djThunderfunk said:

Moonbeam said:

Militant said: I don't agree that everyone would have voted for an uncirculting song. I would have voted for "Moonbeam Levels"! But even more broadly, I am sure there are many fans who had not heard the song but were aware of its reputation that may have voted for it. Or there are others like me who love the song and wanted to see its official release. We can look at the voted tracklist for Crystal Ball 2 as a precedent: http://princevault.com/in..._Volume_II Songs that weren't circulating like "Come Elektra Tuesday" and "If It'll Make U Happy" were passed over in favor of circulating songs like "Electric Intercourse" and "Extraloveable". Plus, the context of the release of this vault song was that it would be placed in the middle of a 2-disc hits compilation. Would fans risk a completely uncirculating song of unknown quality over voting for a known favorite? Imagine "Purple and Gold" was an uncirculating song and fans had voted for that to be included to rub shoulders with songs like "When Doves Cry" and "Sign o' the Times". [Edited 3/10/17 13:39pm]

You make a good case and I might agree with you if I thought WB's unreleased tracks were going to be high quality improvements to tracks we had heard (like we got with Crystal Ball). But, I'm worried that the best we can expect is comparable to the best boots in circulation (like we got with ML on 4Ever), and if that is the case, I would agree with Militant and prefer uncirculating material.

Eh, the quality of "Moonbeam Levels" as released is quite decent. I'm happy to have paid for it! If an even better version is released on a 1999 reissue, I'll be happy with that, too!

Moonbeam said:

djThunderfunk said:

You make a good case and I might agree with you if I thought WB's unreleased tracks were going to be high quality improvements to tracks we had heard (like we got with Crystal Ball). But, I'm worried that the best we can expect is comparable to the best boots in circulation (like we got with ML on 4Ever), and if that is the case, I would agree with Militant and prefer uncirculating material.

Eh, the quality of "Moonbeam Levels" as released is quite decent. I'm happy to have paid for it! If an even better version is released on a 1999 reissue, I'll be happy with that, too!

Yeah, it's "decent". The problem is that it's no better than the best of the bootleg releases.
Most of us that collect bootlegs also collect official releases and are happy to pay to upgrade to a perfect quality professional release.
We got just that with the tracks on Crystal Ball that had previously appeared on bootleg.
Some of them had circulated in excellent quality, but still, the official releases tended to sound better.
Not so with Moonbeam Levels.
Not only did it not sound perfect, it didn't even sound "better" than the best circulating.
In fact, it seems to be from the same source, not a master.
If that is what we can expect from future releases, I'd prefer to get some unheard tracks over tracks that are circulating.

Just sayin'...

Moonbeam said:

djThunderfunk said:

You make a good case and I might agree with you if I thought WB's unreleased tracks were going to be high quality improvements to tracks we had heard (like we got with Crystal Ball). But, I'm worried that the best we can expect is comparable to the best boots in circulation (like we got with ML on 4Ever), and if that is the case, I would agree with Militant and prefer uncirculating material.

Eh, the quality of "Moonbeam Levels" as released is quite decent. I'm happy to have paid for it! If an even better version is released on a 1999 reissue, I'll be happy with that, too!

which is part of the reason i bet the version of "Electric Intercourse" we will get is the one that is circulating

djThunderfunk said:

We got just that with the tracks on Crystal Ball that had previously appeared on bootleg.
Some of them had circulated in excellent quality, but still, the official releases tended to sound better.

.

Most of CB sounded godawful. Brickwalled to death. One of the abundance of reasons to dislike that set.

Militant said:

It's a fact that the excitement level for the inclusion of the song was pretty tame..... because most hardcore fans have heard it for 20 years. Hell, if an unreleased song is well known enough that Elvis Costello covers it, that kind of says it all. There's songs that Prince did release that are less well known than Moonbeam Levels!

I think it's pretty safe to say that if WB had ran a poll and said "We're going to release ONE vault song, you guys pick which one" then Moonbeam Levels wouldn't get too many votes. Obviously everyone would vote for something nobody, or very few people had heard. Enthusiasm for the release would have doubled or tripled by doing this. There's no reason they couldn't have included ML as well as another unreleased (and completely unheard songs). Hell, for a 2-disc release, one unreleased song per disc isn't exactly a huge ask.

