nonesuch said:

endiadj said:

nonesuch said:

Maybe. Prince mattered to the "gp" when he was adventurous, didn't he? And I can understand why the "gp" didn't take to Prince for this whole man-woman-shit that he had put into "The Rainbow Cildren".

he became a different person over time. no longer the lace wearing, overtly sexualized performer he was in his youth. his beliefs changed. his music changed. his performances changed. he was in a new phase in life and music. obviously the direction he wanted to go in but not a direction the gp expected or followed with him. i can't name many older musicians who've maintained chart success tho.

Who care's about chart-success? Who cares about the "gp"? At the time when most poeple took to Prince, he was a symbol of a certain kind of freedom. At the time he had become dogmatic, he was the opposite of what he once stood for. He alienated a lot of people. Now, quite a few people grow spirtually and psychologically as the get older. But that doesn't mean that they preach on other people. In the best case it means that they get through life more calmly and, if they're lucky, more wisely. With Prince it seemed as if he was every bit a radical as he used to be. Not in his way, though, but in a guided way.

nonesuch said:

GirlBrother said:

I think if Prince was a gay man the rumor mill would have caught it years ago. He had some strange views and I think a tendency to think everyone should believe the same things he did, but ultimately I think his message was that of unity and personal responsibility and a strong work ethic. Some have suggested that he hired women and whites for his band so that he would be more accepted in mainstream music, and that may be partially true, but I chose to believe he did it for a higher purpose, that is a show of unity.

rogifan said:

GirlBrother said:

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Prince was a bisexual whom was in heavy denial of his capacity to find other men sexually attractive.

Why do I get the feeling it's gay people who are convinced he was secretly gay or bi? I swear to god they think everyone is secretly gay. Anyway I have family and friends from Minneapolis (my sister was a waitress and used to wait on Prince all the time) and they'll tell you in no uncertain terms what team he batted regardless of how he dressed. [Edited 6/12/16 16:11pm]

Two quotes come to mind:

"Facts are stupid things" (Ronald Reagen, Repubican National Convention, 1988)

"People wake up, figure it out, religious fanatics around and about, the Court House, the State House, the Congress, the White House. Criminal saints with a heavenly mission, a nation enraptured by pure superstition" ("When The Lie's So Big", Frank Zappa, 1988)

It's been reported by at least two different journalists who talked with him that Prince did blabber about god not wanting a man to be with a man. If that is to be understood as a message of unity or a message of personal responsibility, then my brain doesn't work properly anymore, I'm afraid.

nonesuch said:

rogifan said:

GirlBrother said: Why do I get the feeling it's gay people who are convinced he was secretly gay or bi? I swear to god they think everyone is secretly gay. Anyway I have family and friends from Minneapolis (my sister was a waitress and used to wait on Prince all the time) and they'll tell you in no uncertain terms what team he batted regardless of how he dressed. [Edited 6/12/16 16:11pm]

Two quotes come to mind:

"Facts are stupid things" (Ronald Reagen, Repubican National Convention, 1988)

"People wake up, figure it out, religious fanatics around and about, the Court House, the State House, the Congress, the White House. Criminal saints with a heavenly mission, a nation enraptured by pure superstition" ("When The Lie's So Big", Frank Zappa, 1988)

It's been reported by at least two different journalists who talked with him that Prince did blabber about god not wanting a man to be with a man. If that is to be understood as a message of unity or a message of personal responsibility, then my brain doesn't work properly anymore, I'm afraid.

Maybe your brain isn't working properly. So he said that. That was his belief at the time based on his 'religion'...but I didn't see him saying derogatory things, or excluding people. People are allowed to have their beliefs, it's how they act on those beliefs. Not everyone in the world is going to agree w/ homosexuality, but no one should go around singling people out and mistreating them. Not everyone is going to like me, and that's ok, as long as they don't personally attack me. And yes, he did have a message of personal responsiblity because he was able to create a musical empire starting from when he was a child and he did it all on his own because of a strong work ethic and depending on no one but himself.

I think if Prince truely were homophobic he wouldn't have invited Elton John to perform on stage with him in 2007, nor would he have appeared on Ellen, even going so far as to take his guitar off and put it around her neck after his performance, back in 2009.

CROWNS1 said:

nonesuch said:

Two quotes come to mind:

"Facts are stupid things" (Ronald Reagen, Repubican National Convention, 1988)

"People wake up, figure it out, religious fanatics around and about, the Court House, the State House, the Congress, the White House. Criminal saints with a heavenly mission, a nation enraptured by pure superstition" ("When The Lie's So Big", Frank Zappa, 1988)

It's been reported by at least two different journalists who talked with him that Prince did blabber about god not wanting a man to be with a man. If that is to be understood as a message of unity or a message of personal responsibility, then my brain doesn't work properly anymore, I'm afraid.

Maybe your brain isn't working properly. So he said that. That was his belief at the time based on his 'religion'...but I didn't see him saying derogatory things, or excluding people. People are allowed to have their beliefs, it's how they act on those beliefs. Not everyone in the world is going to agree w/ homosexuality, but no one should go around singling people out and mistreating them. Not everyone is going to like me, and that's ok, as long as they don't personally attack me. And yes, he did have a message of personal responsiblity because he was able to create a musical empire starting from when he was a child and he did it all on his own because of a strong work ethic and depending on no one but himself.

Thank you for your diagnosis! What's to agree with homosexuality? Could you please elaborate?

nonesuch said:

CROWNS1 said:

Maybe your brain isn't working properly. So he said that. That was his belief at the time based on his 'religion'...but I didn't see him saying derogatory things, or excluding people. People are allowed to have their beliefs, it's how they act on those beliefs. Not everyone in the world is going to agree w/ homosexuality, but no one should go around singling people out and mistreating them. Not everyone is going to like me, and that's ok, as long as they don't personally attack me. And yes, he did have a message of personal responsiblity because he was able to create a musical empire starting from when he was a child and he did it all on his own because of a strong work ethic and depending on no one but himself.

Thank you for your diagnosis! What's to agree with homosexuality? Could you please elaborate?

.

Comments deleted - langebleu - moderator

darkroman said:

nonesuch said:

Thank you for your diagnosis! What's to agree with homosexuality? Could you please elaborate?

.Comments deleted - langebleu - moderator

Sorry, darkroman, but it looks like we're moving into very dangerous Donald Trump-territory here. As much as I disagree with the fellow who claims that one can or cannot "agree" with homosexuality, I wouldn't deny anyone the right to her/his belief. Don't know where you got that "all Muslims hate everyone"-bullshit from, but it is really utterly stupid to be saying something like that. Get a grip, we live in a multipolar world. The black and white-painted world doesn't exist anymore.

P was entitled to his opinions, althou at a certain point they certainly became highly influenced by the small minded lackluster bigots he surrounded himself with. As I recall frm looking at his astrology chart he was highly susceptable to being influenced by ppl closest to him and I thought he suffered terribly because of this. I don't believe he himself was ever truely bigoted. Also, he did not ACTIVELY attempt to influence PUBLIC politics/policy (or call for action) w/his religious beliefs. Nor, did he advocate for anyone else PUBLICLY to do so. His beliefs were his own. It's always interesting how ppl who claim to be open minded believe that everyone else should be/think exactly like them-or else. The fact is that in most all animal species; there is bi-sexuality, there is not ONE species that is ONLY Homosexual, besides "modern" humans, who have been corraled into this limited thinking due to "society" and religion which needs endless procreation to increase income from church members/taxes/or soldiers to fight battles for rich ppl.

As far as the Stevie Wonder story and the absurd claims above that only a homophobe or a "stupid" person would not allow a blind person to touch you, they are idiotic. EVERY PERSON HAS A RIGHT TO THEIR PERSONAL BOUNDRIES AND ALLOWING WHO CAN AND CANNOT TOUCH YOUR BODY. No one has a "right" to do anything to you physically, without your permission! Moreover, P. didnt need to explain why to anyone. Nor, does anyone else for that matter. People have their own private reasons for things, it is no ones business. It is your body and is your sacred space, PERIOD.

darkroman said:

nonesuch said:

Thank you for your diagnosis! What's to agree with homosexuality? Could you please elaborate?

.

Comments deleted - langebleu - moderator

Comments deleted - langebleu - moderator

witnessmystyle said:

P was entitled to his opinions, althou at a certain point they certainly became highly influenced by the small minded lackluster bigots he surrounded himself with. As I recall frm looking at his astrology chart he was highly susceptable to being influenced by ppl closest to him and I thought he suffered terribly because of this. I don't believe he himself was ever truely bigoted. Also, he did not ACTIVELY attempt to influence PUBLIC politics/policy (or call for action) w/his religious beliefs. Nor, did he advocate for anyone else PUBLICLY to do so. His beliefs were his own. It's always interesting how ppl who claim to be open minded believe that everyone else should be/think exactly like them-or else. The fact is that in most all animal species; there is bi-sexuality, there is not ONE species that is ONLY Homosexual, besides "modern" humans, who have been corraled into this limited thinking due to "society" and religion which needs endless procreation to increase income from church members/taxes/or soldiers to fight battles for rich ppl.

As far as the Stevie Wonder story and the absurd claims above that only a homophobe or a "stupid" person would not allow a blind person to touch you, they are idiotic. EVERY PERSON HAS A RIGHT TO THEIR PERSONAL BOUNDRIES AND ALLOWING WHO CAN AND CANNOT TOUCH YOUR BODY. No one has a "right" to do anything to you physically, without your permission! Moreover, P. didnt need to explain why to anyone. Nor, does anyone else for that matter. People have their own private reasons for things, it is no ones business. It is your body and is your sacred space, PERIOD.

Not sure about Prince not actively attempting to influence the public with his religious beliefs. Wasn't he ACTIVELY ministering door-to-door at one point? What would you call that?

nonesuch said:

witnessmystyle said:

P was entitled to his opinions, althou at a certain point they certainly became highly influenced by the small minded lackluster bigots he surrounded himself with. As I recall frm looking at his astrology chart he was highly susceptable to being influenced by ppl closest to him and I thought he suffered terribly because of this. I don't believe he himself was ever truely bigoted. Also, he did not ACTIVELY attempt to influence PUBLIC politics/policy (or call for action) w/his religious beliefs. Nor, did he advocate for anyone else PUBLICLY to do so. His beliefs were his own. It's always interesting how ppl who claim to be open minded believe that everyone else should be/think exactly like them-or else. The fact is that in most all animal species; there is bi-sexuality, there is not ONE species that is ONLY Homosexual, besides "modern" humans, who have been corraled into this limited thinking due to "society" and religion which needs endless procreation to increase income from church members/taxes/or soldiers to fight battles for rich ppl.

As far as the Stevie Wonder story and the absurd claims above that only a homophobe or a "stupid" person would not allow a blind person to touch you, they are idiotic. EVERY PERSON HAS A RIGHT TO THEIR PERSONAL BOUNDRIES AND ALLOWING WHO CAN AND CANNOT TOUCH YOUR BODY. No one has a "right" to do anything to you physically, without your permission! Moreover, P. didnt need to explain why to anyone. Nor, does anyone else for that matter. People have their own private reasons for things, it is no ones business. It is your body and is your sacred space, PERIOD.

Not sure about Prince not actively attempting to influence the public with his religious beliefs. Wasn't he ACTIVELY ministering door-to-door at one point? What would you call that?

Until I see proof that he publicly spoke directly on the question of "homosexuality" negatively, I have no reason to imagine that that was the primary reason/topic when he was trying to convert people door-to-door. It seems to me from my limited knowledge of JW; they are far more abusive/discrim towards women (as was P in his music). Yet, I never see these threads going there. Did prince EVER put out any visual material that could be considered homophobic? I don't think so, quite the opposite. If anything his OVERALL body of work seems to me to be very inclusive. What irks me about the current state of identity politics is they often seem to be started/pushed by privileged white males who show little if any concern towards the daily REALITY & violence against animals, women and people of color in the US which statistically is much worse than other groups. Until I see Native American or African American woman who are gay deeply concerned about this type of trivial thing (given the REALITY of life for most working class Americans), it's really difficult to not see this as nothing but priviledge whiny (99% of the time white) Yuppie$ thinking somebody has a different opinion that differs from theres' or horror of horrors might somehow in their arrogant minds impact their privilege.

[Edited 6/13/16 14:49pm]

witnessmystyle said:

nonesuch said:

Not sure about Prince not actively attempting to influence the public with his religious beliefs. Wasn't he ACTIVELY ministering door-to-door at one point? What would you call that?

Until I see proof that he publicly spoke directly on the question of "homosexuality" negatively, I have no reason to imagine that that was the primary reason/topic when he was trying to convert people door-to-door. It seems to me from my limited knowledge of JW; they are far more abusive/discrim towards women (as was P in his music). Yet, I never see these threads going there. Did prince EVER put out any visual material that could be considered homophobic? I don't think so, quite the opposite. If anything his OVERALL body of work seems to me to be very inclusive. What irks me about the current state of identy politics is they often seem to be started/pushed by white males who show little if any concern towards the daily violence against women and people of color in the US which statistically is much worse than ANY other group. Until I see Native American or African American woman who are gay deeply concerned about this type of trivial thing (given the REALITY of life for most working class Americans), it's really difficult to not see this as nothing but priviledge whiney (99% of the time white) Yuppie$ thinking somebody has a different opinion that they view as un-PC, and they are superior and know better.

I understand what you're saying. I'm not a person of color, but there are situations in which I wish I wasn't white. I also understand your rage on the "political correctness" that is in high demand by the so called Priviledged. Please try to understand that I personally never exclude anyone based on color, sexual orientation, gender or income. In fact, my current boyfriend is struggeling with his identity as a gay man of color and he's anything but wealthy. But he's a wonderful human being. I wouldn't dare question for a moment the obvious violence against people of color in the US (and elsewhere) and the chauvinistic grimace of our western societies with which women are being confronted all the time. But please do not measure off one group of mistreated people against another group of mistreated people. We're all in this together and until we learn to respect each other in EVERY WAY, we ultimately will all live in a war zone. There are forces that still want people to believe that the world is to be devided in black and white, good and bad etc., after all. We must not let that happen anymore. I never ever said that Prince was anti-gay from beginning to end. In fact, I found him to be really welcoming towards all kinds of people up until the Lovesexy-era. The vibe he conveyed after that was not my cup of tea, but what the hell. But once he was pointing to the bible when it came to his relationship with Wendy & Lisa or gay people or women (The Rainbow Children) in general, his vibe got alarming. As long as any group of people are suffering from oppression, none of us are free to be what we are. I don't know you and I don't know your reality of life as I live a couple of thousand miles away, but please accept my candor towards you.

RiotPaisley said:

nonesuch said:

witnessmystyle said:

Until I see proof that he publicly spoke directly on the question of "homosexuality" negatively, I have no reason to imagine that that was the primary reason/topic when he was trying to convert people door-to-door. It seems to me from my limited knowledge of JW; they are far more abusive/discrim towards women (as was P in his music). Yet, I never see these threads going there. Did prince EVER put out any visual material that could be considered homophobic? I don't think so, quite the opposite. If anything his OVERALL body of work seems to me to be very inclusive. What irks me about the current state of identy politics is they often seem to be started/pushed by white males who show little if any concern towards the daily violence against women and people of color in the US which statistically is much worse than ANY other group. Until I see Native American or African American woman who are gay deeply concerned about this type of trivial thing (given the REALITY of life for most working class Americans), it's really difficult to not see this as nothing but priviledge whiney (99% of the time white) Yuppie$ thinking somebody has a different opinion that they view as un-PC, and they are superior and know better.

I understand what you're saying. I'm not a person of color, but there are situations in which I wish I wasn't white. I also understand your rage on the "political correctness" that is in high demand by the so called Priviledged. Please try to understand that I personally never exclude anyone based on color, sexual orientation, gender or income. In fact, my current boyfriend is struggeling with his identity as a gay man of color and he's anything but wealthy. But he's a wonderful human being. I wouldn't dare question for a moment the obvious violence against people of color in the US (and elsewhere) and the chauvinistic grimace of our western societies with which women are being confronted all the time. But please do not measure off one group of mistreated people against another group of mistreated people. We're all in this together and until we learn to respect each other in EVERY WAY, we ultimately will all live in a war zone. There are forces that still want people to believe that the world is to be devided in black and white, good and bad etc., after all. We must not let that happen anymore. I never ever said that Prince was anti-gay from beginning to end. In fact, I found him to be really welcoming towards all kinds of people up until the Lovesexy-era. The vibe he conveyed after that was not my cup of tea, but what the hell. But once he was pointing to the bible when it came to his relationship with Wendy & Lisa or gay people or women (The Rainbow Children) in general, his vibe got alarming. As long as any group of people are suffering from oppression, none of us are free to be what we are. I don't know you and I don't know your reality of life as I live a couple of thousand miles away, but please accept my candor towards you.

I absolutely agree with the overall sentiment that you are expressing and statements. I will say that I have had the privilege to travel to many countries and each has its own unique history and issues. Also, all of our Histories effect us individually wheather we are concious of it or not. The church has played a very specific role in America for African Americans. I am not sure that many white people here or in other countries really understand that. I have real issues with most organized religions because they are ALL Patriarchal. However, I see a great distinction between someones personal beliefs (and the power they wield with that) and an Institution. I have never heard one story of P. saying anything directly anti-gay. If you are referring to his quotes where he tapped the Bible... well I would say that it could apply to "heterosexuals' too since sodomy is not an exclusively "homosexual" act and many heterosexual men and women enjoy it. To me that alleged quote from him seemed really like something he just spewed in the moment and how Patriarchal his definition of sex (PIV) was. Again, there is a huge difference between someones personal belief and them advocating laws/policy. Also, he certainly had many lesbian/gay friends he worked with throughout the years. If anything during his fundamentalist years, he had my profound sympathy because I beieve in a way he was punishing himself for what he believed where "sins" of his youth. To me, it's those types of things that I judge someone on. I hope your partner can come to a place of love and acceptance.

" like them mens..but I likes their moms betta"

witnessmystyle said:

nonesuch said:

I understand what you're saying. I'm not a person of color, but there are situations in which I wish I wasn't white. I also understand your rage on the "political correctness" that is in high demand by the so called Priviledged. Please try to understand that I personally never exclude anyone based on color, sexual orientation, gender or income. In fact, my current boyfriend is struggeling with his identity as a gay man of color and he's anything but wealthy. But he's a wonderful human being. I wouldn't dare question for a moment the obvious violence against people of color in the US (and elsewhere) and the chauvinistic grimace of our western societies with which women are being confronted all the time. But please do not measure off one group of mistreated people against another group of mistreated people. We're all in this together and until we learn to respect each other in EVERY WAY, we ultimately will all live in a war zone. There are forces that still want people to believe that the world is to be devided in black and white, good and bad etc., after all. We must not let that happen anymore. I never ever said that Prince was anti-gay from beginning to end. In fact, I found him to be really welcoming towards all kinds of people up until the Lovesexy-era. The vibe he conveyed after that was not my cup of tea, but what the hell. But once he was pointing to the bible when it came to his relationship with Wendy & Lisa or gay people or women (The Rainbow Children) in general, his vibe got alarming. As long as any group of people are suffering from oppression, none of us are free to be what we are. I don't know you and I don't know your reality of life as I live a couple of thousand miles away, but please accept my candor towards you.

I absolutely agree with the overall sentiment that you are expressing and statements. I will say that I have had the privilege to travel to many countries and each has its own unique history and issues. Also, all of our Histories effect us individually wheather we are concious of it or not. The church has played a very specific role in America for African Americans. I am not sure that many white people here or in other countries really understand that. I have real issues with most organized religions because they are ALL Patriarchal. However, I see a great distinction between someones personal beliefs (and the power they wield with that) and an Institution. I have never heard one story of P. saying anything directly anti-gay. If you are referring to his quotes where he tapped the Bible... well I would say that it could apply to "heterosexuals' too since sodomy is not an exclusively "homosexual" act and many heterosexual men and women enjoy it. To me that alleged quote from him seemed really like something he just spewed in the moment and how Patriarchal his definition of sex (PIV) was. Again, there is a huge difference between someones personal belief and them advocating laws/policy. Also, he certainly had many lesbian/gay friends he worked with throughout the years. If anything during his fundamentalist years, he had my profound sympathy because I beieve in a way he was punishing himself for what he believed where "sins" of his youth. To me, it's those types of things that I judge someone on. I hope your partner can come to a place of love and acceptance.

Thank you for your reply. I find it difficult to "judge" on anyone as long as she/he is not judging on anyone else. Having said that, it's probably not apllicable to be judgemental on anything at all. People are being what they are and ultimately there's no reason for me to raise my voice against any one of us. Indeed, I have a strong feeling that it is mostly weak people who judge on other people. To be judgemental is an expression of fear. But then again, do I have a right to feel that judging on anyone is an expression of fear? The whole idea of one breed of people thinking that they're superior to others is the origin of all destruction. The burning cross in the land of the cotton bears the same symbolism as the bullets that killed 50 people in Orlando. Unfortunately, mankind hasn't evolved far enough yet to accept that there is no us and them. There's only us and as I had said earlier, we're all in this together. If a cop thinks he's doing a service to "his" society by killing a man of color, he's directing a bullet in my direction as well, because I may not apply to his conception of being an acceptable part of "his" society. But in fact we all are. Life isn't judging on anything. Nature isn't judging on anything. Life is. Period. In all its different glory. So, let's hope that being judgemental on anything will soon be a thing of the past, so that we can get along and feel as worthy as anyone else. I am sure that Prince did struggle with a lot of personal stuff. As much as any of us. And maybe he was as weak as any of us. Maybe his weakness forced him to point to the bible more than once in his latter years. Maybe he gained power and money and a superior understanding of music to overshadow his weak side. If that's the case he had a lot more in common with the average gay man than he might have prefered to. I like weak people, they make me feel comfortable, because I am as weak as anyone.

nonesuch said:

CROWNS1 said:

Maybe your brain isn't working properly. So he said that. That was his belief at the time based on his 'religion'...but I didn't see him saying derogatory things, or excluding people. People are allowed to have their beliefs, it's how they act on those beliefs. Not everyone in the world is going to agree w/ homosexuality, but no one should go around singling people out and mistreating them. Not everyone is going to like me, and that's ok, as long as they don't personally attack me. And yes, he did have a message of personal responsiblity because he was able to create a musical empire starting from when he was a child and he did it all on his own because of a strong work ethic and depending on no one but himself.

Thank you for your diagnosis! What's to agree with homosexuality? Could you please elaborate?

Look, it seems like you are just looking to pick an argument. I mean just what I say, you chose to take it how you want to. I have no problems with anyone's choices, the only things that are my business are my choices (and before you get your panties twisted, NO, I do NOT believe being homosexual is a choice, but how we react to these issues, is a choice) I stand with my comments that people are entitled to believe whatever they want to believe as long as they do no harm to any person. I understand you may be upset about current events, but this is not the place or people to take it out on, and certainly Prince is not the person to take your anger out on. Peace and love to you.

[Edited 6/14/16 6:28am]

CROWNS1 said:

nonesuch said:

Thank you for your diagnosis! What's to agree with homosexuality? Could you please elaborate?

Look, it seems like you are just looking to pick an argument. I mean just what I say, you chose to take it how you want to. I have no problems with anyone's choices, the only things that are my business are my choices (and before you get your panties twisted, NO, I do NOT believe being homosexual is a choice, but how we react to these issues, is a choice) I stand with my comments that people are entitled to believe whatever they want to believe as long as they do no harm to any person. I understand you may be upset about current events, but this is not the place or people to take it out on, and certainly Prince is not the person to take your anger out on. Peace and love to you.

[Edited 6/14/16 6:28am]

Whatever you think, however you understand any written word is YOUR CHOICE, I'll co-sign that. As far as "current events" are concerned, I am certainly outraged. It should be clear by now that the Orlando-killer was not in any way motivated by religion, but Prince let himself being motivated by religion in his view on quite a few social-issues. Thus, I find it rather presumtuous of you to tell me in a roundabout way that this is not the forum to discuss it. You feel free to post anything you like here, don't you? How can you tell somebody else what not to post? Having said that, you're entitled to state whatever you like. I might just not agree with it.

LeeChristmas said:

rogifan said:

GirlBrother said:

rogifan said:

Why do I get the feeling it's gay people who are convinced he was secretly gay or bi?

Because it takes one to know one.

Well said.

nonesuch said:

rainbowchild said:

nonesuch said:

Well said.

I won't be surprised if he even came out as transgender like Caitlyn Jenner.

I would love that so soo frickin much omfg.