paulludvig said:

WB should group the material in "officially available", "widely cirulating", "rare, but circulating", "not cirulating". The last category is the most interesting.

the words in the original 2014 announcement was "Unheard"

there was some debate over that as to what that meant. I think the consensus was that whether or not they are aware of what is or is not circulating the meant "unreleased" and even still could mean "unreleased in this form." So something that was released like "Possessed" would be considered "unheard."

OnlyNDaUsa said:

ladygirl99 said:

paulludvig said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

the words in the original 2014 announcement was "Unheard"

there was some debate over that as to what that meant. I think the consensus was that whether or not they are aware of what is or is not circulating the meant "unreleased" and even still could mean "unreleased in this form." So something that was released like "Possessed" would be considered "unheard."

Exactly. Does WB actually know,or care,how informed Prince's fan base is?

they ought to... Led Zeppelin went to the big collectors and got their input on a set of live recordings they released not too long ago...

one thing WB needs to get it that multi-disc sets are fine but the average prince fan may not want to shell out much more than what a single disc would cost and some fans may not want to may big bucks for songs or shows they already have. (which is why i think there will be at least 3 forms of the remaster--single CD, one normal packaging (maybe just 2 or 3 cds), one with all 5 and fancy packaging. )

I would love for the track listing to be correct. I am a bit sceptical about the inclusion of Sheila E's set on a Prince box set dvd, I would LOVE for that to be true but I'm trying not to get my hopes up...

2freaky4church1 said:

I discussed this with Londell at our meeting last month.

I told him straight up that, from a fan perspective, "Moonbeam Levels" was perhaps the least interesting choice to include on "4Ever" because it's one of the most heavily bootlegged songs. At least one completely unheard song would have made a significant impact on excitement levels and thus sales.

He gets it. I think the justification from WB was because they thought they'd get more positive PR from it being a 1999-era song. But the problem with that is that it's only the core fanbase who care what era a song is from, and we've all heard Moonbeam a million times! I think it's fair to say that opinion was split on the 4ever release, when really, all the stops should have been pulled out to ensure it was something the entire fanbase could get behind, and that didn't happen.

It's absolutely imperative that they approach future projects with a knowledge of what's heavily bootlegged, what songs only a few people have, and what songs aren't circulating at all. But between the family wanting to make all the decisions themselves (and fighting with each other about it) and the labels engaging in typical major label bureaucracy, there's a very real chance that we might get disappointed with projects, and that Prince's legacy won't get handled properly.

The good news is that there are several key people fighting to make sure this doesn't happen - bandmembers, engineers, etc. Some of them are hitting brick walls because they don't have good relationships with family members, or with each other. But there is at least a handful of people that for the most part, everyone respects and gets on with. Hopefully they can make some groundwork but it's seriously a minefield right now.

TL:DR Anything and everything to do with Prince's Estate is pretty much a fucking nightmare right now for most people.

Militant said:

I discussed this with Londell at our meeting last month.

I told him straight up that, from a fan perspective, "Moonbeam Levels" was perhaps the least interesting choice to include on "4Ever" because it's one of the most heavily bootlegged songs. At least one completely unheard song would have made a significant impact on excitement levels and thus sales.

He gets it. I think the justification from WB was because they thought they'd get more positive PR from it being a 1999-era song. But the problem with that is that it's only the core fanbase who care what era a song is from, and we've all heard Moonbeam a million times! I think it's fair to say that opinion was split on the 4ever release, when really, all the stops should have been pulled out to ensure it was something the entire fanbase could get behind, and that didn't happen.

It's absolutely imperative that they approach future projects with a knowledge of what's heavily bootlegged, what songs only a few people have, and what songs aren't circulating at all. But between the family wanting to make all the decisions themselves (and fighting with each other about it) and the labels engaging in typical major label bureaucracy, there's a very real chance that we might get disappointed with projects, and that Prince's legacy won't get handled properly.

The good news is that there are several key people fighting to make sure this doesn't happen - bandmembers, engineers, etc. Some of them are hitting brick walls because they don't have good relationships with family members, or with each other. But there is at least a handful of people that for the most part, everyone respects and gets on with. Hopefully they can make some groundwork but it's seriously a minefield right now.