I remember when Tupac's Greatest Hits came out about 18 months after he passed - there were 4 unreleased songs on it, 2 per disc. And one of them, "Changes", was the single and became one of the biggest selling hip-hop songs of all time. That's the playbook they should have gone by - obviously we're in a different era now, but Tupac's Greatest Hits sold over 10 million records and won a Grammy.

I totally agree.I like "Moonbeam Levels" alot,but it's one of the most well-known unreleased songs and,let's face it,most of us had it already I think they should have dug deeper and put something really rare and surprising on 4Ever.And yeah,they should have added another previously unreleased song on the other disc.

bluegangsta said:

Rebeljuice said:

He said he was aware of this particular thread and the tracklisting and whilst he did not confirm or deny how accurate it is (or isnt) specifically, he did say that there are discrepancies with what is on here and with what will be released (as far as he has heard). The only tidbit he offered me was that some fans whose suggestions and wishes he has seen on this thread will be very happy indeed.

If tht's the case, I would like to make them aware of my dream tracklist...

Disc 1: Uncut Album

1. Let's Go Crazy (12" Version)
2. Take Me With U (with extended coda)
3. The Beautiful Ones (with additional verse)
4. Computer Blue (full "Hallway" version)
5. Darling Nikki (with longer instrumental)
6. When Doves Cry
7. Purple Rain (with extra version and solo)
8. I Would Die 4 U (with extra instrumental section)
9. Baby I'm A Star (with longer intro)
10. Erotic City (12" Version)
11. 17 Days
12. Another Lonely Christmas (12" Version)
13. God

I made a similar compilation long ago for my own personal enjoyment:

Prince And The Revolution: Purple Rain Unedited

1. Let's Go Crazy (7:37) - 12" version

2. Take Me With U (Duet with Apollonia) (4:47)

3. The Beautiful Ones (5:56)

4. Computer Blue (12:07)

5. Darling Nikki (4:15)

6 When Doves Cry (5:52) - album version

7. I Would Die 4 U (3:18)

8. Baby I'm A Star (4:54) - live at 1st Avenue

9. Purple Rain /12:18)

It brought new life to a classic album I had played to death.

[Edited 3/11/17 10:31am]

BartVanHemelen said:

djThunderfunk said:

We got just that with the tracks on Crystal Ball that had previously appeared on bootleg.
Some of them had circulated in excellent quality, but still, the official releases tended to sound better.

.

Most of CB sounded godawful. Brickwalled to death. One of the abundance of reasons to dislike that set.

How is your day?

love2thenines2003 said:

So it seems that this tracklist was a fake.....what a shame. ...maybe the forthcoming tracklist will be more disappointing than this one?. Time will tell

It wouldn't be a new Prince release without at least one fake tracklist.

Even with him gone, some things never change!

Militant said:

I discussed this with Londell at our meeting last month.

I told him straight up that, from a fan perspective, "Moonbeam Levels" was perhaps the least interesting choice to include on "4Ever" because it's one of the most heavily bootlegged songs. At least one completely unheard song would have made a significant impact on excitement levels and thus sales.

He gets it. I think the justification from WB was because they thought they'd get more positive PR from it being a 1999-era song. But the problem with that is that it's only the core fanbase who care what era a song is from, and we've all heard Moonbeam a million times! I think it's fair to say that opinion was split on the 4ever release, when really, all the stops should have been pulled out to ensure it was something the entire fanbase could get behind, and that didn't happen.

It's absolutely imperative that they approach future projects with a knowledge of what's heavily bootlegged, what songs only a few people have, and what songs aren't circulating at all. But between the family wanting to make all the decisions themselves (and fighting with each other about it) and the labels engaging in typical major label bureaucracy, there's a very real chance that we might get disappointed with projects, and that Prince's legacy won't get handled properly.

The good news is that there are several key people fighting to make sure this doesn't happen - bandmembers, engineers, etc. Some of them are hitting brick walls because they don't have good relationships with family members, or with each other. But there is at least a handful of people that for the most part, everyone respects and gets on with. Hopefully they can make some groundwork but it's seriously a minefield right now.

TL:DR Anything and everything to do with Prince's Estate is pretty much a fucking nightmare right now for most people.

Thanks Militant for keeping update. I love reading your posts.

BartVanHemelen said:

djThunderfunk said:

We got just that with the tracks on Crystal Ball that had previously appeared on bootleg.
Some of them had circulated in excellent quality, but still, the official releases tended to sound better.

.

Most of CB sounded godawful. Brickwalled to death. One of the abundance of reasons to dislike that set.

Yet, still better than the bootlegs and much better than Moonbeam on 4Ever.

SoulAlive said:

Militant said:

It's a fact that the excitement level for the inclusion of the song was pretty tame..... because most hardcore fans have heard it for 20 years. Hell, if an unreleased song is well known enough that Elvis Costello covers it, that kind of says it all. There's songs that Prince did release that are less well known than Moonbeam Levels!

I think it's pretty safe to say that if WB had ran a poll and said "We're going to release ONE vault song, you guys pick which one" then Moonbeam Levels wouldn't get too many votes. Obviously everyone would vote for something nobody, or very few people had heard. Enthusiasm for the release would have doubled or tripled by doing this. There's no reason they couldn't have included ML as well as another unreleased (and completely unheard songs). Hell, for a 2-disc release, one unreleased song per disc isn't exactly a huge ask.

I remember when Tupac's Greatest Hits came out about 18 months after he passed - there were 4 unreleased songs on it, 2 per disc. And one of them, "Changes", was the single and became one of the biggest selling hip-hop songs of all time. That's the playbook they should have gone by - obviously we're in a different era now, but Tupac's Greatest Hits sold over 10 million records and won a Grammy.

I totally agree.I like "Moonbeam Levels" alot,but it's one of the most well-known unreleased songs and,let's face it,most of us had it already I think they should have dug deeper and put something really rare and surprising on 4Ever.And yeah,they should have added another previously unreleased song on the other disc.

Oh yes I agree. But I also thought 4Ever release was more targeting toward casual or new listeners than diehard fans? Because I feel if they wanted diehard fans to buy the album, the album would have quite a few lesser known tracks. I am now confuse if further releases are going to happen what audience are they trying to aim for?

OnlyNDaUsa said:

ladygirl99 said:

Militant said:

I discussed this with Londell at our meeting last month.

I told him straight up that, from a fan perspective, "Moonbeam Levels" was perhaps the least interesting choice to include on "4Ever" because it's one of the most heavily bootlegged songs. At least one completely unheard song would have made a significant impact on excitement levels and thus sales.

He gets it. I think the justification from WB was because they thought they'd get more positive PR from it being a 1999-era song. But the problem with that is that it's only the core fanbase who care what era a song is from, and we've all heard Moonbeam a million times! I think it's fair to say that opinion was split on the 4ever release, when really, all the stops should have been pulled out to ensure it was something the entire fanbase could get behind, and that didn't happen.

It's absolutely imperative that they approach future projects with a knowledge of what's heavily bootlegged, what songs only a few people have, and what songs aren't circulating at all. But between the family wanting to make all the decisions themselves (and fighting with each other about it) and the labels engaging in typical major label bureaucracy, there's a very real chance that we might get disappointed with projects, and that Prince's legacy won't get handled properly.

The good news is that there are several key people fighting to make sure this doesn't happen - bandmembers, engineers, etc. Some of them are hitting brick walls because they don't have good relationships with family members, or with each other. But there is at least a handful of people that for the most part, everyone respects and gets on with. Hopefully they can make some groundwork but it's seriously a minefield right now.

TL:DR Anything and everything to do with Prince's Estate is pretty much a fucking nightmare right now for most people.

Thanks Militant for keeping update. I love reading your posts.

IMO, the problem wasn't with the choice of song, but the lack of promotion for it! I mean, where the hell was the music video??? With the right marketing and promotion, and a dope ass poignant video, the song could've been a hit! Poor planning is the blame for this.

Neversin said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

which is part of the reason i bet the version of "Electric Intercourse" we will get is the one that is circulating

The only versions that are "circulating" are rehearsals and the live versions... Why would the cleaned up fan release, done by T, of the First Avenue rehearsal be released when WBR has the First Avenue live version with studio dubs, which isn't on boots btw... Neversin.

Exactly. My god, people are stupid.

AnnaSantana said:

ladygirl99 said:

Thanks Militant for keeping update. I love reading your posts.

IMO, the problem wasn't with the choice of song, but the lack of promotion for it! I mean, where the hell was the music video??? With the right marketing and promotion, and a dope ass poignant video, the song could've been a hit! Poor planning is the blame for this.

These days, labels will release without that stuff and only bother investing time into promotion if the project is already selling reasonably well. It's easy and quick to put promotion plans and music videos together these days. If they don't invest in all that stuff upfront before the release, then it's easier to cut their losses a few weeks in if the sales aren't there. IMO, WB saw that fan reaction was pretty mixed and that a large portion of the fanbase wasn't getting behind it, and so they abandoned it.

