Previous parts of this subject were full or disappeared.

So we can post the lastest findings, theories, etc in this thread.

They will just shut it down again.

I wish they wouldn't shut this down repeatedly.

>

Like it or not, there is still an on-going investigation into P's death - and it involves this drug - so there needs to be a thread where people can 'deposit' their thoughts on the matter (thereby avoiding it spilling too excessively into other threads)!

>

Also, every time we get another little snippet from people involved in P's life, or the circumstances surrounding his life / death / the estate, it has an impact on our perception of what 'went down'. This thread is a useful repository for analysis.

>

If the other threads have been deleted / removed, could they PLEASE be reinstated and linked here, mods? Thank you!

>

Dibblekins said:

I wish they wouldn't shut this down repeatedly.

>

Like it or not, there is still an on-going investigation into P's death - and it involves this drug - so there needs to be a thread where people can 'deposit' their thoughts on the matter (thereby avoiding it spilling too excessively into other threads)!

>

Also, every time we get another little snippet from people involved in P's life, or the circumstances surrounding his life / death / the estate, it has an impact on our perception of what 'went down'. This thread is a useful repository for analysis.

>

If the other threads have been deleted / removed, could they PLEASE be reinstated and linked here, mods? Thank you!

>

The MOD's have been asked to restore the other threads but I think on Part 3, the MOD stated that

it could not be salvaged. I got smart and saved all the links from all the research on my PC.

zenarose said:

I got smart and saved all the links from all the research on my PC.

.

Please post some of them here.

http://m.startribune.com/pills-seized-from-paisley-park-contained-illicit-fentanyl-same-drug-that-killed-prince/390816101/

https://www.dea.gov/docs/Counterfeit%20Prescription%20Pills.pdf

http://www.anokacounty.us/DocumentCenter/View/10066

http://www.co.carver.mn.us/departments/county-sheriff/general-information/prince-investigation

https://medlineplus.gov/druginfo/meds/a605043.html

https://www.verywell.com/how-long-does-fentanyl-stay-in-your-system-80257

http://stopoverdoseil.org/narcan.html

That should get ya started. If you have questions about something just give me a shout and I will

post the link.

It's frustrating because I now have to look at three or four threads for info / ideas instead of just one! And that means having to post the same thing several times too! Grrrr!

Here is what I've saved; updated with recent reputable links.

Prince autopsy summary report (6/2/2016)
http://www.anokacounty.us...View/10066
Key points (report signed by Chief Medical Examiner Dr. A. Quinn Strobl)

• Manner of death: “Accident”
• Cause of death: “fentanyl toxicity”
• How injury occurred: “the decedent self-administered fentanyl”
• Other significant conditions: “na” Email from the ME’s office to Disch explaining this field: “All other important diseases, conditions, or risk factors that were present at the time of death or pre-existed in the deceased and that may have contributed to the death or event of death (if a traumatic or toxic death) may be listed in the other significant conditions section.”
• Scars & amputations: “Scar, left hip; scar, right lower leg”

-

Prince death certificate ("record of death") (6/2/2016)
http://rollingout.com/wp-...60x742.jpg
-

Key articles (from reputable sources only – no tabloids, gossip sites, obscure blogs)

-

ET (10/5/2016): Prince's Sister Tyka Nelson Says She Knew His Death Was Coming: 'I've Been Preparing for Two Years'
http://www.etonline.com/n...two_years/
-
Key points (quotes from Tyka Nelson):

• “"It wasn't hard at all," Nelson said about coming to grips with Prince's death. "It was a two-word phone call: 'He's gone.' And I knew who he meant. I hung up the phone. An employee of Prince called. I have been preparing for two years, so I knew that it was coming."
• "He said it a couple of years ago: 'I've done everything that I've come to do.’ I was crushed for about two years.… I've had two years to deal with it, but there's a lot of people that have only had from April to now, so I guess I would say give it another year and a half and maybe you'll be where I'm at."

-

AP (10/3/2016): Official: Prince probe focuses on doctors, black market
http://bigstory.ap.org/ar...ack-market
-
Key point: Investigators are probing whether doctors illegally prescribed opioids meant for the pop star and whether the fentanyl that killed him came from a black-market source, a law enforcement official said.

-
AP (8/21/2016): Official: Pills found at Prince's estate contained fentanyl
http://bigstory.ap.org/ar...d-fentanyl

-

Key points (all alleged from unnamed "officials")

• Counterfeit prescription opioid pills were found at Paisley Park. Most were in bottles of aspirin and Vitamin C inside a suitcase and bags — including one Prince often carried with him.
• Nearly two dozen pills in an Aleve bottle were falsely labeled "Watson 385." Acetaminophen/hydrocodone pills (e.g., Vicodin) used to legitimately carry that label, but at least one of the pills tested positive for fentanyl.
• Some pills also contained lidocaine and U-47700 — a synthetic opioid that is eight times more powerful than morphine.
• Some of these pills were with Prince on his April 15 flight
• Prior to his death, Prince tested negative for fentanyl, which means he wasn't a long-time abuser of that drug, but likely took the fatal dose within the 24 hours before he died (author couldn’t verify when the “prior” drug test(s) occurred but referenced Dr. Shulenberg’s alleged April 20 and April 7 medical tests on Prince)
• The autopsy report also shows Prince had diazepam (Valium), lidocaine and hydrocodone acids in his body
• Prince had no prescription for any controlled substances in the state of Minnesota in the 12 months before he died

-

StarTribune (8/21/2016): Pills seized from Paisley Park contained illicit fentanyl, same drug that killed Prince
http://www.startribune.com/pills-seized-from-paisley-park-contained-illicit-fentanyl-same-drug-that-killed-prince/390816101/

-

Key points (unless otherwise noted, all from "sources with knowledge of the investigation")

• Amount of fentanyl in Prince's system was so great, no one could have survived it
• Prince's clothes were on backward and his socks were inside-out
• "A DEA spokesman said last week that investigators working the Prince case “haven’t assigned a time limit” on their work, adding that it will be “ongoing and will be thorough.””
• Per Jason Kamerud, chief deputy of the Carver County Sheriff’s Office: At present, no one in Carver County is dedicated to the investigation full time.

-

NYTimes (6/21/2016): I Was on That Fateful Flight With Prince: A Protégée Tells Her Story
http://www.nytimes.com/20....html?_r=0

-

Key points (all alleged by Judith Hill)

• Prince's "eyes fixed" and he "nodded off" in front of Hill on the April 15 private-plane ride that made an emergency landing in Moline, Illinois.
• Prince was revived on the tarmac with a Narcan shot (source of this info not identified)
• Hill had never seen Prince in physical pain, and the plane incident was the first time she'd seen him in distress. She declined to discuss the details of his hospital treatment.
• Prince was "serious about getting help.” Once back in Minn., he had tests with Dr. Michael Shulenberg, the local family physician he allegedly had seen at least several times prior, "because he was concerned, and he wanted to do the right thing for his own body.”
• Prince told Hill: “'I had to fight for my life'" and "he said it was the hardest thing he’d ever done, to get back into his body like that."

