Javi said:

skilletnomicrowave said:

Javi said: The label. I know Prince is not signed to a label but sometimes I wish he was.

If that's the case, the bootlegers would be infringing the rights of the label. And, like you say, Prince isn't signed to a label now...

-----

Look, what I don't get of many of the posts of this thread is how people who love Prince's music so much can be so disrespectful with the artist who has created that music, even to the point of saying: "He's to blame if he's bootleged. He should have released it officially". Come on, so Prince should release offcially what we as fans decide? This is delirious beyond words and reveals a complete misunderstandig of what artistic creation is. Prince should release what he chooses to do, period. I also wish he released his complete vault officially, I would gladly pay for it. But I must respect his artistic decisions, that would be the least expected for someone who loves Prince's music.

-----

To consider bootlegers as heroes, like many people do here, reveals a very poor appreciation of what art and music is. But hey, this is the sign of the times: we live in a society that thinks culture should be free, everything should be in the internet and everything should be free. Our society doesn't appreciate art and culture, and praising bootlegers is perfectly coherent with this.

[Edited 1/24/14 4:11am]

that is all

Byron said:

nursev said:

luv4u said: Really...Nothing else? Prince has changed this site. I mean look at the Gallery. That place use to be lovely before he caused change. I think he has obviously shut everybody else down and he needs the org for publicity.

...Have you SEEN the, um, "publicity" that the Org gives the man? lol...

Yes, Prince needs the Org to pronounce "Breakfast Can Wait" as the "worst song of his career" and the video as being a "low budget, ghetto-looking mess". That'll drive sales way up

Or maybe it's the threads that announce that Prince's career has been killed, or the numerous posts declaring that "nobody cares about Prince anymore". He needs these types of comments and PR to offset the generally positive things the mainstream media keeps saying about his releases.

I mean, you can't buy this kihf publicity.

This is exactly what I have been saying. Like the "Org" is some kind of positive publicity giant for Prince's career, please!!!

[Edited 1/24/14 14:45pm]

bigd74 said:

Gohi said:

KCOOL is actually a man. I know, we were all surprised when we found out too. He's just deeply obsessed with Prince in a very psycho-sexual way.

well that is freaky

novabrkr said:

Shit, some of us have even, like, 8th or 9th generation tapes. Hiss, rumble, phasing, all that.

Stymie said:

djThunderfunk said:

Some of us even still possess physical bootlegs from the days before trading digital files.

good god.

I was just wondering if that are shaking their fingers at others own boots.

D'oh! Yeah, that wouldn't be me...

[Edited 1/24/14 15:00pm]

djThunderfunk said:

Byron said:

You're rather limited in your understanding of how bootlegging/pirating can effect an artist's income.

Because we're not just talking unreleased music, we're also talking pirated copies of released music that can (and is) being sold by others with zero profit going to Prince. I know of many websites where I can download entire albums from throughout Prince's career. Should that be allowed? Is that money being taken out of Prince's pockets? Are these sites sending Prince royalty checks on every download?

As far as unreleased music, bootlegging dilutes the market if Prince ever does decide to release any of this stuff.

I didn't know of all of the sites mentioned, but on the several that I was aware of, none of them ever offered pirated copies of released music, for sale or for free.

Are you sure bootlegging dilutes the market for future releases?

Let's take a poll:

How many people here owned a bootleg of the Black Album before it's eventual release and therefore did not buy an official copy. Very few I suspect...

[Edited 1/24/14 13:34pm]

We're also talking about bootlegging in general, not just what pertains to those individual sites.

And I'll answer your poll: I definitely did not buy the Black Album because I already had bootlegs of the album in both a CD and a vinyl form. There was zero excitement for me when it was announced that the Black Album would be officially released...I had been listening to the songs for 5 years, no hurry to buy yet another copy.

Without the bootlegs? I would have been standing at the store's door at 6:00 am excited as hell to FINALLY get to hear the mysterious Black Album.

Stymie said:

djThunderfunk said:

Some of us even still possess physical bootlegs from the days before trading digital files.

good god.

