zenarose said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

Yes, it seems so. There were also rumors that Prince wanted to leave because they didn't have any private rooms available. Not sure if that it true either.

The only way that I see a Dr. putting a hold on a patient is if they are a danger to themselves and

others. So evidentally the Dr. thought no such thing. P may have been in bad shape but probably if he went home and got proper care it was thought that he would be alright. With all that has happened, I'm sure there are lots of butts making buttonholes in their chairs, afraid of having negligence charges filed against them. The whole plane thing is confusing.

.

Zena: Yes, people don't want to talk because they are "afraid" that they might be implicated. I mean, I'm sure the people who were close to Prince feel terrible. My heart goes out to them. It's just a sad situation.

.

cloveringold85 said:

zenarose said:

The only way that I see a Dr. putting a hold on a patient is if they are a danger to themselves and

others. So evidentally the Dr. thought no such thing. P may have been in bad shape but probably if he went home and got proper care it was thought that he would be alright. With all that has happened, I'm sure there are lots of butts making buttonholes in their chairs, afraid of having negligence charges filed against them. The whole plane thing is confusing.

.

Zena: Yes, people don't want to talk because they are "afraid" that they might be implicated. I mean, I'm sure the people who were close to Prince feel terrible. My heart goes out to them. It's just a sad situation.

.

Yes, especially those closest to the situation. Although I might add, it hasn't made them feel bad enough to keep them from being up front and center with the activities at PP. IJS

disch said:

I'm not being sarcastic at all. Every single day, ME's are tasked with making these exact judgments about many cases, not just this one. If it's "impossible" for them to do that, then that wouldn't be part of their jobs.

fortuneandserendipity said:

If, as has been frequently said, Prince's closest associates can't figure him out, how on earth is a ME going to, when relying on second hand knowledge. ^^Your opinion is just sarcastic. I doubt her expertise is mental health or psychiatry. I bet you're one of those people who think medical experts never err or give a wrong diagnosis. It happens SO OFTEN you wouldn't believe.

I didn't say it was "impossible" for them to arrive at right conclusion. But you're assuming they always get it right, which is just laughable.

fortuneandserendipity said:

disch said:

"…I'm not being sarcastic at all. Every single day, ME's are tasked with making these exact judgments about many cases, not just this one. If it's "impossible" for them to do that, then that wouldn't be part of their jobs…"

fortuneandserendipity said:

"…If, as has been frequently said, Prince's closest associates can't figure him out, how on earth is a ME going to, when relying on second hand knowledge. ^^Your opinion is just sarcastic. I doubt her expertise is mental health or psychiatry. I bet you're one of those people who think medical experts never err or give a wrong diagnosis. It happens SO OFTEN you wouldn't believe…"

"…I didn't say it was "impossible" for them to arrive at right conclusion. But you're assuming they always get it right, which is just laughable…"

You really should do yourself a favor and read that paper I linked to in this earlier post, fortune dude.

Take your time and read it carefully. Seriously. Reread it a couple of times if you don't get it on the first reading.

Don't take this the wrong way, fortune dude. But it sounds like you don't have a lot of first-hand experience in a professional-type career that requires a graduate-level education.

There's nothing wrong with that, in and of itself. But that would explain why you can't seem to get your head around the idea that a Medical Examiner could be excellent at what they're paid big bucks to do.

I know it might not be a barrel of laughs reading stuff like that. But you will learn something about how us college-educated professionals do our jobs using the knowledge we've gained from years of schooling — not to mention the expertise in our respective fields that we develop over lengthy professional careers.

fortuneandserendipity said:

disch said:

"…I'm not being sarcastic at all. Every single day, ME's are tasked with making these exact judgments about many cases, not just this one. If it's "impossible" for them to do that, then that wouldn't be part of their jobs…"

fortuneandserendipity said:

"…If, as has been frequently said, Prince's closest associates can't figure him out, how on earth is a ME going to, when relying on second hand knowledge. ^^Your opinion is just sarcastic. I doubt her expertise is mental health or psychiatry. I bet you're one of those people who think medical experts never err or give a wrong diagnosis. It happens SO OFTEN you wouldn't believe…"

"…I didn't say it was "impossible" for them to arrive at right conclusion. But you're assuming they always get it right, which is just laughable…"

(…continued…) I gotta tell ya, fortune dude. It's pretty laughable to me that you imagine that the ME would not get Prince's autopsy right.

