novabrkr said:

What's sort of shitty with this case is that just a year ago he was releasing music himself to the net as if it had been botlegged. The whole "3rd Eye Girl" thing started with the "international art thief" gimmick and it made it seem he was finally okay with people distributing his live performances and rarities online. In other words, he was himself doing the same even if he was the copyright holder (nobody really was sure what the whole thing was about for a rather long period of time).

Why exactly should you be allowed to set an example with that sort of behaviour yourself and then proceed to sue others that follow you?

He even released the Crystal Ball set as "bootlegs". But that doesn't mean he's giving anyone ELSE the right to release bootlegs. He still owns the material.

RodeoSchro said:

novabrkr said:

What's sort of shitty with this case is that just a year ago he was releasing music himself to the net as if it had been botlegged. The whole "3rd Eye Girl" thing started with the "international art thief" gimmick and it made it seem he was finally okay with people distributing his live performances and rarities online. In other words, he was himself doing the same even if he was the copyright holder (nobody really was sure what the whole thing was about for a rather long period of time).

Why exactly should you be allowed to set an example with that sort of behaviour yourself and then proceed to sue others that follow you?

He even released the Crystal Ball set as "bootlegs". But that doesn't mean he's giving anyone ELSE the right to release bootlegs. He still owns the material.

What he did a year ago strongly implied that he was starting to be cool with people sharing his material online.

Crystal Ball was not released as "bootlegs". You could buy it from regular record stores and order it directly from him via mail. That's hardly the same as sharing material online.

thedoorkeeper said:

udo said:

By enjoying stuff the respect grows.

By not offering stuff he neglects a market.

And even with current copyright laws, which are a fraud, the 'respect' ends after a while. The rights end. The stuff is in public domain.

Please do think about that.

What I see is justification for immature and selfish behavior.

Selfish? Mr Prince is sueing sites that are sharing stuff, remember?

Immature? See my reply to Byron.

I do not need justification.

You preceive the world around you as a given thing.

A thing that therefore should be 'right' and 'just'.

It ain't.

Reality has been perverted into ways betond your comprehension, as it appears, so you condemn me instead of allowing yourself to enjoy stuff.

Certain people dreamt up 'rights' and 'property' out of thin air. Some others went along with that.

And now whole industries thrive on that magic bubble of `vapour` that normally dances between one's ears.

In an age where we still cannot cure even cancer reliably, you want to assert that your scenario is just?

bigd74 said:

tab32792 said:

That's what I'm saying. No way you're a REAL prince fan with no boots

I definitely seen her talking about unreleased songs in various threads. No way does she have no boots [Edited 1/22/14 7:52am]

KCOOL is actually a man. I know, we were all surprised when we found out too. He's just deeply obsessed with Prince in a very psycho-sexual way.

XxAxX said:

By not offering stuff he neglects a market.

?! by your reasoning, i should have capitulated when that pimp at the bus stop tried to talk me into working for him. stop neglecting your market potential girl, you sitting on a fortune!

it is MY decision what to market and how. mine alone.

The stuff is in public domain.

not even close

You are twisting words but don't succeed:

Releasing music is not a crime yet for mr prince.

In your area pimping out women is a crime.

And by denying the reality (still, for as long as it lastst) that stuff ultimately ends up in the public domain you assert your own twisted reality.

thedoorkeeper said:

Heres an idea - sit your parents down in front of a computer & let

them read all the posts on this so they can see both sides of the

situation and ask them if bootlegging is cool.

Oh wait never mind - I'm sure you don't give a shit what they think anyway.

You drag in all sorts of stuff that deviate from the main issue here.

Mr Prince does not release stuff found on bootlegs. (mostly)

Yet he wants to claim losses.

You predict how he will plead in court.

you completely missed my point: in using the parable of the pimp and my pussy, i was elaborating on my right to retain full personal pussy control and how it is my right and mine alone to control who accesses me, i.e., who 'distributes' my works and services.
*

in addition, your remark concerning public domain obviously does not apply in this case since prince is currently protecting his copyright vis a vis this legal action.

XxAxX said:

you completely missed my point: in using the parable of the pimp and my pussy, i was elaborating on my right to retain full personal pussy control and how it is my right and mine alone to control who accesses me, i.e., who 'distributes' my works and services.
*

in addition, your remark concerning public domain obviously does not apply in this case since prince is currently protecting his copyright vis a vis this legal action.

this is too weird. who actually logs on and defends online piracy on the very website devoted to the pop star they claim to be a fan of?? ARRGGGHHHHH i feel an attack of ALL CAPS COMING ON. i must leave now. god bless us every one

Gohi said:

bigd74 said:

tab32792 said: I definitely seen her talking about unreleased songs in various threads. No way does she have no boots [Edited 1/22/14 7:52am]

KCOOL is actually a man. I know, we were all surprised when we found out too. He's just deeply obsessed with Prince in a very psycho-sexual way.

well that is freaky

nursev said:

Byron said:

...Have you SEEN the, um, "publicity" that the Org gives the man? lol...

Yes, Prince needs the Org to pronounce "Breakfast Can Wait" as the "worst song of his career" and the video as being a "low budget, ghetto-looking mess". That'll drive sales way up

Or maybe it's the threads that announce that Prince's career has been killed, or the numerous posts declaring that "nobody cares about Prince anymore". He needs these types of comments and PR to offset the generally positive things the mainstream media keeps saying about his releases.

I mean, you can't buy this kind of publicity.

Well...all that keeps folks interested in him. I truly believe that most of his fan base does check in here every once in a while for news. Some people dont like funkenberry.

Whether I like Funkenberry or not--I never would have heard of him without the Org--or any of Prince's activities of the last year, honestly. Sure, there's been press coverage, but even though I receive daily mulitple emails daily from Rolling Stone and Spin (which have covered stuff--but I've only known it from the Org), those emails never mention Prince (until today, actually--Spin's got an article on the lawsuit that they did include in the update). How did I know the Livestreams existed (I didn't get to see many when they streamed because of Prince's choices about timing and archiving, but I did see a few)? How did I know about the 3rdeyegirl sites? Why does Prince have any of my money from this past year (and I've bought everything he's sold)?

BECAUSE OF THE ORG (and to a lesser degree some of the dead blogs, which also covered news).

XxAxX said:

this is too weird. who actually logs on and defends online piracy on the very website devoted to the pop star they claim to be a fan of?? ARRGGGHHHHH i feel an attack of ALL CAPS COMING ON. i must leave now. god bless us every one

It is weird indeed. "I'm the biggest Prince fan, but hey, Prince, do fuck off and give us your music! It belongs to us! Bootlegers who distribute your music without your consent are the new Robin Hoods! You afro dwarf!"

bigd74 said:

Gohi said:

KCOOL is actually a man. I know, we were all surprised when we found out too. He's just deeply obsessed with Prince in a very psycho-sexual way.

well that is freaky

Oh God, this thread is starting to be very funny.

Byron said:

XxAxX said:

By not offering stuff he neglects a market.

?! by your reasoning, i should have capitulated when that pimp at the bus stop tried to talk me into working for him. stop neglecting your market potential girl, you sitting on a fortune!

it is MY decision what to market and how. mine alone.

The stuff is in public domain.

not even close

The thought process of some fans here on the Org is mindblowing at times ...

I think some Prince fans feel they are entitled to his unreleased music. I own bootlegs of some of his stuff but if he shut down bootleggers completely until the end of time not one cell of my body would be upset. That's because I don't feel like I'm entitled to have (or even listen to) his unreleased work...if it's available (one way or another) and I'm interested enough to get it, I'll go for it. But if it's NOT available it never occurs to me to get pissed off at Prince for it.

And I love the faux concern about his career lol..."The bootlegs are what keep people interested, it's what makes new fans!"...Nobody's gonna jump ship because they can't get bootlegs anymore

Javi said:

Rebeljuice said:

skilletnomicrowave said:

nursev said: Lol, there was no need to snip. The address wasn't real... however I'm sure the IP was

Address was real. And youre right, the IP address would be traceable too. Still couldnt give a rat's arse about it.

It would be great to see Prince and his lawyers try and negotiate the Zambian legal system.

I'll take him on a tour through Kamwala Market, a stench pit of disease and putrified mud (high heels not advised) where somewhere in the middle of the sprawling mess is a stall selling CD-Rs, with artwork, all pretending to be original pressings. Amongst those pirated copies are several Prince albums (pre 1988 because no one knows any of his stuff post Lovesexy) and occasionally a liveshow bootleg or two. I bought the Black Album there in 1989 on cassette.

Alas, there is nowhere near the number of CD-Rs that, say, Michael Jackson has or Usher or [add bland RnB artist name here]. But he is there nonetheless. And is the stall legal? By Zambian copyright laws, of which there are none, yes it is (trading licences aside).

Personally, I dont frequent this market these days, the stench is stomach churning. But I do use the internet and share in the bootleg trade. I dont share any official stuff out of respect for the artist but live shows are fair game. Prince doesnt make money off them, there is no way of paying him for them and, if anything, it spreads the word about his live performances and, just might get people to go and see him live who otherwise would not have thought twice about it.

Mind you, even the live boots are getting pretty tedious now, so they may be doing more harm than good in spreading the word about his performances. Maybe thats why he is suing now. He knows its all sub par lately and knows it aint helping him.

Anyway, my offer still stands. Prince, if you want to come after me then let me know and I will advise you on the inoculations, visa and permit requirements and how to avoid being trampled by an elephant before coming. Also, bring flat shoes. This is Africa.

Completely agree with all of this, but especially the bolded part. The recent live boots are so yawn inspiring. Some of the 3EG stuff sounds sort of interesting, but is in such piss poor quality (and let's be honest, they're not the Revolution or the SOTT band or the Lovesexy band after all) that it's not worth taking up the space on my hard drive.

Why do people keep ignoring the owning bootlegs question?

Stymie said:

Why do people keep ignoring the owning bootlegs question?

which question exactly

udo said:

Byron said:

Yeah, Prince should not have any say so over his career or his work...we fans should have ultimate say-so. Our desires should trump everything. Fuck Prince for not realizing that.

Yeah, so if Prince decides not to earn money that is his right to do so. You are right.

But then he should not complain (sue...) and pretend that some people make him lose money.

Fuck certain people for not understanding that.

You're rather limited in your understanding of how bootlegging/pirating can effect an artist's income.

Because we're not just talking unreleased music, we're also talking pirated copies of released music that can (and is) being sold by others with zero profit going to Prince. I know of many websites where I can download entire albums from throughout Prince's career. Should that be allowed? Is that money being taken out of Prince's pockets? Are these sites sending Prince royalty checks on every download?

As far as unreleased music, bootlegging dilutes the market if Prince ever does decide to release any of this stuff. And even if Prince never released any of his unreleased music, NOBODY ALIVE SHOULD MAKE MONEY FROM HIS ART EXCEPT HIM. Please tell me you believe this to be true. If anyone started selling photographs I've taken but kept on my hard drive, or allowing them to be downloaded for free from numerous sites, I'd be suing their ass like a mf'er. Don't take shit I created without my permission and then insult me by rationalizing why it's ok that you did lol...

Bottom line: does anyone here not believe that Prince alone should have the right to dictate what music he creates gets released, and what does not? Seriously, raise your hand if you do not believe this...

Byron said:

The thought process of some fans here on the Org is mindblowing at times ...

I think some Prince fans feel they are entitled to his unreleased music. I own bootlegs of some of his stuff but if he shut down bootleggers completely until the end of time not one cell of my body would be upset. That's because I don't feel like I'm entitled to have (or even listen to) his unreleased work...if it's available (one way or another) and I'm interested enough to get it, I'll go for it. But if it's NOT available it never occurs to me to get pissed off at Prince for it.

And I love the faux concern about his career lol..."The bootlegs are what keep people interested, it's what makes new fans!"...Nobody's gonna jump ship because they can't get bootlegs anymore

Although (as I've stated multiple times on here) the recent live bootlegs make me LESS, not MORE excited about Prince's music ... the live stuff from the 80s/90s (and from the ONA tour in the earli 00's) as well as the unreleased tracks from the 80s/90s absolutely kept me going as a Prince fan during from 1998-2001 and then between 2006 and 2009, and then from 2010 to current. Without them, I would listen to very little Prince. But they get me excited again, and then I pull out the old albums to hear the studio versions.

theblueangel said:

Byron said:

The thought process of some fans here on the Org is mindblowing at times ...

I think some Prince fans feel they are entitled to his unreleased music. I own bootlegs of some of his stuff but if he shut down bootleggers completely until the end of time not one cell of my body would be upset. That's because I don't feel like I'm entitled to have (or even listen to) his unreleased work...if it's available (one way or another) and I'm interested enough to get it, I'll go for it. But if it's NOT available it never occurs to me to get pissed off at Prince for it.

And I love the faux concern about his career lol..."The bootlegs are what keep people interested, it's what makes new fans!"...Nobody's gonna jump ship because they can't get bootlegs anymore

Although (as I've stated multiple times on here) the recent live bootlegs make me LESS, not MORE excited about Prince's music ... the live stuff from the 80s/90s (and from the ONA tour in the earli 00's) as well as the unreleased tracks from the 80s/90s absolutely kept me going as a Prince fan during from 1998-2001 and then between 2006 and 2009, and then from 2010 to current. Without them, I would listen to very little Prince. But they get me excited again, and then I pull out the old albums to hear the studio versions.

Everytime Prince puts out a CD, Prince fans get excited. Maybe without the bootlegs you might not pay as much attention to Prince during those years you mentioned, but the absence of bootlegs in your life wouldn't make you stop being a fan. Your enjoyment (or lack of enjoyment) of his current music would be the cause of that. There's nothing on that bootleg of a concert in 1993 that's gonna make you more excited about the 3rdEyeGirl album...

[Edited 1/24/14 12:00pm]

Byron said:

udo said:

Yeah, so if Prince decides not to earn money that is his right to do so. You are right.

But then he should not complain (sue...) and pretend that some people make him lose money.

Fuck certain people for not understanding that.

You're rather limited in your understanding of how bootlegging/pirating can effect an artist's income.

Because we're not just talking unreleased music, we're also talking pirated copies of released music that can (and is) being sold by others with zero profit going to Prince. I know of many websites where I can download entire albums from throughout Prince's career. Should that be allowed? Is that money being taken out of Prince's pockets? Are these sites sending Prince royalty checks on every download?

As far as unreleased music, bootlegging dilutes the market if Prince ever does decide to release any of this stuff. And even if Prince never released any of his unreleased music, NOBODY ALIVE SHOULD MAKE MONEY FROM HIS ART EXCEPT HIM. Please tell me you believe this to be true. If anyone started selling photographs I've taken but kept on my hard drive, or allowing them to be downloaded for free from numerous sites, I'd be suing their ass like a mf'er. Don't take shit I created without my permission and then insult me by rationalizing why it's ok that you did lol...

Bottom line: does anyone here not believe that Prince alone should have the right to dictate what music he creates gets released, and what does not? Seriously, raise your hand if you do not believe this...

You're making very good points in your threads. I'd just like to add that the problem goes beyond money. You've said it too in other posts. It's more an intellectual and artistic problem than merely an economic one. If Prince doesn't want a part of his oeuvre to be known, for whatever reason, he has, of course, the right to put it in his vault and leave it there forever and ever. It's almost ridiculous to have to state this, but many interventions of the thread make clear that people don't think so, so let's repeat the obvious!

-----

I say this again because if we reduce the problem to an economic one, people would say that these bootlegers were Robin Hoods because they gave for free what they had heroically stolen to the afro ogre.

RodeoSchro said:

Javi said:

Both of you have made very valuable contributions to the discussion. I agree with XxAxX position, but thanks to you both.

-----

I'm not an expert, but my job has led me to have some knowledge on intellectual property. And I'm a writer too, and that makes me quite sensitive to these issues.

[Edited 1/24/14 5:45am]

Thanks! The last big case I was involved in ended in 1996, so I am sure some technology has changed. But, I cannot imagine a defense attorney agreeing to a deposition by video conference. I just can't imagine any of the lawyers I know agreeing to question someone without being able to look in their eyes.

So if you can make Prince be physcially present for the deposition, then the other thing is that there is probably no possible way to schedule one deposition where 20 people, and at least 20 different lawyers, from potentially around the world can all appear at once. If I was a defense attorney, I'd tell Prince, "Hey - YOU sued all these people. Therefore, YOU have to realize that they can't all take advantage of their right to depose you at once, so you'd better be ready for multiple depositions."

That's what I'd say, but since I am not a lawyer, I could certainly be wrong. However, I'd sure do my best to inconvenience Prince, and starting with multiple depositions would be my first step.

But again, all that said I do of course believe that Prince is in the right here. He owns the rights to all his recordings and performances and no one has the right to sell or distribute them without his permission and/or compensating him.

I'm just looking at this from the other side, and as an intellectual exercise trying to figure out what the defendants could do.

I have some theoretical notions on copyright, but I don't know nothing about the practical side of all this, so your post and XxAxX's have been of great interest to me. Also, I had a big laugh with the possibility of the deposition being leaked! By the way, there's a Prince bootleg called Deposition. A great bootleg, actually. He really should take Deposition to the deposition as an evidence.

[Edited 1/24/14 12:28pm]

Looks like it could be hoax/fake to me or a ploy by Prince to get a reaction. The reason? It is very sloppily and carelessly written for a legal document (you can't sue people or direct a legal document to someone if you don't know their legal names).

Even if it is official, does he seriously expect to get $1 million from people just for sharing NOTE sharing (not making money from) concert recordings that he has also partly released via various websites before? It would be pennies at best and very hard to prove, as even his offical sites would have made nowhere near as much!

So part of me thinks this is just a bluff to scare them into shutting down, I doubt this would go to public court with all the negative press this would generate.

If he wants to crack down on bootleggers he needs to target those hardcore guys who have pressed CDs for years with impunity and make lots of money out of them, not people casually posting things on their blogs for free and therefore to the benefit of all fans. Targeting these bloggers with seemingly altruistic intentions is not wise,

With the dearth of Prince's music out there right now, no wonder people are turning to bootlegs to fill the gaps since the last album in 2010.

The solution? As I've always maintained - he needs release it himself in remastered quality and beat them at their own game, guaranteed millions and grateful fans instead of suing relatively poor people with altruistic intentions and generating a lot of unnecessary resentment.

FREE THE MUSIC !

(Anyone remember what he said back in the 90s "Trying to stop file sharing is like trying to stop the rain"..)

Byron said:

You're rather limited in your understanding of how bootlegging/pirating can effect an artist's income.

Because we're not just talking unreleased music, we're also talking pirated copies of released music that can (and is) being sold by others with zero profit going to Prince. I know of many websites where I can download entire albums from throughout Prince's career. Should that be allowed? Is that money being taken out of Prince's pockets? Are these sites sending Prince royalty checks on every download?

As far as unreleased music, bootlegging dilutes the market if Prince ever does decide to release any of this stuff.

I didn't know of all of the sites mentioned, but on the several that I was aware of, none of them ever offered pirated copies of released music, for sale or for free.

Are you sure bootlegging dilutes the market for future releases?

Let's take a poll:

How many people here owned a bootleg of the Black Album before it's eventual release and therefore did not buy an official copy. Very few I suspect...

[Edited 1/24/14 13:34pm]

Does anybody remember when he said this:

"And just like Flo, now U know
Talkin' another 10 million every time they want this flow
And it's good 2 go
Cuz I don't check 4 critics if they checkin' 4 my ego
So come 2 the show
And bring a tape recorder cuz U oughta have a copy of the:
Yo, wait a minute - no!
In 1999 I'll be free, so:"

Oh, wait... that was on a bootleg, so, I shouldn't've heard that I guess.

bigd74 said:

Stymie said:

Why do people keep ignoring the owning bootlegs question?

which question exactly

Does everyone on this thread possess bootlegs?

Stymie said:

bigd74 said:

which question exactly

Does everyone on this thread possess bootlegs?

Some of us even still possess physical bootlegs from the days before trading digital files.

djThunderfunk said:

Stymie said:

Does everyone on this thread possess bootlegs?

Some of us even still possess physical bootlegs from the days before trading digital files.

good god.

I was just wondering if that are shaking their fingers at others own boots.

Shit, some of us have even, like, 8th or 9th generation tapes. Hiss, rumble, phasing, all that.