I was just wondering if that are shaking their fingers at others own boots.

I already said I did lol...

But then again, I'm not chastizing anyone for buying a bootleg, I'm chastizing people for making the idiotic claim that Prince is in the wrong here for not releasing all his work, and that bootleggers are in the right because they are "filling a market" that they feel Prince isn't.

Byron said:

djThunderfunk said:

I didn't know of all of the sites mentioned, but on the several that I was aware of, none of them ever offered pirated copies of released music, for sale or for free.

Are you sure bootlegging dilutes the market for future releases?

Let's take a poll:

How many people here owned a bootleg of the Black Album before it's eventual release and therefore did not buy an official copy. Very few I suspect...

[Edited 1/24/14 13:34pm]

We're also talking about bootlegging in general, not just what pertains to those individual sites.

And I'll answer your poll: I definitely did not buy the Black Album because I already had bootlegs of the album in both a CD and a vinyl form. There was zero excitement for me when it was announced that the Black Album would be officially released...I had been listening to the songs for 5 years, no hurry to buy yet another copy.

Without the bootlegs? I would have been standing at the store's door at 6:00 am excited as hell to FINALLY get to hear the mysterious Black Album.

By the time it was officially released I'd already had 5 or 6 different bootlegs of the Black Album on vinyl & CD in an effort to upgrade the quality. That didn't stop me from picking up the official copy when it was released. It sounded better than even the best bootleg I've ever heard and it cost less than even the cheapest boot I had. So, it was a no brainer to me.

Besides, can't have a hole in the collection. That would not do.

[Edited 1/24/14 16:29pm]

I'm scared of him...lol...

RodeoSchro said:

Javi said:

Both of you have made very valuable contributions to the discussion. I agree with XxAxX position, but thanks to you both.

-----

I'm not an expert, but my job has led me to have some knowledge on intellectual property. And I'm a writer too, and that makes me quite sensitive to these issues.

[Edited 1/24/14 5:45am]

Thanks! The last big case I was involved in ended in 1996, so I am sure some technology has changed. But, I cannot imagine a defense attorney agreeing to a deposition by video conference. I just can't imagine any of the lawyers I know agreeing to question someone without being able to look in their eyes.

So if you can make Prince be physcially present for the deposition, then the other thing is that there is probably no possible way to schedule one deposition where 20 people, and at least 20 different lawyers, from potentially around the world can all appear at once. If I was a defense attorney, I'd tell Prince, "Hey - YOU sued all these people. Therefore, YOU have to realize that they can't all take advantage of their right to depose you at once, so you'd better be ready for multiple depositions."

That's what I'd say, but since I am not a lawyer, I could certainly be wrong. However, I'd sure do my best to inconvenience Prince, and starting with multiple depositions would be my first step.

But again, all that said I do of course believe that Prince is in the right here. He owns the rights to all his recordings and performances and no one has the right to sell or distribute them without his permission and/or compensating him.

I'm just looking at this from the other side, and as an intellectual exercise trying to figure out what the defendants could do.

The defense could object to a video depo and then it would be up to the judge to grant or deny the motion. Presumably the parties are in different cities so taking that into consideration the motion for video depo would most likely be granted since there would be no real reason that P would need to show up in person. However, if it went to trial he could still be compelled to appear in person at that time or risk being held in contempt.

But I think you were right the first time...there is no way in hell he's gonna pursue this to the point where he has to sit for any depos even if it was done by video. This is a guy who won't even let his interviews be recorded, The defense could possibly tie this case up for months with discovery and motions. I imagine that the army of black female lawyers he was bragging about a few months ago don't come cheap either.

I'm not a lawyer either and I don't know the specifics of this particular case so I couldn't say much more about it.

For someone who's not a lawyer your strategy sounds pretty close to how they operate.

TheFreakerFantastic said:

Looks like it could be hoax/fake to me or a ploy by Prince to get a reaction. The reason? It is very sloppily and carelessly written for a legal document (you can't sue people or direct a legal document to someone if you don't know their legal names).

Even if it is official, does he seriously expect to get $1 million from people just for sharing NOTE sharing (not making money from) concert recordings that he has also partly released via various websites before? It would be pennies at best and very hard to prove, as even his offical sites would have made nowhere near as much!

So part of me thinks this is just a bluff to scare them into shutting down, I doubt this would go to public court with all the negative press this would generate.

If he wants to crack down on bootleggers he needs to target those hardcore guys who have pressed CDs for years with impunity and make lots of money out of them, not people casually posting things on their blogs for free and therefore to the benefit of all fans. Targeting these bloggers with seemingly altruistic intentions is not wise,

With the dearth of Prince's music out there right now, no wonder people are turning to bootlegs to fill the gaps since the last album in 2010.

The solution? As I've always maintained - he needs release it himself in remastered quality and beat them at their own game, guaranteed millions and grateful fans instead of suing relatively poor people with altruistic intentions and generating a lot of unnecessary resentment.

FREE THE MUSIC !

(Anyone remember what he said back in the 90s "Trying to stop file sharing is like trying to stop the rain"..)

Wrong. You certainly can file a suit against a John Doe...obtaining a judgement is another story.

The wording of the complaint is pretty standard for cases like this.

Byron said:

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

OzlemUcucu said:

Because he's lazy. He doesn't even understand people are being fed up, because he doesn't want to listen. I'm worried about him. I don't think he's in good health (mentally) he's lonely.

Prince is not lonely! He has never been happier. This "lawsuit" is a smoke screen 4 awareness 2 HONOR his legacy & image of an ICON .

Not sure if you go soooo overboard with gushing just to get a rise out of people here or you actually worship Prince more than God. Kinda like a 12-13 year old girl with Justin Bieber or something. It's rather creepy. Or maybe you're thinking you'll get hotel accommodations and some front row seats too?

Been wanting to say that for a long time but to each their own. However, just into a few pages of this thread I couldn't stop myself anymore. The banners finally got to me.

I have no problem with bootlegs if they are shared. If Prince ain't making money off them NOBODY should. Then again Prince don't release squat in terms of the vault stuff or live concerts. So............

Honestly without the boots I probably wouldn't be as big of a fan. Much of it is better than his released work to me

Prince released a lot of music through Warner Bros. Typically the track listing for an album will change a few times before it's released. Songs get replaced, altered, etc. So Warner Bros potentally has some previously unrleased prince music lying around. If they decided to post that content on their web site for fans to download without Prince's permission, would it be okay for Prince to sue Warner Bros?

IMAX has a fully edited Prince concert movie that was never released. If they posted that on their web site for fans to download without Prince's permission, would it be okay for him to sue IMAX?

If the answer is yes to either of those, what exactly is different about this?

alandail said:

alandail said:

It's a shame that Prince is choosing to go out this way......a bitter,old man who's constantly on the attack.He should just let it be.All of this music is already OUT THERE and much of it has been circulating for decades.Even if he succeeds with these lawsuits,bootlegging won't stop.It's something that he can't control.His bootlegs will continue to circulate for the rest of his life and even after he's gone.Why try to stop the inevitable? He should be thankful and blessed that people are still into this music.He's made his millions.Sit back and grow old gracefully,and stop being a sourpuss

babynoz said:

TheFreakerFantastic said:

Looks like it could be hoax/fake to me or a ploy by Prince to get a reaction. The reason? It is very sloppily and carelessly written for a legal document (you can't sue people or direct a legal document to someone if you don't know their legal names).

Even if it is official, does he seriously expect to get $1 million from people just for sharing NOTE sharing (not making money from) concert recordings that he has also partly released via various websites before? It would be pennies at best and very hard to prove, as even his offical sites would have made nowhere near as much!

So part of me thinks this is just a bluff to scare them into shutting down, I doubt this would go to public court with all the negative press this would generate.

If he wants to crack down on bootleggers he needs to target those hardcore guys who have pressed CDs for years with impunity and make lots of money out of them, not people casually posting things on their blogs for free and therefore to the benefit of all fans. Targeting these bloggers with seemingly altruistic intentions is not wise,

With the dearth of Prince's music out there right now, no wonder people are turning to bootlegs to fill the gaps since the last album in 2010.

The solution? As I've always maintained - he needs release it himself in remastered quality and beat them at their own game, guaranteed millions and grateful fans instead of suing relatively poor people with altruistic intentions and generating a lot of unnecessary resentment.

FREE THE MUSIC !

(Anyone remember what he said back in the 90s "Trying to stop file sharing is like trying to stop the rain"..)

Wrong. You certainly can file a suit against a John Doe...obtaining a judgement is another story.

The wording of the complaint is pretty standard for cases like this.

Without a legal name and a an address for the defendants I don't quite see how they can target anyone with this, surely they'd have to do some more research as to the persons behind these sites to be able to reach them?! Ie, approach Google/ISPs to provide the operator's names. This is why I suspect it could be a bluff to scare the owners into site closure.

Stymie said:

Byron said:

I already said I did lol...

But then again, I'm not chastizing anyone for buying a bootleg, I'm chastizing people for making the idiotic claim that Prince is in the wrong here for not releasing all his work, and that bootleggers are in the right because they are "filling a market" that they feel Prince isn't.

I wasn't speaking about you Byron.

That's why I said "But then again, I'm not chastizing anyone for buying a bootleg"...that was me saying that you may not be counting me among the "finger waggers" lol.

Regarding the question of whether people here have bootlegs or not, I've already explained the huge difference, both moral and legal, between distributing music without the consent of the artist and owning a bootleg for private use.

---

Stymie, if you're looking for contradictions in those of us who criticize bootlegers but own them, you should probably look at yourself and search for your own contradictions:

---

- Do you appreciate Prince as an artist and still approve of people bootleging his music?

- Do you think bootlegers for free are doing a good job but bootlegers for profit are despicable people?

---

To me, those are the contradictions.

[Edited 1/25/14 4:36am]

[Edited 1/25/14 4:37am]

yeah,there are definitely some contradictions here

Some fans take Prince's side and criticize the bootleggers,yet many of these same fans have tons of Prince bootleg recordings we can't have it both ways.Is it right or wrong?

SoulAlive said:

I don't think the whole question about bootlegs is any different from cracked software. Yeah, most people that are into computers have used cracks and couldn't even see themselves doing without them. Everybody knows that it's illegal and "not right", but it's so widespread that very few people actually care. Using cracks is about as serious crime as jaywalking in most people's minds. Regardless, many question the motives behind the groups that do the cracks and wonder if they're not scared that they'll get busted oneday.

So, I don't think it's really a "for" or "against" type of a question. You'll just have to use your judgement when your involvement in the whole things goes too far. Distributing the umpteenth concert recording by Prince? Eh, you'd have to be nuts to suggest that it's going to harm him financially when there are hundreds similar recordings out there already. Uploading the new album on the Internet months before its release? Yeah, that's a different thing altogether and there you could actually "show some loyalty" to the artist you admire.

Javi said:

skilletnomicrowave said:

Yes I am critical of fans who buy or download bootlegs.

Here is my personal history of buying bootlegs.

When Lovesexy was released the NYTimes ran a story

comparing it with copy of the black album. First I ever

heard of the music. Months later I was in St. Marks place

in NY and a vendor was selling cassettes for $10. I bought one.

Later that year I actively looked for bootlegs and spent

about $75 on copies. All were vinyl. There were no bootleg

cds at that point.They were total shit and I decided then

I would never waste my $ on bootlegs again. I have never

downloaded bootlegs. Never.

The bootlegs I bought were prior to Prince expressing his

displeasure with the practice. I respect his desires and don't

participate in downloading.

Because I don't download I have never heard wonderful ass,

moonbeam levels, possessed, big tree or any of the numerous

songs many Prince fans are familiar with.

thedoorkeeper said: