purplefam99 said:

bodhitheblackdog, i know your asking 1725 this

"in your opinion, was Prince also a 'racially AND SEXUALLY ambiguous erotic nymph child?"
but i wanted to say i think it was a coat he chose to wear that enabled him to "pass".

sorry for that weird copy, not pass for white but pass into other sectors of society, that he knew

those ingredients were tasty to a certain segment of society and using them to easily gain the advantage.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

1725topp said:

*

The article was an interview between Spike Lee and Prince was titled "The Artist" published originally in 1997 by Interview Magazine. The entire article can be read here: http://www.interviewmagaz...prince/#_. However, the point to which you are referring is this except:

*

LEE: Six or seven years ago I had the audacity to write a letter about your choice of women used in music and music videos. Do you remember that?

*

PRINCE: Yes.

*

LEE: Let's talk about that. I think it was very rude on my part. I'll be forty on March 20th and in a lot of ways back then I was too righteous about that type of stuff. Tell the audience what was in that letter I wrote you.

*
PRINCE: I don't remember exactly. It's really vague to me.

*

LEE: I wrote, "Are there going to be any women of dark complexion in your music videos and your films? You had only white women in your stuff." Do you recall what you wrote back to me? You set me straight there!

*

PRINCE: I probably said one had to look at everything I have done, not just the most successful pieces. But I have to be honest, I know you as a different person now, too. We met under different circumstances back then, and I have grown and so have you.

*

Of course, we'll have to take Lee's word that Prince "set him straight" though there is no denying that Prince rarely used "dark complexioned" women in his work. At that time when Lee raised the issue, Prince was overwhelmingly using white and lighter-skinned women in his work. So much so that when he used a dark-skinned woman in "Black Sweat" it set off a storm on this very website. Additionally, while Prince was able to defend his position of rarely using darker-skinned women to Lee (again, we don’t know what Prince said), he also admits to "having grown" in regards to that area and other issues, which I find interesting since so many white fans on this site had a problem with Prince addressing issues specific to African Americans after spending so many years wondering why African Americans would raise the issue of the complexion of the women in Prince's videos and films. It just seems disingenuous to me that white and mix-raced fans who didn't have a problem with Prince using mostly lighter-skinned women in his videos and films would then have a problem with Prince addressing issues specific to African Americans unless they either didn't view Prince as an African American or felt that Prince should not be wasting his time or talent addressing issues that are of no concern to them, proving that what they really wanted Prince to be/remain is their racially ambiguous erotic nymph child. So the question remains: would these same white and mixed-raced fans have loved Prince as much if he would have used darker-complexioned women in his videos and films and if he would have begun is career addressing, in a more specific manner, issue specific to the African-American community? Again, a hypothetical is almost impossible to answer, but the truth is that many white and mixed raced fans, as evident of this site, have a problem accepting Prince as an African American, especially when he was using his talent and status to bring attention to issues specific to the African-American community.

in your opinion, was Prince also a 'racially AND SEXUALLY ambiguous erotic nymph child?

*

Prince was doing what Little Richard and many other African-American artists had done years before him, which was to make himself more palatable to a white audience. As Miles Davis states in his autobiography, "But the record companies and white people liked [Hendrix] better when he had the white guys in his band. Just like a lot of white people like to talk about me when I was doing the nonet thing—the Birth of the Cool thing; or when I did those other albums with Gil Evans or Bill Evans because they always like to see white people up in black shit, so that they can say they had something to do with it." Yet, I also believe, based on additional evidence, that Prince also knew that not being identified as African American or as male but to be identified as something "other" would allow him to play all the music of his heart without having to be confined into R&B. As both Hill in Prince: A Pop Life and McInnis in The Lyrics of Prince show, the problem with being defined as a R&B act is that one is assigned to the R&B department, and the A&R of the R&B department does not have access to or relationships with the DJs at rock stations or at many pop stations, especially in 1978 when the mostly white backlash or whitelash against Disco made it almost impossible for most African American acts to be played on anything other than R&B radio. To quote Carlos Santana, "Prince is an amazing guitar player, but he has to do a strip tease to get noticed." (I saw Santana say this on an MTV or VH1 program in the late 80s or early 90s, and I'm looking for a copy of it for my own records if anyone has it or knows of it.) Even Prince, himself, in a 1983 interview with noted African-American journalist Carol Cooper alludes to the issue of being black and playing all types of music. "My black audience or anyone listening to my first two records knew [Dirty Mind] was coming. ‘I’m Yours’ off the first album was a straight up rock jam…And the second album had ‘Bambi,’ which was also written in such a way as not to give the impression that I was a dilettante." Or, as Edna Grunderson of USA Today states in The Prince of Paisley Park, iirc, "You never see Prince not being Prince so you don't know where the line is between personal and showman." And, don't forget that in 1981, in three separate periodicals (Los Angeles Times, Rolling Stone, and the New York Daily News) from January to March, 1981, Prince changed the racial mix of his parents. He couldn't even keep the lie straight. But, it seems that he knew that he didn't need to keep the lie straight; he just needed to give the impression or create the notion or myth that he was something other than black and straight.

*

Now, was Prince doing all of this because he hated being black or because he felt it was the only way to survive or navigate a music industry driven and controlled by white supremacy? The answer is based on how one understands the history of race and racism in America. But, Prince was definitely calculating in how he desired to present himself racially or his gender. Oddly, as a kid who loved rock and funk as much as I loved blues, soul, and gospel, I didn't give a fuck why he was doing it. I just loved the art that his calculating created. I was aware of what he was doing because of my parents' work in the Civil Rights Movement as well as my own beginning understanding of "show business" and "African-American culture." But, to me, he was just another bad-ass muthafucker from the hood getting the opportunity to show the world the genius of black America. He was everything I loved about black music--bass, guitar, soul, funk, rock, free, liberated, unafraid, and unapologetic. Yet, he wasn't new to me. I knew the history of black music. My parents and family made sure of it. But, he was doing something new with the tradition in the same way that all great artists make something new of the tradition. It was only when we get to Purple Rain that I realized that a lot of white fans were seeing something different than what I was seeing. For a lot of these newly acquired white fans (though there has always been white fans from the beginning), Prince was something "new" and "special" and "not of the black community," and he could have only become that to them, be perceived that way by them, by being able to make himself appear to be a "racially ambiguous erotic nymph child."

*

Also, I apologize for the two long paragraphs. I often have problems finding a suitable break to create multiple paragraphs.

purplefam99 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Yeah the original time that Spike asked that was during the Emancipation period. or right before.

And this is where/when Spike talked about it and Prince putting setting him straight

did you mean for it to be a still shot or video?

that is an image from the interview where the original question was talked about. So I assume Lee probably asked 0+> sometime earlier.

purplefam99 said:

bodhitheblackdog, i know your asking 1725 this

"in your opinion, was Prince also a 'racially AND SEXUALLY ambiguous erotic nymph child?"
but i wanted to say i think it was a coat he chose to wear that enabled him to "pass".

I think that is just who Prince was. He continued to be that ambiguous person throught his lifetime.
Even during the period where he wore a lot of suites and a more 'conservative' look in the 2000s, there were photos of him 'off camera' wearing more 'feminine' things like lace underneath his coats and such.

Looking at his life and career from beginning to end it was always the same, always that.

OldFriends4Sale said:

purplefam99 said:

bodhitheblackdog, i know your asking 1725 this

"in your opinion, was Prince also a 'racially AND SEXUALLY ambiguous erotic nymph child?"
but i wanted to say i think it was a coat he chose to wear that enabled him to "pass".

I think that is just who Prince was. He continued to be that ambiguous person throught his lifetime.
Even during the period where he wore a lot of suites and a more 'conservative' look in the 2000s, there were photos of him 'off camera' wearing more 'feminine' things like lace underneath his coats and such.

Looking at his life and career from beginning to end it was always the same, always that.

I agree...even when he was wearing those outfits with the T SHirts bearing SPencer J Derry,s Art

he was wearing them with slinky lycra bell bottoms that no man in his right mind would be caught wearing...

He just loved Clothes and good tailoring and because he didnt need to wear a bra

he changed thigs up a little here and there and wore Lace Corsets....

I really dont think it was a contrived thing at all...

Of course it contributed to this so called "Ambiguity"

but that is WHo he was....

Racially Sexually and often verbally ambiguous too....

OldFriends4Sale said:

Not the "for you" period.

Lovejunky said:

He and Steven Tyler wore some clothes.

OldFriends4Sale said:

purplefam99 said:

did you mean for it to be a still shot or video?

that is an image from the interview where the original question was talked about. So I assume Lee probably asked 0+> sometime earlier.

*

The question or topic of the complexion of the women in Prince's videos or films is not addressed in the interview from which this image comes. This picture comes from the VH1 to 1 interview with Chris Rock, and, again, the question of the complexion of the women in his videos or films is never addressed. Y'all can watch the entire interview here: https://www.youtube.com/w...8ZXZws9PE.

*

Also, Rock does ask Prince about his androgyny, and Prince gives a two part answer. Frist he says, "I wasn't really searching just being the natural Gemini that I am." Then, he adds, "But, there was some acting going on as well," which proves that Prince was as calculating as much as being his natural self in both his racial presentation and his sexual presentation. He understood the racial and sexual flashpoints that drove America and used them to the fullest as his answer in this interview shows.

*

Of course, be all that as it may, the best thing about that interview is Prince explaining why he chose not to sing "Bad" with MJ. That's classic Prince humor.

purplefam99 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I think that is just who Prince was. He continued to be that ambiguous person throught his lifetime.
Even during the period where he wore a lot of suites and a more 'conservative' look in the 2000s, there were photos of him 'off camera' wearing more 'feminine' things like lace underneath his coats and such.

Looking at his life and career from beginning to end it was always the same, always that.

Not the "for you" period.

well of course, but it was there. just not in the style.

He was already wearing leggings over his jeans.

the For You period was very short, the Prince period is where HE kicked in.

.

But titling a song 'Jack U Off' and the whole Lovesexy naked on the cover, identifying with a French hermaphrodite named Camille in 1988 was not to pass into fame and success.

Lovejunky said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I think that is just who Prince was. He continued to be that ambiguous person throught his lifetime.
Even during the period where he wore a lot of suites and a more 'conservative' look in the 2000s, there were photos of him 'off camera' wearing more 'feminine' things like lace underneath his coats and such.

Looking at his life and career from beginning to end it was always the same, always that.

I agree...even when he was wearing those outfits with the T SHirts bearing SPencer J Derry,s Art

he was wearing them with slinky lycra bell bottoms that no man in his right mind would be caught wearing...

He just loved Clothes and good tailoring and because he didnt need to wear a bra

he changed thigs up a little here and there and wore Lace Corsets....

I really dont think it was a contrived thing at all...

Of course it contributed to this so called "Ambiguity"

but that is WHo he was....

Racially Sexually and often verbally ambiguous too....

*

So, when Prince says in the VH1 to 1 Interview with Chris Rock, to Rock's question about the androgyny, that "There was a lot of acting going on as well," should we not take Prince at his word? What one person calls contrived, another person may call calculating. But, Prince, based on this and many other statements that he has made, was definitely manipulating America's obsession, fear, and anxiety with race and sexuality. I’m not saying that he was a fake or a phony, but as an African-American man he definitely seemed to understand that he needed to navigate/manipulate the white power structure, and androgyny is one way to do it. And, before we evoke the name David Bowie, let’s remember that Little Richard crafted that blueprint long before Bowie. What Bowie did for shock value and to have some real conversations about gender, Little Richard did for survival because that was the only way that white men would not lynch him for white girls screaming at his shows. And, those are Little Richard’s words, not mine.

1725topp said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

that is an image from the interview where the original question was talked about. So I assume Lee probably asked 0+> sometime earlier.

*

The question or topic of the complexion of the women in Prince's videos or films is not addressed in the interview from which this image comes. This picture comes from the VH1 to 1 interview with Chris Rock, and, again, the question of the complexion of the women in his videos or films is never addressed. Y'all can watch the entire interview here: https://www.youtube.com/w...8ZXZws9PE.

*

Also, Rock does ask Prince about his androgyny, and Prince gives a two part answer. Frist he says, "I wasn't really searching just being the natural Gemini that I am." Then, he adds, "But, there was some acting going on as well," which proves that Prince was as calculating as much as being his natural self in both his racial presentation and his sexual presentation. He understood the racial and sexual flashpoints that drove America and used them to the fullest as his answer in this interview shows.

*

Of course, be all that as it may, the best thing about that interview is Prince explaining why he chose not to sing "Bad" with MJ. That's classic Prince humor.

Yes, thank you.

I knew it was from the Emancipation or 1997-1998 period. I connected the green outfit/white bomber with Spike Lee to the 'discussion'

Some of my fav interviews from this period 2nd only to the 1985 interviews.

1725topp said:

Lovejunky said:

I agree...even when he was wearing those outfits with the T SHirts bearing SPencer J Derry,s Art

he was wearing them with slinky lycra bell bottoms that no man in his right mind would be caught wearing...

He just loved Clothes and good tailoring and because he didnt need to wear a bra

he changed thigs up a little here and there and wore Lace Corsets....

I really dont think it was a contrived thing at all...

Of course it contributed to this so called "Ambiguity"

but that is WHo he was....

Racially Sexually and often verbally ambiguous too....

*

So, when Prince says in the VH1 to 1 Interview with Chris Rock, to Rock's question about the androgyny, that "There was a lot of acting going on as well," should we not take Prince at his word? What one person calls contrived, another person may call calculating. But, Prince, based on this and many other statements that he has made, was definitely manipulating America's obsession, fear, and anxiety with race and sexuality. I’m not saying that he was a fake or a phony, but as an African-American man he definitely seemed to understand that he needed to navigate/manipulate the white power structure, and androgyny is one way to do it. And, before we evoke the name David Bowie, let’s remember that Little Richard crafted that blueprint long before Bowie. What Bowie did for shock value and to have some real conversations about gender, Little Richard did for survival because that was the only way that white men would not lynch him for white girls screaming at his shows. And, those are Little Richard’s words, not mine.

Good ...I can tolerate most different opinions

but I couldnt tolerate THAT....

OldFriends4Sale said:

1725topp said:

*

The question or topic of the complexion of the women in Prince's videos or films is not addressed in the interview from which this image comes. This picture comes from the VH1 to 1 interview with Chris Rock, and, again, the question of the complexion of the women in his videos or films is never addressed. Y'all can watch the entire interview here: https://www.youtube.com/w...8ZXZws9PE.

*

Also, Rock does ask Prince about his androgyny, and Prince gives a two part answer. Frist he says, "I wasn't really searching just being the natural Gemini that I am." Then, he adds, "But, there was some acting going on as well," which proves that Prince was as calculating as much as being his natural self in both his racial presentation and his sexual presentation. He understood the racial and sexual flashpoints that drove America and used them to the fullest as his answer in this interview shows.

*

Of course, be all that as it may, the best thing about that interview is Prince explaining why he chose not to sing "Bad" with MJ. That's classic Prince humor.

Yes, thank you.

I knew it was from the Emancipation or 1997-1998 period. I connected the green outfit/white bomber with Spike Lee to the 'discussion'

Some of my fav interviews from this period 2nd only to the 1985 interviews.

*

I definitely enjoyed the accessibility of this period. From 1997 - 1999, ending with the 1998 New Year's Eve show in Houston, TX, my wife and I all but stalked Prince concerts across the south.

Lovejunky said:

1725topp said:

*

So, when Prince says in the VH1 to 1 Interview with Chris Rock, to Rock's question about the androgyny, that "There was a lot of acting going on as well," should we not take Prince at his word? What one person calls contrived, another person may call calculating. But, Prince, based on this and many other statements that he has made, was definitely manipulating America's obsession, fear, and anxiety with race and sexuality. I’m not saying that he was a fake or a phony, but as an African-American man he definitely seemed to understand that he needed to navigate/manipulate the white power structure, and androgyny is one way to do it. And, before we evoke the name David Bowie, let’s remember that Little Richard crafted that blueprint long before Bowie. What Bowie did for shock value and to have some real conversations about gender, Little Richard did for survival because that was the only way that white men would not lynch him for white girls screaming at his shows. And, those are Little Richard’s words, not mine.

Good ...I can tolerate most different opinions

but I couldnt tolerate THAT....

1725topp said:

Yes OF4S just posted something on another thread this same video and I mentioned
That Prince said there was lots of pretending going on.

OF4S you should post that portion of the video here!!

purplefam99 said:

1725topp said:

*

The question or topic of the complexion of the women in Prince's videos or films is not addressed in the interview from which this image comes. This picture comes from the VH1 to 1 interview with Chris Rock, and, again, the question of the complexion of the women in his videos or films is never addressed. Y'all can watch the entire interview here: https://www.youtube.com/w...8ZXZws9PE.

*

Also, Rock does ask Prince about his androgyny, and Prince gives a two part answer. Frist he says, "I wasn't really searching just being the natural Gemini that I am." Then, he adds, "But, there was some acting going on as well," which proves that Prince was as calculating as much as being his natural self in both his racial presentation and his sexual presentation. He understood the racial and sexual flashpoints that drove America and used them to the fullest as his answer in this interview shows.

*

Of course, be all that as it may, the best thing about that interview is Prince explaining why he chose not to sing "Bad" with MJ. That's classic Prince humor.

Yes OF4S just posted something on another thread this same video and I mentioned That Prince said there was lots of pretending going on. OF4S you should post that portion of the video here!!

1725topp posted it in his post. the first paragraph. I borrowed it.

Well he didn't say there was a lot of pretending going on.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Ha I and totally think he may have done it for fame. I'm telling ya
The sector that had the extra cash to buy albums and tickets to shows
Really liked those tasty bits. They aren't the only ones but certainly the one
With allowances and disposable income. Allowance for chores for being a part
Of the family I didn't get paid for that!

1725topp said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Yes, thank you.

I knew it was from the Emancipation or 1997-1998 period. I connected the green outfit/white bomber with Spike Lee to the 'discussion'

Some of my fav interviews from this period 2nd only to the 1985 interviews.

*

I definitely enjoyed the accessibility of this period. From 1997 - 1999, ending with the 1998 New Year's Eve show in Houston, TX, my wife and I all but stalked Prince concerts across the south.

those 'fans' out there hating Mayte right now, can hate if they want. But she did some good 4 0+> during that period. yes very accessible. He seemed to not fight his superstar status like he seemed to do in the early 90s. That was a very interesting and fun period. The album might not have hit so much but his performances and shows were wonderful.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Then what is acting????

Sooooo are we gonna take Prince at his word in the video
That there was a lot of "acting" going on?

purplefam99 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

well of course, but it was there. just not in the style.

He was already wearing leggings over his jeans.

the For You period was very short, the Prince period is where HE kicked in.

.

But titling a song 'Jack U Off' and the whole Lovesexy naked on the cover, identifying with a French hermaphrodite named Camille in 1988 was not to pass into fame and success.

Ha I and totally think he may have done it for fame. I'm telling ya The sector that had the extra cash to buy albums and tickets to shows Really liked those tasty bits. They aren't the only ones but certainly the one With allowances and disposable income. Allowance for chores for being a part Of the family I didn't get paid for that!

There was a thread about the Lovesexy cover a few years ago, and Prince talking about why he did it. Cat Glover shared some insight too. It doesn't seem to be about 'for the fame' I mean if you think about his static in why he did the Black album and that is contradictory.
.
Now him pulling in Tony M incorporating a 'gansta lean' to his image(just a touch) and music was for the fame.

.

But posing naked on the cover and increasing the androgeny in 1988/89 with the changes happening in pop culture could not. I think it was simply Prince just like his innocence at singing Jack U Off (Dez Dickerson said he really didn't understand that men don't jack off women). It wasn't an act.

purplefam99 said:

Soooooo are we gonna take Prince at his word in the video That there was a lot of "acting" going on?

can you quote where he said that?

You insert [A LOT of acting]. Prince said 'a little' acting and explains what he means

that is a blatant misrepresentation of what he said. changing that 1 world a 'little' 2 a 'lot' changes the whole picture and scope of things.

can you see how you are twisting it?

He wasn't talking about the androgeny. from 1979-2016 Prince was that.
Are you uncomfortable with Prince's 'queerness'?

.

I don't suppose I was searching
*I was being who I was*

Being the true gemini that I am

and there are many sides to that as well

and there was a little acting going on too as well

we had the scene where I would go hug the bass player hes a man

and I would go kiss the keyboard player, she a girl

ya know, but that is rock n roll

purplefam99 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

1725topp posted it in his post. the first paragraph. I borrowed it.

Well he didn't say there was a lot of pretending going on.

Then what is acting????

all entertainers act. That doesn't mean they are not who they are presenting.
I would say the ones who reached superstardom and longevity, are living out loud who they are.

OldFriends4Sale said:

OF4S! The man answers Chris's question you got to give that more than your giving.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Forgive the misquote a little acting.

Doesn't he say something in the interview about having to
Pander to what the audience wants??? Hmmmmm.

purplefam99 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

can you quote where he said that?

You insert [A LOT of acting]. Prince said 'a little' acting and explains what he means

that is a blatant misrepresentation of what he said. changing that 1 world a 'little' 2 a 'lot' changes the whole picture and scope of things.

can you see how you are twisting it?

He wasn't talking about the androgeny. from 1979-2016 Prince was that.
Are you uncomfortable with Prince's 'queerness'?

.

I don't suppose I was searching
*I was being who I was*

Being the true gemini that I am

and there are many sides to that as well

and there was a little acting going on too as well

we had the scene where I would go hug the bass player hes a man

and I would go kiss the keyboard player, she a girl

ya know, but that is rock n roll

Forgive the misquote a little acting.

No to answer your question.

Does the bolded constitute flame bait??

if not lets leave the testiness out. please.

i believe it's possible he said what he said because he might have been embarrassed by some of the things in his past. It's perfectly understandable, i tell people "imagine if you had cameras following you everywhere in your early twenties, you'd be pretty embarrassed by some of it too". Humping the stage, ass hanging out, rubbing up on the guys in the band, wearing a dress, it's bound to make you a little self conscious in an interview. so.., "i was just playing".

1725topp said:

Lovejunky said:

I agree...even when he was wearing those outfits with the T SHirts bearing SPencer J Derry,s Art

he was wearing them with slinky lycra bell bottoms that no man in his right mind would be caught wearing...

He just loved Clothes and good tailoring and because he didnt need to wear a bra

he changed thigs up a little here and there and wore Lace Corsets....

I really dont think it was a contrived thing at all...

Of course it contributed to this so called "Ambiguity"

but that is WHo he was....

Racially Sexually and often verbally ambiguous too....

*

So, when Prince says in the VH1 to 1 Interview with Chris Rock, to Rock's question about the androgyny, that "There was a lot of acting going on as well," should we not take Prince at his word? What one person calls contrived, another person may call calculating. But, Prince, based on this and many other statements that he has made, was definitely manipulating America's obsession, fear, and anxiety with race and sexuality. I’m not saying that he was a fake or a phony, but as an African-American man he definitely seemed to understand that he needed to navigate/manipulate the white power structure, and androgyny is one way to do it. And, before we evoke the name David Bowie, let’s remember that Little Richard crafted that blueprint long before Bowie. What Bowie did for shock value and to have some real conversations about gender, Little Richard did for survival because that was the only way that white men would not lynch him for white girls screaming at his shows. And, those are Little Richard’s words, not mine.

1725topp said:

Thanks again for your contributions to this thread 1725topp.