-

CNN (6/3/3016): Man who found Prince: 'Nothing can prepare' you
http://www.cnn.com/2016/0...-kornfeld/

-
Key point: Andrew Kornfeld, the son of the California addiction- and pain-management specialist Dr. Howard Kornfeld that Prince’s associate had allegedly contacted the day before, says he made the 911 call because the others there (reportedly staffers Meron Bekure and Kirk Johnson) were too distraught

-

StarTribune (6/2/2016): Timeline of Prince's Final Days
http://www.startribune.co...381731991/

-

Key points (no sources specified)

• On April 7, the day Prince canceled his Atlanta concerts because of "flu," he saw Dr. Shulenberg
• On April 16, Prince threw a last-minute Paisley Park dance party and appeared briefly, telling the crowd to “wait a few days” before offering any prayers.
• On April 19, Prince attended a concert at the Dakota, the last time he was seen in public
• On April 20, Dr. Howard Kornfeld was contacted but couldn't clear his schedule so he sent his son Andrew on a night flight to MPLS instead

-

StarTribune (5/21/2016): Prince Likely Dead for Hours As Picture of His Last Days Takes Shape
http://www.startribune.co...380338131/

-

Key points (all alleged from "sources with knowledge of the investigation")

• Prince had been receiving medical treatment for withdrawal symptoms in the weeks prior to his death
• Prince had grown "increasingly agitated" in the days after the April 15 plane incident
• A staff member called an unnamed Prince associate in NY at 6am on April 20 for advice
• Prince’s associate(s) then reached out to Prince associate Phaedra Ellis-Lamkins in California, who contacted Dr. Kornfeld on the afternoon of April 20
• Prince received an intravenous treatment at a hospital on April 20
• When Howard Kornfeld’s son Andrew arrived at Paisley Park on April 21, he was carrying Suboxone, a drug used to help ease opioid withdrawal, which he was not legally permitted to administer.
• Dr. Shulenberg arrived on the scene after the paramedics were there, to deliver test results.

-

CNN (5/17/2016): What Prince's bodyguard has to say about Prince, pain and addiction
http://www.cnn.com/2016/0...rd-speaks/

-
Key point: Bodyguard Chris Gaither says he "never saw anything" that pointed to a dependency, despite packing Prince's bags "daily" and going on tour with him

-

NYTimes (5/5/2016): Prince’s Addiction and an Intervention Too Late
http://www.nytimes.com/20...-says.html

-

Key points (all from unnamed sources unless otherwise noted)

• Prince was "surprisingly autonomous," often making his own appointments without his assistant’s knowledge
• Dr. Kornfeld's lawyer says the plan was to "get Prince stabilized" in Minnesota then convince him to go to California for treatment. Dr. Kornfeld had allegedly arranged for an unnamed doctor in MPLS to “clear his schedule” the morning of April 21 to meet with Prince.
• "Prince began taking painkillers for his ailment years ago and ultimately decided to have hip surgery in the mid-2000s, after which he was prescribed more pain medicine, according to a person who worked with him"
• "Concerned friends said they had recently been discussing Prince’s emotional state. He had told some people that he was feeling depressed, and some suspected he was going through a period of professional stagnancy....Others said they did not detect any depression."
• He had reassured numerous friends after the plane incident that he was fine, but unnamed friends decided that they needed to intervene
• On "April 18, Ms. Lawler-Freas, the Atlanta promoter, said that Prince’s representatives told her to hold off on confirming the eight tour dates she had arranged for him. He was going to take a break that week."
• According to Dr. Funkenberry, if you abused drugs, “you weren’t going to work with [Prince]. You didn’t have a job.”

-

StarTribune (5/4/2016): Prince died amid frantic plans for drug addiction treatment

http://www.startribune.co...378051471/

-
Key points (mostly attributed to William Mauzy, the criminal defense attorney hired to represent the Kornfelds)

• After he was first contacted by Prince’s representatives on “the night of ” April 20, Dr. Kornfeld requested that a Twin Cities physician check on Prince and stabilize him, sources said.
• Prince’s representatives called Dr. Kornfeld because of his reputation as a nationally known addiction researcher, Mauzy said, and because they felt Prince “was dealing with a grave medical emergency.”
• Andrew Kornfeld never administered the Suboxone that he brought with him to Paisley Park, Mauzy said.

-

AP (5/1/2016): Longtime chef: Prince fought throat, stomach pains recently
http://bigstory.ap.org/ar...s-recently

-

Key points:

• "In recent months, [chef Ray] Roberts said, Prince would have sore throats or seem like he wasn't feeling well for "weeks at a time."
• Prince has been "eating less and drinking less water, and looked like he was losing weight."
• Regarding overdose/drug use: According to Chef, "that wasn't the man he saw nearly every night, "not even a hint. Not at all.""

-

Background material

-

Death certificate guidelines (CDC): https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/...hb_cod.pdf
Rules from the CDC for how authorities should fill out a death certificate's fields

-

Fentanyl half-life and detection: http://mentalhealthdaily....ur-system/
Key point: Fentanyl is detectable in blood for up to 4 days after ingestion, and in hair possibly for months
Relevant because: The 8/21 AP report claimed test(s) “prior to Prince’s death” did not detect Fentanyl.

-

Counterfeit Prescription Pills Containing Fentanyls: A Global Threat (DEA report: 7/22/2016): https://www.dea.gov/docs/...0Pills.pdf

-
Key points

• Hundreds of thousands of deadly fentanyl-laced counterfeit pills made to look like other prescription opioids have flooded the U.S. drug black-market this year, causing a number of fatal ODs
• Some counterfeit opioid pills have been found to contain powerful synthetic opioid U-47700
• The fentanyl is indentifiable in the pills via lab analysis (the pills aren't visually distinct)

-

Naloxone (Narcan) use and effects: Drug is an “antidote” to opioid overdoses
https://www.drugs.com/naloxone.html

-

Suboxone (buprenorphine/naloxone) treatment: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.g.../NBK64246/
Key point: "A patient should no longer be intoxicated or have any residual opioid effect from his or her last dose of opioid before receiving a first dose of buprenorphine."
Relevant because: Suboxone was the treatment Dr. Kornfeld was allegedly going to begin with Prince on April 21. If so, Prince might have had to be tested for opioids in his system prior to starting treatment.

-

Minnesota statutes: Laws covering things like autopsies, death certificates, murder conviction requirements, etc.
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/

Thanks udo for rebooting this thread {again}.

I think we need to give folks who object to the topics discussed in this thread, a little helping hand finding the door.

Click The Middle Button To Make This Discussion Go Away...

[Edited 10/9/16 8:43am]

disch said:

Here is what I've saved; updated with recent reputable links.

Prince autopsy summary report (6/2/2016)
http://www.anokacounty.us...View/10066
Key points (report signed by Chief Medical Examiner Dr. A. Quinn Strobl)

• Manner of death: “Accident”
• Cause of death: “fentanyl toxicity”
• How injury occurred: “the decedent self-administered fentanyl”
• Other significant conditions: “na” Email from the ME’s office to Disch explaining this field: “All other important diseases, conditions, or risk factors that were present at the time of death or pre-existed in the deceased and that may have contributed to the death or event of death (if a traumatic or toxic death) may be listed in the other significant conditions section.”
• Scars & amputations: “Scar, left hip; scar, right lower leg”

-

Prince death certificate ("record of death") (6/2/2016)
http://rollingout.com/wp-...60x742.jpg
-

Key articles (from reputable sources only – no tabloids, gossip sites, obscure blogs)

-

ET (10/5/2016): Prince's Sister Tyka Nelson Says She Knew His Death Was Coming: 'I've Been Preparing for Two Years'
http://www.etonline.com/n...two_years/
-
Key points (quotes from Tyka Nelson):

• “"It wasn't hard at all," Nelson said about coming to grips with Prince's death. "It was a two-word phone call: 'He's gone.' And I knew who he meant. I hung up the phone. An employee of Prince called. I have been preparing for two years, so I knew that it was coming."
• "He said it a couple of years ago: 'I've done everything that I've come to do.’ I was crushed for about two years.… I've had two years to deal with it, but there's a lot of people that have only had from April to now, so I guess I would say give it another year and a half and maybe you'll be where I'm at."

-

AP (10/3/2016): Official: Prince probe focuses on doctors, black market
http://bigstory.ap.org/ar...ack-market
-
Key point: Investigators are probing whether doctors illegally prescribed opioids meant for the pop star and whether the fentanyl that killed him came from a black-market source, a law enforcement official said.

-
AP (8/21/2016): Official: Pills found at Prince's estate contained fentanyl
http://bigstory.ap.org/ar...d-fentanyl

-

Key points (all alleged from unnamed "officials")

• Counterfeit prescription opioid pills were found at Paisley Park. Most were in bottles of aspirin and Vitamin C inside a suitcase and bags — including one Prince often carried with him.
• Nearly two dozen pills in an Aleve bottle were falsely labeled "Watson 385." Acetaminophen/hydrocodone pills (e.g., Vicodin) used to legitimately carry that label, but at least one of the pills tested positive for fentanyl.
• Some pills also contained lidocaine and U-47700 — a synthetic opioid that is eight times more powerful than morphine.
• Some of these pills were with Prince on his April 15 flight
• Prior to his death, Prince tested negative for fentanyl, which means he wasn't a long-time abuser of that drug, but likely took the fatal dose within the 24 hours before he died (author couldn’t verify when the “prior” drug test(s) occurred but referenced Dr. Shulenberg’s alleged April 20 and April 7 medical tests on Prince)
• The autopsy report also shows Prince had diazepam (Valium), lidocaine and hydrocodone acids in his body
• Prince had no prescription for any controlled substances in the state of Minnesota in the 12 months before he died

-

StarTribune (8/21/2016): Pills seized from Paisley Park contained illicit fentanyl, same drug that killed Prince
http://www.startribune.com/pills-seized-from-paisley-park-contained-illicit-fentanyl-same-drug-that-killed-prince/390816101/

-

Key points (unless otherwise noted, all from "sources with knowledge of the investigation")

• Amount of fentanyl in Prince's system was so great, no one could have survived it
• Prince's clothes were on backward and his socks were inside-out
• "A DEA spokesman said last week that investigators working the Prince case “haven’t assigned a time limit” on their work, adding that it will be “ongoing and will be thorough.””
• Per Jason Kamerud, chief deputy of the Carver County Sheriff’s Office: At present, no one in Carver County is dedicated to the investigation full time.

-

NYTimes (6/21/2016): I Was on That Fateful Flight With Prince: A Protégée Tells Her Story
http://www.nytimes.com/20....html?_r=0

-

Key points (all alleged by Judith Hill)

• Prince's "eyes fixed" and he "nodded off" in front of Hill on the April 15 private-plane ride that made an emergency landing in Moline, Illinois.
• Prince was revived on the tarmac with a Narcan shot (source of this info not identified)
• Hill had never seen Prince in physical pain, and the plane incident was the first time she'd seen him in distress. She declined to discuss the details of his hospital treatment.
• Prince was "serious about getting help.” Once back in Minn., he had tests with Dr. Michael Shulenberg, the local family physician he allegedly had seen at least several times prior, "because he was concerned, and he wanted to do the right thing for his own body.”
• Prince told Hill: “'I had to fight for my life'" and "he said it was the hardest thing he’d ever done, to get back into his body like that."

-

CNN (6/3/3016): Man who found Prince: 'Nothing can prepare' you
http://www.cnn.com/2016/0...-kornfeld/

-
Key point: Andrew Kornfeld, the son of the California addiction- and pain-management specialist Dr. Howard Kornfeld that Prince’s associate had allegedly contacted the day before, says he made the 911 call because the others there (reportedly staffers Meron Bekure and Kirk Johnson) were too distraught

-

StarTribune (6/2/2016): Timeline of Prince's Final Days
http://www.startribune.co...381731991/

-

Key points (no sources specified)

• On April 7, the day Prince canceled his Atlanta concerts because of "flu," he saw Dr. Shulenberg
• On April 16, Prince threw a last-minute Paisley Park dance party and appeared briefly, telling the crowd to “wait a few days” before offering any prayers.
• On April 19, Prince attended a concert at the Dakota, the last time he was seen in public
• On April 20, Dr. Howard Kornfeld was contacted but couldn't clear his schedule so he sent his son Andrew on a night flight to MPLS instead

-

StarTribune (5/21/2016): Prince Likely Dead for Hours As Picture of His Last Days Takes Shape
http://www.startribune.co...380338131/

-

Key points (all alleged from "sources with knowledge of the investigation")

• Prince had been receiving medical treatment for withdrawal symptoms in the weeks prior to his death
• Prince had grown "increasingly agitated" in the days after the April 15 plane incident
• A staff member called an unnamed Prince associate in NY at 6am on April 20 for advice
• Prince’s associate(s) then reached out to Prince associate Phaedra Ellis-Lamkins in California, who contacted Dr. Kornfeld on the afternoon of April 20
• Prince received an intravenous treatment at a hospital on April 20
• When Howard Kornfeld’s son Andrew arrived at Paisley Park on April 21, he was carrying Suboxone, a drug used to help ease opioid withdrawal, which he was not legally permitted to administer.
• Dr. Shulenberg arrived on the scene after the paramedics were there, to deliver test results.