Don't you think that Dr. A. Strobl knew that such a high-profile case could make or break her career as a Medical Examiner?

Don't you think that she was under pressure from the entire world to get Prince's autopsy right?

If you were in her shoes, wouldn't you think to yourself…

"If I'm only going to get one single autopsy right in my whole career as an ME, I'm gonna pull out all the stops for this one to make damn sure I at least get Minnesota's most beloved native son's autopsy right!"

Why would you imagine she wouldn't make damn sure she got Prince's autopsy right? With the scrutiny of the whole world on her?

I — for one — imagine, that due to wanting to make sure the Medical Examiner got it absolutely right, is one of the reasons why the results of the autopsy took as long as they did getting publicized.

I really would love to hear your real answers to these questions.

phatphuk said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

"…I didn't say it was "impossible" for them to arrive at right conclusion. But you're assuming they always get it right, which is just laughable…"

(…continued…) I gotta tell ya, fortune dude. It's pretty laughable to me that you imagine that the ME would not get Prince's autopsy right.

Don't you think that Dr. A. Strobl knew that such a high-profile case could make or break her career as a Medical Examiner?

Don't you think that she was under pressure from the entire world to get Prince's autopsy right?

If you were in her shoes, wouldn't you think to yourself…

"If I'm only going to get one single autopsy right in my whole career as an ME, I'm gonna pull out all the stops for this one to make damn sure I at least get Minnesota's most beloved native son's autopsy right!"

Why would you imagine she wouldn't make damn sure she got Prince's autopsy right? With the scrutiny of the whole world on her?

I — for one — imagine, that due to wanting to make sure the Medical Examiner got it absolutely right, is one of the reasons why the results of the autopsy took as long as they did getting publicized.

I really would love to hear your real answers to these questions.

There's no conspiracy going on here, if that's what you're thinking. As I said earlier:

She doesn't know P or his state of mind, despite her best efforts to find out. No Prince associate is going to say, 'I could imagine he was suicidal, he came across that way' (or something similar). Unless P references it, noone's going to suspect a thing. How many times does it happen where somebody commits suicide and nobody would ever have guessed. And Prince is a tough cookie to figure out; former band members have said as much even after his death.

There was an option for ME to select 'undetermined', not 'accident'. She went with 'accident' as if to unequivocally rule out suicide. Again, as I said before it's laughable that people think experts get it right every time. From my own experience and observations, healthcare professionals are invariably fallible.

laurarichardson said:

StopIt said:

The man had poor advisors.

Medical, legal, accounting, managing, promotion, you name it.

They were and are poor advisors in their respective professions, however those are his choices.

He was terminal, he was not going to reheb, he was an artist and had a compulsion to share that (which not all artists do).

He was not going out in a hospice, or constrained to a hospital bed at others' discretions, which they were imposing on him already.

He was a control freak.

Do the math please, have some honesty with your love for the man, cripes.

I love how you drill right down to the heart of the matter. Thank you

laurarichardson said:

Mumio said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

phatphuk said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

disch said:

"…I'm not being sarcastic at all. Every single day, ME's are tasked with making these exact judgments about many cases, not just this one. If it's "impossible" for them to do that, then that wouldn't be part of their jobs…"

fortuneandserendipity said:

"…If, as has been frequently said, Prince's closest associates can't figure him out, how on earth is a ME going to, when relying on second hand knowledge. ^^Your opinion is just sarcastic. I doubt her expertise is mental health or psychiatry. I bet you're one of those people who think medical experts never err or give a wrong diagnosis. It happens SO OFTEN you wouldn't believe…"

"…I didn't say it was "impossible" for them to arrive at right conclusion. But you're assuming they always get it right, which is just laughable…"

"(…continued…) I gotta tell ya, fortune dude. It's pretty laughable to me that you imagine that the ME would not get Prince's autopsy right…

…Don't you think that Dr. A. Strobl knew that such a high-profile case could make or break her career as a Medical Examiner?…

…Don't you think that she was under pressure from the entire world to get Prince's autopsy right?…

…If you were in her shoes, wouldn't you think to yourself…

“…If I'm only going to get one single autopsy right in my whole career as an ME, I'm gonna pull out all the stops for this one to make damn sure I at least get Minnesota's most beloved native son's autopsy right!…”

…Why would you imagine she wouldn't make damn sure she got Prince's autopsy right? With the scrutiny of the whole world on her?…

…I — for one — imagine, that due to wanting to make sure the Medical Examiner got it absolutely right, is one of the reasons why the results of the autopsy took as long as they did getting publicized…

…I really would love to hear your real answers to these questions…"

"…There's no conspiracy going on here, if that's what you're thinking. As I said earlier: …

…She doesn't know P or his state of mind, despite her best efforts to find out. No Prince associate is going to say, 'I could imagine he was suicidal, he came across that way' (or something similar). Unless P references it, noone's going to suspect a thing. How many times does it happen where somebody commits suicide and nobody would ever have guessed. And Prince is a tough cookie to figure out; former band members have said as much even after his death…

…There was an option for ME to select 'undetermined', not 'accident'. She went with 'accident' as if to unequivocally rule out suicide. Again, as I said before it's laughable that people think experts get it right every time. From my own experience and observations, healthcare professionals are invariably fallible…"

Who said anything about a conspiracy? I didn't.

The only think I'm "thinking" is — "I really would love to hear your real answers to these questions…"

1. Do you think that Dr. A. Strobl knew that such a high-profile case could make or break her career as a Medical Examiner?
   
   
2. Do you think that she was under pressure from the entire world to get Prince's autopsy right?
   
   
3. If you were in her shoes, wouldn't you think to yourself…
   
   
   • "If I'm only going to get one single autopsy right in my whole career as an ME, I'm gonna pull out all the stops for this one to make damn sure I at least get Minnesota's most beloved native son's autopsy right!"
   
   
   
4. Why would you imagine she wouldn't make damn sure she got Prince's autopsy right? Given that she had the scrutiny of the whole world on her.
   
   

For questions #1, #2 and #3, single syllable, Yes-or-No answers would be plenty. Your answer to #4 doesn't necessarily need to go into a lot of detail.

Straight up, fortune dude. I really would love to hear your real answers to the above questions.

Thanks in advance.

fortuneandserendipity said:

phatphuk said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

"…There's no conspiracy going on here, if that's what you're thinking. As I said earlier: …

…She doesn't know P or his state of mind, despite her best efforts to find out. No Prince associate is going to say, 'I could imagine he was suicidal, he came across that way' (or something similar). Unless P references it, noone's going to suspect a thing. How many times does it happen where somebody commits suicide and nobody would ever have guessed. And Prince is a tough cookie to figure out; former band members have said as much even after his death…

…There was an option for ME to select 'undetermined', not 'accident'. She went with 'accident' as if to unequivocally rule out suicide. Again, as I said before it's laughable that people think experts get it right every time. From my own experience and observations, healthcare professionals are invariably fallible…"

Who said anything about a conspiracy? I didn't.

The only think I'm "thinking" is — "I really would love to hear your real answers to these questions…"

1. Do you think that Dr. A. Strobl knew that such a high-profile case could make or break her career as a Medical Examiner?
   
   
2. Do you think that she was under pressure from the entire world to get Prince's autopsy right?
   
   
3. If you were in her shoes, wouldn't you think to yourself…
   
   
   • "If I'm only going to get one single autopsy right in my whole career as an ME, I'm gonna pull out all the stops for this one to make damn sure I at least get Minnesota's most beloved native son's autopsy right!"
   
   
   
4. Why would you imagine she wouldn't make damn sure she got Prince's autopsy right? Given that she had the scrutiny of the whole world on her.
   
