Marrk said:

LeGrinde said:

the last straw was 20Ten not being released in the US at all. I was so angry.

Why be angry about something easily obtainable? the internet was working back in 2010. I sent three copies to fans in the USA for nothing. They were nice though. Not angry.

It was not easily attainable for me at all in 2010. Prices on eBay at the time were at least as high as they are now and I couldn't afford it. It was the first time I wasn't able to get a Prince album when it came out since before Purple Rain.

But I guess you're trying to say that if it would not have made me angry somebody in Europe would have just sent me one for free. [I forget that money is no object for many orgers and collectors; It's all so easily attainable! Heck, I gave 3 away! Good for you. It ain't that way for all of us]

LeGrinde said:

Marrk said:

Why be angry about something easily obtainable? the internet was working back in 2010. I sent three copies to fans in the USA for nothing. They were nice though. Not angry.

It was not easily attainable for me at all in 2010. Prices on eBay at the time were at least as high as they are now and I couldn't afford it. It was the first time I wasn't able to get a Prince album when it came out since before Purple Rain.

But I guess you're trying to say that if it would not have made me angry somebody in Europe would have just sent me one for free. [I forget that money is no object for many orgers and collectors; It's all so easily attainable! Heck, I gave 3 away! Good for you. It ain't that way for all of us]

I got one off Ebay in 2010 for $15 with free shipping--not that expensive.

Some people made it sound like they were personally at war with P, and talked about him or his associates like they weren't real people who could potentially read all the insults and get hurt. It was pretty disgusting to be honest because it wasn't "in passing", it was systematic, weekly attacks with dis threads being created all the times. I fought it as much as I could, and some people here hated me for it, now he's gone so it doesn't matter much anymore what people say. I still get pissed when I read insults targeted at living associates, his family or biographers, but it seems the mods finally realized that some things couldn't be tolerated, so I don't bother anymore.

There were many things that Prince did that were frustrating to his fans, mainly his business decisions. I have said negative things on here when he was alive. I guess some of us just thought he was better than all that. Fans got let down a lot by some of his decisions, let us not forget that - and some of those decisions must have cost him a lot of money and a dwindling fan base, especially from the mid-nineties - 2004. Certainly, that's when I found people had a lot less time for him.

Towards the end I got frustrated by the Hit n Run shows, not knowing they were going to be the last I would see - it was like, fuck the fact that you need to save to go to all the shows, then you need travel and hotels, as well as booking time off work. You will get it all sorted in a short space of time, despite it causing you the biggest amount of grief, and you will get my sampler set in there somewhere! I guess now I look back with fond memories at my exasperation in trying to get everything sorted! But, yeah, at the time, it was like, fuck you Prince - don't you realise how difficult it is to drop everything to come and see you?

rogifan said:

The set lists are boring, same songs, too many covers, sampler set is stupid, too many singers on stage blah blah blah, bitch bitch bitch.

.

Why is stating facts called being nasty?

The man did play, on average, sets consisting for 90%+ of songs of 20+ years or older in his final decade and before that.

Even new albums often did not change that habit much.

Of course their are shows and tours that break with the average but the average is just that.

A strong indication that he was not serious about his newer material.

.

Even aftershows disappeared in his final years.

Espcecially in this context that is a pitty as the setlists were mostly different from 'normal' shows.

.

The sampler set was entertaining in 2007 but he should have burried the sampler after the O2 stint.

.

If you cannot see the core value in a coimplaint then yes, all is blah blah to you.

But most of the issues you mention concerned valid problems.

Marrk said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

rogifan said:

There was one guy who would often post shit about Prince’s guitar playing and needing guitar lessons.

Lol what? Prince will always be one of the greatest guitar players of all time. This guy must've been trollin' vor something.

kidmelody2012 said:

xRachx said:

Maybe the aftershows disappeared cos P wasn't up to it as much. How many 50+ year olds could travel, sound check, rehearse, do a full show and then an after show. To expect the man to still be at the same pace as he was in his 20s is unbelievable. I don't think the lack of aftershows shows he wasn't feeling his new music at all.

.

Or maybe because the band was not up to it or `into` it.

xRachx said:

One thing I always have to consider, is that the ORG is just a place like any other group where people post. Orgers were also very supportive and appreciative of Prince. But people tend to see the more negative aspect of human beings. Those same people were/will be on many other sites talking the same way.

.

the Org is a place where people come and go. Have their own agendas and view of life, and as per Cyberspace, people put it out there.

laurarichardson said:

PliablyPurple said:

To me it wasn't about entitlement/not getting to hear what I want boo hoo, but about disappointment. It's akin to your friend telling you to come over for some pizza and when you get there you find out that motherfucker ate the pizza but saved you some crust! Dammit, P, why ya gotta throw crusts at me I thought we were friends!?!

He has about a thousand songs. Do you expect to hear them all. Anyway he is gone now and I wish he was still performing those sampler sets. We are not going to see a performer push himself like that ever again.

Well, yea, goes w/o saying we all wish he was still alive and that he gave his all to his craft. But don't take my comments out of context. That second post was piggybacking on the idea from my first when I mentioned seeing a setlist in print, then chasing down that particular set just to find out he didn't play half of the purported setlist. In the end, it's such a miniscule thing to bitch about and doesn't effect whether or not I think he put on a great show. So, no, I don't go to a concert hosted by any artist who has an extensive discography and expect to hear them all. What a ridiculous notion.

Nasty towards prince, nasty towards one another....just another day at the org.

rogifan said:

Going through some old threads on live shows and it’s just one complaint after another (with his new music sucks thrown in for good measure). The set lists are boring, same songs, too many covers, sampler set is stupid, too many singers on stage blah blah blah, bitch bitch bitch. Good lord I can only imagine what the bitching will be like once valet music starts being released.

I was one of those folks who came to Prince.org from Housequake. Of course, the terms, "negative" and "positive," are relative and subjective. But, I can say that I immediately realized that there was more intense debate that sometimes (not all the times) became personal. I don't remember much of that at Housequake. I should add that I also had subscriptions to Uptown, Controversy, and The Prince Family Newsletter so I've been involved in the "diehard" or "hardcore" Prince community for some time. For most of the "BIG" debates on the org, there were generally three topics: 1. Those who felt Prince hadn't done anything great since the 80s versus those who felt that Prince's work is just as good if not better after the 80s. 2. The debate as to whether or not Prince becoming a more orthodox Christian lessened his creativity and overall level of his work. 3. The charges of racism by both sides--some of the black members calling many of the white members racists and some of the white members calling many of the black members racists. While The Rainbow Children is considered the linchpin of this debate, the issues/concerns about race and racism have always simmered just beneath the surface of Prince fandom.

*

I've had my fair share of decent and not so decent debates with folks. While I always stood my ground, I can say that I've never attacked anyone personally, especially as it relates to name calling. Now, to be clear and honest, I've called a lot of "ideas" stupid, but not people. And, I actually left the Org for a brief stint because I felt that the place had just become too negative and, especially, racist for me. But, with all of its flaws, the Org and even Housequake to a degree are the best places to stay connected to quality information about Prince. I just learned that I don't have to engage in every debate on this site regardless of how mis-informative or racist a thread may be. Now, I just skip the bs and look for actual information about releases and whatnot.

*

In closing, I’ll add that someone on this site posted something that, if we all lived by it, it would be a lot less negativity on this site. If I’m remembering correctly, the post was “One person’s Lovesexy is another person’s Rainbow Children.” That is not the exact quote, but it is one hundred percent true. There are so many different people who love Prince for so many different reasons that it’s almost silly to tell someone else why they should or should not like something or some aspect of Prince. Personally, I’m just glad that I’ve always seen Prince as a very diverse pie chart with so many different pieces of the pie to love.

1725topp said:

daKotaGeNesis said:

rogifan said:

Going through some old threads on live shows and it’s just one complaint after another (with his new music sucks thrown in for good measure). The set lists are boring, same songs, too many covers, sampler set is stupid, too many singers on stage blah blah blah, bitch bitch bitch. Good lord I can only imagine what the bitching will be like once valet music starts being released.

I went through most of the post on here from 2009-2015 and was surprised by the stuff I read! I wonder if he was reading stuff on this forum before he died...

Many people on here did get pretty brutal at times. I never had a problem with sampler sets or any other set because I wasn't able to get around to the dozens of concerts some of the other orgers seemed so frequently able to get to. I probably saw Prince 15 times in the last 20 years. The sets were always great to me because I was so glad to be available or able to get to see him. Plus, I always remembered how it was just me and Prince during many tough times as an adolescence. I could always jam with Prince and get a break from my troubles! He would have had to do something mighty despicable for me to lose faith.

Marrk said:

rogifan said:

The set lists are boring, same songs, too many covers, sampler set is stupid, too many singers on stage

Some may see it as nasty, some may see constructive criticism. I'm not sure why Prince should escape that. There are fans who accept anything and fans who wanted better from him because he was more than capable. People pay to see Prince, not some female none singer butcher 'Paisley Park' like on his last UK tour.

It's arguable the last bold setlist he did for a tour was ONA, less hits etc. After that, Musicology onwards, back to the familiar songs. It's obvious why, he couldn't do 21 nights in a large arena and do Rainbow Children songs. Not fair on the paying casuals I suppose. I had my fair share of the best gigs from him, so can't complain (apart from the Raspberry Beret/Take me With U medley again?!), but can see why some people did. and now they wish they could complain just one more time. Myself included about that bloody medley which i would dearly love to hear in a live setting just one more time. But...yeah.

There is a big difference between constructive criticism, which no one is above, and the verbal belittling and personal assaults Prince routinely received on here. I know I have had this discussion on this board before; criticism about what songs you want to hear is very reasonable, especially when you are paying for the concert, but saying he sucks and is finished and is mailing it in and is just in it for the money is not remotely constructive.

udo said:

rogifan said:

The set lists are boring, same songs, too many covers, sampler set is stupid, too many singers on stage blah blah blah, bitch bitch bitch.

.

Why is stating facts called being nasty?

The man did play, on average, sets consisting for 90%+ of songs of 20+ years or older in his final decade and before that.

Even new albums often did not change that habit much.

Of course their are shows and tours that break with the average but the average is just that.

A strong indication that he was not serious about his newer material.

.

Even aftershows disappeared in his final years.

Espcecially in this context that is a pitty as the setlists were mostly different from 'normal' shows.

.

The sampler set was entertaining in 2007 but he should have burried the sampler after the O2 stint.

.

If you cannot see the core value in a coimplaint then yes, all is blah blah to you.

But most of the issues you mention concerned valid problems.

Stating something is boring is not a fact. That's an opinion. And I certainly do not think to call something boring is being nasty. (I'm agreeing with you.) However, your post was a love letter compared to many of the posts of the last few years. Not only was the setlist garbage, he was a midget, his head was too big for his body, he was a money-grubbing opportunist, he didn't care one lick about his fans, he was a religious drone, and on and on (which became very nasty in delivery, if not intent).

rogifan said:

Going through some old threads on live shows and it’s just one complaint after another (with his new music sucks thrown in for good measure). The set lists are boring, same songs, too many covers, sampler set is stupid, too many singers on stage blah blah blah, bitch bitch bitch. Good lord I can only imagine what the bitching will be like once valet music starts being released.

You're so right. A few people even left here because the people and commments were so nasty. I know I did Those were the main people crying when he died trust me.

rogifan said:

daKotaGeNesis said:

I went through most of the post on here from 2009-2015 and was surprised by the stuff I read! I wonder if he was reading stuff on this forum before he died...

At least it’s not as bad as lipstick alley where people bagged on Prince for not having enough dark skinned band members or dating a dark skinned woman.