-

CNN (5/17/2016): What Prince's bodyguard has to say about Prince, pain and addiction
http://www.cnn.com/2016/0...rd-speaks/

-
Key point: Bodyguard Chris Gaither says he "never saw anything" that pointed to a dependency, despite packing Prince's bags "daily" and going on tour with him

-

NYTimes (5/5/2016): Prince’s Addiction and an Intervention Too Late
http://www.nytimes.com/20...-says.html

-

Key points (all from unnamed sources unless otherwise noted)

• Prince was "surprisingly autonomous," often making his own appointments without his assistant’s knowledge
• Dr. Kornfeld's lawyer says the plan was to "get Prince stabilized" in Minnesota then convince him to go to California for treatment. Dr. Kornfeld had allegedly arranged for an unnamed doctor in MPLS to “clear his schedule” the morning of April 21 to meet with Prince.
• "Prince began taking painkillers for his ailment years ago and ultimately decided to have hip surgery in the mid-2000s, after which he was prescribed more pain medicine, according to a person who worked with him"
• "Concerned friends said they had recently been discussing Prince’s emotional state. He had told some people that he was feeling depressed, and some suspected he was going through a period of professional stagnancy....Others said they did not detect any depression."
• He had reassured numerous friends after the plane incident that he was fine, but unnamed friends decided that they needed to intervene
• On "April 18, Ms. Lawler-Freas, the Atlanta promoter, said that Prince’s representatives told her to hold off on confirming the eight tour dates she had arranged for him. He was going to take a break that week."
• According to Dr. Funkenberry, if you abused drugs, “you weren’t going to work with [Prince]. You didn’t have a job.”

-

StarTribune (5/4/2016): Prince died amid frantic plans for drug addiction treatment

http://www.startribune.co...378051471/

-
Key points (mostly attributed to William Mauzy, the criminal defense attorney hired to represent the Kornfelds)

• After he was first contacted by Prince’s representatives on “the night of ” April 20, Dr. Kornfeld requested that a Twin Cities physician check on Prince and stabilize him, sources said.
• Prince’s representatives called Dr. Kornfeld because of his reputation as a nationally known addiction researcher, Mauzy said, and because they felt Prince “was dealing with a grave medical emergency.”
• Andrew Kornfeld never administered the Suboxone that he brought with him to Paisley Park, Mauzy said.

-

AP (5/1/2016): Longtime chef: Prince fought throat, stomach pains recently
http://bigstory.ap.org/ar...s-recently

-

Key points:

• "In recent months, [chef Ray] Roberts said, Prince would have sore throats or seem like he wasn't feeling well for "weeks at a time."
• Prince has been "eating less and drinking less water, and looked like he was losing weight."
• Regarding overdose/drug use: According to Chef, "that wasn't the man he saw nearly every night, "not even a hint. Not at all.""

-

Background material

-

Death certificate guidelines (CDC): https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/...hb_cod.pdf
Rules from the CDC for how authorities should fill out a death certificate's fields

-

Fentanyl half-life and detection: http://mentalhealthdaily....ur-system/
Key point: Fentanyl is detectable in blood for up to 4 days after ingestion, and in hair possibly for months
Relevant because: The 8/21 AP report claimed test(s) “prior to Prince’s death” did not detect Fentanyl.

-

Counterfeit Prescription Pills Containing Fentanyls: A Global Threat (DEA report: 7/22/2016): https://www.dea.gov/docs/...0Pills.pdf

-
Key points

• Hundreds of thousands of deadly fentanyl-laced counterfeit pills made to look like other prescription opioids have flooded the U.S. drug black-market this year, causing a number of fatal ODs
• Some counterfeit opioid pills have been found to contain powerful synthetic opioid U-47700
• The fentanyl is indentifiable in the pills via lab analysis (the pills aren't visually distinct)

-

Naloxone (Narcan) use and effects: Drug is an “antidote” to opioid overdoses
https://www.drugs.com/naloxone.html

-

Suboxone (buprenorphine/naloxone) treatment: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.g.../NBK64246/
Key point: "A patient should no longer be intoxicated or have any residual opioid effect from his or her last dose of opioid before receiving a first dose of buprenorphine."
Relevant because: Suboxone was the treatment Dr. Kornfeld was allegedly going to begin with Prince on April 21. If so, Prince might have had to be tested for opioids in his system prior to starting treatment.

-

Minnesota statutes: Laws covering things like autopsies, death certificates, murder conviction requirements, etc.
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/

THANK YOU!! I was praying that you had saved this! Mine are filed but not in the cool report form like yours.

Thank you, zenarose and disch, for your hard work on this terrible tragedy. I think we are all grateful for your efforts.

Udo, one request:

-

Could you change the subject line to something more generic like:

Prince's Death: Information & Theories

-

That might make it clear to people to consolidate ALL their death-related discussions here, not just about that one fentanyl story. That would help with the scattered discussions that are hard to follow for those who are interested, and hard to avoid for those who are not.

disch said:

Udo, one request:

-

Could you change the subject line to something more generic like:

Prince's Death: Information & Theories

-

That might make it clear to people to consolidate ALL their death-related discussions here, not just about that one fentanyl story. That would help with the scattered discussions that are hard to follow for those who are interested, and hard to avoid for those who are not.

Good call.

Centers For Disease Control And Prevention — Current Trends Operational Criteria for Determining Suicide:

“...[A] working group representing coroners, medical examiners, statisticians, and public health agencies* developed operational criteria to assist coroners and medical examiners in determining suicide. Following are the working group's findings...

---

CRITERIA FOR DETERMINING SUICIDE

Self-Inflicted: There is evidence that death was self-inflicted. This may be determined by pathologic (autopsy), toxicologic, investigatory, and psychologic evidence and by statements of the decedent or witnesses.

Intent: There is evidence (explicit and/or implicit) that, at the time of injury, the decedent intended to kill himself/herself or wished to die and that the decedent understood the probable consequences of his/her actions. This evidence may include:

• Explicit verbal or nonverbal expression of intent to kill self;
  
  
• Implicit or indirect evidence of intent to die, such as
  
  
  • preparations for death inappropriate to or unexpected in the context of the decedent's life
    
    
  • expression of farewell or the desire to die or an acknowledgment of impending death
    
    
  • expression of hopelessness
    
    
  • expression of great emotional or physical pain or distress
    
    
  • effort to procure or learn about means of death or to rehearse fatal behavior
    
    
  • precautions to avoid rescue
    
    
  • evidence that decedent recognized high potential lethality of means of death
    
    
  • previous suicide attempt, previous suicide threat
    
    
  • stressful events or significant losses (actual or threatened), or serious depression or mental disorder...”
  
  
  

In other words, as TopazGirl's extraordinarily insightful post already pointed out, the Medical Examiner would have brought to bear, the weight of her education — her years of experience as a practicing pathologist — the investigative expertise of her law enforcement colleagues — and her expert command of logic — to analyze all of the points under the the Implicit or indirect evidence of intent to die list above to conclusively rule out suicide.

I would bet money that the fans who are nursing their suicide fixation, have none of those skills and expertise that Dr. A. Strobl has in spades.

phatphuk said:

---

Centers For Disease Control And Prevention — Current Trends Operational Criteria for Determining Suicide:

“...[A] working group representing coroners, medical examiners, statisticians, and public health agencies* developed operational criteria to assist coroners and medical examiners in determining suicide. Following are the working group's findings...

---

CRITERIA FOR DETERMINING SUICIDE

Self-Inflicted: There is evidence that death was self-inflicted. This may be determined by pathologic (autopsy), toxicologic, investigatory, and psychologic evidence and by statements of the decedent or witnesses.

Intent: There is evidence (explicit and/or implicit) that, at the time of injury, the decedent intended to kill himself/herself or wished to die and that the decedent understood the probable consequences of his/her actions. This evidence may include:

• Explicit verbal or nonverbal expression of intent to kill self;
  
  
• Implicit or indirect evidence of intent to die, such as
  
  
  • preparations for death inappropriate to or unexpected in the context of the decedent's life
    
    
  • expression of farewell or the desire to die or an acknowledgment of impending death
    
    
  • expression of hopelessness
    
    
  • expression of great emotional or physical pain or distress
    
    
  • effort to procure or learn about means of death or to rehearse fatal behavior
    
    
  • precautions to avoid rescue
    
    
  • evidence that decedent recognized high potential lethality of means of death
    
    
  • previous suicide attempt, previous suicide threat
    
    
  • stressful events or significant losses (actual or threatened), or serious depression or mental disorder...”
  
  
  

---

In other words, as TopazGirl's extraordinarily insightful post already pointed out, the Medical Examiner would have brought to bear, the weight of her education — her years of experience as a practicing pathologist — the investigative expertise of her law enforcement colleagues — and her expert command of logic — to analyze all of the points under the the Implicit or indirect evidence of intent to die list above to conclusively rule out suicide.

I would bet money that the fans who are nursing their suicide fixation, have none of those skills and expertise that Dr. A. Strobl has in spades.

This is information that came from the Estate topic. Interpret it as you will but I see it as a man who knew he was dying and found a way to protect his music without a will.

----

There is a crazy man named Rodney Dixion who claims he has power of attorney over all of Prince’s music. Now he has crazy ass documents in his claim most of which is total nonsense however he has pulled some information from the copyright office that explains how Prince made sure his music would not be affected by the Probate process. Please see the Estate 4 topic to see all of the great people who pulled this together.

See the link below. See Exhibit A, B, and E

http://www.mncourts.gov/m...randum.pdf

Exhibit A is an 'exclusive songwriter agreement' dated April 2014 in which Prince assigns all copyright to NPG Music ( Prince's own company). As this is around the time Prince announced getting his masters back from WB , this must have been part of the business side of getting this all set up.

Exhibit B is a copyright form (public document) registering all 965 songs to NPG music. Dated Feb 4 2016. so recent! As 965 sounds about right in terms of the total number of songs Prince had registered, this seems to be about him changing the registration from his own name to NPG as the copyright owner, I guess aligning it all to the new agreement with NPG.

Exhibit E is a public document recording that NPG Music Publishing is being set up as an LLC in California, dated march 2014.

It would appear that the LLC owns the songs and I would bet money that Prince’s siblings are the shareholders. This would mean that the songs will not be affected by whatever happens to the estate. I believe he saw the foolishness with his Dad’s estate and found a why to get around the courts and protect his music.

Let’s discuss and think about how he did all this two years ago right around the time he told his sister he was done.

More and more, late 2013 into 2014 seems to be the pivotal point in Prince's life when something happened to cause him to put some of his affairs in order. There certainly was a great deal of activity behind the scenes.

Yes, 2014 was the year his decade+ struggle with Warner Brothers cultimated in him getting his masters back. This big development in the "business" side of his career that would naturally lead to a series of other business changes.

1Sasha said:

More and more, late 2013 into 2014 seems to be the pivotal point in Prince's life when something happened to cause him to put some of his affairs in order. There certainly was a great deal of activity behind the scenes.

disch said:

sonshine said:

disch said:

Here is what I've saved; updated with recent reputable links.

Prince autopsy summary report (6/2/2016)
http://www.anokacounty.us...View/10066
Key points (report signed by Chief Medical Examiner Dr. A. Quinn Strobl)

• Manner of death: “Accident”
• Cause of death: “fentanyl toxicity”
• How injury occurred: “the decedent self-administered fentanyl”
• Other significant conditions: “na” Email from the ME’s office to Disch explaining this field: “All other important diseases, conditions, or risk factors that were present at the time of death or pre-existed in the deceased and that may have contributed to the death or event of death (if a traumatic or toxic death) may be listed in the other significant conditions section.”
• Scars & amputations: “Scar, left hip; scar, right lower leg”

-

Prince death certificate ("record of death") (6/2/2016)
http://rollingout.com/wp-...60x742.jpg
-

Key articles (from reputable sources only – no tabloids, gossip sites, obscure blogs)

-

ET (10/5/2016): Prince's Sister Tyka Nelson Says She Knew His Death Was Coming: 'I've Been Preparing for Two Years'
http://www.etonline.com/n...two_years/
-
Key points (quotes from Tyka Nelson):

• “"It wasn't hard at all," Nelson said about coming to grips with Prince's death. "It was a two-word phone call: 'He's gone.' And I knew who he meant. I hung up the phone. An employee of Prince called. I have been preparing for two years, so I knew that it was coming."
• "He said it a couple of years ago: 'I've done everything that I've come to do.’ I was crushed for about two years.… I've had two years to deal with it, but there's a lot of people that have only had from April to now, so I guess I would say give it another year and a half and maybe you'll be where I'm at."

-

AP (10/3/2016): Official: Prince probe focuses on doctors, black market
http://bigstory.ap.org/ar...ack-market
-
Key point: Investigators are probing whether doctors illegally prescribed opioids meant for the pop star and whether the fentanyl that killed him came from a black-market source, a law enforcement official said.