TL:DR Anything and everything to do with Prince's Estate is pretty much a fucking nightmare right now for most people.

That is COMPLETELY depressing. Except for PR Deluxe, it could be years before we fans get to hear new music.

Militant said:

I discussed this with Londell at our meeting last month.

I told him straight up that, from a fan perspective, "Moonbeam Levels" was perhaps the least interesting choice to include on "4Ever" because it's one of the most heavily bootlegged songs. At least one completely unheard song would have made a significant impact on excitement levels and thus sales.

He gets it. I think the justification from WB was because they thought they'd get more positive PR from it being a 1999-era song. But the problem with that is that it's only the core fanbase who care what era a song is from, and we've all heard Moonbeam a million times! I think it's fair to say that opinion was split on the 4ever release, when really, all the stops should have been pulled out to ensure it was something the entire fanbase could get behind, and that didn't happen.

It's absolutely imperative that they approach future projects with a knowledge of what's heavily bootlegged, what songs only a few people have, and what songs aren't circulating at all. But between the family wanting to make all the decisions themselves (and fighting with each other about it) and the labels engaging in typical major label bureaucracy, there's a very real chance that we might get disappointed with projects, and that Prince's legacy won't get handled properly.

The good news is that there are several key people fighting to make sure this doesn't happen - bandmembers, engineers, etc. Some of them are hitting brick walls because they don't have good relationships with family members, or with each other. But there is at least a handful of people that for the most part, everyone respects and gets on with. Hopefully they can make some groundwork but it's seriously a minefield right now.

TL:DR Anything and everything to do with Prince's Estate is pretty much a fucking nightmare right now for most people.

Thanks for the update.

Let's hope they realize that the fans are the key to maximizing profit and cater to us.

Militant, did you ask Londell why a considerably less than master source was used for Moonbeam Levels?

It was clear from the moment it was announced that there was no will, that it would be a few years before we really see Vault treasures being released. I guess we should consider ourselves lucky that the expanded Purple Rain release is coming out soon.

Militant said:

I discussed this with Londell at our meeting last month.

I told him straight up that, from a fan perspective, "Moonbeam Levels" was perhaps the least interesting choice to include on "4Ever" because it's one of the most heavily bootlegged songs. At least one completely unheard song would have made a significant impact on excitement levels and thus sales.

He gets it. I think the justification from WB was because they thought they'd get more positive PR from it being a 1999-era song. But the problem with that is that it's only the core fanbase who care what era a song is from, and we've all heard Moonbeam a million times! I think it's fair to say that opinion was split on the 4ever release, when really, all the stops should have been pulled out to ensure it was something the entire fanbase could get behind, and that didn't happen.

It's absolutely imperative that they approach future projects with a knowledge of what's heavily bootlegged, what songs only a few people have, and what songs aren't circulating at all. But between the family wanting to make all the decisions themselves (and fighting with each other about it) and the labels engaging in typical major label bureaucracy, there's a very real chance that we might get disappointed with projects, and that Prince's legacy won't get handled properly.

The good news is that there are several key people fighting to make sure this doesn't happen - bandmembers, engineers, etc. Some of them are hitting brick walls because they don't have good relationships with family members, or with each other. But there is at least a handful of people that for the most part, everyone respects and gets on with. Hopefully they can make some groundwork but it's seriously a minefield right now.

TL:DR Anything and everything to do with Prince's Estate is pretty much a fucking nightmare right now for most people.

Apart from Laura Richardson

bluegangsta said:

Rebeljuice said:

He said he was aware of this particular thread and the tracklisting and whilst he did not confirm or deny how accurate it is (or isnt) specifically, he did say that there are discrepancies with what is on here and with what will be released (as far as he has heard). The only tidbit he offered me was that some fans whose suggestions and wishes he has seen on this thread will be very happy indeed.

If tht's the case, I would like to make them aware of my dream tracklist...

