RiotPaisley said:

I wouldn't suggest that was why HE didn't put that song out but I would bet someone at Warners was like "Noooope! You push the envelope enough as it is. Sister!?!" Maybe he figured out nuance at that point. I mean what's really going on in Lady Cab Driver? She's not screaming no stop but he is really "giving it to her" Saying "don't make me rape you"... That's a totally dumb "high school" boy thing to say. It really is. And that doesn't excuse it but I bet someone along the line set him straight on saying crap like that. Denise perhaps?

I laughed at the first part. Even if he did sequence the song for 1999, I agree someone along the line would have told him it was a bad idea. After all, Prince is racy, and not above high school boy come-ons, but he's not The Scorpions and probably too smart and commercially-minded to get his album boycotted or repealed (unless he's the one doing the repealing). Then again, this was the same guy who unwittingly provoked parental warnings...

The monologue in "Lady Cab Driver" still sounds unsettling to me after a trillion listens, and as far as I'm concerned that's what makes it great art.

I still at the 'I'm not that popular yet" part. The rape part, kinda scary sounding but at the same time I agree maybe tongue and cheek.

EddieC said:

I'm not a woman, so my view is probably not important for this thread (for the record, I think the loss of the offending passage is the only way in which the later versions are preferable to the original)--but I do want to bring up another reference in a different outtake. Now, sometimes Extralovable is said to have been considered for Vanity 6, but it's hard for me to see that as that likely (at least not when he was recording it) because the outtake just plain doesn't sound like it, with the various band related asides (Hey Dez?) and the talk, but maybe... But he does use "rape" in another song that always seemed to be intended for a girl to sing, although it's not present in the released version. Both the Rebels version and the later Prince vocal version of U include the line "You drive a girl to rape, you know you do" (in the original it rhymes with "all the girls go ape for you," but that's gone before the second version). Paula Abdul's version doesn't have the line, but Prince's still using it in 1987 suggests that he still didn't see anything wrong with it. How do you feel about this use of the idea of saying "I want to rape you" to mean "you're attractive" when it's done by a woman to a man? Does that change things?

Why don't you ask the staff at one of the many liberal websites who are foaming at the mouth over the slap-on-the-wrist sentence handed down to one-time male rapist Brock Turner but totally ignoring the story of Alexandria Vera, who statutorily raped her 13 year-old student almost every day for months on end and terminated her preganancy so she wouldn't be found out? Two stories from the same week. Liberals are condemning the lenient six month (more like three month) prison sentence for Turner and demanding the judge's resignation (I agree he made a bad call), but coverage of Vera has been scant, with very few outlets calling her a rapist or a pedophile. But if a male was caught pursuing a 13 year-old? There are whole tv shows based around "catching" these men and labelling them "predators." Double standards cut both ways.

EddieC said:

CROWNS1 said:

mtlfan said:

RiotPaisley said:

EddieC said:

I'm not a woman, so my view is probably not important for this thread (for the record, I think the loss of the offending passage is the only way in which the later versions are preferable to the original)--but I do want to bring up another reference in a different outtake. Now, sometimes Extralovable is said to have been considered for Vanity 6, but it's hard for me to see that as that likely (at least not when he was recording it) because the outtake just plain doesn't sound like it, with the various band related asides (Hey Dez?) and the talk, but maybe... But he does use "rape" in another song that always seemed to be intended for a girl to sing, although it's not present in the released version. Both the Rebels version and the later Prince vocal version of U include the line "You drive a girl to rape, you know you do" (in the original it rhymes with "all the girls go ape for you," but that's gone before the second version). Paula Abdul's version doesn't have the line, but Prince's still using it in 1987 suggests that he still didn't see anything wrong with it. How do you feel about this use of the idea of saying "I want to rape you" to mean "you're attractive" when it's done by a woman to a man? Does that change things?

