savvy said:

I don’t think anyone said Prince was incapable of anything but hatred. Yes, you are correct in that the letters H-A-T-R-E-D aren’t contained in the words “homophobe” or “bigot”. That sounds like a very bold and wayward interpretation of the concept that you are a bigot if you don’t support equal rights for human beings. When did Prince denounce “biology”? More importantly, why would he when biology actually supports his position? Intolerance is the root of bigotry. Like not tolerating those who just don’t happen to buy into a “homosexuality is normal behavior” narrative? That kind of intolerance? The kind of intolerance that forces one to place the rather ugly label of “bigot” posthumously on a man that spent a 40 year career writing about love and spirituality? The kind of intolerance that emphatically denies the existence of even a remote possibility that a man can see homosexuality as unnatural, but can still treat homosexuals warmly, compassionately, and respectfully? Is that the sort of intolerance you're referring to?

[Edited 5/31/16 13:13pm]

[Edited 5/31/16 13:19pm]

Referring to homosexuality as "the dirty world" signals compassion and respect? Telling.

DiscoBallz said:

savvy said:

Ok. Great. So long as you can own up to your bigotry, that's all that matters. Thanks.

[Edited 5/31/16 13:22pm]

If I were a bigot, I wouldn't be spending money on and still listening to Prince. I've no intolerance when it comes to religious folks, though I do disagree with their opinions on equality. See the difference?

-

It's already been said here what Wendy's experience with Prince was in 2004. I'm glad they got past the issue. That doesn't negate the fact that Prince had, at various points in his career, made comments that were rooted in bigotry. As previously mentioned, folks are multi-layered. You really want to act like people are crucifying Prince because it seems you're pretty enmeshed in your feelings. But that's not accurate.

No, you wouldn't do that. You do however use the sweeping generalizations of "homophobe" and "bigot" (bigoted behavior in itself and using words that are just a bit inflamatory) to describe Prince and Christians/JW etc. (and for the record I'm more or less atheist, so no horse in the race) that simply don't see homosexuality as natural.

Most of the religions in that range, generally speaking, adopt the philosophy of compassion and generosity to anyone they see as a sinner (see Mary Magdalen AKA Our Lady of the Blessed Streetwalkers). Now I’m sure someone on your side of it will bring up the likes of Westboro Baptist. Really? See them as mainstream Christians do you? Another great counter might be, “JW is hardly mainstream Christianity.” Valid point. Good point. However what is certain is while they aren’t mainstream, and they may urge, (they may look at it as counseling) a gay man to change his “sinful, indulgent ways”, they will not push a hate platform. They don’t hold signs that say “God hates F*gs”. They don’t throw rocks, lynch, shoot, or otherwise berate gay people. They can’t. Their faith won’t permit it. Their faith permits Jesus’ teachings of charity, tenderness, and tolerance of sinners. I hate to rain on your parade (so to speak) but if you’re looking at any genuine sect of Christianity, you won’t find bigots. Now if you shift your focus to Islam…well...that’s a subject for another time. Bottom-line is characterizing Prince as homophobic, someone afraid of homosexuals, someone who hates homosexuals, going by history and by dogma, is wholly inaccurate.

[Edited 5/31/16 14:00pm]

[Edited 5/31/16 14:01pm]

[Edited 5/31/16 14:05pm]

savvy said:

DiscoBallz said:

If I were a bigot, I wouldn't be spending money on and still listening to Prince. I've no intolerance when it comes to religious folks, though I do disagree with their opinions on equality. See the difference?

-

It's already been said here what Wendy's experience with Prince was in 2004. I'm glad they got past the issue. That doesn't negate the fact that Prince had, at various points in his career, made comments that were rooted in bigotry. As previously mentioned, folks are multi-layered. You really want to act like people are crucifying Prince because it seems you're pretty enmeshed in your feelings. But that's not accurate.

No, you wouldn't do that. You do however use the sweeping generalizations of "homophobe" and "bigot" (bigoted behavior in itself and using words that are just a bit inflamatory) to describe Prince and Christians/JW etc. (and for the record I'm more or less atheist, so no horse in the race) that simply don't see homosexuality as natural.