Disc 1: Uncut Album

1. Let's Go Crazy (12" Version)
2. Take Me With U (with extended coda)
3. The Beautiful Ones (with additional verse)
4. Computer Blue (full "Hallway" version)
5. Darling Nikki (with longer instrumental)
6. When Doves Cry
7. Purple Rain (with extra version and solo)
8. I Would Die 4 U (with extra instrumental section)
9. Baby I'm A Star (with longer intro)
10. Erotic City (12" Version)
11. 17 Days
12. Another Lonely Christmas (12" Version)
13. God

Disc 2: Outtakes and unreleased

1. Wednesday
2. Father's Song
3. Possessed
4. Cold Cocaine And Coffee
5. Katrina's Paper Dolls
6. Electric Intercourse
7. Love and Sex
8. Traffic Jam
9. Wonderful Ass
10. Money

Disc 3: Alternates

1. Computer Blue (St Louis Park version)
2. When Doves Cry (with bass)
3. Baby I'm A Star (early version)
4. Let's Go Crazy (First Avenue version)
5. Computer Blue (First Avenue version)
6. 17 Days (Unreleased 12" version)
7. God (Love Theme from Purple Rain)
8. I Would Die 4 U (Unedited 12" version)

Disc 4:
- Purple Rain Tour Capital Centre (11/20/84)
- Sheila E's opening performance

Disc 5:
- First Avenue 1983
- Music videos - When Doves Cry/ Let's Go Crazy (Promo extended edit)/ Purple Rain/ Take Me With U (Live in Houston)

This looks as a great release

jjam said:

Militant, did you ask Londell why a considerably less than master source was used for Moonbeam Levels?

It was clear from the moment it was announced that there was no will, that it would be a few years before we really see Vault treasures being released. I guess we should consider ourselves lucky that the expanded Purple Rain release is coming out soon.

I didn't. But I suspect that he wouldn't have known. He's more involved in making the deals, and less hands-on with the creative aspect.

However - on that topic - when I met with Manuela, she confirmed that the Vault wasn't always looked after - despite the best efforts of her and others. She confirmed that, during her time with Prince, there were occasions where he'd ask someone to pull up some old songs from the Vault, and the master tapes would be damaged beyond repair. Which is fucking heartbreaking, but we had heard similar in the past from Hans and other engineers. I suspect that this may be the case with Moonbeam, given the age of it, plus the fact that we know Prince had pulled it up from the vault to consider it for release on at least one occasion that was years after it's recording (original Rave config in 88)

214 said:

SomeSoldier said:

214 said:

This looks as a great release

Disc one is a crime.

Why

SomeSoldier said:

214 said:

This looks as a great release

Disc one is a crime.

Disc 2 is a passion.

Disc 3 is a rapture.

bluegangsta said:

SomeSoldier said:

214 said: Disc one is a crime.

Disc 2 is a passion.

Disc 3 is a rapture.

feeluupp said:

bluegangsta said:

SomeSoldier said:

214 said: Disc one is a crime.

Disc 2 is a passion.

Disc 3 is a rapture.

Disc 4 is Sex

Disc 5 When 2 R in Love

bluegangsta said:

SomeSoldier said:

214 said: Disc one is a crime.

Disc 2 is a passion.

Disc 3 is a rapture.

Neversin said:

Even though WBR and Susan Rogers say they will do their best and take their time with it to get it right, the upcoming release just will not suffice to hardcore collectors or archivers ...
WBR can only release what they have themselves (on conditions) or were given for release by Prince...
WBR has a shit ton of unreleased audio and video material but only they and Prince's estate know what Prince's deal was with them about those recordings and if those reverted back to Prince a couple of years ago or not...
For all we know Prince's estate could be the only ones who have the right to give the go ahead for a definitive 20 disc "Purple Rain" boxset (without any live material, which should be released separately) but since it's amateur hour over there and the fucking vultures are moving in for cash grabs, don't expect anything worthwhile from them other than Tamboraccas, shitty replica guitars and other amateur merchandise no self respecting Prince fan would want from an artist who was about the MUSIC...
Once they get their shit straight (which will probably take a decade or two) and hook up a with a company that specializes in archival releases (WBR has a shit record in those so another concern regarding this release) and gauge fan expectations and research the bootleg markets (like Zappa did) than it will get interesting...
For now just enjoy the half assed release you're getting and wait until a real respectful (of Prince AND his Fans) release gets compiled...

Or maybe gets released for free as a bootleg addendum...

Neversin.

[Edited 3/9/17 9:54am]

A long time ago you said that WB only has compilation tapes of songs Prince gave them and Prince owned the master tapes that have been rotting in his vault ever since they were recorded. So that means WB is compiling releases from old tapes Prince gave them that WB have preserved or Prince gave them fresh copies and/or maybe even re-recorded versions of unreleased songs? If we have to wait for 20 years on his estate than nothing will be left to release given the state of his master tapes. evrything around this release depresses me more and more

paulludvig said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

the words in the original 2014 announcement was "Unheard"

there was some debate over that as to what that meant. I think the consensus was that whether or not they are aware of what is or is not circulating the meant "unreleased" and even still could mean "unreleased in this form." So something that was released like "Possessed" would be considered "unheard."

Exactly. Does WB actually know,or care,how informed Prince's fan base is?

Precisely, unheard to who? I wouldn't believe WB was looking around for those elite collectors or looking around here for information on what people want released.

JorisE73 said:

A long time ago you said that WB only has compilation tapes of songs Prince gave them and Prince owned the master tapes that have been rotting in his vault ever since they were recorded.

This is common knowledge... See the "Moonbeam Levels" release on "4Ever"...

So that means WB is compiling releases from old tapes Prince gave them that WB have preserved or Prince gave them fresh copies and/or maybe even re-recorded versions of unreleased songs? If we have to wait for 20 years on his estate than nothing will be left to release given the state of his master tapes. evrything around this release depresses me more and more

Those WBR tapes (and the copies of those that some archivers have) are probably the only way Prince fans will get to hear some songs that have deteriorated in his vault.

Neversin.

Neversin said:

JorisE73 said:

A long time ago you said that WB only has compilation tapes of songs Prince gave them and Prince owned the master tapes that have been rotting in his vault ever since they were recorded.

This is common knowledge... See the "Moonbeam Levels" release on "4Ever"...

So that means WB is compiling releases from old tapes Prince gave them that WB have preserved or Prince gave them fresh copies and/or maybe even re-recorded versions of unreleased songs? If we have to wait for 20 years on his estate than nothing will be left to release given the state of his master tapes. evrything around this release depresses me more and more

Those WBR tapes (and the copies of those that some archivers have) are probably the only way Prince fans will get to hear some songs that have deteriorated in his vault.

Neversin.

I hope a lot of his more willing to cooperate bandmembers or engineers will share their stuff, because if we have to wait on elite traders/collectors/archivers nothing will ever get released except to a select few of which I and most of us are not a part of it seems. And why don't you do it? because you only releases stuff to select people who don't share them to me.

[Edited 3/10/17 2:15am]

Militant said:

Moonbeam said:

Militant said:

I discussed this with Londell at our meeting last month.

I told him straight up that, from a fan perspective, "Moonbeam Levels" was perhaps the least interesting choice to include on "4Ever" because it's one of the most heavily bootlegged songs. At least one completely unheard song would have made a significant impact on excitement levels and thus sales.

Well, THIS fan was and still is absolutely giddy that "Moonbeam Levels" was the first song to be released from the vault. It was an incredibly meaningful moment for me personally. That so many fans are spoiled to the degree that they can say "ho hum" about the release of an amazing and widely celebrated song is an indictment on the fanbase in my view. Had it been a widely loved outtake that I don't personally care for too much (say, "All My Dreams"), I would have still bought 4Ever and been delighted that a celebrated song finally got an official release. It boggles my mind that so many fans would seemingly prefer circulating but unofficially released songs to remain in the vault.

I get that, and I'm totally not trying to diminish that. I'm glad it saw a release and I bought multiple copies of the 4Ever release personally. The song remains a classic song and I'm glad more casual fans will hear it officially. I also enjoyed the blog post you made about it and what it meant to you, it was great writing

But I know that you see my point at the same time. It's a fact that the excitement level for the inclusion of the song was pretty tame..... because most hardcore fans have heard it for 20 years. Hell, if an unreleased song is well known enough that Elvis Costello covers it, that kind of says it all. There's songs that Prince did release that are less well known than Moonbeam Levels!

I think it's pretty safe to say that if WB had ran a poll and said "We're going to release ONE vault song, you guys pick which one" then Moonbeam Levels wouldn't get too many votes. Obviously everyone would vote for something nobody, or very few people had heard. Enthusiasm for the release would have doubled or tripled by doing this. There's no reason they couldn't have included ML as well as another unreleased (and completely unheard songs). Hell, for a 2-disc release, one unreleased song per disc isn't exactly a huge ask.

I remember when Tupac's Greatest Hits came out about 18 months after he passed - there were 4 unreleased songs on it, 2 per disc. And one of them, "Changes", was the single and became one of the biggest selling hip-hop songs of all time. That's the playbook they should have gone by - obviously we're in a different era now, but Tupac's Greatest Hits sold over 10 million records and won a Grammy.

My issue, which is more of a concern, with "Moonbeam Levels" being the first vault release as more to do with of all the alleged 1000 songs in the vault, out of all them, it was something so well known. (and yes i bought a copy).

I have wondered for years if the actual content of the vault is even 1/3 of what it is said to be....

Militant said:

Moonbeam said:

Militant said:

I get that, and I'm totally not trying to diminish that. I'm glad it saw a release and I bought multiple copies of the 4Ever release personally. The song remains a classic song and I'm glad more casual fans will hear it officially. I also enjoyed the blog post you made about it and what it meant to you, it was great writing

But I know that you see my point at the same time. It's a fact that the excitement level for the inclusion of the song was pretty tame..... because most hardcore fans have heard it for 20 years. Hell, if an unreleased song is well known enough that Elvis Costello covers it, that kind of says it all. There's songs that Prince did release that are less well known than Moonbeam Levels!

I think it's pretty safe to say that if WB had ran a poll and said "We're going to release ONE vault song, you guys pick which one" then Moonbeam Levels wouldn't get too many votes. Obviously everyone would vote for something nobody, or very few people had heard. Enthusiasm for the release would have doubled or tripled by doing this. There's no reason they couldn't have included ML as well as another unreleased (and completely unheard songs). Hell, for a 2-disc release, one unreleased song per disc isn't exactly a huge ask.

I remember when Tupac's Greatest Hits came out about 18 months after he passed - there were 4 unreleased songs on it, 2 per disc. And one of them, "Changes", was the single and became one of the biggest selling hip-hop songs of all time. That's the playbook they should have gone by - obviously we're in a different era now, but Tupac's Greatest Hits sold over 10 million records and won a Grammy.

I don't agree that everyone would have voted for an uncirculting song. I would have voted for "Moonbeam Levels"! But even more broadly, I am sure there are many fans who had not heard the song but were aware of its reputation that may have voted for it. Or there are others like me who love the song and wanted to see its official release. We can look at the voted tracklist for Crystal Ball 2 as a precedent: http://princevault.com/in..._Volume_II Songs that weren't circulating like "Come Elektra Tuesday" and "If It'll Make U Happy" were passed over in favor of circulating songs like "Electric Intercourse" and "Extraloveable". Plus, the context of the release of this vault song was that it would be placed in the middle of a 2-disc hits compilation. Would fans risk a completely uncirculating song of unknown quality over voting for a known favorite? Imagine "Purple and Gold" was an uncirculating song and fans had voted for that to be included to rub shoulders with songs like "When Doves Cry" and "Sign o' the Times". [Edited 3/10/17 13:39pm]

You make a good case and I might agree with you if I thought WB's unreleased tracks were going to be high quality improvements to tracks we had heard (like we got with Crystal Ball). But, I'm worried that the best we can expect is comparable to the best boots in circulation (like we got with ML on 4Ever), and if that is the case, I would agree with Militant and prefer uncirculating material.