GuyBros said:

h4rm0ny said:

Him performing Dance (Disco Heat) - a song intensely tied to gay history - seemed to be an intentional choice to show that he didn't care. (He was also the only living person at the time who could cover that song without messing it up.)

I'm... not really so quick to adopt that perspective. I just don't have any reason to believe that his motivation in covering a song would be for that specific purpose. It seemed, in my limited understanding, that he was a fan of good music from artists in general. Perhaps if there was more context to this performance such as it being during a time where he was being highly criticized regarding homophobia, and he remarked before or during the performance in some way that directly referenced such allegations. But a performance of a top 40 single that had another higher Billboard charting single as it's b-side... Doesn't in and of itself strike me as any sort of communication that he was indifferent towards non-heteronormative sexualities.

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His first performance of Dance (Disco Heat) was in 2011 at the Viage (I think). But all the recordings I heard of him doing it, he seemed to have a lot of fun doing it and there really was no talk about any of that stuff. I can't imagine he'd not know the context of the song.

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I'd like to think he chilled out, since he did seem to chill out about trying to convert people for any reason.

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Part of me hopes that there's a bootleg somewhere with him singing You Make Me Feel, too. Sylvester and Prince had a lot more in common than not.

[Edited 5/31/16 5:12am]

rlittler81 said:

savvy said:

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People who use "SJW" automatically lose credibility. But I'll entertain this: he told Wendy and Lisa they needed to find God and renounce being lesbians and become Jehovah's Witnesses. He also told a Muslim fan to find Christ. It was only for a very short period (around the time of The Rainbow Children release), and he ended up renouncing that hate and performed a few songs by gay musicians (a standout was Dance (Disco Heat) by Sylvester), but he did become hateful for a bit. That was confirmed by witnesses and the people who knew and cared about him. Sorry. Feel free to keep frothing at the mouth about SJWs, though.

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TL;DR - For a short period of time, Prince was kind of a preachy ass. That was confirmed by the people around him. But he chilled out shortly thereafter. But the fact remains he did become that way.

[Edited 5/30/16 15:22pm]

"People who use 'SJW' automatically lose credibility." hahahaha...spoken (written) like a real delicate snowflake, trigger warning becuase words hurt, SJW flower. He became hateful? Yeah, that myth won't really fly here. Seriously though, that's a ballsy troll move, coming to a Prince site and telling the world how full of hate and vitriol he was (a month after he died no less), when by every personal account. he was just the opposite. But I'll help you out. If you really have a need to show the world how this man was the quintessence of evil why don't you share how he threatened Morris and Paul with lawsuits when they wanted to use the names "The Time" and "The Family" respectively for reuninion tours. That should give you what you need. Enjoy.

In my observation, people who use the term SJW use it to dismiss any form of social criticism -- regardless of the argument's articulacy. It's trite and tells more about the person using the term than it does the person they're insulting.

FUNKYNESS said:

herrherr said:

savvy said:

"People who use 'SJW' automatically lose credibility." hahahaha...spoken (written) like a real delicate snowflake, trigger warning becuase words hurt, SJW flower. He became hateful? Yeah, that myth won't really fly here. Seriously though, that's a ballsy troll move, coming to a Prince site and telling the world how full of hate and vitriol he was (a month after he died no less), when by every personal account. he was just the opposite. But I'll help you out. If you really have a need to show the world how this man was the quintessence of evil why don't you share how he threatened Morris and Paul with lawsuits when they wanted to use the names "The Time" and "The Family" respectively for reuninion tours. That should give you what you need. Enjoy.

In my observation, people who use the term SJW use it to dismiss any form of social criticism -- regardless of the argument's articulacy. It's trite and tells more about the person using the term than it does the person they're insulting.

I guess I'm supposed to be sorry, but, sorry not sorry. It is interesting however that you see being a Social Justice Warrior as somehow lesser. "I never said that." You did when you pointed out that the term SJW is somehow an insult.

savvy said:

herrherr said:

In my observation, people who use the term SJW use it to dismiss any form of social criticism -- regardless of the argument's articulacy. It's trite and tells more about the person using the term than it does the person they're insulting.

I guess I'm supposed to be sorry, but, sorry not sorry. It is interesting however that you see being a Social Justice Warrior as somehow lesser. "I never said that." You did when you pointed out that the term SJW is somehow an insult.

It's not how I see things; it's a perjorative term. You have used it as such. Don't play the fool.

NouveauDance said:

savvy said:

Another singularly outstanding trolling effort. Coming to a Prince site and writing a seven paragraph diatribe on how "homophobic" Prince was. Nice.

We must've all imagined those comments he publically made in recent years.

Do tell. In the universe you live in, can someone disagree with you without being a hate monger? Or must someone that doesn't see it your way always exist in some venomous star chamber?

herrherr said:

savvy said:

I guess I'm supposed to be sorry, but, sorry not sorry. It is interesting however that you see being a Social Justice Warrior as somehow lesser. "I never said that." You did when you pointed out that the term SJW is somehow an insult.

It's not how I see things; it's a perjorative term. You have used it as such. Don't play the fool.

Yes of course. If Wikipedia calls it perjorative, it must be so.

savvy said:

herrherr said:

It's not how I see things; it's a perjorative term. You have used it as such. Don't play the fool.

Yes of course. If Wikipedia calls it perjorative, it must be so.

Transparent troll is transparent.

herrherr said:

savvy said:

Yes of course. If Wikipedia calls it perjorative, it must be so.

Transparent troll is transparent.

Which is what I pointed out at the beginning of this line.

savvy said:

herrherr said:

Transparent troll is transparent.

Which is what I pointed out at the beginning of this line.

Hunty, even Narcissus realized he was looking at his reflection~*~*~

herrherr said:

savvy said:

Which is what I pointed out at the beginning of this line.

Hunty, even Narcissus realized he was looking at his reflection~*~*~

HAHAHA. The problem with that is Narcissus was a myth.

savvy said:

herrherr said:

Hunty, even Narcissus realized he was looking at his reflection~*~*~

HAHAHA. The problem with that is Narcissus was a myth.

Yes, of course. If Wikipedia calls it a myth, it must be so.

herrherr said:

savvy said:

HAHAHA. The problem with that is Narcissus was a myth.

Yes, of course. If Wikipedia calls it a myth, it must be so.

Yeah, you better include that wink.

savvy said:

Do tell. In the universe you live in, can someone disagree with you without being a hate monger? Or must someone that doesn't see it your way always exist in some venomous star chamber?

It's not a matter of opinion or my way or the highway. There's no disagreement to be had here, because anyone who "disagrees" with equality (for any group of people based on natural traits like race, sexuality, gender etc) is saying this group who they don't like are second class citizens and are a lower creature than they are, and that kind of thought process makes me want to vomit. Anyone who thinks like that deserves no respect from me.

.

Someone can have such opinions - clearly many do, but just like if someone says "Niggers should go to hell" - if you express that opinion, I'm going to really lose respect for you, not really want anything to do with you, and basically think you are an all-round fucking turd.

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Now, like Adorecream says above, I can actually see reasons as to why Prince might've expressed some of the opinions he has done in the past, as a kind of deflection tactic. And I also think it's pretty darn obvious why he got wrapped up in the whole JW thing when he did - so I can kind of compartmentalise these issues we're discussing here in a way that makes me put Prince's views on the backburner and still listen to his more recent music, but that doesn't mean I give Prince a get out of jail free card for what he said.

He had more of a following than I first thought.

NouveauDance said:

savvy said:

Do tell. In the universe you live in, can someone disagree with you without being a hate monger? Or must someone that doesn't see it your way always exist in some venomous star chamber?

It's not a matter of opinion or my way or the highway. There's no disagreement to be had here, because anyone who "disagrees" with equality (for any group of people based on natural traits like race, sexuality, gender etc) is saying this group who they don't like are second class citizens and are a lower creature than they are, and that kind of thought process makes me want to vomit. Anyone who thinks like that deserves no respect from me.

.

Someone can have such opinions - clearly many do, but just like if someone says "Niggers should go to hell" - if you express that opinion, I'm going to really lose respect for you, not really want anything to do with you, and basically think you are an all-round fucking turd.

.

Now, like Adorecream says above, I can actually see reasons as to why Prince might've expressed some of the opinions he has done in the past, as a kind of deflection tactic. And I also think it's pretty darn obvious why he got wrapped up in the whole JW thing when he did - so I can kind of compartmentalise these issues we're discussing here in a way that makes me put Prince's views on the backburner and still listen to his more recent music, but that doesn't mean I give Prince a get out of jail free card for what he said.

So the answer to my questions respectively are "No" and "Yes". Thank you.

savvy said:

NouveauDance said:

It's not a matter of opinion or my way or the highway. There's no disagreement to be had here, because anyone who "disagrees" with equality (for any group of people based on natural traits like race, sexuality, gender etc) is saying this group who they don't like are second class citizens and are a lower creature than they are, and that kind of thought process makes me want to vomit. Anyone who thinks like that deserves no respect from me.

.

Someone can have such opinions - clearly many do, but just like if someone says "Niggers should go to hell" - if you express that opinion, I'm going to really lose respect for you, not really want anything to do with you, and basically think you are an all-round fucking turd.

.

Now, like Adorecream says above, I can actually see reasons as to why Prince might've expressed some of the opinions he has done in the past, as a kind of deflection tactic. And I also think it's pretty darn obvious why he got wrapped up in the whole JW thing when he did - so I can kind of compartmentalise these issues we're discussing here in a way that makes me put Prince's views on the backburner and still listen to his more recent music, but that doesn't mean I give Prince a get out of jail free card for what he said.

So the answer to my questions respectively are "No" and "Yes". Thank you.

NouveauDance is saying No to a specific topic. Not about all things in general. NouveauDance isn't saying in the topics of EQUALITy, not just 'someone' who 'disagrees with you' in general.

NouveauDance said:

savvy said:

Do tell. In the universe you live in, can someone disagree with you without being a hate monger? Or must someone that doesn't see it your way always exist in some venomous star chamber?

It's not a matter of opinion or my way or the highway. There's no disagreement to be had here, because anyone who "disagrees" with equality (for any group of people based on natural traits like race, sexuality, gender etc) is saying this group who they don't like are second class citizens and are a lower creature than they are, and that kind of thought process makes me want to vomit. Anyone who thinks like that deserves no respect from me.

.

Someone can have such opinions - clearly many do, but just like if someone says "Niggers should go to hell" - if you express that opinion, I'm going to really lose respect for you, not really want anything to do with you, and basically think you are an all-round fucking turd.

.

Now, like Adorecream says above, I can actually see reasons as to why Prince might've expressed some of the opinions he has done in the past, as a kind of deflection tactic. And I also think it's pretty darn obvious why he got wrapped up in the whole JW thing when he did - so I can kind of compartmentalise these issues we're discussing here in a way that makes me put Prince's views on the backburner and still listen to his more recent music, but that doesn't mean I give Prince a get out of jail free card for what he said.

100%

OldFriends4Sale said:

savvy said:

So the answer to my questions respectively are "No" and "Yes". Thank you.

NouveauDance is saying No to a specific topic. Not about all things in general. NouveauDance isn't saying in the topics of EQUALITy, not just 'someone' who 'disagrees with you' in general.

Yeah umm...the answers to my questions are No and Yes.

savvy said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

NouveauDance is saying No to a specific topic. Not about all things in general. NouveauDance isn't saying in the topics of EQUALITy, not just 'someone' who 'disagrees with you' in general.

Yeah umm...the answers to my questions are No and Yes.

Only if you refuse to see it in any other way but black and white, sure. Unfortunately, you don't get the benefit of upholding prejudices AND being morally sound.

Marrk said:

bookwomen said:

Q is for questioning

'E' would be better. E for explorers.

I always thought that Queer was the same thing as Gay?

oceancrayon said:

As a gay guy, obviously his earlier stuff lyrically, really attracted me to him. As a musician, the music that accompanied those zany lyrics was nothing short of genius. I got into him around 2009, so he was already full on JW mode when I came around. I have heard unfavorable quotes attributed to him, and I guess because of his past I gave him sort of a free pass, if those quotes were true. In my heart of hearts though, I don't think he was absolutely, truly homophobic.(Being on Ellen, playing sporadically again with W&L, etc) I just can't see how a guy with full makeup and high heels (basically a wig away from being a drag queen lol) having a completely coldheart towards us.

I think that he was OK with being around lesbians. When it comes to gay guys, I don't know. He has said some things in the past that make me think that he was not totally supportive of LGBT people. For instance, in his song Bambi, there is a line that says "Bambi, it's better with a man". I read in, Alex Hahn's book (I think), that he once told Lisa and Wendy that they were going to hell for their life style. Nevertheless, in the early days, people thought that Prince was gay because of how he dressed and carried himself. He definitely went where not many straight guys would go.

[Edited 5/31/16 11:44am]

DiscoBallz said:

savvy said:

Yeah umm...the answers to my questions are No and Yes.

Only if you refuse to see it in any other way but black and white, sure. Unfortunately, you don't get the benefit of upholding prejudices AND being morally sound.

Seeing it in black and white? You mean like someone maintaining that Prince was only capable of hatred because he doesn't see homosexuality as natural? Black and white like that?

savvy said:

DiscoBallz said:

Only if you refuse to see it in any other way but black and white, sure. Unfortunately, you don't get the benefit of upholding prejudices AND being morally sound.

Seeing it in black and white? You mean like someone maintaining that Prince was only capable of hatred because he doesn't see homosexuality as natural? Black and white like that?

I don't think anyone said Prince was incapable of anything but hatred. That sounds like a very bold and wayward interpretation of the concept that you are a bigot if you don't support equal rights for human beings. It speaks of intolerance to attempt to force someone to denounce their biology and their beliefs in favor of your own lest you disassociate with them. Intolerance is the root of bigotry. Yes, Prince had some pretty warped ideas about sexuality later in his life. Some of his statements and behaviors were entirely rooted in bigotry. But he, like most of us, was a multi-layered individual and most gay folks understand that there is still some learning to be done by many people the world over in terms of sexuality and how it relates to God.

I don’t think anyone said Prince was incapable of anything but hatred. Yes, you are correct in that the letters H-A-T-R-E-D aren’t contained in the words “homophobe” or “bigot”. That sounds like a very bold and wayward interpretation of the concept that you are a bigot if you don’t support equal rights for human beings. When did Prince denounce “biology”? More importantly, why would he when biology actually supports his position? Intolerance is the root of bigotry. Like not tolerating those who just don’t happen to buy into a “homosexuality is normal behavior” narrative? That kind of intolerance? The kind of intolerance that forces one to place the rather ugly label of “bigot” posthumously on a man that spent a 40 year career writing about love and spirituality? The kind of intolerance that emphatically denies the existence of even a remote possibility that a man can see homosexuality as unnatural, but can still treat homosexuals warmly, compassionately, and respectfully? Is that the sort of intolerance you're referring to?

[Edited 5/31/16 13:13pm]

[Edited 5/31/16 13:19pm]

savvy said:

I don’t think anyone said Prince was incapable of anything but hatred. Yes, you are correct in that the letters H-A-T-R-E-D aren’t contained in the words “homophobe” or “bigot”. That sounds like a very bold and wayward interpretation of the concept that you are a bigot if you don’t support equal rights for human beings. When did Prince denounce “biology”? More importantly, why would he when biology actually supports his position? “Let a woman be a woman, and a man be a man…” Intolerance is the root of bigotry. Like not tolerating those who just don’t happen to buy into a “homosexuality is normal behavior” narrative? That kind of intolerance? The kind of intolerance that forces one to place the rather ugly label of “bigot” posthumously on a man that spent a 40 year career writing about love and spirituality? The kind of intolerance that emphatically denies the existence of even a remote possibility that a man can see homosexuality as unnatural, but can still treat homosexuals respectfully? Is that the sort of intolerance you're referring to?

Um, yeah. Bigotry and intolerance are bigotry and intolerance regardless of how you want to appeal to emotion.

DiscoBallz said:

savvy said:

I don’t think anyone said Prince was incapable of anything but hatred. Yes, you are correct in that the letters H-A-T-R-E-D aren’t contained in the words “homophobe” or “bigot”. That sounds like a very bold and wayward interpretation of the concept that you are a bigot if you don’t support equal rights for human beings. When did Prince denounce “biology”? More importantly, why would he when biology actually supports his position? “Let a woman be a woman, and a man be a man…” Intolerance is the root of bigotry. Like not tolerating those who just don’t happen to buy into a “homosexuality is normal behavior” narrative? That kind of intolerance? The kind of intolerance that forces one to place the rather ugly label of “bigot” posthumously on a man that spent a 40 year career writing about love and spirituality? The kind of intolerance that emphatically denies the existence of even a remote possibility that a man can see homosexuality as unnatural, but can still treat homosexuals respectfully? Is that the sort of intolerance you're referring to?

Um, yeah. Bigotry and intolerance are bigotry and intolerance regardless of how you want to appeal to emotion.

Ok. Great. So long as you can own up to your bigotry, that's all that matters. Thanks.

[Edited 5/31/16 13:22pm]

savvy said:

DiscoBallz said:

Um, yeah. Bigotry and intolerance are bigotry and intolerance regardless of how you want to appeal to emotion.

Ok. Great. So long as you can own up to your bigotry, that's all that matters. Thanks.

[Edited 5/31/16 13:22pm]

If I were a bigot, I wouldn't be spending money on and still listening to Prince. I've no intolerance when it comes to religious folks, though I do disagree with their opinions on equality. See the difference?

-

It's already been said here what Wendy's experience with Prince was in 2004. I'm glad they got past the issue. That doesn't negate the fact that Prince had, at various points in his career, made comments that were rooted in bigotry. As previously mentioned, folks are multi-layered. You really want to act like people are crucifying Prince because it seems you're pretty enmeshed in your feelings. But that's not accurate.