*

First, thanks so much for your kind response to my comment. The only thing I'll add about folks, mostly African Americans, complaining about Prince not dating or showcasing dark skinned women throughout his career is that comes from centuries of African Americans seeing their image/bodies, history, and culture marginalized and lampooned by American media. Often, the history of African-American entertainers was a history/process of trying to make white owners and patrons/audiences feel comfortable with blackness. (Even Prince, himself, once stated in a Rolling Stone article that “Wendy makes me more acceptable. When I sneer, she smiles.”) As such, lighter skinned blacks, regardless of talent, were always more accepted/patronized than dark skinned blacks. That's not an opinion. Just do some research on the "Brown Paper Bag" Theory. Unfortunately, after centuries of living under white supremacy, many African Americans began to internalize this notion, which evolved into black self-hatred in which African Americans, themselves, perpetuated the "Brown Paper Bag" theory as a way to ingratiate themselves to the white power structure. Thus, whenever an African American who knows/understands this history sees someone like Prince who is obviously a product of the genius of the black community/black culture exclusively dating and highlighting lighter skinned women, they, for the sake of history and racial progress, must wonder, if not ask aloud, what is the reasoning for this. Is it because he just so happened to find women with whom he is intellectually, emotionally, and artistically compatible who also just happen to be of a lighter skin tone? Or, is it that he, himself, is color struck--which is merely a way of saying that he has embraced/accepted the European aesthetic of beauty--and dates these lighter skinned women as a way to make himself feel better about himself or merely as some sort of status/class symbol?

*

To be clear, I don't know if I've ever heard someone say that Prince doesn't have the right to date women of any complexion. However, when one understands the history of centuries of psychological warfare that African people have endured, especially in America, then one realizes that the question of Prince's dating tastes/patterns must be examined as a way to understand/measure where society is in this course/journey of race relations.

*

Finally, you should find a thread that was created when the "Black Sweat" video was released. There was a white member who basically called the model "ugly" as well as some other names. As such, we must ask ourselves, in light of that comment, how would Prince's white fans have reacted or embraced him had he dated mostly or exclusively dark skinned women? Of course, it's difficult to answer a hypothetical as we all feel/hope that the best of ourselves would be divulged in any situation. But, given the way many white fans reacted to The Rainbow Children, "We March," "Dear Mr. Man," many other songs, and when Prince stated during the Baltimore benefit concert that "The next time I come to Baltimore I want to play in a theatre owned by you and stay in a hotel owned by you," it is safe to say that a good number of Prince's white fans could only love him as long as he was their little racially ambiguous erotic nymph child. Yet, the moment that he, as an African-American man, began engaging issues specific to the African-American community, all hell broke loose. And, we have the threads on this site as proof.

*

Ultimately, all of us come to Prince for various reasons, and, at any moment/movement throughout Prince’s career, some of his fans have felt betrayed as when one white gay member of the org, Spinlight, who I greatly respect and like, said that he felt betrayed by “Dear Mr. Man” and the entire Rainbow Children album. While I understand his position, as an African-American man I also wonder why so many white fans had problems with or didn’t understand Prince’s need to address issues directly/specifically related to African Americans. As I said in my earlier post, even though The Rainbow Children is considered the racial linchpin, issues of race have always simmered just beneath the surface of Prince fandom.

1725topp said:

rogifan said:

1725topp said:

*

First, thanks so much for your kind response to my comment. The only thing I'll add about folks, mostly African Americans, complaining about Prince not dating or showcasing dark skinned women throughout his career is that comes from centuries of African Americans seeing their image/bodies, history, and culture marginalized and lampooned by American media. Often, the history of African-American entertainers was a history/process of trying to make white owners and patrons/audiences feel comfortable with blackness. (Even Prince, himself, once stated in a Rolling Stone article that “Wendy makes me more acceptable. When I sneer, she smiles.”) As such, lighter skinned blacks, regardless of talent, were always more accepted/patronized than dark skinned blacks. That's not an opinion. Just do some research on the "Brown Paper Bag" Theory. Unfortunately, after centuries of living under white supremacy, many African Americans began to internalize this notion, which evolved into black self-hatred in which African Americans, themselves, perpetuated the "Brown Paper Bag" theory as a way to ingratiate themselves to the white power structure. Thus, whenever an African American who knows/understands this history sees someone like Prince who is obviously a product of the genius of the black community/black culture exclusively dating and highlighting lighter skinned women, they, for the sake of history and racial progress, must wonder, if not ask aloud, what is the reasoning for this. Is it because he just so happened to find women with whom he is intellectually, emotionally, and artistically compatible who also just happen to be of a lighter skin tone? Or, is it that he, himself, is color struck--which is merely a way of saying that he has embraced/accepted the European aesthetic of beauty--and dates these lighter skinned women as a way to make himself feel better about himself or merely as some sort of status/class symbol?