-
AP (8/21/2016): Official: Pills found at Prince's estate contained fentanyl
http://bigstory.ap.org/ar...d-fentanyl

-

Key points (all alleged from unnamed "officials")

• Counterfeit prescription opioid pills were found at Paisley Park. Most were in bottles of aspirin and Vitamin C inside a suitcase and bags — including one Prince often carried with him.
• Nearly two dozen pills in an Aleve bottle were falsely labeled "Watson 385." Acetaminophen/hydrocodone pills (e.g., Vicodin) used to legitimately carry that label, but at least one of the pills tested positive for fentanyl.
• Some pills also contained lidocaine and U-47700 — a synthetic opioid that is eight times more powerful than morphine.
• Some of these pills were with Prince on his April 15 flight
• Prior to his death, Prince tested negative for fentanyl, which means he wasn't a long-time abuser of that drug, but likely took the fatal dose within the 24 hours before he died (author couldn’t verify when the “prior” drug test(s) occurred but referenced Dr. Shulenberg’s alleged April 20 and April 7 medical tests on Prince)
• The autopsy report also shows Prince had diazepam (Valium), lidocaine and hydrocodone acids in his body
• Prince had no prescription for any controlled substances in the state of Minnesota in the 12 months before he died

-

StarTribune (8/21/2016): Pills seized from Paisley Park contained illicit fentanyl, same drug that killed Prince
http://www.startribune.com/pills-seized-from-paisley-park-contained-illicit-fentanyl-same-drug-that-killed-prince/390816101/

-

Key points (unless otherwise noted, all from "sources with knowledge of the investigation")

• Amount of fentanyl in Prince's system was so great, no one could have survived it
• Prince's clothes were on backward and his socks were inside-out
• "A DEA spokesman said last week that investigators working the Prince case “haven’t assigned a time limit” on their work, adding that it will be “ongoing and will be thorough.””
• Per Jason Kamerud, chief deputy of the Carver County Sheriff’s Office: At present, no one in Carver County is dedicated to the investigation full time.

-

NYTimes (6/21/2016): I Was on That Fateful Flight With Prince: A Protégée Tells Her Story
http://www.nytimes.com/20....html?_r=0

-

Key points (all alleged by Judith Hill)

• Prince's "eyes fixed" and he "nodded off" in front of Hill on the April 15 private-plane ride that made an emergency landing in Moline, Illinois.
• Prince was revived on the tarmac with a Narcan shot (source of this info not identified)
• Hill had never seen Prince in physical pain, and the plane incident was the first time she'd seen him in distress. She declined to discuss the details of his hospital treatment.
• Prince was "serious about getting help.” Once back in Minn., he had tests with Dr. Michael Shulenberg, the local family physician he allegedly had seen at least several times prior, "because he was concerned, and he wanted to do the right thing for his own body.”
• Prince told Hill: “'I had to fight for my life'" and "he said it was the hardest thing he’d ever done, to get back into his body like that."

-

CNN (6/3/3016): Man who found Prince: 'Nothing can prepare' you
http://www.cnn.com/2016/0...-kornfeld/

-
Key point: Andrew Kornfeld, the son of the California addiction- and pain-management specialist Dr. Howard Kornfeld that Prince’s associate had allegedly contacted the day before, says he made the 911 call because the others there (reportedly staffers Meron Bekure and Kirk Johnson) were too distraught

-

StarTribune (6/2/2016): Timeline of Prince's Final Days
http://www.startribune.co...381731991/

-

Key points (no sources specified)

• On April 7, the day Prince canceled his Atlanta concerts because of "flu," he saw Dr. Shulenberg
• On April 16, Prince threw a last-minute Paisley Park dance party and appeared briefly, telling the crowd to “wait a few days” before offering any prayers.
• On April 19, Prince attended a concert at the Dakota, the last time he was seen in public
• On April 20, Dr. Howard Kornfeld was contacted but couldn't clear his schedule so he sent his son Andrew on a night flight to MPLS instead

-

StarTribune (5/21/2016): Prince Likely Dead for Hours As Picture of His Last Days Takes Shape
http://www.startribune.co...380338131/

-

Key points (all alleged from "sources with knowledge of the investigation")

• Prince had been receiving medical treatment for withdrawal symptoms in the weeks prior to his death
• Prince had grown "increasingly agitated" in the days after the April 15 plane incident
• A staff member called an unnamed Prince associate in NY at 6am on April 20 for advice
• Prince’s associate(s) then reached out to Prince associate Phaedra Ellis-Lamkins in California, who contacted Dr. Kornfeld on the afternoon of April 20
• Prince received an intravenous treatment at a hospital on April 20
• When Howard Kornfeld’s son Andrew arrived at Paisley Park on April 21, he was carrying Suboxone, a drug used to help ease opioid withdrawal, which he was not legally permitted to administer.
• Dr. Shulenberg arrived on the scene after the paramedics were there, to deliver test results.

-

CNN (5/17/2016): What Prince's bodyguard has to say about Prince, pain and addiction
http://www.cnn.com/2016/0...rd-speaks/

-
Key point: Bodyguard Chris Gaither says he "never saw anything" that pointed to a dependency, despite packing Prince's bags "daily" and going on tour with him

-

NYTimes (5/5/2016): Prince’s Addiction and an Intervention Too Late
http://www.nytimes.com/20...-says.html

-

Key points (all from unnamed sources unless otherwise noted)

• Prince was "surprisingly autonomous," often making his own appointments without his assistant’s knowledge
• Dr. Kornfeld's lawyer says the plan was to "get Prince stabilized" in Minnesota then convince him to go to California for treatment. Dr. Kornfeld had allegedly arranged for an unnamed doctor in MPLS to “clear his schedule” the morning of April 21 to meet with Prince.
• "Prince began taking painkillers for his ailment years ago and ultimately decided to have hip surgery in the mid-2000s, after which he was prescribed more pain medicine, according to a person who worked with him"
• "Concerned friends said they had recently been discussing Prince’s emotional state. He had told some people that he was feeling depressed, and some suspected he was going through a period of professional stagnancy....Others said they did not detect any depression."
• He had reassured numerous friends after the plane incident that he was fine, but unnamed friends decided that they needed to intervene
• On "April 18, Ms. Lawler-Freas, the Atlanta promoter, said that Prince’s representatives told her to hold off on confirming the eight tour dates she had arranged for him. He was going to take a break that week."
• According to Dr. Funkenberry, if you abused drugs, “you weren’t going to work with [Prince]. You didn’t have a job.”

-

StarTribune (5/4/2016): Prince died amid frantic plans for drug addiction treatment

http://www.startribune.co...378051471/

-
Key points (mostly attributed to William Mauzy, the criminal defense attorney hired to represent the Kornfelds)

• After he was first contacted by Prince’s representatives on “the night of ” April 20, Dr. Kornfeld requested that a Twin Cities physician check on Prince and stabilize him, sources said.
• Prince’s representatives called Dr. Kornfeld because of his reputation as a nationally known addiction researcher, Mauzy said, and because they felt Prince “was dealing with a grave medical emergency.”
• Andrew Kornfeld never administered the Suboxone that he brought with him to Paisley Park, Mauzy said.

-

AP (5/1/2016): Longtime chef: Prince fought throat, stomach pains recently
http://bigstory.ap.org/ar...s-recently

-

Key points:

• "In recent months, [chef Ray] Roberts said, Prince would have sore throats or seem like he wasn't feeling well for "weeks at a time."
• Prince has been "eating less and drinking less water, and looked like he was losing weight."
• Regarding overdose/drug use: According to Chef, "that wasn't the man he saw nearly every night, "not even a hint. Not at all.""

-

Background material

-

Death certificate guidelines (CDC): https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/...hb_cod.pdf
Rules from the CDC for how authorities should fill out a death certificate's fields

-

Fentanyl half-life and detection: http://mentalhealthdaily....ur-system/
Key point: Fentanyl is detectable in blood for up to 4 days after ingestion, and in hair possibly for months
Relevant because: The 8/21 AP report claimed test(s) “prior to Prince’s death” did not detect Fentanyl.

-

Counterfeit Prescription Pills Containing Fentanyls: A Global Threat (DEA report: 7/22/2016): https://www.dea.gov/docs/...0Pills.pdf

-
Key points

• Hundreds of thousands of deadly fentanyl-laced counterfeit pills made to look like other prescription opioids have flooded the U.S. drug black-market this year, causing a number of fatal ODs
• Some counterfeit opioid pills have been found to contain powerful synthetic opioid U-47700
• The fentanyl is indentifiable in the pills via lab analysis (the pills aren't visually distinct)

-

Naloxone (Narcan) use and effects: Drug is an “antidote” to opioid overdoses
https://www.drugs.com/naloxone.html

-

Suboxone (buprenorphine/naloxone) treatment: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.g.../NBK64246/
Key point: "A patient should no longer be intoxicated or have any residual opioid effect from his or her last dose of opioid before receiving a first dose of buprenorphine."
Relevant because: Suboxone was the treatment Dr. Kornfeld was allegedly going to begin with Prince on April 21. If so, Prince might have had to be tested for opioids in his system prior to starting treatment.

-

Minnesota statutes: Laws covering things like autopsies, death certificates, murder conviction requirements, etc.
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/

Gosh it was painful reviewing all this info but I'm more sure than ever that things are exactly as they have been officially reported. Prince has been self medicating for years and he most likely unwittingly took a laced pill while help was mere hours away. Tragic on so many levels. More tears today. His great legacy will live on despite the circumstances of his passing. So sorry for his suffering. RIP P. You are missed.

No one ever said the official reports are wrong. We are saying he was hooked on those pain meds because he was in pain from a medical issue. He did not know he was going to overdose two years ahead of time and he did have plans going out to August so I don't think he wanted to kill himself.

phatphuk said:

---

Centers For Disease Control And Prevention — Current Trends Operational Criteria for Determining Suicide:

“...[A] working group representing coroners, medical examiners, statisticians, and public health agencies* developed operational criteria to assist coroners and medical examiners in determining suicide. Following are the working group's findings...

---

CRITERIA FOR DETERMINING SUICIDE

Self-Inflicted: There is evidence that death was self-inflicted. This may be determined by pathologic (autopsy), toxicologic, investigatory, and psychologic evidence and by statements of the decedent or witnesses.

Intent: There is evidence (explicit and/or implicit) that, at the time of injury, the decedent intended to kill himself/herself or wished to die and that the decedent understood the probable consequences of his/her actions. This evidence may include:

• Explicit verbal or nonverbal expression of intent to kill self;
  
  
• Implicit or indirect evidence of intent to die, such as
  
  
  • preparations for death inappropriate to or unexpected in the context of the decedent's life
    
    
  • expression of farewell or the desire to die or an acknowledgment of impending death
    
    
  • expression of hopelessness
    
    
  • expression of great emotional or physical pain or distress
    
    
  • effort to procure or learn about means of death or to rehearse fatal behavior
    
    
  • precautions to avoid rescue
    
    
  • evidence that decedent recognized high potential lethality of means of death
    
    
  • previous suicide attempt, previous suicide threat
    
    
  • stressful events or significant losses (actual or threatened), or serious depression or mental disorder...”
  
  
  

---

In other words, as TopazGirl's extraordinarily insightful post already pointed out, the Medical Examiner would have brought to bear, the weight of her education — her years of experience as a practicing pathologist — the investigative expertise of her law enforcement colleagues — and her expert command of logic — to analyze all of the points under the the Implicit or indirect evidence of intent to die list above to conclusively rule out suicide.

I would bet money that the fans who are nursing their suicide fixation, have none of those skills and expertise that Dr. A. Strobl has in spades.

She didn't know Prince though (probably one of the most private celebrities ever to have lived) and neither did most, if not all, of his closest company. That's the point, there's just too much conjecture here to know anything for certain.

She was doing inductive reasoning, which is supposition.

Withdrawal from opiates by all accounts is horrible, and people going through it don't see light at the end of the tunnel. There's no saying how bad he felt in those final hours, or even weeks, and there is no way the medical examiner can know enough to conclusively rule suicide out.

fortuneandserendipity said:

phatphuk said:

---

---

In other words, as TopazGirl's extraordinarily insightful post already pointed out, the Medical Examiner would have brought to bear, the weight of her education — her years of experience as a practicing pathologist — the investigative expertise of her law enforcement colleagues — and her expert command of logic — to analyze all of the points under the the Implicit or indirect evidence of intent to die list above to conclusively rule out suicide.

I would bet money that the fans who are nursing their suicide fixation, have none of those skills and expertise that Dr. A. Strobl has in spades.

She didn't know Prince though (probably one of the most private celebrities ever to have lived) and neither did most, if not all, of his closest company. That's the point, there's just too much conjecture here to know anything for certain.

She was doing inductive reasoning, which is supposition.

Withdrawal from opiates by all accounts is horrible, and people going through it don't see light at the end of the tunnel. There's no saying how bad he felt in those final hours, or even weeks, and there is no way the medical examiner can know enough to conclusively rule suicide out.

I just want to give a shout-out to the Mods and everyone here who are all working together; researching & gathering information. I appreicate everyone's good intentions and efforts. This really is the only place we can come to, to share our thoughts and mourn the loss of our beloved Prince. Heartfelt "Thanks" and....Peace & Love, Peace & Love!!

