Militant said:

Didn't Prince sing a short version of "Moonbeam Levels" at one of the Piano and Microphone concerts?

dance4me3121 said:

Militant said:

That's definitely not the case.

Susan had had nothing to do with Prince for many years before that documentary, and she's been semi-regularly talking about her time with him for years, and regularly brought up songs like Moonbeam Levels (and Wally too).

In fact, at one point following one of her talks, Prince had commented on it, saying "Susan Rogers knows nothing about my music".

There's no evidence that Prince had pulled Moonbeam Levels out of the vault in recent years. And given the conversation I had with Manuela recently plus the version of the track that ended up on 4Ever, I strongly suspect that the original tapes are damaged beyond repair. Even if Prince had thought about resurrecting the track, he likely would have re-recorded, as with Xtraloveable, In A Large Room With No Light, If I Could Get Your Attention, 1000 X's and O's.......

Didn't Prince sing a short version of "Moonbeam Levels" at one of the Piano and Microphone concerts?

There's a great website called PrinceVault that could help you.

http://www.princevault.com/index.php?title=Moonbeam_Levels

We need very soon the official tracklist ...stop the fake ones and useless talking!

love2thenines2003 said:

We need very soon the official tracklist ...

Stating the obvious... Quite useless...

stop the fake ones and useless talking!

See your quote above... What's your point??

Neversin.

love2thenines2003 said:

We need very soon the official tracklist ...stop the fake ones and useless talking!

Chill out Yoda

Neversin said:

U'r often in the know for uncirculating things and others...what's ur point of view....this might be useful 4 the community ! THANX in advance!
[Edited 3/13/17 3:19am]

So not only is the estate in utter chaos, but the majority of the earlier vault recordings are also likely damaged beyond repair?

Very sad indeed.

More recent material is probably safe and while this greatly interests me as a fan, I appreciate that it may have somewhat limited commercial appeal. Again, I think a premium service for hardcore fans will have to be established to monetise later and more obscure work.

OperatingThetan said:

So not only is the estate in utter chaos, but the majority of the earlier vault recordings are also likely damaged beyond repair? Very sad indeed. More recent material is probably safe and while this greatly interests me as a fan, I appreciate that it may have somewhat limited commercial appeal. Again, I think a premium service for hardcore fans will have to be established to monetise later and more obscure work.

I think that's pure conjecture.

Has there been any mention of it anywhere other than fan sites?

love2thenines2003 said:

Neversin said:

See your quote above... What's your point??

Neversin.

U'r often in the know for uncirculating things and others...what's ur point of view....this might be useful 4 the community ! THANX in advance! [Edited 3/13/17 3:19am]

I don't see how my point of view is useful for anyone who is not in my position to see my point of view...
I can tell you this though (without details, so don't ask) about a fan proposed anniversary release going back to 1994, continued in 2004 and a last effort in 2014 to (I think) no avail.
A proposal towards Prince (or ) and WBR was done. Done by a collection of fans who stuck their heads together and made a list of things we would like to see...
In 1994 a 10 disc version of "Purple Rain" was compiled (on paper) by a select group of fans and sent to Paisley Park and WB with a note of what we would like to see released; no comment from both camps.
In 2004 this set expanded to 19 discs and was even compiled and sent as CDr's as a proposed companion to the 20th anniversary DVD release of the movie, but again no comment from WBR, Prince however made a snide comment regarding his (fantasy?) 30th anniversary set which contained outtakes not on the fan set...
In 2014 an outlandish 30 disc definitive fan set was compiled consisting of CD's and DVD's but alas, no comment from WBR nor Prince... By this time WBR had already been compiling their (mini, as in 3 disc mini) deluxe/anniversary set (without direct input from fans) and Prince supposedly already had a set finished and ready for release WITH outtakes... (unknown how many discs or if DVD's were included...)
If Prince ever submitted his set to WBR is unknown since WBR claimed never to have seen anything from Prince regarding an anniversary set...

Therefore my point of view of this upcoming set is one of huge dissapointment, mainly because WBR has no clue of nor cares what fans want or their hands are tied and they have to make due with what they can (I think it's a mix of both...)
WBR said the set will be nothing more that the album and extra 4 discs containing outtakes (or 2 albums worth of) and live movies; so probably remixes and b-sides and a teeny tiny sample of his most succesful year... Slightly more than a vanilla deluxe release, but still vanilla enough...
At the time the fan compilation was an ultra super deluxe pipe dream that no company would touch... Nowadays though and especially now Prince isn't around anymore, who wouldn't be up for a 30 disc CD/DVD set? But again this is probably up to the estate who are is such a shitshow now that the fans will have to make due with whatever WBR tries to feed...

Neversin.

Neversin said:

30 discs! That would be amazing indeed, although obviously a pipe dream given the current state of affairs.

Perhaps I am out of bounds for asking this, but were any such collaborative fan tracklists assembled for other albums, if not sent to WB and Prince?

Neversin said:

At the time the fan compilation was an ultra super deluxe pipe dream that no company would touch... Nowadays though and especially now Prince isn't around anymore, who wouldn't be up for a 30 disc CD/DVD set? But again this is probably up to the estate who are is such a shitshow now that the fans will have to make due with whatever WBR tries to feed...

30 discs would be incredible. I mean, there's a recent 29-disc set of Golden Earring, so obviously these things can be done even when the sales will be smaller (with all due respect to that long-lived band). But yeah, there are too many legal issues and too many parties involved for something like that to happen with Prince right now.

Still hoping for the best.

dance4me3121 said:

Militant said:

That's definitely not the case.

Susan had had nothing to do with Prince for many years before that documentary, and she's been semi-regularly talking about her time with him for years, and regularly brought up songs like Moonbeam Levels (and Wally too).

In fact, at one point following one of her talks, Prince had commented on it, saying "Susan Rogers knows nothing about my music".

There's no evidence that Prince had pulled Moonbeam Levels out of the vault in recent years. And given the conversation I had with Manuela recently plus the version of the track that ended up on 4Ever, I strongly suspect that the original tapes are damaged beyond repair. Even if Prince had thought about resurrecting the track, he likely would have re-recorded, as with Xtraloveable, In A Large Room With No Light, If I Could Get Your Attention, 1000 X's and O's.......

Didn't Prince sing a short version of "Moonbeam Levels" at one of the Piano and Microphone concerts?

No, I don't think so. I think you're thinking of a show in 2013.

Regardless, that in and of itself isn't strong enough evidence of anything. I saw him sing "1000 X's and O's" at the O2 in 2007. That's 15 years after he recorded and another 8 years before he finally released on HNR1. There's other examples of songs that would just show up at random times - "Purple Music" at an aftershow in recent years springs to mind.

Now - when I was at the first Birmingham show in 2014, he sang "Electric Intercourse" for the first time since 1983. And it would turn out to be the only time. The interesting thing here was the timing - this was less than one month after the announcement that he was re-signing to WB and they would be doing Purple Rain Deluxe. So those two things together meant it seemed fairly likely the track would end up the PR Deluxe.

RicoN said:

OperatingThetan said:

So not only is the estate in utter chaos, but the majority of the earlier vault recordings are also likely damaged beyond repair? Very sad indeed. More recent material is probably safe and while this greatly interests me as a fan, I appreciate that it may have somewhat limited commercial appeal. Again, I think a premium service for hardcore fans will have to be established to monetise later and more obscure work.

I think that's pure conjecture.

Has there been any mention of it anywhere other than fan sites?

Hans Martin-Buff talked about it years ago.

Manuela told me this herself when I had lunch with her last month.

The climate-control system in the vault broke years ago - it didn't get fixed for a long time, if ever. Think about the extreme weather conditions in Minnesota and it's hardly a stretch. Old tape reels are at risk of degradation even in perfect condition. That's why Hans mentioned that they needed to be baked to be preserved.

Hans also said that one of the first tasks he did when he was hired, was to mix down copies of all the tapes to send to the lawyers to have them copyrighted. So while there's copies of the earlier work, it's the multi-track reels that are damaged, which will mean there's only so much that can be done to remaster them. This is almost definitely why the copy of "Moonbeam Levels" on 4Ever is barely better than the bootleg.

bluegangsta said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

Excuse my ignorance but can you qualify what you mean by 'tapes damaged beyond repair'?

the one thing i wonder about is that if M2 mentioned the damage to some of the tapes,
in i guess a period spanning her time with prince and the npgmc so 2001-2004(?) how
does that relate to prince compiling "roadhouse garden" in 1998/1999 and the release
of "crystal ball" in 1998, both of which consists of outtakes.

ok. crystal ball only had 1 very old track, "cloreen". but "cloreen" does date back to the
time of around "moonbeam levels".

"roadhouse garden" would have at the very least had the song of the same title on it,
which was recorded only a few years after "moonbeam levels".

so how do we go from "cloreen" being on crystal ball in very good quality, to tapes of
that era being damaged or deteriorated beyond repair?

*

another thing i wonder about is how far 'roadhouse garden' was completed (in 1999),
and if prince actually had the songs pulled up from the vault or just compiled the set
on paper.

a reason for it falling through might be that some of the intended tracks were way too
damaged?

so not just wendy and lisa being 'non responsive individuals'

*

the tracks people could chose from during the celebration, for inclusion on crystal ball
part 2. those were much more inclusive of all his eras compared to crystal ball part 1,
ranging back to at least "moonbeam levels" with song choices such as "if it'll make you
happy".

by now, through the compiling of 'roadhouse garden '99' and 'crystal ball '98' he must
have been aware of problem with certain tapes, and likely some entire songs being
damaged beyond repair, if that was indeed the case.

yet a lot of tracks were offered for selection on "crystal ball part 2". how? someone
must have gone through the vault to at least pull up those tracks, right?

so that means that a lot of stuff is still in pretty ok shape. or well, it was at that time.

i've read about water damage in the vault and other problems, so perhaps tapes that
are deteriorated aren't strictly just going to be the oldest ones but the ones that
happened to get damaged or weren't stored right in the first place?

*

anyway. if tape deterioration would have come to prince's attention at that time, when
assembling/compiling outtake sets or pulling up random songs ('splash' for instance),
was still very much on his mind (as a possible thing to do at the very least), when did
he decide to just let things be as they were an not try to start saving things?

i've read about this before from people, the whole 'baking tapes' and such but i'm not
sure prince ever had anybody do any work like that at all. other people here who know
more about this can perhaps answer that question for the umpteenth time for me, as
i keep forgetting

some stuff was also catalogued and digitised post 2004, iirc. no?

*

it's an interesting topic regardless. like why he released newly recorded version of a few
vault tracks post npgmc. might not have been entirely due to him wanting to update or
'finish' them, but rather due to some of the multitapes being beyond repair etc.

which might be why he wanted/needed the help of w&l for roadhouse garden etc, when
he could have easily pulled most of those completed tracks from the vault, as is.

*

last thing, if most of the vault was left as it was and only a certain percentage of it was
ever digitized/baked/salvaged/catalogued/whatever, back in the early/mid 2000s, then
another 10+ years of the stuff just sitting there can't have done it much good.

Militant said:

Hans Martin-Buff talked about it years ago.

Manuela told me this herself when I had lunch with her last month.

The climate-control system in the vault broke years ago - it didn't get fixed for a long time, if ever. Think about the extreme weather conditions in Minnesota and it's hardly a stretch. Old tape reels are at risk of degradation even in perfect condition. That's why Hans mentioned that they needed to be baked to be preserved.

Hans also said that one of the first tasks he did when he was hired, was to mix down copies of all the tapes to send to the lawyers to have them copyrighted. So while there's copies of the earlier work, it's the multi-track reels that are damaged, which will mean there's only so much that can be done to remaster them. This is almost definitely why the copy of "Moonbeam Levels" on 4Ever is barely better than the bootleg.

ah, you already answered my question before i even asked it, i just didn't see it yet

IstenSzek said:

If all the tapes were copyrighted,does that mean that all the titles recorded are already part of the public record? So no surprises?

Militant said:

Hans also said that one of the first tasks he did when he was hired, was to mix down copies of all the tapes to send to the lawyers to have them copyrighted. So while there's copies of the earlier work, it's the multi-track reels that are damaged, which will mean there's only so much that can be done to remaster them. This is almost definitely why the copy of "Moonbeam Levels" on 4Ever is barely better than the bootleg.

But multitrack tapes aren't used for remastering! The mixdown source would be used...

I also heard that the multis for all his albums were digitally transferred around the early 2000s, so they must have been in decent enough condition for this to be done, or at least baked in order to be fit for purpose.

And the copy of "Moonbeam Levels" on 4Ever is the same source as was used on Blast From The Past 2.0, which is definitely not first generation. There has to be a proper mixdown copy of this somewhere in the vault, particularly as Prince considered it for inclusion on the unreleased "Rave Unto The Joy Fantastic" album from the late 80s.

IstenSzek said:

the one thing i wonder about is that if M2 mentioned the damage to some of the tapes,
in i guess a period spanning her time with prince and the npgmc so 2001-2004(?) how
does that relate to prince compiling "roadhouse garden" in 1998/1999 and the release
of "crystal ball" in 1998, both of which consists of outtakes.

QUOTE IS TOO LONG....

Crystal Ball was released 20 years ago.

Most studio tapes have 20(ish) years in them at best, before they have to be treated. Most don't make it past 30 and have to be backed up on another format.

You do the math.

jjam said:

Militant said:

But multitrack tapes aren't used for remastering! The mixdown source would be used...

I also heard that the multis for all his albums were digitally transferred around the early 2000s, so they must have been in decent enough condition for this to be done, or at least baked in order to be fit for purpose.

And the copy of "Moonbeam Levels" on 4Ever is the same source as was used on Blast From The Past 2.0, which is definitely not first generation. There has to be a proper mixdown copy of this somewhere in the vault, particularly as Prince considered it for inclusion on the unreleased "Rave Unto The Joy Fantastic" album from the late 80s.

Strictly speaking, sure. That's the dictionary definition. But Prince's stuff needs more than just a standard remaster......

What we really need is the songs to be mixed again from the original multi-tracks, ideally by the engineers who recorded them in the first place like Susan Rogers.

If the original mixdown wasn't great in the first place - and especially with unreleased songs, most would have only had a basic mix done in the first place, then you need the multitracks.

So we're talking about a remix, then...

I disagree re the albums being mixed again. For somebody like Prince who was so involved in every part of the creative process, it would be akin to someone tinkering with the Mona Lisa, maybe changing the hue here and there. Part of what makes those classic albums of his so great is the rough'n'ready aural quality of many of them. And, ultimately, I'd say the perceived issues will be more to do with the tracking/engineering rather than mixing - and there's nothing that can be done about that.

Neversin said:

love2thenines2003 said:

Neversin said: U'r often in the know for uncirculating things and others...what's ur point of view....this might be useful 4 the community ! THANX in advance! [Edited 3/13/17 3:19am]

I don't see how my point of view is useful for anyone who is not in my position to see my point of view...
I can tell you this though (without details, so don't ask) about a fan proposed anniversary release going back to 1994, continued in 2004 and a last effort in 2014 to (I think) no avail.
A proposal towards Prince (or ) and WBR was done. Done by a collection of fans who stuck their heads together and made a list of things we would like to see...
In 1994 a 10 disc version of "Purple Rain" was compiled (on paper) by a select group of fans and sent to Paisley Park and WB with a note of what we would like to see released; no comment from both camps.
In 2004 this set expanded to 19 discs and was even compiled and sent as CDr's as a proposed companion to the 20th anniversary DVD release of the movie, but again no comment from WBR, Prince however made a snide comment regarding his (fantasy?) 30th anniversary set which contained outtakes not on the fan set...
In 2014 an outlandish 30 disc definitive fan set was compiled consisting of CD's and DVD's but alas, no comment from WBR nor Prince... By this time WBR had already been compiling their (mini, as in 3 disc mini) deluxe/anniversary set (without direct input from fans) and Prince supposedly already had a set finished and ready for release WITH outtakes... (unknown how many discs or if DVD's were included...)
If Prince ever submitted his set to WBR is unknown since WBR claimed never to have seen anything from Prince regarding an anniversary set...

Therefore my point of view of this upcoming set is one of huge dissapointment, mainly because WBR has no clue of nor cares what fans want or their hands are tied and they have to make due with what they can (I think it's a mix of both...)
WBR said the set will be nothing more that the album and extra 4 discs containing outtakes (or 2 albums worth of) and live movies; so probably remixes and b-sides and a teeny tiny sample of his most succesful year... Slightly more than a vanilla deluxe release, but still vanilla enough...
At the time the fan compilation was an ultra super deluxe pipe dream that no company would touch... Nowadays though and especially now Prince isn't around anymore, who wouldn't be up for a 30 disc CD/DVD set? But again this is probably up to the estate who are is such a shitshow now that the fans will have to make due with whatever WBR tries to feed...

Neversin.

Over the years I've heard rumours of this from some hardcore collectors who told me about this project, but you were one of these select fans who compiled these sets??

I heard the same group also did a similar thing for Parade and Sign O the Times, do you know anything about that?

Militant said:

dance4me3121 said:

Militant said:

I think that's pure conjecture.

Has there been any mention of it anywhere other than fan sites?

Hans Martin-Buff talked about it years ago.

Manuela told me this herself when I had lunch with her last month.

The climate-control system in the vault broke years ago - it didn't get fixed for a long time, if ever. Think about the extreme weather conditions in Minnesota and it's hardly a stretch. Old tape reels are at risk of degradation even in perfect condition. That's why Hans mentioned that they needed to be baked to be preserved.

Hans also said that one of the first tasks he did when he was hired, was to mix down copies of all the tapes to send to the lawyers to have them copyrighted. So while there's copies of the earlier work, it's the multi-track reels that are damaged, which will mean there's only so much that can be done to remaster them. This is almost definitely why the copy of "Moonbeam Levels" on 4Ever is barely better than the bootleg.

Thanks militant.

Neversin said:

Neversin said:

At the time the fan compilation was an ultra super deluxe pipe dream that no company would touch... Nowadays though and especially now Prince isn't around anymore, who wouldn't be up for a 30 disc CD/DVD set? But again this is probably up to the estate who are is such a shitshow now that the fans will have to make due with whatever WBR tries to feed...

I'd totally be up for it, even if it cost £600. WB could name their price with this one...

Let's face it, Prince having no will has made everything as messy as feck, and I'm sure it's a total logistic nightmare for all parties concerned.

Neversin said:

Ur reply has been appreciated. ..thank a lot 4 Ur attention!

Moonbeam said:

30 discs! That would be amazing indeed, although obviously a pipe dream given the current state of affairs. Perhaps I am out of bounds for asking this, but were any such collaborative fan tracklists assembled for other albums, if not sent to WB and Prince?

Yes, there was a huge set compiled (on paper) for the post "Purple Rain" Revolution era... From "All Day All Night" to "Crucial", AFAIK none of us compiled it or sent it towards Paisley Park or WBR simply because it was rather absurd...

Neversin.

Moonbeam Levels to me sounds similar in quality to Another Lonely Christmas - both a bit rough sounding, but not at all unpleasant. If you think the audio quality of these are bad you need to listen to early Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington records! That's proper messed up quality and not just bc they're mono. But people still rave about the music.

P said in interview May '85 he had recorded 320 unreleased songs. So they have to be the priority.

JorisE73 said:

Neversin said:

I don't see how my point of view is useful for anyone who is not in my position to see my point of view...
I can tell you this though (without details, so don't ask) about a fan proposed anniversary release going back to 1994, continued in 2004 and a last effort in 2014 to (I think) no avail.
A proposal towards Prince (or ) and WBR was done. Done by a collection of fans who stuck their heads together and made a list of things we would like to see...
In 1994 a 10 disc version of "Purple Rain" was compiled (on paper) by a select group of fans and sent to Paisley Park and WB with a note of what we would like to see released; no comment from both camps.
In 2004 this set expanded to 19 discs and was even compiled and sent as CDr's as a proposed companion to the 20th anniversary DVD release of the movie, but again no comment from WBR, Prince however made a snide comment regarding his (fantasy?) 30th anniversary set which contained outtakes not on the fan set...
In 2014 an outlandish 30 disc definitive fan set was compiled consisting of CD's and DVD's but alas, no comment from WBR nor Prince... By this time WBR had already been compiling their (mini, as in 3 disc mini) deluxe/anniversary set (without direct input from fans) and Prince supposedly already had a set finished and ready for release WITH outtakes... (unknown how many discs or if DVD's were included...)
If Prince ever submitted his set to WBR is unknown since WBR claimed never to have seen anything from Prince regarding an anniversary set...

Therefore my point of view of this upcoming set is one of huge dissapointment, mainly because WBR has no clue of nor cares what fans want or their hands are tied and they have to make due with what they can (I think it's a mix of both...)
WBR said the set will be nothing more that the album and extra 4 discs containing outtakes (or 2 albums worth of) and live movies; so probably remixes and b-sides and a teeny tiny sample of his most succesful year... Slightly more than a vanilla deluxe release, but still vanilla enough...
At the time the fan compilation was an ultra super deluxe pipe dream that no company would touch... Nowadays though and especially now Prince isn't around anymore, who wouldn't be up for a 30 disc CD/DVD set? But again this is probably up to the estate who are is such a shitshow now that the fans will have to make due with whatever WBR tries to feed...

Neversin.

Over the years I've heard rumours of this from some hardcore collectors who told me about this project, but you were one of these select fans who compiled these sets??

I heard the same group also did a similar thing for Parade and Sign O the Times, do you know anything about that?

Not exactly... There was a Revolution era compilation which had "Parade" and SOTT, but not specific for the albums like "Purple Rain"... Especially because it took way too much time and nobody responded to it...

Neversin.

Neversin said:

JorisE73 said:

Over the years I've heard rumours of this from some hardcore collectors who told me about this project, but you were one of these select fans who compiled these sets??

I heard the same group also did a similar thing for Parade and Sign O the Times, do you know anything about that?

Not exactly... There was a Revolution era compilation which had "Parade" and SOTT, but not specific for the albums like "Purple Rain"... Especially because it took way too much time and nobody responded to it...

Neversin.

That sounds awesome, thanks for the info!

Jimmy Page consulted with fans for the Led Zeppelin sets so how great would it be if WB would do that too?

[Edited 3/13/17 10:29am]

jjam said:

So we're talking about a remix, then...

I disagree re the albums being mixed again. For somebody like Prince who was so involved in every part of the creative process, it would be akin to someone tinkering with the Mona Lisa, maybe changing the hue here and there. Part of what makes those classic albums of his so great is the rough'n'ready aural quality of many of them. And, ultimately, I'd say the perceived issues will be more to do with the tracking/engineering rather than mixing - and there's nothing that can be done about that.

But getting new mixes done doesn't stop the original ones from existing.

Have you heard Steve Albini's mixes of Nirvana's "In Utero" on the 20th anniversary set?

Disc 1 is the original mixes from 1993, remastered 20 years later.

Disc 2 is Albini's brand new 2013 mixes. Both are essential, IMO. "In Utero" is one of my favorite albums, I grew up listening to it, and the new mixes are simply a joy to listen to. Sometimes I feel like listening to the originals, sometimes I feel like listening to the new mixes. But it's truly a joy to have both. Hell, I have the unmixed demos from the DAT tape of the first week of recording sessions, sometimes I listen to those. It's just great to have all the options.

I know what you mean about the rough n ready aural quality of Prince's catalog, but for me it comes down to the song. Some songs I'm good with. Some are crying out for a better mix, IMHO.

And aside from that, some of the unreleased songs were barely mixed at all. The songs at least deserve the courtesy of a proper mix, they could be overseen by Susan or people who were around at the time or played on the tracks like Wendy and Lisa....

Yeah, they're cool mixes, the 2013 ones.

I just feel that it's tinkering with Prince's vision. If anyone was to do a new mix of an album, it would be him. But, sadly, that's not going to happen...