people push him immediately off the pedestal and attribute his talent to something raw and uncultivated, without considering that ultimately whatever he chose to use from his collaborators was still his decision, his artitstic choice. This is why he gets 'over-rated' labels thrown at him by casual fans who know a 1/10 of his musical output. Any genius will work hard to perfect their genius. It doesn't take anything away from Shakespeare to admit that he may have written several drafts of Hamlet or was influenced by Marlowe. It enhances his talent to something human rather than otherworldly, something intentional rather than accidental.

jdcxc said:

I believe that his work ethic is OVERVALUED and his Genius is Underrated. Plenty of musicians are obsessive about their craft yet they don’t sound like P.

but not having a "life" and working out his demons increased his work ethic...

paulludvig said:

rdhull said:

Uh....who doesn’t think it was anything besides his work ethic?

You don't think he had talent?

Go siddown somewhere.

Sadly, this is true. He obviously had some life or what would he write about but it revolved around his work--on the edges and periphery of it. This "boss from hell" had his own hell, so I kind of have little tolerance for complaints from people who are alive and happy and healthy surrounded by people who love them and who had the choice to leave a supposedly 'hellish' experience. Playing music might be taxing, but it is never hell, that is unless the rest of your personal life suffers and you physically and emotionally feel like you're alone, in pain, and isolated due to a lifetime of it.

luvsexy4all said:

but not having a "life" and working out his demons increased his work ethic...

rdhull said:

Sounds like you are to the point where you are now getting angry at the ASSociates. The stuff they are saying, especially The Rev, are just trying to change the narrative. Prince isn't here to put them in their place anymore. Without Prince nobody would even know who these losers are. Brownmark is now saying that he choreographed Purple Rain & When Doves Cry. LMAO.

They just really need to stop. It's been 2 years and they need to move forward with their own lives and families and stop toying with the fans emotions.

Hopefully Prince fans will just stop paying them any attention and they'll start doing their own thing. Not Prince's thing.

Let's face it, they were just paid bands for Prince, once he got done with them, he walked away. Now we know why he left them in the dust and moved on. It's all starting to make sense.

In all fairness, Mark was probably talking about choreographing the band moves that everyone did. The solo dance moves that PRince did (which were almost improvized) were obviously his and much more athletic. Just watching the rehearsal footage that accompanies the "nothing compares 2 u" release reveals the difference. Prince is doing all kinds of moves the rest of the band is not doing. The band moves that Prince also partakes in are much simplier.

PennyPurple said:

Sounds like you are to the point where you are now getting angry at the ASSociates. The stuff they are saying, especially The Rev, are just trying to change the narrative. Prince isn't here to put them in their place anymore. Without Prince nobody would even know who these losers are. Brownmark is now saying that he choreographed Purple Rain & When Doves Cry. LMAO.

They just really need to stop. It's been 2 years and they need to move forward with their own lives and families and stop toying with the fans emotions.

Hopefully Prince fans will just stop paying them any attention and they'll start doing their own thing. Not Prince's thing.

Let's face it, they were just paid bands for Prince, once he got done with them, he walked away. Now we know why he left them in the dust and moved on. It's all starting to make sense.

[Edited 7/19/18 21:13pm]

SkipperLove said:

Casual fans, non-fans and lazy music writers probably do not know. I imagine some people think he is like some "magical negro" who inherited his talent from just his genetics or his ancestors (like the characters in Get Out) . We fans live in a bubble where Prince is concerned. We know he is praised for his work ethic. But think about this--when Steve Parke was asked one thing people didn't know about Prince, he stated that people don't know that he worked much much harder than anyone else he knew. Casual fans and non-fans do not know how hard he worked. When one works that hard, I don't think they even realize how hard that is on others. And if they do, they probably think "Well, you think you work hard. Look at all I am doing."

I have so much appreciation for this thread. You touched on a critical piece in understanding Prince's legacy.

.

I'm in agreement with much of what you have said in your comments throughout this thread: the general public and the more casual, mainstream fans that make up the majority of Prince's fan base are barely aware of the true extent of Prince's superior work ethic. They should know. It set him apart from most if not all of his peers.

.

And to properly understand and honor him as the legendary musician he became, this aspect of his abilities must be recognized. Personally, i am of the opinion that he was born with a raw musical talent, or at least a strong proclivity for music, but he also was one of the most dedicated musicians in terms of the sheer time and energy he put into learning his instruments and how to compose and write songs. It simply cannot be overlooked. His genius was truly of his own making through the most intense focus and drive. And of course practice, practice, practice.... One is left to ponder how much of his personal life (and sleep) was he deprived of in pursuit of perfecting his talents. He never seemed to rest on his laurels. Constantly growing, evolving, experimenting and expanding his musical knowledge throughout his career. This exceptional--some might say extreme--discipline of Prince's should not get glossed over in the history books. He could not have achieved genius without paying dues many times over for decades in terms of the long hours; the perfectionism and high standards he demanded of himself and as much, if not more, from his band members; the intense productivity, the 24- and 48-hour (and longer?) all-nighters in the studio.

.

With that caliber of skill, he made the art of music look easy. But he earned his legendary status the hard way by living, eating and breathing music to become a master of his craft.

Thanks. I am not diminishing others' contributions or hard work. But what I am essentially saying is that he worked harder than any musician I have ever heard of--all while trying to run a little mini-empire of his own. 39 albums in 40 years is crazy output. And that is not all he did. The dude was obsessed with music. All the other stuff he did was in service of the music. We don't have to like all of his music. No one does. But people who claim to be diehard fans and don't even give some later work a good listen or two..I don't know if that is geniune diehard fanhood. Obviously, not everyone is going to be a diehard fan when they say they "love" Prince. I say I love David Bowie, the ROlling Stones, and Radiohead and I admittedly only know maybe a 1/4th of each of their music. But I never called myself a 'diehard' fan of those guys. Experts and scholars on Prince have no excuse if they ignore and not try to come to later music with an open mind and a degree of respect for his journey.

Bluu said:

SkipperLove said:

Casual fans, non-fans and lazy music writers probably do not know. I imagine some people think he is like some "magical negro" who inherited his talent from just his genetics or his ancestors (like the characters in Get Out) . We fans live in a bubble where Prince is concerned. We know he is praised for his work ethic. But think about this--when Steve Parke was asked one thing people didn't know about Prince, he stated that people don't know that he worked much much harder than anyone else he knew. Casual fans and non-fans do not know how hard he worked. When one works that hard, I don't think they even realize how hard that is on others. And if they do, they probably think "Well, you think you work hard. Look at all I am doing."

I have so much appreciation for this thread. You touched on a critical piece in understanding Prince's legacy.

.

I'm in agreement with much of what you have said in your comments throughout this thread: the general public and the more casual, mainstream fans that make up the majority of Prince's fan base are barely aware of the true extent of Prince's superior work ethic. They should know. It set him apart from most if not all of his peers.

.

And to properly understand and honor him as the legendary musician he became, this aspect of his abilities must be recognized. Personally, i am of the opinion that he was born with a raw musical talent, or at least a strong proclivity for music, but he also was one of the most dedicated musicians in terms of the sheer time and energy he put into learning his instruments and how to compose and write songs. It simply cannot be overlooked. His genius was truly of his own making through the most intense focus and drive. And of course practice, practice, practice.... One is left to ponder how much of his personal life (and sleep) was he deprived of in pursuit of perfecting his talents. He never seemed to rest on his laurels. Constantly growing, evolving, experimenting and expanding his musical knowledge throughout his career. This exceptional--some might say extreme--discipline of Prince's should not get glossed over in the history books. He could not have achieved genius without paying dues many times over for decades in terms of the long hours; the perfectionism and high standards he demanded of himself and as much, if not more, from his band members; the intense productivity, the 24- and 48-hour (and longer?) all-nighters in the studio.

.

With that caliber of skill, he made the art of music look easy. But he earned his legendary status the hard way by living, eating and breathing music to become a master of his craft.

He was driven. He had a message that he needed to get across and it doesn't really matter so much where that message came from. He had this commitment and dedication, when others were partying or enjoying life he locked himself in to work. Creating his own universe. Like he used to say, he willed things in to being. That does not sound so much like Let go and let God but again, that doesn't really matter. He was dedicated to his craft. And he had the magic of making it seem effortless.


Great thread.

Well, the general media got most things wrong about him in life so I see no reason why they should start getting it right in his death. As for blaming members of the revolution for every bad thing that ever happened, well that's an org speciality.

Prince himself credited God for his talent and with blessing him with musical ideas. Obviously Prince worked his ass off becoming a better musician over time.

How much of it is God-given (if you believe in that), and how much of it is hard work?

jaawwnn said:

Well, the general media got most things wrong about him in life so I see no reason why they should start getting it right in his death. As for blaming members of the revolution for every bad thing that ever happened, well that's an org speciality.

Blaming the Rev for every bad thing that ever happened? It's what they are doing and saying NOW.