*

To be clear, I don't know if I've ever heard someone say that Prince doesn't have the right to date women of any complexion. However, when one understands the history of centuries of psychological warfare that African people have endured, especially in America, then one realizes that the question of Prince's dating tastes/patterns must be examined as a way to understand/measure where society is in this course/journey of race relations.

*

Finally, you should find a thread that was created when the "Black Sweat" video was released. There was a white member who basically called the model "ugly" as well as some other names. As such, we must ask ourselves, in light of that comment, how would Prince's white fans have reacted or embraced him had he dated mostly or exclusively dark skinned women? Of course, it's difficult to answer a hypothetical as we all feel/hope that the best of ourselves would be divulged in any situation. But, given the way many white fans reacted to The Rainbow Children, "We March," "Dear Mr. Man," many other songs, and when Prince stated during the Baltimore benefit concert that "The next time I come to Baltimore I want to play in a theatre owned by you and stay in a hotel owned by you," it is safe to say that a good number of Prince's white fans could only love him as long as he was their little racially ambiguous erotic nymph child. Yet, the moment that he, as an African-American man, began engaging issues specific to the African-American community, all hell broke loose. And, we have the threads on this site as proof.

*

Ultimately, all of us come to Prince for various reasons, and, at any moment/movement throughout Prince’s career, some of his fans have felt betrayed as when one white gay member of the org, Spinlight, who I greatly respect and like, said that he felt betrayed by “Dear Mr. Man” and the entire Rainbow Children album. While I understand his position, as an African-American man I also wonder why so many white fans had problems with or didn’t understand Prince’s need to address issues directly/specifically related to African Americans. As I said in my earlier post, even though The Rainbow Children is considered the racial linchpin, issues of race have always simmered just beneath the surface of Prince fandom.

Thanks again for the thoughtful response. I can’t really comment as I’m whiter than white (thanks to my Irish dad). But, I will say I’ve never felt that Prince purposely avoided working with people who had darker skin color. And I personally have no issue with him raising issues specific to the black community. In fact I’m glad he was trying to get people to channel their anger into something positive. I’d love to see more minority owned businesses and wealth. When they prosper everyone prospers. Perhaps I’m an anomaly amongst Prince’s white fans. I hope not. Also, I’ve seen posts here from people complaining he didn’t work with enough white people yet the last band he had was made up of 3 white women. All I can say is: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ [Edited 9/2/17 18:05pm]

*

And, in the words of Smokey Robinson, I second your emotion.

rogifan said:

mynameisnotsusan said:

The early org days were vicious!

There was one guy who would often post shit about Prince’s guitar playing and needing guitar lessons.

206Michelle said:

rogifan said:

There was one guy who would often post shit about Prince’s guitar playing and needing guitar lessons.

Wow...as if that orger could play the guitar better than prince.

.

FYI:
The guitar playing from his final tour was not even registered. It was not there.

So what does that say about his finesse?

His chops?
Mostly people stayed calm about that fact.

sadly people seem to forget (or haven't learned at all) how to state an opinion without getting personal and mean as soon as someone else disagrees. that's a general phenomenon, not specifically on the org but this place may have a good tradition of thinking being mean was cool or something.

irl no one wants to say what they really think cuz they're scared of being judged and/or to come into conflict. but there couldn't be any conflict if no one would take opinions personal and judge others for their opinion!

online people feel safe and dump all the frustration, anger and disappointment they gathered for weeks in their own lives and didn't dare to speak out ... forgetting that there's always a living and breathing human being on the other end ... just because u can't see them doesn't mean they aren't there. they are. with their own struggles and hurting and feelings. they are. but it's even more than this ... cuz sometimes I get the feeling some people don't forget but do it intentional ... actually trying to hurt somebody and looking for a fight about anything outside their own lives. do y'all feel better then?

this saddens me every day and everywhere. but especially around here cuz prince was all about love4oneanother and he showed us his entire life how to do without judging and labeling and beeing mean and ugly ... he deserved better at least from his fans who claim loving him ...

and yes prince was always open to constructive critisism but nothing mentioned here before and nothing about those posts the op was talking about (I guess cuz I won't mess up my mind with reading those old threads) falls into the category "constructive".

peace and be wild