I don't really think it does. It's kind of a stupid statement if you ask me. Why would anyone want to have non-consensual sex with anyone? If a woman says oh I want to rape you and a guy says oh ok! Then it's not really rape. If she says that and he says no and she does it anyway- it's rape. Rape means not getting consent, it does not mean oh you're hot. That's why to me it was a younger Prince trying to cross lines of sexuality, he made a mistake with that one. He thinks, "I've covered sex, lesbianism, incest, jerking off... Let's try rape. Oh no bad idea- let's pretend we're married." If you like to be dominated or like to dominate, those are different words altogether. Rape has to mean "I did not give consent" and only "I did not give consent" because women have a real hard time proving they were raped because of that kind of stuff. Does that make sense? [Edited 6/9/16 19:48pm]

The conversation about consent needs to continue because we've been conditioned to believe that extreme desire and appearance override an individual's consent when in fact they never should.

mtlfan said:

EddieC said:

I'm not a woman, so my view is probably not important for this thread (for the record, I think the loss of the offending passage is the only way in which the later versions are preferable to the original)--but I do want to bring up another reference in a different outtake. Now, sometimes Extralovable is said to have been considered for Vanity 6, but it's hard for me to see that as that likely (at least not when he was recording it) because the outtake just plain doesn't sound like it, with the various band related asides (Hey Dez?) and the talk, but maybe... But he does use "rape" in another song that always seemed to be intended for a girl to sing, although it's not present in the released version. Both the Rebels version and the later Prince vocal version of U include the line "You drive a girl to rape, you know you do" (in the original it rhymes with "all the girls go ape for you," but that's gone before the second version). Paula Abdul's version doesn't have the line, but Prince's still using it in 1987 suggests that he still didn't see anything wrong with it. How do you feel about this use of the idea of saying "I want to rape you" to mean "you're attractive" when it's done by a woman to a man? Does that change things?

Why don't you ask the staff at one of the many liberal websites who are foaming at the mouth over the slap-on-the-wrist sentence handed down to one-time male rapist Brock Turner but totally ignoring the story of Alexandria Vera, who statutorily raped her 13 year-old student almost every day for months on end and terminated her preganancy so she wouldn't be found out? Two stories from the same week. Liberals are condemning the lenient six month (more like three month) prison sentence for Turner and demanding the judge's resignation (I agree he made a bad call), but coverage of Vera has been scant, with very few outlets calling her a rapist or a pedophile. But if a male was caught pursuing a 13 year-old? There are whole tv shows based around "catching" these men and labelling them "predators." Double standards cut both ways.

Why don't I ask them? Because they don't know Prince's work, and couldn't give me an answer that I'd care about. Just like I don't care, here, in this context about anything you're saying in this post. Because I was asking people who care about Prince's music about his use of the concept of rape in a particular way in some unreleased songs (in a thread already about that subject), not asking you (or anyone else) about the week's current clickbait outrage stories or anyone's kneejerk reactions to them (or their well-thought out reactions either, honestly). But, you know--have fun on your horse, and ride it as long as you want. I assume it gives you joy. (OH--and there's probably a P&R thread on one or the other of these dirtbag stories, if you really feel anyone cares what you have to say about them. Or you could start one).

RiotPaisley said:

EddieC said:

I'm not a woman, so my view is probably not important for this thread (for the record, I think the loss of the offending passage is the only way in which the later versions are preferable to the original)--but I do want to bring up another reference in a different outtake. Now, sometimes Extralovable is said to have been considered for Vanity 6, but it's hard for me to see that as that likely (at least not when he was recording it) because the outtake just plain doesn't sound like it, with the various band related asides (Hey Dez?) and the talk, but maybe... But he does use "rape" in another song that always seemed to be intended for a girl to sing, although it's not present in the released version. Both the Rebels version and the later Prince vocal version of U include the line "You drive a girl to rape, you know you do" (in the original it rhymes with "all the girls go ape for you," but that's gone before the second version). Paula Abdul's version doesn't have the line, but Prince's still using it in 1987 suggests that he still didn't see anything wrong with it. How do you feel about this use of the idea of saying "I want to rape you" to mean "you're attractive" when it's done by a woman to a man? Does that change things?

I don't really think it does. It's kind of a stupid statement if you ask me. Why would anyone want to have non-consensual sex with anyone? If a woman says oh I want to rape you and a guy says oh ok! Then it's not really rape. If she says that and he says no and she does it anyway- it's rape. Rape means not getting consent, it does not mean oh you're hot. That's why to me it was a younger Prince trying to cross lines of sexuality, he made a mistake with that one. He thinks, "I've covered sex, lesbianism, incest, jerking off... Let's try rape. Oh no bad idea- let's pretend we're married." If you like to be dominated or like to dominate, those are different words altogether. Rape has to mean "I did not give consent" and only "I did not give consent" because women have a real hard time proving they were raped because of that kind of stuff. Does that make sense? [Edited 6/9/16 19:48pm]

Mostly true. But have you heard of giantess fetishists? These are guys who literally want to have sex with a giant woman. How about the "paranormal romance" subgenre? Lots of girls out there who get turned on by werewolves and vampires. These are impossible fantasies - just like consenting to rape. There are people out there who fantasize about being raped, even though they can't technically consent to rape if it were to happen. Moreover, this usually stays in the realm of fantasy, and if they were to be raped the reality would likely conflict with the fantasy. Why do they have this fantasy? Who knows. I don't know why people want to wear diapers and act like babies when they have sex, but diaper fetishists are out there and I doubt it's my place to judge them.

My point is, for a while Prince built his career around appealing to every sexual fantasy going. Bestiality? Not exactly, but enough lyrics about horny ponies and scarlet pussies to satisfy the furry community. Pedophilia? No songs about child molestation, but plenty of lyrics that talk about playground hormones, and envelope-pushing raps about hooking up with sixteen year-olds. Rape? He had the Game Boyz assaulting him on stage. Think of him like the closest thing pop music had to an erotic author - maybe he felt compelled to do it all because someone out there would be turned on. Moreover, when he sings "I'm sorry, I'm going to have to rape you," he sounds like a zombie. Maybe not "tongue in cheek," but self-critical of his own lack of control. And at no point does he say in Extraloveable that it's okay to rape women, only that his character in this song that is both fictional (the dead father) and factual (the references to the band) is driven to do it.

I sometimes suspect material like Extraloveable 82 had something to do with his stubborn stance about internet sharing, especially in the wake of his religious conversion. Or maybe he just didn't want too many people seeing Grafitti Bridge.

EddieC said:

mtlfan said:

Why don't you ask the staff at one of the many liberal websites who are foaming at the mouth over the slap-on-the-wrist sentence handed down to one-time male rapist Brock Turner but totally ignoring the story of Alexandria Vera, who statutorily raped her 13 year-old student almost every day for months on end and terminated her preganancy so she wouldn't be found out? Two stories from the same week. Liberals are condemning the lenient six month (more like three month) prison sentence for Turner and demanding the judge's resignation (I agree he made a bad call), but coverage of Vera has been scant, with very few outlets calling her a rapist or a pedophile. But if a male was caught pursuing a 13 year-old? There are whole tv shows based around "catching" these men and labelling them "predators." Double standards cut both ways.

Why don't I ask them? Because they don't know Prince's work, and couldn't give me an answer that I'd care about. Just like I don't care, here, in this context about anything you're saying in this post. Because I was asking people who care about Prince's music about his use of the concept of rape in a particular way in some unreleased songs (in a thread already about that subject), not asking you (or anyone else) about the week's current clickbait outrage stories or anyone's kneejerk reactions to them (or their well-thought out reactions either, honestly). But, you know--have fun on your horse, and ride it as long as you want. I assume it gives you joy. (OH--and there's probably a P&R thread on one or the other of these dirtbag stories, if you really feel anyone cares what you have to say about them. Or you could start one).

You're right, I'm off topic. But it's not a horse I'm riding, EddieC, it's a horny pony.

I find that part extremely uncomfortable to listen to. I just skip it.

vuvuzela said:

RiotPaisley said:

EddieC said: I don't really think it does. It's kind of a stupid statement if you ask me. Why would anyone want to have non-consensual sex with anyone? If a woman says oh I want to rape you and a guy says oh ok! Then it's not really rape. If she says that and he says no and she does it anyway- it's rape. Rape means not getting consent, it does not mean oh you're hot. That's why to me it was a younger Prince trying to cross lines of sexuality, he made a mistake with that one. He thinks, "I've covered sex, lesbianism, incest, jerking off... Let's try rape. Oh no bad idea- let's pretend we're married." If you like to be dominated or like to dominate, those are different words altogether. Rape has to mean "I did not give consent" and only "I did not give consent" because women have a real hard time proving they were raped because of that kind of stuff. Does that make sense? [Edited 6/9/16 19:48pm]

The conversation about consent needs to continue because we've been conditioned to believe that extreme desire and appearance override an individual's consent when in fact they never should.

Thanks to both of you for actually answering my question. I had not noticed the line in U before until it popped up yesterday on shuffle. I was surprised that the idea appeared that late in P's work. I don't think he means any of these songs to actually refer to lack of consent--but that is what the word means, and I was surprised to see him still using it in that way (even with the gender switch) as late as 1987. I cringe every time I hear it in the other songs--it didn't have that strong a visceral effect for me when I heard it in "U," honestly--but probably because I've never, as a man, feared the possibility of the real thing happening to me. Luckily, it never got to release either way. As it is, it's just a fairly nondescript album track that most people probably never thought of twice. Thank you, whoever it was, who dropped the line from the released version.

RiotPaisley said:

mtlfan said:

Why don't you ask the staff at one of the many liberal websites who are foaming at the mouth over the slap-on-the-wrist sentence handed down to one-time male rapist Brock Turner but totally ignoring the story of Alexandria Vera, who statutorily raped her 13 year-old student almost every day for months on end and terminated her preganancy so she wouldn't be found out? Two stories from the same week. Liberals are condemning the lenient six month (more like three month) prison sentence for Turner and demanding the judge's resignation (I agree he made a bad call), but coverage of Vera has been scant, with very few outlets calling her a rapist or a pedophile. But if a male was caught pursuing a 13 year-old? There are whole tv shows based around "catching" these men and labelling them "predators." Double standards cut both ways.

I don't know the specifics of the Vera case but was the boy passed out behind a dumpster when she was having sex with him? Edit: just read the case and no she even met the kids parents!! Differnt situation- it's definitely not right and she should go to jail, but that wasn't "rape" it was "statutory rape"... There's a difference. The boy sounds like he willingly went along with this. Twisted as it is- the cases are apples to oranges. [Edited 6/9/16 19:56pm] [Edited 6/9/16 19:57pm]

Yeah, look, Turner's a scumbag. But under the law, 13 year-olds can't give consent (a lot of 13 year-old boys are anatomically pre-pubescent or only partially matured). I don't know if that applies if the parents give consent (what the fuck were they thinking). My point is, if a man did this, the media in 2016 wouldn't use phrases like "love affair" to describe what happened. Anyway, I'm OT again, I try to keep my posts on here about Prince.

mtlfan said:

EddieC said:

Why don't I ask them? Because they don't know Prince's work, and couldn't give me an answer that I'd care about. Just like I don't care, here, in this context about anything you're saying in this post. Because I was asking people who care about Prince's music about his use of the concept of rape in a particular way in some unreleased songs (in a thread already about that subject), not asking you (or anyone else) about the week's current clickbait outrage stories or anyone's kneejerk reactions to them (or their well-thought out reactions either, honestly). But, you know--have fun on your horse, and ride it as long as you want. I assume it gives you joy. (OH--and there's probably a P&R thread on one or the other of these dirtbag stories, if you really feel anyone cares what you have to say about them. Or you could start one).

You're right, I'm off topic. But it's not a horse I'm riding, EddieC, it's a horny pony.

You know, I was kind of annoyed (just in case you couldn't tell). But that was clever. Carry on.

its a masterpiece but the version thats been out for decades is rough mix from a second generation cassette copy

SanDiegoFunkDaddy said:

its a masterpiece but the version thats been out for decades is rough mix from a second generation cassette copy

And it's noticable. But to paraphrase Tom Waits, "I like my music with the pulp and the seeds and the rind left in."

Musically its funky , some of the lyrics a bit dodgy, but I still like it and I like his shout out to some of his band members.

[Edited 6/9/16 20:47pm]

mtlfan said:

PurpleSkipper58 said:

terrig said:

I love it...as is.

Its ART and shouldnt be changed....it's not literal, its metaphorical... hence the sounds.....

You are right. It is art. I wouldn't change it. I am glad he wrote it. There is no such thing as thought crime.

[Edited 6/9/16 21:15pm]

RiotPaisley said:

mtlfan said:

anyone want to have non-consensual sex with anyone? If a woman says oh I want to rape you and a guy says oh ok! Then it's not really rape. If she says that and he says no and she does it anyway- it's rape. Rape means not getting consent, it does not mean oh you're hot. That's why to me it was a younger Prince trying to cross lines of sexuality, he made a mistake with that one. He thinks, "I've covered sex, lesbianism, incest, jerking off... Let's try rape. Oh no bad idea- let's pretend we're married." If you like to be dominated or like to dominate, those are different words altogether. Rape has to mean "I did not give consent" and only "I did not give consent" because women have a real hard time proving they were raped because of that kind of stuff. Does that make sense? [Edited 6/9/16 19:48pm]

Mostly true. But have you heard of giantess fetishists? These are guys who literally want to have sex with a giant woman. How about the "paranormal romance" subgenre? Lots of girls out there who get turned on by werewolves and vampires. These are impossible fantasies - just like consenting to rape. There are people out there who fantasize about being raped, even though they can't technically consent to rape if it were to happen. Moreover, this usually stays in the realm of fantasy, and if they were to be raped the reality would likely conflict with the fantasy. Why do they have this fantasy? Who knows. I don't know why people want to wear diapers and act like babies when they have sex, but diaper fetishists are out there and I doubt it's my place to judge them.

My point is, for a while Prince built his career around appealing to every sexual fantasy going. Bestiality? Not exactly, but enough lyrics about horny ponies and scarlet pussies to satisfy the furry community. Pedophilia? No songs about child molestation, but plenty of lyrics that talk about playground hormones, and envelope-pushing raps about hooking up with sixteen year-olds. Rape? He had the Game Boyz assaulting him on stage. Think of him like the closest thing pop music had to an erotic author - maybe he felt compelled to do it all because someone out there would be turned on. Moreover, when he sings "I'm sorry, I'm going to have to rape you," he sounds like a zombie. Maybe not "tongue in cheek," but self-critical of his own lack of control. And at no point does he say in Extraloveable that it's okay to rape women, only that his character in this song that is both fictional (the dead father) and factual (the references to the band) is driven to do it.

I sometimes suspect material like Extraloveable 82 had something to do with his stubborn stance about internet sharing, especially in the wake of his religious conversion. Or maybe he just didn't want too many people seeing Grafitti Bridge.

No I get he was a dirty dude- I never had a problem with it, I liked that about him- Dirty little Prince... and if you read my other posts I agree it's art. And you're right the line is very zombie like and that's a great observation. I don't believe Prince is a rapist- and maybe had he used a different phrase it would have been less cringe worthy of a lyric. he's totally expressing his lack of control. Spot on, I agree. I don't know how that phase would have been interpreted in 1982- but in 2016, we have a problem with a culture of rape. And how women are treated when they report rape, and how rape kits go untested because "well she was probably asking for it" why bother? so today it's hard to be dismissive of the phrase, but before I'd go censoring anything, i just wished he'd used a different word to say what he was saying. Most people in the world are VERY LITERAL and don't get the nuance of- "he's saying it like a zombie and he just means he can't control himself but he isn't really going to do that" I also said that I get people have that fantasy but acting on that fantasy is NOT rape because you are essentially CONSENTING. You set that up, you use safe words, you set boundaries. Actual rape is crossing boundaries set by one of the involved parties. A woman who may have a rape fantasy, I guarantee you, would not enjoy being in a situation where she doesn't at least have SOME control over it in the event it becomes uncomfortable. It's not rape if you "WANT" to get "raped"- it's masochism. Just because SOME girls like that does not mean ALL girls want that. Rape is sex without consent. PERIOD.

Agree wholeheartedly. Thankfully, as far as I know, Prince never inspired "copycat rape" the way, for example, A Clockwork Orange did (and, to his credit, Kubrick pulled the film from UK distribution after that happened).

QueenofCardboard said:

terrig said:

I love it...as is.

Its ART and shouldnt be changed....it's not literal, its metaphorical... hence the sounds.....

You are right. It is art. I wouldn't change it. I am glad he wrote it. There is no such thing as thought crime. I think that he knew it crossed a taboo line though, and that is probably why, in the end, he didn't release it.

"If a man is considered guilty for what goes on in his mind..."

mtlfan said:

EddieC said:

I'm not a woman, so my view is probably not important for this thread (for the record, I think the loss of the offending passage is the only way in which the later versions are preferable to the original)--but I do want to bring up another reference in a different outtake. Now, sometimes Extralovable is said to have been considered for Vanity 6, but it's hard for me to see that as that likely (at least not when he was recording it) because the outtake just plain doesn't sound like it, with the various band related asides (Hey Dez?) and the talk, but maybe... But he does use "rape" in another song that always seemed to be intended for a girl to sing, although it's not present in the released version. Both the Rebels version and the later Prince vocal version of U include the line "You drive a girl to rape, you know you do" (in the original it rhymes with "all the girls go ape for you," but that's gone before the second version). Paula Abdul's version doesn't have the line, but Prince's still using it in 1987 suggests that he still didn't see anything wrong with it. How do you feel about this use of the idea of saying "I want to rape you" to mean "you're attractive" when it's done by a woman to a man? Does that change things?

Why don't you ask the staff at one of the many liberal websites who are foaming at the mouth over the slap-on-the-wrist sentence handed down to one-time male rapist Brock Turner but totally ignoring the story of Alexandria Vera, who statutorily raped her 13 year-old student almost every day for months on end and terminated her preganancy so she wouldn't be found out? Two stories from the same week. Liberals are condemning the lenient six month (more like three month) prison sentence for Turner and demanding the judge's resignation (I agree he made a bad call), but coverage of Vera has been scant, with very few outlets calling her a rapist or a pedophile. But if a male was caught pursuing a 13 year-old? There are whole tv shows based around "catching" these men and labelling them "predators." Double standards cut both ways.

.

I think this is called a strawman argument. Liberals this and liberals that. Women rapists don't get enough coverage because people think women can't rape and men in particular consider boys that are raped "lucky". It's sad.

I don't really care about the song. I prefer the released version, though. That said, apparently he didn't like it very much.

h4rm0ny said:

I don't really care about the song. I prefer the released version, though. That said, apparently he didn't like it very much.

It's ridiculous how great Prince was in 1982. An album consisting of Extraloveable, Do Yourself a Favor, Turn It Up, Moonbeam Levels, etc., would blow most bands off the map, but he had better.

Eh, I don't mind it. same with Lust U Always...

mtlfan said:

It's ridiculous how great Prince was in 1982. An album consisting of Extraloveable, Do Yourself a Favor, Turn It Up, Moonbeam Levels, etc., would blow most bands off the map, but he had better.

Those songs are all great, so please tell me what songs fall in the etc. category.