   

For questions #1, #2 and #3, single syllable, Yes-or-No answers would be plenty. Your answer to #4 doesn't necessarily need to go into a lot of detail.

Straight up, fortune dude. I really would love to hear your real answers to the above questions.

Thanks in advance.

As I said, no conspiracy going on here.

Q1. Axiomatic

Q2. Axiomatic

Q3. Axiomatic

Q4. If she wasn't at least 90, 95% sure it was an accidental od then she shouldn't have crossed that box, rather the one indicating 'undetermined'. Maybe just maybe she was afraid of a public backlash if her results conveyed that degree of ambiguity. I just don't know how she could be so sure. Remember, it's not the amount of fentanyl that's in dispute. It's the intent behind taking it. How is she supposed to so confidently discern this?- Even if she were a world-renowned mental health expert, which clearly she isn't.

PurpleDiamonds1 said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

I didn't say it was "impossible" for them to arrive at right conclusion. But you're assuming they always get it right, which is just laughable.

Hmmmmm thought the autopsy was complete, he was cremated then a criminal investigation conveniently took place.

That's what happened. PURPLEDIAMONDS1

fortuneandserendipity said:

phatphuk said:

"…Who said anything about a conspiracy? I didn't.

…The only think I'm "thinking" is — "I really would love to hear your real answers to these questions…"

1. Do you think that Dr. A. Strobl knew that such a high-profile case could make or break her career as a Medical Examiner?
   
   
2. Do you think that she was under pressure from the entire world to get Prince's autopsy right?
   
   
3. If you were in her shoes, wouldn't you think to yourself…
   
   
   • "“If I'm only going to get one single autopsy right in my whole career as an ME, I'm gonna pull out all the stops for this one to make damn sure I at least get Minnesota's most beloved native son's autopsy right!”"
   
   
   
4. Why would you imagine she wouldn't make damn sure she got Prince's autopsy right? Given that she had the scrutiny of the whole world on her.
   
   

…For questions #1, #2 and #3, single syllable, Yes-or-No answers would be plenty. Your answer to #4 doesn't necessarily need to go into a lot of detail…

…Straight up, fortune dude. I really would love to hear your real answers to the above questions…

…Thanks in advance…"

"…As I said, no conspiracy going on here…

Q1. Axiomatic…

Q2. Axiomatic…

Q3. Axiomatic…

Q4. If she wasn't at least90, 95% sure it was an accidental od then she shouldn't have crossed that box, rather the one indicating 'undetermined'. Maybe just maybe she was afraid of a public backlash if her results conveyed that degree of ambiguity. I just don't know how she could be so sure. Remember, it's not the amount of fentanyl that's in dispute. It's the intent behind taking it. How is she supposed to so confidently discern this?- Even if she were a world-renowned mental health expert, which clearly she isn't…"

"Axiomatic", huh? Is that a synomym for "No Comment"? Way to evade the question, dude! You should be in the Presidential debates! ;¬)

The word "Axiomatic" isn't in my vocabulary to tell the truth. So let me go google it. And I'll get back to you later when {or IF} I figure out wherever it is you're coming from.

I'll also go try to google an answer to why you keep repeating "no conspiracy" even though I didn't say anything about a conspiracy.

Wish me luck!

[Edited 10/11/16 21:40pm]

I just became aware of the news report. I thought yall might be interested.

http://kstp.com/news/prince-received-out-patient-treatment-bank-trustee-drills-princes-vault-open/4119830/

The story talks about the vault, but it also talks about another issue that didn't draw a lot of attention.

Take from it what you will, as it is the media.

zenarose said:

zenarose said:

"…I just became aware of the news report. I thought yall might be interested…

…http://kstp.com/news/prince-received-out-patient-treatment-bank-trustee-drills-princes-vault-open/4119830/…

…The story talks about the vault, but it also talks about another issue that didn't draw a lot of attention…

…Take from it what you will, as it is the media…"

Good one, zenarose!

Thanks for the headsup.

PurpleDiamonds1 said:

zenarose said:

That's what happened. PURPLEDIAMONDS1

Thought so. Therefore the ME did not have all the facts and maybe his death would have been looked at as possible murder vs accidental. Zenarose thanks for posting the older news article...find it disturbing that Bremer was allowed to hire someone to drill open his vault. Who else was there to take inventory and to witness what was actually in the vault...like his will.

You know they won't ever tell that. I wondered the very same thing when the news announced that

the vault was being drilled. Hopefully they had the fore thought to video the process. CYA ya know

zenarose said:

"…I just became aware of the news report. I thought yall might be interested…

…http://kstp.com/news/prince-received-out-patient-treatment-bank-trustee-drills-princes-vault-open/4119830/…

…The story talks about the vault, but it also talks about another issue that didn't draw a lot of attention…

…Take from it what you will, as it is the media…"

I don't get what you mean by, "as it is the media", zenarose. Is that a bad thing?

Just about everything you know about anything in the world, you've learned of it from one form of media or another. Or do you get all of your information directly from the 100% original source of that information?

It's worth pointing out, that that KSTP story is even more evidence that debunks the whole terminal illness wish list.

As somebody else said earlier, if Prince was suffering from a terminal illness, then you can bet that that sort of thing would have been reported on by now. Just like this outpatient thing has been reported on.

It's also worth pointing out, that when reporters refer to "anonymous sources", they're not talking about the kid at the McDonald's drive-thru that sold the reporter their Egg McMuffin™ on the way to the newsroom that morning.

The "anonymous source" could be the Medical Examiner. It could be the Chief of Police. It could be a federal law enforcement officer. It could be a Paisley Park employee. It could even be one of Prince's close family members.

People with valuable information have all sorts of legitimate, above-board reasons for preferring to remain anonymous.

Now, if some trash-mongering, click-baity tabloid site talks about "anonymous sources", then that's a horse of a differnt color. People should rightfully be suspicious of tabloid-style "reporting" — {if it could even be called reporting}.

But if a reputable local or national network television news site quotes an "anonymous source" off the record, that's simply business as usual in the legitimate journalism game. And you can usually bank on the fact that their sources are likely to be as unimpeachable a source as you could ever possibly hope for.

Thanks again for posting that KSTP story, zenarose.

phatphuk said:

zenarose said:

"…I just became aware of the news report. I thought yall might be interested…

…http://kstp.com/news/prince-received-out-patient-treatment-bank-trustee-drills-princes-vault-open/4119830/…

…The story talks about the vault, but it also talks about another issue that didn't draw a lot of attention…

…Take from it what you will, as it is the media…"

I don't get what you mean by, "as it is the media", zenarose. Is that a bad thing?

Just about everything you know about anything in the world, you've learned of it from one form of media or another. Or do you get all of your information directly from the 100% original source of that information?

It's worth pointing out, that that KSTP story is even more evidence that debunks the whole terminal illness wish list.

As somebody else said earlier, if Prince was suffering from a terminal illness, then you can bet that that sort of thing would have been reported on by now. Just like this outpatient thing has been reported on.

It's also worth pointing out, that when reporters refer to "anonymous sources", they're not talking about the kid at the McDonald's drive-thru that sold the reporter their Egg McMuffin™ on the way to the newsroom that morning.

The "anonymous source" could be the Medical Examiner. It could be the Chief of Police. It could be a federal law enforcement officer. It could be a Paisley Park employee. It could even be one of Prince's close family members.

People with valuable information have all sorts of legitimate, above-board reasons for preferring to remain anonymous.

Now, if some trash-mongering, click-baity tabloid site talks about "anonymous sources", then that's a horse of a differnt color. People should rightfully be suspicious of tabloid-style "reporting" — {if it could even be called reporting}.

But if a reputable local or national network television news site quotes an "anonymous source" off the record, that's simply business as usual in the legitimate journalism game. And you can usually bank on the fact that their sources are likely to be as unimpeachable a source as you could ever possibly hope for.

Thanks again for posting that KSTP story, zenarose.

Well you know the media has put a bee in my bonnet on many things. This story just seemed to

make better sense to me. Of course, I am not decided on anything, but it has given me a clearer

perspective of another path to further investigate more thoroughly.

phatphuk said:

zenarose said:

"…I just became aware of the news report. I thought yall might be interested…

…http://kstp.com/news/prince-received-out-patient-treatment-bank-trustee-drills-princes-vault-open/4119830/…

…The story talks about the vault, but it also talks about another issue that didn't draw a lot of attention…

…Take from it what you will, as it is the media…"

It's worth pointing out, that that KSTP story is even more evidence that debunks the whole terminal illness wish list.\

No, it does not.

There is nothing to confirm one way or the other WHY Prince might have been taking pain medications;

there is nothing to confirm if he had any other conditions alongside a 'perceived dependency on pain medications';

it doesn't mention the fact that Prince was receiving prescriptions for undisclosed medications which WEREN'T pain-killers, from Dr S;

it doesn't mention that mysterious 'tests' had been conducted (the results of which Dr S was delivering on the day of P's death);

it doesn't mention that P had been admitted to hospital for intravenous treatments on previous occasions.

All of the above incidents - equally 'reported by the media' - could be suggestive of 'something else going on' and would be JUST AS PLAUSIBLE as this one.

As somebody else said earlier, if Prince was suffering from a terminal illness, then you can bet that that sort of thing would have been reported on by now. Just like this outpatient thing has been reported on.

Not necessarily.

IF you were reading properly, you would also have noticed this:

'Sources said many people seek out-patient therapy to make sure they do not become addicted to prescribed painkillers and other types of medication and others will seek help when they think they might have symptoms indicating they are starting to become dependent on the drugs and are seeking counseling to help them slowly move away from the medications.
.

'Law enforcement sources said only the Medical Examiner would be able to determine if Prince’s autopsy showed any signs of a person who had been habitually abusing any form of prescribed medications'.

.

The ME said that there were no signs of previous usage of Fentanyl (and ticked the NA box for all other drugs);
.
So, by your OWN estimation - and that of this article / the 'law enforcement sources' - that should tell us that there was no 'habitual abuse', right?
.
In which case, we're back to where we started - that it is just as possible something else was going on and which wasn't included in the ME's report (because they're not legally obliged to include extraneous factors that aren't DIRECTLY responsible for death in that instance) as not.

.

Friends, I now have no doubt in my mind that Prince Rogers Nelson was murdered. I have absolutely no proof. I've read Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight by Thom Hartmann, The Holy Bible by, well, God, if you will, The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander, A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn, watched on youtube every possible video by Amy Schumer, Richard Pryor, Jerry Seinfeld, Larry David, Martin Short, Steve Martin, Wendy Leibman, Elayne Boosler, Andy Kaufman and George Carlin, watched the movies Lenny starring Dustin Hoffman, The Front starring Woody Allen, the documentary CitizenFour (about Edward Snowden), and the biopic Snowden (starring Joseph Gordon-Levitt) and all of it just brings me to the conclusion that Prince was rubbed out by the Central Intelligence Agency.

Dibblekins said:

IMO many people don't want to believe anything "bad" about Prince. He was and is their idol and therefore untouchable. But Prince was human. He was brilliant and superbly gifted, yet he had his demons, as many do. If the autopsy report is released, it may contain test results which surprise or shock them, opening their eyes to his humanity. He can still wear the halo, but he can also wear humility, another gift to all of us.

disch said:

I think she ruled out suicide because she had access to a lot of info that we don't have, plus she has training and expertise to evaluate that info in ways we don't. I assume, as a licensed ME, is she's a fully qualified pro, who knows much more than you or I (assuming you're not a professional ME). I don't she just closes her eyes and randomly checks off a box.

fortuneandserendipity said:

Why she feels she knows enough to rule out suicide, I presume, is because nobody she asked who was involved in the investigation had any idea.

If by doing the autopsy she realized the extent of damage done to the body because of opiates addiction throughout the years then it would make sense to rule it an accidental overdose.

1Sasha said:

Tony Visconti said David Bowie told him he had more he wanted to do, too. We just won't know for 30 years, or sooner if the autopsy report is revealed.