Actually, it says it all how the biggst Prince-related promotion hasn't come from the labels, but from the tech companies. Twitter ran that billboard in major cities with the 4Ever cover on it, to denote Prince being one of the most talked about topics of the year, and then Spotify ran the huge purple adverts all over the world, too.

Tech companies are the new record labels, because they are the ones with all the capital.

Neversin said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

which is part of the reason i bet the version of "Electric Intercourse" we will get is the one that is circulating

The only versions that are "circulating" are rehearsals and the live versions... Why would the cleaned up fan release, done by T, of the First Avenue rehearsal be released when WBR has the First Avenue live version with studio dubs, which isn't on boots btw... Neversin.

Oh did T clean up the "wake up Wendy" rehearsal? I was thinking that was a copy of what Prince cleaned up for release. I do not think the First Ave performance (vocally) is all that great...that is the rehearsal sounds better to me.

I do recall reading the edited "wake up Wendy" version was fan made or assumed to be. I did not hear it was T! But then when a bootleg quality version of Moonbeam Levels was on 4Ever... I got to thinking they may have used the bootleg as a source and may do the same with EI.

Militant said

Actually, it says it all how the biggst Prince-related promotion hasn't come from the labels, but from the tech companies. Twitter ran that billboard in major cities with the 4Ever cover on it, to denote Prince being one of the most talked about topics of the year, and then Spotify ran the huge purple adverts all over the world, too.

Tech companies are the new record labels, because they are the ones with all the capital.

It's not quite as simple as that. All the majors and Merlin (an organisation representing indie labels) are paid huge annual amounts by streaming services, effectively ad revenue money - all of these are covered by non-disclosure agreements, are not mentioned in any artist contract and, as such, do not have to be shared with artists and usually aren't.

In fact, if you see an artist speaking out in favour of Spotify, you can bet they're getting a backhander. This informs one of my main theories why Prince was so anti-streaming - whilst he was certainly into protecting his music being streamed online without his authority being given (although he did seem clueless for a while about it being on Spotify in Europe for a few years), I'm sure he was more than aware of Warners' clandestine agreement with YouTube at al, and a big part of having the masters revert to him would mean that he could possibly deal with streaming services directly, and get this "advance" ad revenue money from them, instead of Warners getting it. My feeling is that he had probably approached them about this, but asked for too much.

All the majors also have equity in Spotify - in fact, Warner Music is the largest label equity holder in that particular streaming service.

So there's more than enough capital in the majors. You only have to go to your average major label office to see where the money is going. Of course, the big question is what will happen when ad revenue dries up...

I missed something -- how do we know it's fake?

dustoff said:

I missed something -- how do we know it's fake?

part of the issue is the typos l

OnlyNDaUsa said:

dustoff said:

I missed something -- how do we know it's fake?

part of the issue is the typos l

But it's a transcription of a screenshot the guy took.

Mind you, the screenshot itself would have been a lot more convincing.

AnnaSantana said:

ladygirl99 said:

Thanks Militant for keeping update. I love reading your posts.

IMO, the problem wasn't with the choice of song, but the lack of promotion for it! I mean, where the hell was the music video??? With the right marketing and promotion, and a dope ass poignant video, the song could've been a hit! Poor planning is the blame for this.

Music video?? For what? He's dead. Don't start those corny MJ videos after his death too...

4EVER was promoted, just as much as any major Prince release in the last 10 years... There was billboards all over the world in france, in london, in new york... There even was a commercial video montage for it.

4EVER is still on the TOP 50 in the U.S. and is selling pretty well, and steadily.

Three weeks ago it peaked at #32 the highest it was on the charts due to the Bruno Marts grammy performance.

eyewishuheaven said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

part of the issue is the typos l

But it's a transcription of a screenshot the guy took.

Mind you, the screenshot itself would have been a lot more convincing.

i did consider that... and i agree a screen cap would be better.

there was also the story about the WB people at the hotel not willing to confirm or deny the track list

Moonbeam said:

Militant said:

jjam said:

Militant, did you ask Londell why a considerably less than master source was used for Moonbeam Levels?

It was clear from the moment it was announced that there was no will, that it would be a few years before we really see Vault treasures being released. I guess we should consider ourselves lucky that the expanded Purple Rain release is coming out soon.

