mjscarousal said:

Michael was a child prodigy, Prince was not. Both still geniuses though. To be fair, I think Prince is probably the only genius that was not a child prodigy.

joni mitchell

bob dylan

john lennon

james brown

ray charles

chuck berry

to name a few

unless you dont consider them genius

And heres a question can someone do genius work and not necessarily be a genius?

[Edited 11/5/16 22:19pm]

Noodled24 said:

4You92 said:

Noodled24 said:

Allegations of MJ being thrown up against a wall because he didn't want to perform? He wasn't keen on the Dangerous tour, and History was financial.

1.Billie Jean, Smooth Criminal, Liberian Girl, Wanna Be Starting Something, Don't Stop Til You get enough are just a few. But there are others,and there are unreleased songs as well.

Right, but there is nothing on those demos that suggest MJ was composing on the fly. By the time he's laying down lyrics the music is done.

2.What does it matter that he collaborated or worked along with other producers? The statement from the engineer is proof that he was a great producer and enormous talent. His collaborations don't take away from that. The only thing it shows is that he was able to do both. Literally everyone who worked with him stated that they learned more from him than the other way around. What it does show is that he had a desire to work with others, not that he couldn't compose and write music on his own. When you listen to those demos, they sound basically like the studio product. Literally the entire Bad album save for

So if I hire Quincy to produce an album, that makes me a genius producer?

"They learned more from him" - Was MJ born with the alility to use pro-tools?

2 songs is his own composition, most of History, his biggest hits from Thriller. He was capable of both. This argument you have going is really short sighted, narrow, and ignorant.

Really? Why the two-team approach then? If MJ was a genuis songwriter, composer, arranger, able to compose entire albums using nothing but his mouth... Why create two teams to see who could come up with the best ideas?

3. So if the music, the notation came from his mind and someone else played it, that means they get credit for being a creative mind? Where does that work? That doesn't even make any sense. If it came from his mind, he is the creator. I don't care who played and what instrument they used, they didn't create a thing.

Again - two teams, coming up with ideas. So they weren't all coming from MJ were they?

In your scenario, a secretary should be able to sign the document the boss tells her to type up which is stupid because it came from his mind. She just did the tech work.

No. But if the boss has two secretaries competing to come up with the best letter. Then the boss didn't write the letter did he?

4. Mike was tired and stressed . he also stated that it took a toll on his body, and his doctors suggested for him to slow down. Don't give that argument that Mike was a lazy dude that didn't want to do anything. Way to many people have spoken about his work ethic and practice for you to make that claim. And I don't see where this besmirches his image or makes him a lesser to the unbiased. This argument is silly. [Edited 11/6/16 4:53am] [Edited 11/6/16 4:58am]

Sigh. They talked about this on the podcast.

Noodled24 said:

Okay back to the podcast, because it's turned into a middle school Prince vs. MJ bullshit thread - did anyone actually listen to the podcast?!

4You92 said:

Noodled24 said:

Sigh. They talked about this on the podcast.

1.Are you literally sitting here trying to claim Mike didn't write the music to Billie Jean, Beat It, Smooth Criminal, etc? What do you mean composing on the fly? Mike was notorious for putting down what he wanted on tape and working on it in his home studio later. 2. What 2 teams are you talking about? You can't just state things without giving info. Are you talking about when Mike would have certain teams play a riff and he decided which one he liked? LOL those teams were still working based of Mike's framework. He's still the director of the piece. In fact, Rob Hoffman, the one who stated this, was one of the ones who watched Mike sing each note and chord to a guitarist for one of his songs. He has also spoken about Mike's genius and his amazement at how he wrote music. 3. No Mike didnt like to tour because it took a toll on him and it was hard to sleep afterwards. What does that have to do with his musical output, work ethic, etc? Once again, your argument is dead. [Edited 11/6/16 10:57am]

Somebody sane! Go head!! Also, Michael had a lot of health problems that took a toll on him when he toured such as Lupus and Insomnia.

TrivialPursuit said:

Okay back to the podcast, because it's turned into a middle school Prince vs. MJ bullshit thread - did anyone actually listen to the podcast?!

The podcast was good and it wasnt a competition like comparison it was just truth. Fans of both talk about both.

4You92 said:

Noodled24 said:

Sigh. They talked about this on the podcast.

1.Are you literally sitting here trying to claim Mike didn't write the music to Billie Jean, Beat It, Smooth Criminal, etc? What do you mean composing on the fly? Mike was notorious for putting down what he wanted on tape and working on it in his home studio later.

I'm saying he was involved. But I have a hard time believing he composed music he couldn't play. In the case of Billie Jean, yeah, it's quite minimal, and he pretty much lifted the bassline from another song. In terms of composition there isn't a lot to it. Beat it - he didn't write the guitar. Smooth Criminal underwent at least two drastic reworkings. The difference in production between he two is enormous.

2. What 2 teams are you talking about? You can't just state things without giving info. Are you talking about when Mike would have certain teams play a riff and he decided which one he liked? LOL those teams were still working based of Mike's framework.

Of course MJ was in charge, If the approach is to ask loads of people for their ideas then use the one that works best. Then you can't also claim MJ wrote all the music. That's all I'm saying.

He's still the director of the piece. In fact, Rob Hoffman, the one who stated this, was one of the ones who watched Mike sing each note and chord to a guitarist for one of his songs. He has also spoken about Mike's genius and his amazement at how he wrote music.

Rob does say that, but leaves out key details like the name of the song, and the name of the guitarist they hired who didn't know the chords already. It's the suggestion that he could sing the individual notes but couldn't pick up a guitar and play them?

Maybe you should watch the dangerous deposition he clearly composed every note and insturment to songs he wrote with his voice. And with stunning accuracy how he can mimic instruments with his voice. As far as beat it ed van halen did a guitar solo big woop he didnt write the song.

Noodled24 said:

heathilly said:

jazzvirtuoso said:

heathilly said:

Maybe you should watch the dangerous deposition he clearly composed every note and insturment to songs he wrote with his voice. And with stunning accuracy how he can mimic instruments with his voice. As far as beat it ed van halen did a guitar solo big woop he didnt write the song.

Right! He possessed perfect pitch, like every other true child prodigy in relationship to music. People who don't have this ability don't understand whats it's like to hear songs, chords, notes, bells whistles or whatever and instantly know the names. As a result yes he could compose full songs in his head and dictate this to others. For what it's worth yes he was a muscian, he played piano, I'm not sure what else but he played well enough to "lay down" ideas to others. Therfore: Most # 1 hits= MJ Biggest seller = MJ Popularity/Fame= MJ Impact= MJ Natural Talent= MJ Grammy's= MJ Wealth= MJ Charisma =MJ Dancer= MJ Humanitarian = MJ Philanthropy = MJ Entertainer = MJ Longevity = Tie (Yet to be determined?) Influence = Tie Singer= First 25 Years = MJ/ Second 25 = Prince= Tie Showmanship = Prince Determination = Prince Artistry = Prince Vision = Prince Innovative = Prince Creativity = Prince Work Ethic = Prince Imagination = Prince Musicality= Prince Looks/Aesthetics=Prince Physicality =Prince Musicianship = Prince (Duh) = Tie [Edited 11/6/16 16:28pm]

Interesting hmm...

jazzvirtuoso said:

heathilly said:

Maybe you should watch the dangerous deposition he clearly composed every note and insturment to songs he wrote with his voice. And with stunning accuracy how he can mimic instruments with his voice. As far as beat it ed van halen did a guitar solo big woop he didnt write the song.

Right! He possessed perfect pitch, like every other true child prodigy in relationship to music. People who don't have this ability don't understand whats it's like to hear songs, chords, notes, bells whistles or whatever and instantly know the names.

As a result yes he could compose full songs in his head and dictate this to others.

For what it's worth yes he was a muscian, he played piano, I'm not sure what else but he played well enough to "lay down" ideas to others.

Therfore:


Most # 1 hits= MJ
Biggest seller = MJ
Popularity/Fame= MJ
Impact= MJ
Natural Talent= MJ
Grammy's= MJ
Wealth= MJ
Charisma =MJ
Dancer= MJ
Humanitarian = MJ
Philanthropy = MJ
Entertainer = MJ
Longevity = Tie (Yet to be determined?)
Influence = Tie
Singer= First 25 Years = MJ/ Second 25 = Prince= Tie
Showmanship = Prince
Determination = Prince
Artistry = Prince
Vision = Prince
Innovative = Prince
Creativity = Prince
Work Ethic = Prince
Imagination = Prince
Musicality= Prince
Looks/Aesthetics=Prince
Physicality =Prince
Musicianship = Prince (Duh)

= Tie

[Edited 11/6/16 16:28pm]

4You92 said:

heathilly said:

LBrent said:

paisleyparkgirl said: Well, you're half correct.

yea prince was hardworking craftmen mj was divinely gifted a true rare genius.

[Snip - luv4u]

4You92 said:

Noodled24 said:

Rob does say that, but leaves out key details like the name of the song, and the name of the guitarist they hired who didn't know the chords already. It's the suggestion that he could sing the individual notes but couldn't pick up a guitar and play them?

Who said he couldn't learn to play a guitar if he put his kind to it? With everything else he possessed he probably was able to if he put his mind to hit. However, that wasn't his focus.

I don't think anyone said he couldn't learn if he put his mind to it. But that's hypothetical. Reality is he couldn't.

And who cares if he wrote every single song he did. How does that make him a lesser artist.

I never said it made him less of anything.

The fact that he did it with a lot of his songs shows he could do it with all. That doesn't mean that he couldn't because he wrote much of his own music and most of his hits. This obsession with writing every single piece is ridiculous, because it's clear as day that he wrote much of his own music. I suggest you take healthily's advice and look at the depositions.

Seen them. Someone beatboxing a track from their last album isn't evidence that he wrote the music. He also claims songs came to him fully formed. But as we've established he worked on songs for years at a time.

[Edited 11/7/16 11:07am]

4You92 said:

4You92 said:

Who said he couldn't learn to play a guitar if he put his kind to it? With everything else he possessed he probably was able to if he put his mind to hit. However, that wasn't his focus. And who cares if he wrote every single song he did. How does that make him a lesser artist. The fact that he did it with a lot of his songs shows he could do it with all. That doesn't mean that he couldn't because he wrote much of his own music and most of his hits. This obsession with writing every single piece is ridiculous, because it's clear as day that he wrote much of his own music. I suggest you take healthily's advice and look at the depositions.

Also that first paragraph is a bunch of looney nonsense. Also absolutely insane that you believe you have to physically play something in order to write music. SMH You can sit and believe what you want all day, but the truth is the truth. That won't change.

You can sing a melody without playing an instrument. You can't make music without playing something. If a pianist sits down to give a concert then says "Oh, I can't actually play" then proceeds to "play the piano" by singing... he'd be laughed off stage.

heathilly said:

Maybe you should watch the dangerous deposition he clearly composed every note and insturment to songs he wrote with his voice. And with stunning accuracy how he can mimic instruments with his voice. As far as beat it ed van halen did a guitar solo big woop he didnt write the song.

This was what MJ had to say:

Jackson fully realised his songs before they were put down on paper. “The lyrics, the strings, the chords, everything comes at the moment like a gift that is put right into your head and that’s how I hear it,” said Jackson during the ‘Dangerous’ court case of 1994.

Only problem being that we know that isn't true. If it was, then there should be multiple instances of MJ going into the studio and coming out with a song the next day. Smooth Criminal was worked on for years. Most of his songs were. So they definitely weren't coming to him as fully formed songs in his head.

Noodled24 said:

heathilly said:

Maybe you should watch the dangerous deposition he clearly composed every note and insturment to songs he wrote with his voice. And with stunning accuracy how he can mimic instruments with his voice. As far as beat it ed van halen did a guitar solo big woop he didnt write the song.

This was what MJ had to say:

Jackson fully realised his songs before they were put down on paper. “The lyrics, the strings, the chords, everything comes at the moment like a gift that is put right into your head and that’s how I hear it,” said Jackson during the ‘Dangerous’ court case of 1994.

Only problem being that we know that isn't true. If it was, then there should be multiple instances of MJ going into the studio and coming out with a song the next day. Smooth Criminal was worked on for years. Most of his songs were. So they definitely weren't coming to him as fully formed songs in his head.

Do you thnk MJ's head came fully formed in his head or do you think he sang songs to the surgeon telling him where to hack bits off?

4You92 said:

heathilly said:

Wait, was this thread closed? I can't find it anymore!!!

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Prince & Justin Bieber: A Roundtable Discussion from a bunch of losers - ***[PART 1]***

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just joking lol

jcurley said:

heathilly said:

joni mitchell

bob dylan

john lennon

james brown

ray charles

chuck berry

to name a few

unless you dont consider them genius

And heres a question can someone do genius work and not necessarily be a genius?

[Edited 11/5/16 22:19pm]

Isn't prince always stated as being a prodigy. Mj was famous as a child, prince was not.

No prince was like a teenger who was more skilled than the people he was around mj was litterally in single digits clearly a prodigy before motown. Prince was just a hardworker I give him that

jcurley said:

Noodled24 said:

heathilly said:

jazzvirtuoso said:

heathilly said:

jcurley said:

heathilly said:

joni mitchell

bob dylan

john lennon

james brown

ray charles

chuck berry

to name a few

unless you dont consider them genius

And heres a question can someone do genius work and not necessarily be a genius?

[Edited 11/5/16 22:19pm]

Isn't prince always stated as being a prodigy. Mj was famous as a child, prince was not.

No prince was like a teenger who was more skilled than the people he was around mj was litterally in single digits clearly a prodigy before motown. Prince was just a hardworker I give him that

Yes, both were geniuses. Doesn't matter how each got there. Natural talent or hard work. But, I want to make an observation about both. Prince was probably meant to be a child prodigy, but because he had shit for parents, he was basically abandoned by both. And being shuffled around from house to house gets in the way of learning. Thats why he never developed perfect pitch. This facet of hearing is usually developed before the age of 5-7 yrs old and ALL musically gifted child prodigies have it. But this is a testament to his greatness, he overcame many obstacles to perfect his craft. He worked his ass off relentlessly to get where he wanted to be.

Otoh..

Is it any wonder Michael Jackson became the most successful recording artist of all time? Again, look at his parents he had a slave driving, perfectionist, overbearing and abusive father. All the while under the confines and control of being (like myself) a Jehovah Witness.

Again, he was able to fully develop his "gifts" in short order because of the relentless concentration and focus on music day in and day out. Most people who have perfect pitch have fathers like MJ's. Go and do some research on Mozart.

Why do I keep bringing up perfect pitch?

It's because there are people here that really don't understand what it's like to have it, I have it and so I can describe what people with this abilty( MJ) can accomplish, yes even absent an instrument. Because it allows one to compose music in the head and know exactly what it sounds like. These keys have "character" Because to me for example that F# is twangy, E flat is more mellow, A, is mysterious A flat is sad, C is sunny, G is funky, so on and so forth. No, its not magic and it doesnt automatically(by itself) confer any supernatural abilities or skills to its possessor. You still have to practice your ass off to be a great musician! But, it's easier and does allow a finer appreciation of music, details, nuisances that pass by MOST people unnoticed...


Well, ENOUGH of that for me, got to go. Need to finish practicing for a concert



[Edited 11/7/16 13:48pm]
[Edited 11/7/16 13:49pm]

4You92 said:

jazzvirtuoso said:

Yes, both were geniuses. Doesn't matter how each got there. Natural talent or hard work. But, I want to make an observation about both. Prince was probably meant to be a child prodigy, but because he had shit for parents, he was basically abandoned by both. And being shuffled around from house to house gets in the way of learning. Thats why he never developed perfect pitch. This facet of hearing is usually developed before the age of 5-7 yrs old and ALL musically gifted child prodigies have it. But this is a testament to his greatness, he overcame many obstacles to perfect his craft. He worked his ass off relentlessly to get where he wanted to be. Otoh.. Is it any wonder Michael Jackson became the most successful recording artist of all time? Again, look at his parents he had a slave driving, perfectionist, overbearing and abusive father. All the while under the confines and control of being (like myself) a Jehovah Witness. Again, he was able to fully develop his "gifts" in short order because of the relentless concentration and focus on music day in and day out. Most people who have perfect pitch have fathers like MJ's. Go and do some research on Mozart. Why do I keep bringing up perfect pitch? It's because there are people here that really don't understand what it's like to have it, I have it and so I can describe what people with this abilty( MJ) can accomplish, yes even absent an instrument. Because it allows one to compose music in the head and know exactly what it sounds like. These keys have "character" Because to me for example that F# is twangy, E flat is more mellow, A, is mysterious A flat is sad, C is sunny, G is funky, so on and so forth. No, its not magic and it doesnt automatically(by itself) confer any supernatural abilities or skills to its possessor. You still have to practice your ass off to be a great musician! But, it's easier and does allow a finer appreciation of music, details, nuisances that pass by MOST people unnoticed... Well, ENOUGH of that for me, got to go. Need to finish practicing for a concert [Edited 11/7/16 13:48pm] [Edited 11/7/16 13:49pm]

All of this. This is why I find it silly for people to harp on Mike's limited instrumentalism as some type of proof that he couldn't write music. They don't understand his capabilities. Either that or they don't understand what perfect pitch allows someone to do.

[le sigh]

4You92 said:

Once again stop. He could create chords. Someone can do that can write music, knowing what sounds he wants,what instruments he wants for the sound.

Why not just make the whole album alone then?

No one said Mike sat down and proficiently played music on an instrument. But he could play a bit of piano and drums enough for his purposes. To act like this isn't the case flys against anything anyone who ever worked with him stated. Also, they way he was able to convey music to those who played instruments negates any reason to act like Mike couldn't write his own music. Once again, you are stuck on the mindset of instruments only.

The difference between the demos and the final Quincy/Riley productions is immense.

Honestly, when talking to fans of ANY other artist. None of them would claim that when it comes to music.. the music isn't important.

Again, Rob Hoffman's words: “One morning MJ came in with a new song he had written overnight. We called in a guitar player, and Michael sang every note of every chord to him. “’Here’s the first chord, first note, second note, third note. Here’s the second chord first note, second note, third note’, etc etc. We then witnessed him giving the most heartfelt and profound vocal performance, live in the control room through an SM57,” says Hoffman. “He would sing us an entire string arrangement, every part. Steve Porcaro once told me he witnessed MJ doing that with the string section in the room. Had it all in his head, harmony and everything. Not just little eight bar loop ideas. He would actually sing the entire arrangement into a micro-cassette recorder complete with stops and fills.”

Which song? Without knowing that, this is all hyperbole.

Why hire a guitarist who couldn't play the chords by name?

[Edited 11/8/16 6:10am]

[Edited 11/8/16 6:30am]

Ok, if what you're saying is true then...about one being a "BORN prodigy" and P simply being "a genius and hardworker"...Then this makes sense to me on many levels.

If someone is "BORN" whatever then they have zero control over having whatever. It's in them at birth...It's nothing they earned, it's something they were given, like eye color or hair color or dyslexia or perfect pitch.

But like you said, P was a genius AND a hardworker. So he earned his place in the history books...Sorta like he was able to win an Academy Award (Oscar) after less than 10 years in the industry and not having lifelong connections in the industry (including an entire older family).

Yup. Excellent point. Makes perfect sense now.