Fortuneandserendipity said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

phatphuk said:

---

Centers For Disease Control And Prevention — Current Trends Operational Criteria for Determining Suicide:

“...[A] working group representing coroners, medical examiners, statisticians, and public health agencies* developed operational criteria to assist coroners and medical examiners in determining suicide. Following are the working group's findings...

---

CRITERIA FOR DETERMINING SUICIDE

Self-Inflicted: There is evidence that death was self-inflicted. This may be determined by pathologic (autopsy), toxicologic, investigatory, and psychologic evidence and by statements of the decedent or witnesses.

Intent: There is evidence (explicit and/or implicit) that, at the time of injury, the decedent intended to kill himself/herself or wished to die and that the decedent understood the probable consequences of his/her actions. This evidence may include:

• Explicit verbal or nonverbal expression of intent to kill self;
  
  
• Implicit or indirect evidence of intent to die, such as
  
  
  • preparations for death inappropriate to or unexpected in the context of the decedent's life
    
    
  • expression of farewell or the desire to die or an acknowledgment of impending death
    
    
  • expression of hopelessness
    
    
  • expression of great emotional or physical pain or distress
    
    
  • effort to procure or learn about means of death or to rehearse fatal behavior
    
    
  • precautions to avoid rescue
    
    
  • evidence that decedent recognized high potential lethality of means of death
    
    
  • previous suicide attempt, previous suicide threat
    
    
  • stressful events or significant losses (actual or threatened), or serious depression or mental disorder...”
  
  
  

---

"...In other words, as TopazGirl's extraordinarily insightful post already pointed out, the Medical Examiner would have brought to bear, the weight of her education — her years of experience as a practicing pathologist — the investigative expertise of her law enforcement colleagues — and her expert command of logic — to analyze all of the points under the the Implicit or indirect evidence of intent to die list above to conclusively rule out suicide...

...I would bet money that the fans who are nursing their suicide fixation, have none of those skills and expertise that Dr. A. Strobl has in spades..."

"...She didn't know Prince though (probably one of the most private celebrities ever to have lived) and neither did most, if not all, of his closest company. That's the point, there's just too much conjecture here to know anything for certain...

...She was doing inductive reasoning, which is supposition...

...Withdrawal from opiates by all accounts is horrible, and people going through it don't see light at the end of the tunnel. There's no saying how bad he felt in those final hours, or even weeks, and there is no way the medical examiner can know enough to conclusively rule suicide out..."

You say "the Medical Examiner doesn't know Prince", as if you do know Prince yourself, fortuneandserendipity. Do you know Prince?

A Medical Examiner no more needs to have had a personal relationship with the decedants they examine than a judge needs to have a personal relationship with the defendants they try in court.

In both professions, both professionals arrive at their learned conclusions by bringing to bear the weight of several years of education, several years of professional experience, the collective body of knowledge within their field of expertise, together with input from their expert colleagues.

I personally put more stock into the conclusions of a highly-skilled professional pathologist who has access to the evidence {the decedants corspe} and who is privy to all of the details of the investigation, before I would take seriously the imagination of some anonymous internet forum poster whose only credentials is, they know every Prince lyric by heart.

Buy Hey! To each his own. You're still an animated gif genius, par excellence, in my eyes ;¬)

...In fact, fortuneandserendipity, it is that very absense of a personal relationship with Prince that gives the ME's conclusion more scientific credibility. It's called Objectivity

If one of prince.org's rabid Prince fans were to do Prince's autopsy, their conclusion would be too Subjective. Because they would let their emotions for Prince cancel out the objective, scientific analysis that is encumbant upon medical examiners.

phatphuk said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

"...She didn't know Prince though (probably one of the most private celebrities ever to have lived) and neither did most, if not all, of his closest company. That's the point, there's just too much conjecture here to know anything for certain...

...She was doing inductive reasoning, which is supposition...

...Withdrawal from opiates by all accounts is horrible, and people going through it don't see light at the end of the tunnel. There's no saying how bad he felt in those final hours, or even weeks, and there is no way the medical examiner can know enough to conclusively rule suicide out..."

You say "the Medical Examiner doesn't know Prince", as if you do know Prince yourself, fortuneandserendipity. Do you know Prince?

A Medical Examiner no more needs to have had a personal relationship with the decedants they examine than a judge needs to have a personal relationship with the defendants they try in court.

In both professions, both professionals arrive at their learned conclusions by bringing to bear the weight of several years of education, several years of professional experience, the collective body of knowledge within their field of expertise, together with input from their expert colleagues.

I personally put more stock into the conclusions of a highly-skilled professional pathologist who has access to the evidence {the decedants corspe} and who is privy to all of the details of the investigation, before I would take seriously the imagination of some anonymous internet forum poster whose only credentials is, they know every Prince lyric by heart.

Buy Hey! To each his own. You're still an animated gif genius, par excellence, in my eyes ;¬)

With regard to ME not having prior inside knowledge of P, that's exactly what bothers me esp. in light of her definitive conclusion. It's her opinion only, and it stands for all time or until such time as full autopsy gets released. And that may give different picture. For instance, what if there were a cocktail of different substances, as has been conjectured, and these drug interactions make him psychotic and potentially suicidal? Just saying, but it has happened to people before.

phatphuk said:

...In fact, fortuneandserendipity, it is that very absense of a personal relationship with Prince that gives the ME's conclusion more scientific credibility. It's called Objectivity

If one of prince.org's rabid Prince fans were to do Prince's autopsy, their conclusion would be too Subjective. Because they would let their emotions for Prince cancel out the objective, scientific analysis that is encumbant upon medical examiners.

I still believe her conclusion was reductionist, because she could have listed other substances if they played toxic role (U4470 for instance). Maybe Minnesotan law prescribes the simplistic conclusion, as someone on here mentioned.

laurarichardson said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

phatphuk said:

"...In fact, fortuneandserendipity, it is that very absense of a personal relationship with Prince that gives the ME's conclusion more scientific credibility. It's called Objectivity...

...If one of prince.org's rabid Prince fans were to do Prince's autopsy, their conclusion would be too Subjective. Because they would let their emotions for Prince cancel out the objective, scientific analysis that is encumbant upon medical examiners..."

...I still believe her conclusion was reductionist, because she could have listed other substances if they played toxic role (U4470 for instance). Maybe Minnesotan law prescribes the simplistic conclusion, as someone on here mentioned..."

"as someone on here mentioned" — Is that the same "someone" who believes that their own interpretation of Prince's lyrics is The One And Only True Interpretation™ officially sanctioned and personally blessed by Prince himself?

Or is it the same "someone" who struggles with understanding basic constructs and common idioms of the English language?

C'mon dude! HaHaHaHaHa. I'd believe the characters in your side-splitting animated gifs before I'd believe anything from either of them.