I didn't. But I suspect that he wouldn't have known. He's more involved in making the deals, and less hands-on with the creative aspect.

However - on that topic - when I met with Manuela, she confirmed that the Vault wasn't always looked after - despite the best efforts of her and others. She confirmed that, during her time with Prince, there were occasions where he'd ask someone to pull up some old songs from the Vault, and the master tapes would be damaged beyond repair. Which is fucking heartbreaking, but we had heard similar in the past from Hans and other engineers. I suspect that this may be the case with Moonbeam, given the age of it, plus the fact that we know Prince had pulled it up from the vault to consider it for release on at least one occasion that was years after it's recording (original Rave config in 88)

Militant wasn't Moonbeam being mentioned by Susan Rogers on that documentary on the Vault a couple of years ago before April 21,2016?

To me it was sounding like a hype promotion and that it was going to get a release before his death.

muleFunk said:

Militant said:

I didn't. But I suspect that he wouldn't have known. He's more involved in making the deals, and less hands-on with the creative aspect.

However - on that topic - when I met with Manuela, she confirmed that the Vault wasn't always looked after - despite the best efforts of her and others. She confirmed that, during her time with Prince, there were occasions where he'd ask someone to pull up some old songs from the Vault, and the master tapes would be damaged beyond repair. Which is fucking heartbreaking, but we had heard similar in the past from Hans and other engineers. I suspect that this may be the case with Moonbeam, given the age of it, plus the fact that we know Prince had pulled it up from the vault to consider it for release on at least one occasion that was years after it's recording (original Rave config in 88)

Militant wasn't Moonbeam being mentioned by Susan Rogers on that documentary on the Vault a couple of years ago before April 21,2016?

To me it was sounding like a hype promotion and that it was going to get a release before his death.

That's definitely not the case.

Susan had had nothing to do with Prince for many years before that documentary, and she's been semi-regularly talking about her time with him for years, and regularly brought up songs like Moonbeam Levels (and Wally too).

In fact, at one point following one of her talks, Prince had commented on it, saying "Susan Rogers knows nothing about my music".

There's no evidence that Prince had pulled Moonbeam Levels out of the vault in recent years. And given the conversation I had with Manuela recently plus the version of the track that ended up on 4Ever, I strongly suspect that the original tapes are damaged beyond repair. Even if Prince had thought about resurrecting the track, he likely would have re-recorded, as with Xtraloveable, In A Large Room With No Light, If I Could Get Your Attention, 1000 X's and O's.......

Militant said:

muleFunk said:

Militant wasn't Moonbeam being mentioned by Susan Rogers on that documentary on the Vault a couple of years ago before April 21,2016?

To me it was sounding like a hype promotion and that it was going to get a release before his death.

That's definitely not the case.

Susan had had nothing to do with Prince for many years before that documentary, and she's been semi-regularly talking about her time with him for years, and regularly brought up songs like Moonbeam Levels (and Wally too).

In fact, at one point following one of her talks, Prince had commented on it, saying "Susan Rogers knows nothing about my music".

There's no evidence that Prince had pulled Moonbeam Levels out of the vault in recent years. And given the conversation I had with Manuela recently plus the version of the track that ended up on 4Ever, I strongly suspect that the original tapes are damaged beyond repair. Even if Prince had thought about resurrecting the track, he likely would have re-recorded, as with Xtraloveable, In A Large Room With No Light, If I Could Get Your Attention, 1000 X's and O's.......

Excuse my ignorance but can you qualify what you mean by 'tapes damaged beyond repair'?

fortuneandserendipity said:

Excuse my ignorance but can you qualify what you mean by 'tapes damaged beyond repair'?

ladygirl99 said:

SoulAlive said:

I totally agree.I like "Moonbeam Levels" alot,but it's one of the most well-known unreleased songs and,let's face it,most of us had it already I think they should have dug deeper and put something really rare and surprising on 4Ever.And yeah,they should have added another previously unreleased song on the other disc.

Oh yes I agree. But I also thought 4Ever release was more targeting toward casual or new listeners than diehard fans? Because I feel if they wanted diehard fans to buy the album, the album would have quite a few lesser known tracks. I am now confuse if further releases are going to happen what audience are they trying to aim for?

I think because it was a hits compilation targeting casual fans it would have made more sense to include the studio version of Nothing Compares 2 U with Prince on vocals. Or something in that vein - Manic Monday, Jungle Love, etc.