Most of the religions in that range, generally speaking, adopt the philosophy of compassion and generosity to anyone they see as a sinner (see Mary Magdalen AKA Our Lady of the Blessed Streetwalkers). Now I’m sure someone on your side of it will bring up the likes of Westboro Baptist. Really? See them as mainstream Christians do you? Another great counter might be, “JW is hardly mainstream Christianity.” Valid point. Good point. However what is certain is while they aren’t mainstream, and they may urge, (they may look at it as counseling) a gay man to change his “sinful, indulgent ways”, they will not push a hate platform. They don’t hold signs that say “God hates F*gs”. They don’t throw rocks, lynch, shoot, or otherwise berate gay people. They can’t. Their faith won’t permit it. Their faith permits Jesus’ teachings of charity, tenderness, and tolerance of sinners. I hate to rain on your parade (so to speak) but if you’re looking at any genuine sect of Christianity, you won’t find bigots. Now if you shift your focus to Islam…well...that’s a subject for another time. Bottom-line is characterizing Prince as homophobic, someone afraid of homosexuals, someone who hates homosexuals, going by history and by dogma, is wholly inaccurate.

[Edited 5/31/16 14:00pm]

[Edited 5/31/16 14:01pm]

[Edited 5/31/16 14:05pm]

The great thing about science is that it is true regardless of whether you believe in it or not. And I never made any judgements about the character of these folks. However, if you feel like equal rights is a problem, then you likely are the problem therein. On at least a handful of occasions, Prince said something inflammatory enough to have folks wonder if he had renegged on his utopian, come-one-come-all attitude for decades prior. I still love Prince and all his flaws. Much like I love other people I feel "close" to, in some fashion, who have a ways to go in terms of education and tolerance.

DiscoBallz said:

savvy said:

No, you wouldn't do that. You do however use the sweeping generalizations of "homophobe" and "bigot" (bigoted behavior in itself and using words that are just a bit inflamatory) to describe Prince and Christians/JW etc. (and for the record I'm more or less atheist, so no horse in the race) that simply don't see homosexuality as natural.

Most of the religions in that range, generally speaking, adopt the philosophy of compassion and generosity to anyone they see as a sinner (see Mary Magdalen AKA Our Lady of the Blessed Streetwalkers). Now I’m sure someone on your side of it will bring up the likes of Westboro Baptist. Really? See them as mainstream Christians do you? Another great counter might be, “JW is hardly mainstream Christianity.” Valid point. Good point. However what is certain is while they aren’t mainstream, and they may urge, (they may look at it as counseling) a gay man to change his “sinful, indulgent ways”, they will not push a hate platform. They don’t hold signs that say “God hates F*gs”. They don’t throw rocks, lynch, shoot, or otherwise berate gay people. They can’t. Their faith won’t permit it. Their faith permits Jesus’ teachings of charity, tenderness, and tolerance of sinners. I hate to rain on your parade (so to speak) but if you’re looking at any genuine sect of Christianity, you won’t find bigots. Now if you shift your focus to Islam…well...that’s a subject for another time. Bottom-line is characterizing Prince as homophobic, someone afraid of homosexuals, someone who hates homosexuals, going by history and by dogma, is wholly inaccurate.

[Edited 5/31/16 14:00pm]

[Edited 5/31/16 14:01pm]

[Edited 5/31/16 14:05pm]

The great thing about science is that it is true regardless of whether you believe in it or not. And I never made any judgements about the character of these folks. However, if you feel like equal rights is a problem, then you likely are the problem therein. On at least a handful of occasions, Prince said something inflammatory enough to have folks wonder if he had renegged on his utopian, come-one-come-all attitude for decades prior. I still love Prince and all his flaws. Much like I love other people I feel "close" to, in some fashion, who have a ways to go in terms of education and tolerance.

The great thing about science is that it is true regardless of whether you believe in it or not. Amen. And I never made any judgements about the character of these folks. You do every time you use the words “homophobe” or “bigot”. However, if you feel like equal rights is a problem, then you likely are the problem therein. At what point, anywhere in any conversation I have had with you or anyone else ever could you possibly extrapolate “Savvy wants to deny rights.” On at least a handful of occasions, Prince said something inflammatory enough to have folks wonder if he had renegged on his utopian, come-one-come-all attitude for decades prior In spite of corporate mantras to the contrary perception is not reality. Trigger warning, Prince pisses people off. Doesn’t mean he hates.

savvy said:

DiscoBallz said:

The great thing about science is that it is true regardless of whether you believe in it or not. And I never made any judgements about the character of these folks. However, if you feel like equal rights is a problem, then you likely are the problem therein. On at least a handful of occasions, Prince said something inflammatory enough to have folks wonder if he had renegged on his utopian, come-one-come-all attitude for decades prior. I still love Prince and all his flaws. Much like I love other people I feel "close" to, in some fashion, who have a ways to go in terms of education and tolerance.

The great thing about science is that it is true regardless of whether you believe in it or not. Amen. And I never made any judgements about the character of these folks. You do every time you use the words “homophobe” or “bigot”. However, if you feel like equal rights is a problem, then you likely are the problem therein. At what point, anywhere in any conversation I have had with you or anyone else ever could you possibly extrapolate “Savvy wants to deny rights.” On at least a handful of occasions, Prince said something inflammatory enough to have folks wonder if he had renegged on his utopian, come-one-come-all attitude for decades prior In spite of corporate mantras to the contrary perception is not reality. Trigger warning, Prince pisses people off. Doesn’t mean he hates.

Trigger warning: It's not always all about you. General statements can be made. I call it like I see it - prejudiced statements were made and unabashedly so. He corrected a reporter once and only once, to my knowledge, about the tone of some of those statements. No one here is suggesting Prince was a hateful guy. And sometimes well-meaning people are led astray in their beliefs. I hope that Prince re-found his global acceptance to all types of well-meaning people himself.

DiscoBallz said:

savvy said:

The great thing about science is that it is true regardless of whether you believe in it or not. Amen. And I never made any judgements about the character of these folks. You do every time you use the words “homophobe” or “bigot”. However, if you feel like equal rights is a problem, then you likely are the problem therein. At what point, anywhere in any conversation I have had with you or anyone else ever could you possibly extrapolate “Savvy wants to deny rights.” On at least a handful of occasions, Prince said something inflammatory enough to have folks wonder if he had renegged on his utopian, come-one-come-all attitude for decades prior In spite of corporate mantras to the contrary perception is not reality. Trigger warning, Prince pisses people off. Doesn’t mean he hates.

Trigger warning: It's not always all about you. General statements can be made. I call it like I see it - prejudiced statements were made and unabashedly so. He corrected a reporter once and only once, to my knowledge, about the tone of some of those statements. No one here is suggesting Prince was a hateful guy. And sometimes well-meaning people are led astray in their beliefs. I hope that Prince re-found his global acceptance to all types of well-meaning people himself.

Trigger warning: It's not always all about you. Yet you made it about me when you said “you likely are the problem therein” General statements can be made. They can be. Doesn’t make them right. I call it like I see it - prejudiced statements were made and unabashedly so. No one here is suggesting Prince was a hateful guy. No, it isn’t a suggestion, it’s an outright statement when the terms “homophobe” and “bigot” are thrown his way.

savvy said:

And I never made any judgements about the character of these folks. You do every time you use the words “homophobe” or “bigot”.

Ah, the old "People who abhor prejudice are just intolerant of other people's views" argument. The troll's favorite rhetorical weapon, never gets old.

[Edited 5/31/16 14:47pm]

dustoff said:

savvy said:

Ah, the old "People who abhor prejudice are just intolerant of other people's views" argument. The troll's favorite rhetorical weapon, never gets old.

[Edited 5/31/16 14:47pm]

Ah, the old "The left can't possibly engage in prejudicial behavior because it's not a part of the white sys gen patriarchy." The troll's favorite rhetorical weapon. Never gets old.

savvy said:

savvy said:

...And in that regard, The Westboro Baptist Church are really really good at being Christians. No. They’re not. You couldn't accuse them of being hypocrites. Sure I could. They represent everything contrary to Jesus’ teachings.

Now Islam on the other hand…ok…I have to stop again. That’s another subject.

savvy said:

DiscoBallz said:

Trigger warning: It's not always all about you. General statements can be made. I call it like I see it - prejudiced statements were made and unabashedly so. He corrected a reporter once and only once, to my knowledge, about the tone of some of those statements. No one here is suggesting Prince was a hateful guy. And sometimes well-meaning people are led astray in their beliefs. I hope that Prince re-found his global acceptance to all types of well-meaning people himself.

Trigger warning: It's not always all about you. Yet you made it about me when you said “you likely are the problem therein” General statements can be made. They can be. Doesn’t make them right. I call it like I see it - prejudiced statements were made and unabashedly so. No one here is suggesting Prince was a hateful guy. No, it isn’t a suggestion, it’s an outright statement when the terms “homophobe” and “bigot” are thrown his way.

Naw, I didn't make it about you at all. I made a general statement. That was a general statement. I'm sorry you took it personal, but that's about as far my empathy extends on that.

-

Unfortunately for you, mere use of the words "bigot" and "homophobe" (only one of which I ever used here) doesn't constitute those feelings on the part of the speaker. Struggle with that if you want.

uh huh

savvy said:

savvy said:

GirlBrother said:

savvy said:

They represent everything contrary to Jesus’ teachings.

If Jesus was the human embodiment of God, then whatever Jesus didn't teach, is pretty much covered in The Old Testament by God himself. It's almost like good cop/bad cop... And The Phelps don't wave banners saying "We Hate Fags". It's actually quite correct to say that the Christian God hates fags. I've always looked at non-heterosexual Christians as being stricken by some form of spiritual Stockholm Syndrome - or possibly just self-loathing masochists. savvy said:

Now Islam on the other hand…ok…I have to stop again. That’s another subject

It all seems pretty much the same to me.

Not really.

For example there is no prohibition against 'female homosexuality' in the Torah or anything before the Law, and outside of something Paul said in 1 verse in Romans, nothing else is said in the gospels or the letters.

there also is no actual prohibition against male homosexuality. There is though about male temple prostitutes ie Sodomites, it was all in connection with the worship of particular god. Which is what was happening in Sodom.

The Law was given to the Hebrews, and never meant for the non-Jews to live by unless they choose to. One reason you never see Jews going about to 'witness' to others.

Yeah it's an interesting one OP, I remember back in the early 90s there was a very prominent LGBTQIACDGSMTERF group where I lived whom I had a few friends part of, and they adjusted their views on Prince from the 80s to the mid-90s. Some of his early music struck a chord with them and his gender-fluidity resonated strongly for a time, but in the mid-90s he outed and became cisgendered and they fell off the acceptance train. Some of the oddest things I heard from the LGTVBBQ people were that Prince was either "too camp" or "too urban", so I think because his music crossed so many genres it made it difficult for them to identify with. By then House music and repetitive beats were all the rave (no pun intended), and P was starting to enter the Twilight zone, so the QUILTBAGs were redfining their identifies just as was beginning to redefine his.

[Edited 6/1/16 22:04pm]

If anyone is intersted in the actual facts of the views of JW's in relation to homosexuality (and therefore one must assume Prince's) have a look at the following links. I for one found it interesting that they insist on respect and view sexuality as only acceptable within the bounds of marraige. Therefore the argument is that any sexual activity outside this arrangement is viewed in the same light and each individual have the opportunity to chose their conduct.

https://www.jw.org/en/pub...sexuality/

https://www.jw.org/en/bib...sexuality/

I guess the point they are trying to make is that each individual has free will to make a choice and should not be hated because of the choice they make but just because and individual or group of individals decide that choice is the norm does not mean they have to accept that view above thier beliefs in the bible.

at least its consistent I guess whether you agree or not

[Edited 6/2/16 3:53am]

iloveyeshua said:

RiotPaisley said:

I can only speak for myself, but yeah his religion was hard to work with. I don't know what he honestly felt but I know what JWs think so... I could look past it for sure cuz i just love him and refuse to believe he honestly thought that. I will ignore any attempt to tell me otherwise. I definitely forgave him for some of the hurtful stuff I disagreed with and would have loved to talk about it with him.

In the end? He was an artist. So what if he personally disagreed with someone's lifestyle/sexual preference? He clearly had love for everyone as a human being. Isn't that enough? Disagreeing with a lifestyle preference doesn't make anyone hateful or mean. It just means they use their brain and are entitled to disagree. Freedom of speech, religion and the press. It's ok to agree to disagree. What's to forgive?

well said

gstq said:

oceancrayon said:

gstq said:

joeycocopuffs said:

SanMartin said:

GirlBrother said:

mechanicalemotion17 said:

joeycocopuffs said:

I'd like to add that while I was reading this old thread (Prince walks off in the middle of a photo shoot? <-- thread title) about P walking out of a Herb Ritts photoshoot because APPEARENTLY Herb complimented him of how sexy he looks?
and P told him to "burn the negatives"?

I hope he's not referring to his lifestyle, is he?

[Edited 5/29/16 23:52pm]

I seriously doubt this story. It is impossible that Prince would not be aware that men found him sexy. In fact, there is no doubt in my mind that he actively courted it

That seems rather odd considering he used Herb Ritt's photos for The Hits/B-Sides collection. It's hard to trust some of these stories, because some folks like to just make stuff up for attention.

Fwiw, 100% gay here and I was never physically attracted to Prince, lol.

As far as JW's and other religions go, it's not about them hating or fearing the LGBTQ community, it's more about them acting like they're somehow superior for being heterosexual, and the rest of us are somehow "flawed".

joeycocopuffs said:

I'd like to add that while I was reading this old thread (Prince walks off in the middle of a photo shoot? <-- thread title) about P walking out of a Herb Ritts photoshoot because APPEARENTLY Herb complimented him of how sexy he looks?
and P told him to "burn the negatives"?

I hope he's not referring to his lifestyle, is he?

[Edited 5/29/16 23:52pm]

Didn't Herb Ritts take these photos?

mechanicalemotion17 said: