DD55 said:

206Michelle said:

Prince had an iron will about certain things (e.g. his privacy, having commercial and creative control of his music). It's becoming more obvious to me that other people knew he had a problem. Maybe some of these people tried to help him get help and he refused the help.

.

I wonder how much certain friends or family who were in contact with him close to the time of his death knew or did not know about his addiction? The people who come to mind are Damaris Lewis, Tamron Hall, Shelby J, and Tyka. Both Shelby J and Tyka have shared that he knew his days were numbered.

Sorry to come across nasty, but where was Larry F%$king Graham??? Or was he the one who got P hooked. P spent 15 years trying to bring to like his L’s dead career at the expense of his own. why? Sorry….. had to say that. Mods, delete as necessary.

edit typo

[Edited 4/17/17 18:09pm]

For whatever reason, I didn't think of Larry Graham when I wrote my comment, but yes, he would be another member of that inner circle for sure.

DD55 said:

laytonian said:

sonshine said:

disch said:

Hmm sounds like we're just on a different page here. That's OK. I don't know how else to explain that we don't have any factual info about the role chronic pain played in his life at the end of his life. (If you have factual info, please share!) Saying that we don't have the facts is not the same thing as saying it didn't play a role.

-

As for what led to his addiction: I think what you're asking is why he took that first opioid pill? I think I've already said what I think a few times in this thread. Physical pain is definitely a possible reason; it seems likely, given what we know about his past. Or it's possible it was another reason, like something emotional. (I know it's very important for some people to identify why he first opioids, because it's a moral issue for them, but it's just not really a moral thing for me.)

-

The most pressing issue for me isn't why his relationship with opioids started; it's where it ended.

-

And again, sorry about the pain you're dealing with

babynoz said:

Perhaps if you did some reading on the success rate of hip replacement/maintenance procedures you'd understand better what he was likely dealing with.

Again, since it's a given that proof isn't forthcoming via medical records that none of us will be privy to, on what basis do you have doubts and what is your alternative theory for what led to the addiction if it wasn't pain?

Thanks

What I am specifically asking is that since you keep bringing up no factual info of a chronic pain as the reason you are doubtful, then what evidence or proof do you have for your alternative theory? Let's leave morality out of it because it seems that is where you think I'm going but it's not.

Let me put it another way. If you cite no proof as the reason to doubt the pain connection then how do you arrive at the conclusion that it could have been for some other reason when you have even less proof of something else?

Here in California, they clamped down on doctors prescribing narcotics. I only know because a lot of folks I know were incredibly upset because their doctors were not so generous with their scripts. There was a panic!

And some states have gotten far more cautious. I had someone I know scared to leave California to Washington State or Arizona for fear of not getting their scripts anymore. I have no idea how Minnesota stands on this.

babynoz, due respect, but i don't keep bringing it up. I mentioned it once and you've asked me multiple times to explain myself. I've tried to answer you as best I can, but it sounds like my responses haven't satisfied you so I don't know what else to say.

-

For the last time: I'm not doubting it. I'm saying we don't have facts so we can't say the role chronic pain played in his life at the end of his life. It might have played an ENORMOUS role. Or it might have played no role. It's really hard to say.

-

And once again: I believe he was addicted to opioids. I do not know the path that led him to his addiction, but I believe that was his reality when he died. I believe his addiction and withdrawal symptoms were the most urgent medical crisis he was facing at the very end of his life.

babynoz said:

disch said:

Hmm sounds like we're just on a different page here. That's OK. I don't know how else to explain that we don't have any factual info about the role chronic pain played in his life at the end of his life. (If you have factual info, please share!) Saying that we don't have the facts is not the same thing as saying it didn't play a role.

-

As for what led to his addiction: I think what you're asking is why he took that first opioid pill? I think I've already said what I think a few times in this thread. Physical pain is definitely a possible reason; it seems likely, given what we know about his past. Or it's possible it was another reason, like something emotional. (I know it's very important for some people to identify why he first opioids, because it's a moral issue for them, but it's just not really a moral thing for me.)

-

The most pressing issue for me isn't why his relationship with opioids started; it's where it ended.

-

And again, sorry about the pain you're dealing with

Thanks

What I am specifically asking is that since you keep bringing up no factual info of a chronic pain as the reason you are doubtful, then what evidence or proof do you have for your alternative theory? Let's leave morality out of it because it seems that is where you think I'm going but it's not.

Let me put it another way. If you cite no proof as the reason to doubt the pain connection then how do you arrive at the conclusion that it could have been for some other reason when you have even less proof of something else?

[Edited 4/17/17 18:35pm]

PennyPurple said:

moonsister said:

Lovejunky said:

co sign Mumio...

Additionally...Wouldnt the snap lock bags and envelopes containing the unsubscribes substances have been fingerprinted ( ? )

If Kirk had anything to do with them at all he would have been positively incriminated by now !

Also....Do we really believe that Prince left pills scattered all over the place..He had cleaning staff.....I dont buy that he was so Loopy as some have suggested, that he randomly left them here and there...? The man was meticulous ...leaving pills lying around at the risk that they would be discovered does not match the Profile of someone who was as attentive to the smallest details as Prince was....

I read they were found in his bedroom, dressing room/closet, and laundry room

Yes..I read that too...

Maybe he made his own bed, organised his own closet and did his own laundry ..otherwise I stand firm in my belief that he would not have left them lying around...which of course rubs me further and suggests that all the extra stuff was planted and the Fentanyl overdose was a one of...

First time he took whatever pill it was found in !

Which leaves us where we have been since last year ?

WHo got him the illegal pills, becasue even if he got them online...someone would have had to either sign for a parcel somewhere ?

Unless of Course he had them delivered to

PRINCE

7801 Audobon Road

Chanhassen

Ummm...NO !

Of COURSE he didnt do that..

there was obviously another Person involved...

and that person is carrying a LOT of guilt and personal pain...

Their very own tailor made CROSS

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

Lovejunky said:

Mumio said:

Anyone questioned for even one minute if there were pills found all over PP and the notion that Kirk is responsible for what happened to P, then why would someone who has had open access to PP for YEARS not have gone around and cleaned up all the pill evidence before the police arrived? He bought bad shit for P, planted it in pill bottles, and then just LEFT it all there so the cops would find it and look at him????

Sorry but nope, not buying that bs for one minute. If he was that devious, the evidence wouldn't have been left there

co sign Mumio...

Additionally...Wouldnt the snap lock bags and envelopes containing the unsubscribes substances have been fingerprinted ( ? )

If Kirk had anything to do with them at all he would have been positively incriminated by now !

Also....Do we really believe that Prince left pills scattered all over the place..He had cleaning staff.....I dont buy that he was so Loopy as some have suggested, that he randomly left them here and there...? The man was meticulous ...leaving pills lying around at the risk that they would be discovered does not match the Profile of someone who was as attentive to the smallest details as Prince was....

Kirk could not have "cleaned up" the place because there were witnesses present when they found P.

The ziploc bags mentioned in the warrant were found in Andrew Kornfields bag. Those were not P's or Kirk's drugs, but the drugs that Andrew K brought with him to PP.

The scattered pills raise a red flag for me. Prince was supposedly a bit of a neat freak and I can't imagine him having pills in several places in PP like what has been described. I know that I keep my Rxs in 1 location in my house and I'm that much of a neat freak. This info has never sit quite right with me.

Lovejunky said:

206Michelle said:

DD55 said:

Sorry to come across nasty, but where was Larry F%$king Graham??? Or was he the one who got P hooked. P spent 15 years trying to bring to like his L’s dead career at the expense of his own. why? Sorry….. had to say that. Mods, delete as necessary.

edit typo

[Edited 4/17/17 18:09pm]

For whatever reason, I didn't think of Larry Graham when I wrote my comment, but yes, he would be another member of that inner circle for sure.

Prince was probably hiding his pill problem from LG and the JWs because he could kicked out of the JWs if they found out.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

disch said:

I think at the end of his life, the thing that was killing him (and did kill him) was his opioid addiction. I don't believe he died of joint pain.

-

In other words, his physical addiction to opioids had driven him to do various less-than-ideal things such as acquire black-market drugs and get a doctor to prescribe drugs in his friend's name. So it's hard to say what role hip pain played in the final stage of a situation where clearly lies and deception were sadly going on.

-

No, why did he take that first opioid pill, whenever that was? Who knows? It certainly might have been physical pain. But whatever the reason for that initial exposure, by the end it had taken a different, tragic turn into addiction.

-

And the whole "recreational use" thing is something I have trouble with. For some reason, some people are comfortable with with the idea of illicit use of opioids to self-medicate physical pain, but are repelled by illicit opioids to self-medicate emotional pain, which gets dumped into the "recreational use" bucket. But that's a debate that's happened many times here and not really part of this.

EMOTIONAL pain can be every bit as tormenting and crazy-making as physical pain...maybe moreso.

AMEN.

Lovejunky said:

disch said:

babynoz, due respect, but i don't keep bringing it up. I mentioned it once and you've asked me multiple times to explain myself. I've tried to answer you as best I can, but it sounds like my responses haven't satisfied you so I don't know what else to say.

-

For the last time: I'm not doubting it. I'm saying we don't have facts so we can't say the role chronic pain played in his life at the end of his life. It might have played an ENORMOUS role. Or it might have played no role. It's really hard to say.

-

And once again: I believe he was addicted to opioids. I do not know the path that led him to his addiction, but I believe that was his reality when he died. I believe his addiction and withdrawal symptoms were the most urgent medical crisis he was facing at the very end of his life.

babynoz said:

Thanks

What I am specifically asking is that since you keep bringing up no factual info of a chronic pain as the reason you are doubtful, then what evidence or proof do you have for your alternative theory? Let's leave morality out of it because it seems that is where you think I'm going but it's not.

Let me put it another way. If you cite no proof as the reason to doubt the pain connection then how do you arrive at the conclusion that it could have been for some other reason when you have even less proof of something else?

[Edited 4/17/17 18:35pm]

I agree with the bolded and do not think it was ever in dispute.


I was simply wondering if you had evidence to the contrary about the chronic pain, but I see that you don't.

No worries.

I didn't really picture a bunch of meds lying around (like scattered all over the floor or something). I pictured them squirreled away in various bottles and tucked into cabinets, drawers etc.

moonsister said:

Lovejunky said:

Yes..I read that too...

Maybe he made his own bed, organised his own closet and did his own laundry ..otherwise I stand firm in my belief that he would not have left them lying around...which of course rubs me further and suggests that all the extra stuff was planted and the Fentanyl overdose was a one of...

First time he took whatever pill it was found in !

But they were hidden in vitamin bottles, or Aleve bottles, etc. His staff may have had no idea what was there. As for delivery if the pills were ordered over the Internet? Maybe a PO box?

disch said:

I didn't really picture a bunch of meds lying around (like scattered all over the floor or something). I pictured them squirreled away in various bottles and tucked into cabinets, drawers etc.

moonsister said:

Lovejunky said: But they were hidden in vitamin bottles, or Aleve bottles, etc. His staff may have had no idea what was there. As for delivery if the pills were ordered over the Internet? Maybe a PO box?

I agree disch. In addition, we don't know how old some of them are. I have meds that are old and need to be discarded, I think most of us do.

DD55 said:

LOVESYMBOLNUMBER2 said:

I think the pills laying all over sounds so fishy, it's one of the things that really makes me wonder?? Did anyone ever say what time kirk and co. Arrived at paisley on the 21st?

Did you read the warrants? They do not say pills were "laying all over". They were in various places in vitamin and aspirin type bottles. Is is so hard to imagine he may have had some in the kitchen or near the studios and offices he worked in too? Y'all just repeat stuff someone else says.

[Edited 4/17/17 19:01pm]

laytonian said:

Please go to the source documents before engaging in too much speculation and too much emotion. There is nothing very explosive in them. Make your own conclusions before following any media hype or other peoples' conclusions

http://www.mncourts.gov/In-Re-The-Investigation-into-the-Death-of-Prince-Rogers-Nelson

purplepoppy said:

Ingela said:

Here in California, they clamped down on doctors prescribing narcotics. I only know because a lot of folks I know were incredibly upset because their doctors were not so generous with their scripts. There was a panic!

And some states have gotten far more cautious. I had someone I know scared to leave California to Washington State or Arizona for fear of not getting their scripts anymore. I have no idea how Minnesota stands on this.

In the Kansas City, Missouri area, most of the Drs. have stopped writing these scripts and you have to go to pain management to get these drugs and when you get them from pain management or really any other dr, they make you sign a contract stating that you will only use 1 pharmacy to get them filled and you have to tell them which pharmacy and location. You have to be drug tested. They will not give you anymore then 30 days worth, even if there are 31 days in the month. And they don't care if your dog or cat ate them. They are so much on lock down anymore, that is why people are turning to the streets for them. Meth is big here in Missouri. I've heard that heroin use is also on the rise across the Nation.

.

Earlier in the thread someone said that I don't blame the Drs. or Big Pharma. That statement couldn't be more wrong. Oxy was so easy to get back in the day because Big Pharma said it was the cure all for pain, Drs. were being rewarded for giving out prescriptions for it. What Big Pharma failed to tell the world was, how addicting it was. Even for someone who only had a script for a surgery, they became addicted. Now that it has became an epidemic and people who are already hooked due to chronic pain can barely get them, they have to turn to illegal drugs. And shit like what happened to Prince is happening all over the States.

.

How do I know all of this? My husband has a rare spinal cord disease, multiple surgeries and brain surgery. He's been on super high doses of this medicine. His Drs. quit prescribing these pills, (thankfully) and sent him to pain management (which we'd been there plenty of times before) and they kept sending him back to the Neurologist who kept upping his dose, until we found a different pain management group, who freaked out over his high doseage, they've been weaning him off for 4 years now. Thankfully he is now off of this medicine. All I'm saying is you can't wean yourself off of these meds cold turkey. Prince tried to do it himself. It should have only been done under a drs care. I don't think you stand a chance if you try to do it yourself, especially if someone has been on it for years and on high doses.

.

My husband was never doped up, he led a normal life and people outside of the family wouldn't even know he was on pain meds. Not one time was he acting high, or out of it. He became tolerant to it. So for the ones who are saying if Prince was that doped up he wouldn't be able to perform, that is BS. He was tolerant to it, and you couldn't even tell.

.

Just my take on the situation. There is a difference between one who is on pain pills for pain and one who is on pain pills for shits and giggles. From everything that has been said about Prince being in pain, I believe that he was taking them for pain, he wasn't taking them to get high. But this 'miracle' drug that big Pharma sold to the Drs, who then sold to us, did work for the pain, but you couldn't get off the damn stuff.

I was reading the article written today about Judith Hill and her relationship. When talking about the Moline incident where P was unresponsive she said...

“We knew it was only a matter of time; we had to get down,” Hill said. “We didn’t have anything on the plane to help him.”

Looking back in hindsight, she didn't have a save shot. Of course it's just me reading into the statment, but it sounds like she knew the extent of the issue

tmo1965 said:

Kirk could not have "cleaned up" the place because there were witnesses present when they found P.

Of course he could have. If he was responsible for all this as some believe, he could have gone back to PP at any time, let himself in to clean up the evidence, locked up and left with all of it.

rogifan said:

BanishedBrian said:

A couple points...

I think Prince in 2016 was VERY different from Prince 1995/96 when he was with Mayte. I say that just from observing him, including at concerts. He was very image conscious during his days, and quite standoffish. For example, I attended a dance party at PP Thanksgiving weekend in 1996. I think this was about a month after the baby had died. popped into the room a few times throughout the night, and just from observing him there that night, I can relate to what Mayte says about him in that era. By contrast, the last 5 years or so, he's seemed very different from that person He clearly had changed, and was just more relaxed around people.

I think part of that relaxation was not needing to dress 365/24/7 as "Prince" the way he did back then. He learned to age with grace. He'd have looked silly trying to wear similar custom outfits in his 50s to those he wore during the Mayte era. The black clothes were just casual clothes, perhaps representing his comfort about letting his work be judged on the substance instead of needing a lot of image and razzle/dazzle with it. That's why he was comfortable with just a piano and a mic... let the music do the talking. The black on black looked nice and simple - you act like there's some big difference with wearing a black sweatshirt versus wearing a gray sweatshirt. I think you're reading too much into it.

Hey we have no time for sane, reasonable posts here.

I know right, Rogifan?

BanishedBrian, you are a refreshing voice of level-headed reason amongst the Chaos & Disorder.

DD55 said:

precioux said:

and another thing...if KJ KNEW the Rx was for oxycodone, WHY did he tell medical personnel @ the hospital in Moline (read the warrant) that it was "probably percocet?" Hence, TMZ reporting an overdose on PERCOCET. Who leaked this info? The medical team or KJ?! Being "percocet" came out of KJ's mouth, and it was in fact the WRONG name of the pill

I think... someone correct me if I'm wrong. Oxy is a generic ingredient in Percocet which contains other ingredients. So, kinda the same thing basically.

Yep, They are pretty much the same thing. I've been prescribed percocet post-surgeries and when went to pick it up from pharmacy was given Oxy.