hhhhdmt said:

TrevorAyer said:

those first records were sold because prince was a one man band .. not cuz the music was all that great .. that was the marketing plan .. you think anyone is gonna mention it if someone else handles a drum part here and there?

wouldn't be a one man band anymore would it?

[Edited 11/23/11 21:20pm]

absolutely. A song as catchy as "I wanna be your lover" would have never been a hit if people didnt know Prince was a one man band. I feel for you isnt a great song either.

and what exactly on "for you" is so fucking great aside from "soft and wet" (A COLLABORATION)? prince was being sold as a one man band from the start ... the first record was more of a curiosity of his multi instrument talent. i don't believe for a second that prince band didn't help construct a lot of what ended up on "prince" regardless if prince let them play on the record or not .. "I wanna be your lover" would never had been made if "for you" didn't catch peoples interest being marketed as a one man band .. "prince" was the one man band plus good songs .. where as "for you" was mostly just about the one man band .. and Yes "I wanna be your lover" got MORE interest because he was a one man band .. its a good song .. but there are lots of good songs that don't have a gimmick to put them over .. the one man band thing was the gimmick and again, it is very possible that more collaboration occured than is credited due to needing the one man band gimmick to gain the songs more interest. its marketing .. prince had his moments going solo but always shined a little brighter when he collaborated .. prince always got more credit than was fair to those who busted ass to prop him up ..

TrevorAyer said:

hhhhdmt said:

absolutely. A song as catchy as "I wanna be your lover" would have never been a hit if people didnt know Prince was a one man band. I feel for you isnt a great song either.

and what exactly on "for you" is so fucking great aside from "soft and wet" (A COLLABORATION)? prince was being sold as a one man band from the start ... the first record was more of a curiosity of his multi instrument talent. i don't believe for a second that prince band didn't help construct a lot of what ended up on "prince" regardless if prince let them play on the record or not .. "I wanna be your lover" would never had been made if "for you" didn't catch peoples interest being marketed as a one man band .. "prince" was the one man band plus good songs .. where as "for you" was mostly just about the one man band .. and Yes "I wanna be your lover" got MORE interest because he was a one man band .. its a good song .. but there are lots of good songs that don't have a gimmick to put them over .. the one man band thing was the gimmick and again, it is very possible that more collaboration occured than is credited due to needing the one man band gimmick to gain the songs more interest. its marketing .. prince had his moments going solo but always shined a little brighter when he collaborated .. prince always got more credit than was fair to those who busted ass to prop him up ..

It doesnt matter what you believe. Prince wrote plenty of great songs on his own which were not collaborations. Yes "I wanna be your lover" is all Prince whether you want to accept it or not. And just because his band members co wrote a few songs with him, it doesnt mean they busted their ass, he busted his in order to succeed. And what ended up on Prince is his work, not the band. I know its hard for you to accept that he has written many masterpieces on his own, but its completely true, regardless of your denials.

And the one man band thing is not a gimmick, he is a one man band whether you want to accept the fact or not.

By the way, it is well known and well accepted that Prince wrote "When Doves Cry" on his own, but hey according to trevor, that must have been a "collaboration" too. ICNTTPOYM, IIWYGF, Adore, yeah Prince didnt write them, all of them were colloborations.

[Edited 11/24/11 23:38pm]

[Edited 11/24/11 23:54pm]

TrevorAyer said:

hhhhdmt said:

absolutely. A song as catchy as "I wanna be your lover" would have never been a hit if people didnt know Prince was a one man band. I feel for you isnt a great song either.

and what exactly on "for you" is so fucking great aside from "soft and wet" (A COLLABORATION)? prince was being sold as a one man band from the start ... the first record was more of a curiosity of his multi instrument talent. i don't believe for a second that prince band didn't help construct a lot of what ended up on "prince" regardless if prince let them play on the record or not .. "I wanna be your lover" would never had been made if "for you" didn't catch peoples interest being marketed as a one man band .. "prince" was the one man band plus good songs .. where as "for you" was mostly just about the one man band .. and Yes "I wanna be your lover" got MORE interest because he was a one man band .. its a good song .. but there are lots of good songs that don't have a gimmick to put them over .. the one man band thing was the gimmick and again, it is very possible that more collaboration occured than is credited due to needing the one man band gimmick to gain the songs more interest. its marketing .. prince had his moments going solo but always shined a little brighter when he collaborated .. prince always got more credit than was fair to those who busted ass to prop him up ..

I agree he probably rearranged and polished ideas that came out of jams from band rehearses. But it's also quite possible that those ideas didn't sound like anything but a decent jam to anyone else in the band. Prince was the master of putting this together. Whether he put together something that was almost 100% the same already, or putting together puzzles like the genuis he is. I've had a few rehearses with my band, where we'll do something hot, and none of the others are able to see the concept in what we do, even though they think it's hot. It's getting the greater picture and seing potentials in magic moments. His sponge brain could soak up about anything he heard, and play it in the studio afterwards. Even maybe forgetting who played each part. Maybe hearing something, then thinking he made it. Brains that works in that kind if capacity is making everything others do into their own. Several members has mentioned his ability to just copy something with ease, and use in in another context, put a twist on it, and throw his own signature sound on the top of it.

Replica said:

TrevorAyer said:

and what exactly on "for you" is so fucking great aside from "soft and wet" (A COLLABORATION)? prince was being sold as a one man band from the start ... the first record was more of a curiosity of his multi instrument talent. i don't believe for a second that prince band didn't help construct a lot of what ended up on "prince" regardless if prince let them play on the record or not .. "I wanna be your lover" would never had been made if "for you" didn't catch peoples interest being marketed as a one man band .. "prince" was the one man band plus good songs .. where as "for you" was mostly just about the one man band .. and Yes "I wanna be your lover" got MORE interest because he was a one man band .. its a good song .. but there are lots of good songs that don't have a gimmick to put them over .. the one man band thing was the gimmick and again, it is very possible that more collaboration occured than is credited due to needing the one man band gimmick to gain the songs more interest. its marketing .. prince had his moments going solo but always shined a little brighter when he collaborated .. prince always got more credit than was fair to those who busted ass to prop him up ..

I agree he probably rearranged and polished ideas that came out of jams from band rehearses. But it's also quite possible that those ideas didn't sound like anything but a decent jam to anyone else in the band. Prince was the master of putting this together. Whether he put together something that was almost 100% the same already, or putting together puzzles like the genuis he is. I've had a few rehearses with my band, where we'll do something hot, and none of the others are able to see the concept in what we do, even though they think it's hot. It's getting the greater picture and seing potentials in magic moments. His sponge brain could soak up about anything he heard, and play it in the studio afterwards. Even maybe forgetting who played each part. Maybe hearing something, then thinking he made it. Brains that works in that kind if capacity is making everything others do into their own. Several members has mentioned his ability to just copy something with ease, and use in in another context, put a twist on it, and throw his own signature sound on the top of it.

yup totally agree .. i've had a few bands myself and i get pissed when other people come up with cool parts and then cant remember them and i have to tell them how to play the part they came up with .. but yeah .. a lot of those early songs had a rock feel and arrangement .. even tho they were pop songs .. they really 'feel' like they got worked out with a band first .. theres is usually a noticeable difference between a totally fresh song strait to studio and a song that has been played out a lot with a live full band and develops a certain feel along the way before being recorded

hhhhdmt said:

TrevorAyer said:

and what exactly on "for you" is so fucking great aside from "soft and wet" (A COLLABORATION)? prince was being sold as a one man band from the start ... the first record was more of a curiosity of his multi instrument talent. i don't believe for a second that prince band didn't help construct a lot of what ended up on "prince" regardless if prince let them play on the record or not .. "I wanna be your lover" would never had been made if "for you" didn't catch peoples interest being marketed as a one man band .. "prince" was the one man band plus good songs .. where as "for you" was mostly just about the one man band .. and Yes "I wanna be your lover" got MORE interest because he was a one man band .. its a good song .. but there are lots of good songs that don't have a gimmick to put them over .. the one man band thing was the gimmick and again, it is very possible that more collaboration occured than is credited due to needing the one man band gimmick to gain the songs more interest. its marketing .. prince had his moments going solo but always shined a little brighter when he collaborated .. prince always got more credit than was fair to those who busted ass to prop him up ..

It doesnt matter what you believe. Prince wrote plenty of great songs on his own which were not collaborations. Yes "I wanna be your lover" is all Prince whether you want to accept it or not. And just because his band members co wrote a few songs with him, it doesnt mean they busted their ass, he busted his in order to succeed. And what ended up on Prince is his work, not the band. I know its hard for you to accept that he has written many masterpieces on his own, but its completely true, regardless of your denials.

And the one man band thing is not a gimmick, he is a one man band whether you want to accept the fact or not.

By the way, it is well known and well accepted that Prince wrote "When Doves Cry" on his own, but hey according to trevor, that must have been a "collaboration" too. ICNTTPOYM, IIWYGF, Adore, yeah Prince didnt write them, all of them were colloborations.

[Edited 11/24/11 23:38pm]

[Edited 11/24/11 23:54pm]

yes it does matter what i believe .. just fyi .. i always forget how you like to put words i did not say into my mouth .. thanks for the reminder that you can't hold a real conversation and have to make up my end of the conversation so you can argue with yourself and feel validated .. i have not mentioned "when doves cry" .. the only point i will make in regards to your post is that i am sure the band that toured those "solo" records while prince got paid and laid and famous and they remained mostly anonymous, feel like they "busted their ass" .. anywhoo .. yer not makin much sense as usual .. cya

TrevorAyer said:

hhhhdmt said:

It doesnt matter what you believe. Prince wrote plenty of great songs on his own which were not collaborations. Yes "I wanna be your lover" is all Prince whether you want to accept it or not. And just because his band members co wrote a few songs with him, it doesnt mean they busted their ass, he busted his in order to succeed. And what ended up on Prince is his work, not the band. I know its hard for you to accept that he has written many masterpieces on his own, but its completely true, regardless of your denials.

And the one man band thing is not a gimmick, he is a one man band whether you want to accept the fact or not.

By the way, it is well known and well accepted that Prince wrote "When Doves Cry" on his own, but hey according to trevor, that must have been a "collaboration" too. ICNTTPOYM, IIWYGF, Adore, yeah Prince didnt write them, all of them were colloborations.

[Edited 11/24/11 23:38pm]

[Edited 11/24/11 23:54pm]

yes it does matter what i believe .. just fyi .. i always forget how you like to put words i did not say into my mouth .. thanks for the reminder that you can't hold a real conversation and have to make up my end of the conversation so you can argue with yourself and feel validated .. i have not mentioned "when doves cry" .. the only point i will make in regards to your post is that i am sure the band that toured those "solo" records while prince got paid and laid and famous and they remained mostly anonymous, feel like they "busted their ass" .. anywhoo .. yer not makin much sense as usual .. cya

They are solo records, and prince got paid because he wrote most of the songs himself. There is no evidence whatsoever that most of the stuff was co written. And they were paid musicians, they were not doing it for free. Since the bandmembers did not write most of the songs, they are not as famous (nor as talented) as Prince. You are the one who makes no sense and keeps repeating lies. And yes it does not matter what you believe. (remember you did believe that Prince needed a click track to record drum parts and you were 100 percent wrong on that one)

[Edited 11/25/11 21:05pm]

hhhhdmt said:

TrevorAyer said:

yes it does matter what i believe .. just fyi .. i always forget how you like to put words i did not say into my mouth .. thanks for the reminder that you can't hold a real conversation and have to make up my end of the conversation so you can argue with yourself and feel validated .. i have not mentioned "when doves cry" .. the only point i will make in regards to your post is that i am sure the band that toured those "solo" records while prince got paid and laid and famous and they remained mostly anonymous, feel like they "busted their ass" .. anywhoo .. yer not makin much sense as usual .. cya

They are solo records, and prince got paid because he wrote most of the songs himself. There is no evidence whatsoever that most of the stuff was co written. And they were paid musicians, they were not doing it for free. Since the bandmembers did not write most of the songs, they are not as famous (nor as talented) as Prince. You are the one who makes no sense and keeps repeating lies. And yes it does not matter what you believe. (remember you did believe that Prince needed a click track to record drum parts and you were 100 percent wrong on that one)

[Edited 11/25/11 21:05pm]

no all i remember is you like to make up complete bullshit and then say that it's what I said when it isn't .. prince plays along with his drum machine all the time .. a drum machine has a metronome .. he has a few funky sweet spots at times .. he is a HORRIBLE rock drummer .. i don't think the musicians were paid very well .. say what you want .. prince as someone who gives proper credit is not consistantly reliable .. you acting like he does everything himself is no more credible than the notion he can't write a hit by himself ..

TrevorAyer said:

hhhhdmt said:

They are solo records, and prince got paid because he wrote most of the songs himself. There is no evidence whatsoever that most of the stuff was co written. And they were paid musicians, they were not doing it for free. Since the bandmembers did not write most of the songs, they are not as famous (nor as talented) as Prince. You are the one who makes no sense and keeps repeating lies. And yes it does not matter what you believe. (remember you did believe that Prince needed a click track to record drum parts and you were 100 percent wrong on that one)

[Edited 11/25/11 21:05pm]

no all i remember is you like to make up complete bullshit and then say that it's what I said when it isn't .. prince plays along with his drum machine all the time .. a drum machine has a metronome .. he has a few funky sweet spots at times .. he is a HORRIBLE rock drummer .. i don't think the musicians were paid very well .. say what you want .. prince as someone who gives proper credit is not consistantly reliable .. you acting like he does everything himself is no more credible than the notion he can't write a hit by himself ..

Trevorayer say what you said that Prince is a horrible rock drummer.

this is so funny haha

i'll give u only one example of great rock drums by Prince-Glascutter

TrevorAyer said:

hhhhdmt said:

They are solo records, and prince got paid because he wrote most of the songs himself. There is no evidence whatsoever that most of the stuff was co written. And they were paid musicians, they were not doing it for free. Since the bandmembers did not write most of the songs, they are not as famous (nor as talented) as Prince. You are the one who makes no sense and keeps repeating lies. And yes it does not matter what you believe. (remember you did believe that Prince needed a click track to record drum parts and you were 100 percent wrong on that one)

[Edited 11/25/11 21:05pm]

no all i remember is you like to make up complete bullshit and then say that it's what I said when it isn't .. prince plays along with his drum machine all the time .. a drum machine has a metronome .. he has a few funky sweet spots at times .. he is a HORRIBLE rock drummer .. i don't think the musicians were paid very well .. say what you want .. prince as someone who gives proper credit is not consistantly reliable .. you acting like he does everything himself is no more credible than the notion he can't write a hit by himself ..

Prince recorded the first three songs to parade in one go, and without any clicktrack. So your argument that he plays with a drum machine "all the time" is completely false. And i am not making anything up, you did claim that Prince couldnt keep perfect time without a click track

No one does everything on their own. No one plays every instrument on every album and writes every song on every record by themselves. Michael Jackson (whom you claimed deserved to be rated ahead of Prince) used guitarists like Greg Howe, Carlos Santana and Eddie Van Halen, all three of whom are better than any guitarist Prince has ever worked with. I haven't even mentioned Rod Temperton, who is again a better writer than anyone Prince has ever collaborated with on his records. Stevie Wonder (who is just as talented as Prince and arguably more so) used musicians like Jeff Beck, George Benson, Herbie Hancock, and Dorothy Ashby to play on his record. Some amazing songs in his catalogue were co written by Syretta Wright or Yvonne Wright. And James Brown? The guy had amazing musicians around him like Jimmy Nolen, Maceo Parker and others. Jimi Hendrix had Noel Redding and Mitch Mitchell, both of whom were very talented. And so on. You like to pretend that P is the only one who had talented musicians in his band, and that he is the only one who use co writers, and that everything he ever did was a "collaboration"

Musicians surround themselves with other talented musicians. And if you look at any great solo artists catalogue, you will notice that some of the great songs on there were co written or written by other artists. That does not mean that they are incapable or writing anything great on their own or everything they ever did was a "collaboration". Prince did not do everything on his own, songs like Computer Blue, 17 days, Mountains and some others were co written. Kiss was not arranged by him either. So yes Prince beneftied from working with other musicians (as do all solo artists) and the band members who helped write those particular songs do deserve praise. However that does not mean that they should be credited for things they had nothing to do with. Prince wrote plenty of great songs on his own (WDC, ICNTTPOYM, IIWYGF etc). As far as the musicians are concerned, they stuck around for years and they sure as hell were not working for free.

thebanishedone said:

TrevorAyer said:

no all i remember is you like to make up complete bullshit and then say that it's what I said when it isn't .. prince plays along with his drum machine all the time .. a drum machine has a metronome .. he has a few funky sweet spots at times .. he is a HORRIBLE rock drummer .. i don't think the musicians were paid very well .. say what you want .. prince as someone who gives proper credit is not consistantly reliable .. you acting like he does everything himself is no more credible than the notion he can't write a hit by himself ..

Trevorayer say what you said that Prince is a horrible rock drummer.

this is so funny haha

i'll give u only one example of great rock drums by Prince-Glascutter

lotus flower has the clunkiest rock drumming ever ..

hhhhdmt said:

TrevorAyer said:

no all i remember is you like to make up complete bullshit and then say that it's what I said when it isn't .. prince plays along with his drum machine all the time .. a drum machine has a metronome .. he has a few funky sweet spots at times .. he is a HORRIBLE rock drummer .. i don't think the musicians were paid very well .. say what you want .. prince as someone who gives proper credit is not consistantly reliable .. you acting like he does everything himself is no more credible than the notion he can't write a hit by himself ..

Prince recorded the first three songs to parade in one go, and without any clicktrack. So your argument that he plays with a drum machine "all the time" is completely false. And i am not making anything up, you did claim that Prince couldnt keep perfect time without a click track

No one does everything on their own. No one plays every instrument on every album and writes every song on every record by themselves. Michael Jackson (whom you claimed deserved to be rated ahead of Prince) used guitarists like Greg Howe, Carlos Santana and Eddie Van Halen, all three of whom are better than any guitarist Prince has ever worked with. I haven't even mentioned Rod Temperton, who is again a better writer than anyone Prince has ever collaborated with on his records. Stevie Wonder (who is just as talented as Prince and arguably more so) used musicians like Jeff Beck, George Benson, Herbie Hancock, and Dorothy Ashby to play on his record. Some amazing songs in his catalogue were co written by Syretta Wright or Yvonne Wright. And James Brown? The guy had amazing musicians around him like Jimmy Nolen, Maceo Parker and others. Jimi Hendrix had Noel Redding and Mitch Mitchell, both of whom were very talented. And so on. You like to pretend that P is the only one who had talented musicians in his band, and that he is the only one who use co writers, and that everything he ever did was a "collaboration"

Musicians surround themselves with other talented musicians. And if you look at any great solo artists catalogue, you will notice that some of the great songs on there were co written or written by other artists. That does not mean that they are incapable or writing anything great on their own or everything they ever did was a "collaboration". Prince did not do everything on his own, songs like Computer Blue, 17 days, Mountains and some others were co written. Kiss was not arranged by him either. So yes Prince beneftied from working with other musicians (as do all solo artists) and the band members who helped write those particular songs do deserve praise. However that does not mean that they should be credited for things they had nothing to do with. Prince wrote plenty of great songs on his own (WDC, ICNTTPOYM, IIWYGF etc). As far as the musicians are concerned, they stuck around for years and they sure as hell were not working for free.

ok lets clear things up .. again .. cuz u lie too much .. prince does not keep perfect time without a click .. that does not mean he sucks .. he is a capable drummer who hits a great pocket at times .. other times like lotusflower .. he sounds clunky and amature on drums .. prince uses a click track quite a bit .. he plays drums along with a drum machine quite a lot as well .. its right on the records .. lady cab driver is a good example of this .. the drum machine is keeping time for him .. i don't believe everything prince ever did was a collaboration .. i just think he lifted ideas from his band often .. and i am right .. as many of his 'crediting" efforts have been questioned by his own band .. and his ace material clearly comes and goes with the level of talent he surrounds himself with ... i don't pretend prince is the only one who collaborates .. not sure where u got that little fantasy from .. u always act like prince band is just some crappy bar band cover band that had zero impact on prince greatest music .. i simply question how much is truly ALL prince when his good music dried up after he stopped working with his best collaborators .. i don't think his band was working for free .. but they certainly got paid a lot less by not appearing on the record .. even tho they likely contributed to the songwriting and feel of the songs before prince laid down the parts by himself ... and being paid chump change as a band for hire .. when they were his friends and helped create the music .. is kind of insulting considering the talent they brought to the table ..

TrevorAyer said:

thebanishedone said:

Trevorayer say what you said that Prince is a horrible rock drummer.

this is so funny haha

i'll give u only one example of great rock drums by Prince-Glascutter

lotus flower has the clunkiest rock drumming ever ..

All of it?

TrevorAyer said:

hhhhdmt said:

Prince recorded the first three songs to parade in one go, and without any clicktrack. So your argument that he plays with a drum machine "all the time" is completely false. And i am not making anything up, you did claim that Prince couldnt keep perfect time without a click track

No one does everything on their own. No one plays every instrument on every album and writes every song on every record by themselves. Michael Jackson (whom you claimed deserved to be rated ahead of Prince) used guitarists like Greg Howe, Carlos Santana and Eddie Van Halen, all three of whom are better than any guitarist Prince has ever worked with. I haven't even mentioned Rod Temperton, who is again a better writer than anyone Prince has ever collaborated with on his records. Stevie Wonder (who is just as talented as Prince and arguably more so) used musicians like Jeff Beck, George Benson, Herbie Hancock, and Dorothy Ashby to play on his record. Some amazing songs in his catalogue were co written by Syretta Wright or Yvonne Wright. And James Brown? The guy had amazing musicians around him like Jimmy Nolen, Maceo Parker and others. Jimi Hendrix had Noel Redding and Mitch Mitchell, both of whom were very talented. And so on. You like to pretend that P is the only one who had talented musicians in his band, and that he is the only one who use co writers, and that everything he ever did was a "collaboration"

Musicians surround themselves with other talented musicians. And if you look at any great solo artists catalogue, you will notice that some of the great songs on there were co written or written by other artists. That does not mean that they are incapable or writing anything great on their own or everything they ever did was a "collaboration". Prince did not do everything on his own, songs like Computer Blue, 17 days, Mountains and some others were co written. Kiss was not arranged by him either. So yes Prince beneftied from working with other musicians (as do all solo artists) and the band members who helped write those particular songs do deserve praise. However that does not mean that they should be credited for things they had nothing to do with. Prince wrote plenty of great songs on his own (WDC, ICNTTPOYM, IIWYGF etc). As far as the musicians are concerned, they stuck around for years and they sure as hell were not working for free.

ok lets clear things up .. again .. cuz u lie too much .. prince does not keep perfect time without a click .. that does not mean he sucks .. he is a capable drummer who hits a great pocket at times .. other times like lotusflower .. he sounds clunky and amature on drums .. prince uses a click track quite a bit .. he plays drums along with a drum machine quite a lot as well .. its right on the records .. lady cab driver is a good example of this .. the drum machine is keeping time for him .. i don't believe everything prince ever did was a collaboration .. i just think he lifted ideas from his band often .. and i am right .. as many of his 'crediting" efforts have been questioned by his own band .. and his ace material clearly comes and goes with the level of talent he surrounds himself with ... i don't pretend prince is the only one who collaborates .. not sure where u got that little fantasy from .. u always act like prince band is just some crappy bar band cover band that had zero impact on prince greatest music .. i simply question how much is truly ALL prince when his good music dried up after he stopped working with his best collaborators .. i don't think his band was working for free .. but they certainly got paid a lot less by not appearing on the record .. even tho they likely contributed to the songwriting and feel of the songs before prince laid down the parts by himself ... and being paid chump change as a band for hire .. when they were his friends and helped create the music .. is kind of insulting considering the talent they brought to the table ..

"many" of his crediting has been questioned? I have only ever heard of four songs. And you are still wrong about the click track, he doesnt need it.

And no, you are absolutely wrong, his ace material does not come from the talent he surrounds himself with. Prince was simply at his peak in his 20's (as are most artists) and many people here regard albums like Lovesexy, TGE, Love Symbol as among his best. "Even though they likely contributed to songwriting", umm this happened at times but on many occasions it was simply Prince who wrote the material- and his bandmembers had nothing to do with many of these songs. When Doves Cry is a classic example of this- its all Prince, not his band. bandmembers were credited for several songs, remember they did not co write the vast majority of the material. Its not insulting, they were paid musicians. And while they were good competent musicians, they were nowhere his all round talent. Every great solo artist has had some collaborations, however they are also able to come up with amazing songs on their own (as Prince has done on many occasions). Ofcourse Prince benefited from his bandmembers, who doesnt? Didn't MJ, Stevie, Hendrix, JB, Marvin Gaye and numerous others benefit from playing alongside gifted musicians and using co writers?

hhhhdmt said:

TrevorAyer said:

ok lets clear things up .. again .. cuz u lie too much .. prince does not keep perfect time without a click .. that does not mean he sucks .. he is a capable drummer who hits a great pocket at times .. other times like lotusflower .. he sounds clunky and amature on drums .. prince uses a click track quite a bit .. he plays drums along with a drum machine quite a lot as well .. its right on the records .. lady cab driver is a good example of this .. the drum machine is keeping time for him .. i don't believe everything prince ever did was a collaboration .. i just think he lifted ideas from his band often .. and i am right .. as many of his 'crediting" efforts have been questioned by his own band .. and his ace material clearly comes and goes with the level of talent he surrounds himself with ... i don't pretend prince is the only one who collaborates .. not sure where u got that little fantasy from .. u always act like prince band is just some crappy bar band cover band that had zero impact on prince greatest music .. i simply question how much is truly ALL prince when his good music dried up after he stopped working with his best collaborators .. i don't think his band was working for free .. but they certainly got paid a lot less by not appearing on the record .. even tho they likely contributed to the songwriting and feel of the songs before prince laid down the parts by himself ... and being paid chump change as a band for hire .. when they were his friends and helped create the music .. is kind of insulting considering the talent they brought to the table ..

"many" of his crediting has been questioned? I have only ever heard of four songs. And you are still wrong about the click track, he doesnt need it.

And no, you are absolutely wrong, his ace material does not come from the talent he surrounds himself with. Prince was simply at his peak in his 20's (as are most artists) and many people here regard albums like Lovesexy, TGE, Love Symbol as among his best. "Even though they likely contributed to songwriting", umm this happened at times but on many occasions it was simply Prince who wrote the material- and his bandmembers had nothing to do with many of these songs. When Doves Cry is a classic example of this- its all Prince, not his band. bandmembers were credited for several songs, remember they did not co write the vast majority of the material. Its not insulting, they were paid musicians. And while they were good competent musicians, they were nowhere his all round talent. Every great solo artist has had some collaborations, however they are also able to come up with amazing songs on their own (as Prince has done on many occasions). Ofcourse Prince benefited from his bandmembers, who doesnt? Didn't MJ, Stevie, Hendrix, JB, Marvin Gaye and numerous others benefit from playing alongside gifted musicians and using co writers?

wait .. so are you saying the members of the time weren't good enough to play on their own record .. even tho they were being paid to play it live? they probably would have made more money if they had been allowed to play on the record and earn more off of its sales .. its also safe to say that the entire group that was around at the time was influencing each other in numerous ways .. prince influencing them and them influencing prince .. likely sharing or perhaps taking musical ideas as well

TrevorAyer said:

hhhhdmt said:

"many" of his crediting has been questioned? I have only ever heard of four songs. And you are still wrong about the click track, he doesnt need it.

And no, you are absolutely wrong, his ace material does not come from the talent he surrounds himself with. Prince was simply at his peak in his 20's (as are most artists) and many people here regard albums like Lovesexy, TGE, Love Symbol as among his best. "Even though they likely contributed to songwriting", umm this happened at times but on many occasions it was simply Prince who wrote the material- and his bandmembers had nothing to do with many of these songs. When Doves Cry is a classic example of this- its all Prince, not his band. bandmembers were credited for several songs, remember they did not co write the vast majority of the material. Its not insulting, they were paid musicians. And while they were good competent musicians, they were nowhere his all round talent. Every great solo artist has had some collaborations, however they are also able to come up with amazing songs on their own (as Prince has done on many occasions). Ofcourse Prince benefited from his bandmembers, who doesnt? Didn't MJ, Stevie, Hendrix, JB, Marvin Gaye and numerous others benefit from playing alongside gifted musicians and using co writers?

wait .. so are you saying the members of the time weren't good enough to play on their own record .. even tho they were being paid to play it live? they probably would have made more money if they had been allowed to play on the record and earn more off of its sales .. its also safe to say that the entire group that was around at the time was influencing each other in numerous ways .. prince influencing them and them influencing prince .. likely sharing or perhaps taking musical ideas as well

I said they were good musicians- but nowhere near the all round talent of Prince. They did play on the records and they did make money of it, if you are a musician and you can play alot of the music on the records without help, then why not? Why should Prince let everyone else play on the record just so they can make more money when he can handle alot of it himself?

BOTTOM LINE:

Prince is Jack of all trades, master of... probably more than your average musician....

Maybe Morris DID play Drums for some tracks he never got credit for, a part of me actually believes this,

BUT I also believe that Prince is very clever and PLAYS TO HIS STRENGTHS....

So much so that here we all are 30 years later having debates such as this.

Billy Cobham Prince mightn't be... but he didn't name "Controversy Music" for no reason...

'dre

TrevorAyer said:

thebanishedone said:

Trevorayer say what you said that Prince is a horrible rock drummer.

this is so funny haha

i'll give u only one example of great rock drums by Prince-Glascutter

lotus flower has the clunkiest rock drumming ever ..

More like Lotus turd!! I've got a fever and the only cure is more cow bell!!

DreZone said:

BOTTOM LINE:

Prince is Jack of all trades, master of... probably more than your average musician....

Maybe Morris DID play Drums for some tracks he never got credit for, a part of me actually believes this,

BUT I also believe that Prince is very clever and PLAYS TO HIS STRENGTHS....

So much so that here we all are 30 years later having debates such as this.

Billy Cobham Prince mightn't be... but he didn't name "Controversy Music" for no reason...

'dre

Thank you for atleast considering my opinion.

TrevorAyer said:

thebanishedone said:

Trevorayer say what you said that Prince is a horrible rock drummer.

this is so funny haha

i'll give u only one example of great rock drums by Prince-Glascutter

lotus flower has the clunkiest rock drumming ever ..

I'm still interested in hearing how Lotusflow3r shows Prince to be a horrible rock drummer. Please explain.

paulludvig said:

thebanishedone said:

paulludvig said:

I'm still interested in hearing how Lotusflow3r shows Prince to be a horrible rock drummer. Please explain.

me too,because drums on lotus were played by michael bland and cora,not prince

hhhhdmt said:

TrevorAyer said:

wait .. so are you saying the members of the time weren't good enough to play on their own record .. even tho they were being paid to play it live? they probably would have made more money if they had been allowed to play on the record and earn more off of its sales .. its also safe to say that the entire group that was around at the time was influencing each other in numerous ways .. prince influencing them and them influencing prince .. likely sharing or perhaps taking musical ideas as well

I said they were good musicians- but nowhere near the all round talent of Prince. They did play on the records and they did make money of it, if you are a musician and you can play alot of the music on the records without help, then why not? Why should Prince let everyone else play on the record just so they can make more money when he can handle alot of it himself?

True, but in the end, it undermines your(his) Uptown vision

If he had more than Morris & Jesse on the 2nd album, a few Prince only tracks a few full band tracks a few mixed tracks then in the long run you might have had a Time band that continued with Prince into SOTT/Lovesexy,

also it would have given the band another level of credibility in the long run

It strikes me that since the new 'Time' album has been released, some people are trying to nitpick on Prince a lot and seem to make assumptions that are simply ungrounded.

However much of Princes recent output leaves me cold, i would like to take it up for the man when it comes to the following things:

Some people in here seem to think that the Time really were some 'threat' for Prince in the early eighties: The time simply were a Prince alter-ego: the party-flavour, mysoginistist, pimpish, 'shallow' side of his persona. He did wrote the songs, he played, produced and recorded them, and Morris and Jerome were probably dancing and moving based on his cues.

If you long back for that kind of 'posing', fine with me, but realise it was a pose coming from Prince in the first place.

The misguided idea that former Time-members have been (very) succesfull. Indeed, Jam and Lewis did catapult a thin-voiced, bland singer like Janet into the charts, but how long is that ago? And whose sound did they use for that? And does commercial succes actually equals artistic succes? I would say: ask Justin Bieber about it. Or look at the several lists about the best 100 albums of all time.

And don't get me started on Jesse Johnson. People seem to support him, based on nostalgia, but both on artistic and commerical grounds the guy is a nobody.

Don't you feel fooled and annoyed when the Time members at one hand say they are annoyed they can't use their original name again, and on the other hand you see they are using that worn out Mirror-act, Jerome as a clown on coke, and Morris still acting like a bland pimp while he is a grown up man in his forties / fifties?

While youre at it: where has the music produced by Morris been, that has been remotely commercially or artistically succesfull in the last 25 years or so?

My observation: many of you trying to set up 'The Time' (which is Prince) towards Prince himself, just dont like music or are simply too obsessed with image.

whendovescry2000 said:

Mindflux said:

Hmm - so, you're going to raise the point and ask the question, but when every single person disagrees with you, even quoting from Prince's own band members, you're just going to ignore everyone and say, "well, I still think I'm right".

You're making this a pointless discussion. It IS Prince playing on Bambi and you have NOTHING to prove it otherwise. People have given far more evidence here than you have and the opinions are also coming from people who are musicians themselves. You're not a musician, neither have you ever been anything connected to Prince, so perhaps you should stop flogging this dead horse?

Furthermore, you keep citing Kiss as an example, where Kiss's arrangement WAS correctly credited on Parade to David Z, so that's a moot point.

Prince played drums on his first two albums - period!

I wish to apologize for my Bobby Z. comment. I did not mean he wasn't good (although Prince himself stated that in an interview), he's excellent, but with Morris Day and Prince in attendance - it's like comparing John Stockton to Michael Jordan and Larry Bird.

First paragraph - I have not disagreed with every person here, but if my belief is this and yours is that, we discuss and we may discuss ad infinitum that's what this thread and site is for. In my heart I believe it's Prince playing but my logic says differently, that's the dichotomy.

Second paragraph - No discussion is pointless if it creates dialog and presents points, views and facts that one may not have been aware of. A great many people have cited facts I wasn't aware of and a few have presented "after evidence". That is "...Have you seen Prince in concert playing the drums?" The Prince promotional machine was in full effect at that time, offering a great deal of mendacious statements "He's only 17!!" This coming from his manager and Warner Brothers(people inside his camp). We all know now he was actually 19. So if they are willing to alter (lie) about his age to enhance the "next Stevie Wonder" what else would or wouldn't do to propel this talent. Although I play guitar (rhythm), piano and violin (drums pre-teen), I am not a musician. That is, I don't play in a band nor have I done session work aside from a guitar riff on a local artist studio cd. I am not connected to Prince in any way and neither are you but that DOES NOT mean I cannot interpret music. Roger Ebert isnt a director but is one of the most eminent movie critics of the 20th century. From just giving his interpretation of a film that he didn't direct, wirte or act in (or should that be Produce, Arranged and Composed by).

Dead horse or not ( I think I just shot yours ).

I cite Kiss as an example of how ownership, (who did what) can be blurred. Yes David Z. was credited but that's not how it was presented to the public. The Family members were credited on the songs but it was Prince (et al). Vanity 6 was credited on the songs but it was Prince (et al). The Time was credited on the cd's but it was Prince (et al). We all praise Morris Day's drumming but has anyone seen him actually play? My belief is that Prince did play drums on his first two albums but some tracks were done by someone else, which isn't inconceivable, especially when you want to appear and the promotional machine is running to create the one man next Stevie Wonder.

[Edited 11/23/11 8:35am]

[Edited 11/23/11 8:37am]

Heh - you didn't shoot my horse, I'm not the one flogging it and its not mine, so you must have shot your own!

You disagreed with everyone on the first few pages (which was a fair few contributors), until TrevorAyer chimed in with his similar, non-factual based whimsy that resonated with your own view. When you dismiss everyone else who has provided actual evidence and, in terms of the musicians, a more educated opinion and only agree with the one person who shares your view, then that is a fairly pointless discussion. I don't know how you can say "logic" is making you think its not Prince! What logic? Logic would dictate that with all the evidence available (you know, minor stuff like long-serving musicians who knew him intimately, engineers who were ACTUALLY THERE in the studio for those early recordings, what evey other engineer like Susan Rogers etc has also attested to over time!), it is Prince playing drums. Its actually your heart, not your head, that wants you to believe, for some unfathomable reason (perhaps you just have to prove wrong all the die-hards you keep mentioning whom you perceive as "Prince doing no wrong/doing everything himself" (even though you'd struggle to find anyone with any sense around here that subscribes entirely to that point of view)), that its not Prince. But, you have no evidence (or logic) to support that argument whatsoever.

Neither did you do yourself any favours by displaying a lack of knowledge about what musical ability and aptitude. Here's 3 consecutive sentences from just your first reply - all of them completely wrong. "Again, Bambi's drum style is incredible (for a 20 year old kid). And you really don't hear that syle again for several albums. Bobby Z. isn't that good." What you're implying is that it was unlikely Prince was good enough to play that drum track (something you repeat and eventually back-track on, only to then accuse everyone else of bringing this up - i.e. stop telling me how good Prince is, its about whether he played on Bambi!). You then also imply that it must have been someone else, because we don't hear that style for "several albums". Well, think of Bambi as an updated, progressed I'm Yours - the drumming on both those songs is stylistically similar (as, in fact, are the songs) and, guess what? It was Prince playing drums on I'm Yours. So, we'd already heard Prince playing in this style on the album prior - its no great leap to assume the link and also by trusting in your ears.

And, without endlessly quoting you (so I'll paraphrase), you then went on to things like "drumming like that is incredible when its not your main instrument" and "so when did he have time to practice bass and piano" and all manner of other suppositions. Despite the lies told in some of the marketing (that's the thing with marketing, it ALWAYS embellishes the truth, no matter how good the truth was in the first place!), Prince was and is a MUSICAL PRODIGY. Its a fact. End of. He plays a wide variety of instruments and can play them better than most people. He can certainly play them better than he ought to be able to, given the sheer variety. Nobody has ever disputed that. Jimmy Jam also said in his recent interview that, at school, Prince would just pick up any instrument "and play it 10x better than anyone else". Prince is a musical genius and is widely regarded as such. His peers all agree on how fabulous a musician he is, even from an early age. And yet, here you are, trying to put a chink in that armour as though you've made some great discovery, but haven't actually got anything of substance to support it.

Furthermore, I never said you can't interpret music. I did say that those with more musical knowledge/experience than you had a more valid argument, relative to you and given the lack of comprehension for musical aptitude you've expressed, doubley so! Anyone can interpret music - the thing with interpretation is that its not always right. Roger Ebert is a well-known successful critic - sure. And, wow, he critiques movies having never been a director? I'm amazed - I thought all critics had experience in their field I hate to break this to you, but MOST critics have no direct experience in their subject. They are good writers, in the main, not necessarily "authorities" on their subject and most likely have an interest (though, its not a given - for some, its just a job) in the subject they are talking about. Your example of Roger is exactly this. He majored in journalism. He had an interest in films (even though that's not what he wrote about at the start of his career). His writing style was popular and he wrote with the audience in mind, he's not a "serious art critic". However, get this, he DID actually have direct experience in the movie industry, having worked with the director Russ Meyer and writing screenplays for other projects! So, perhaps Roger isn't the ideal example. Regardless, I didn't say what you've inferred, which is the main point.

There's no real blurring on the Kiss issue. He wrote the track, gave it away, then worked on the newly arranged version David Z had been working on. Rightly, on the Parade album, Kiss is credited with "Arranged by David Z". What more needed to be explained to the public? Should the liners notes have said "This song originally began as an acoustic demo, by Prince. Prince then gave the song to one of his protogés......." - the public simply aren't interested. Only die-hard fans are interested in that level of detail, its of no interest to the casual fan or the general record-buying public. The enthusiasts DO know the story and they're the only ones that care. David Z got paid and got his credit - further than that, its of little interest to most people.

You then go on to list a load of things Prince did that he DIDN'T take credit for. Ha! I hope the irony of that isn't lost on you Nobody had to make up stuff for the "promo machine" about which instruments Prince played. What you suggest is inconceivable - not through any misguided fandom, but from perfectly rational analysis of all the evidence which suggests it was Prince on drums for Bambi.

[Edited 11/29/11 12:31pm]

When your musical niche is limitated to the early eighties you get these kind of discussions, right?

whendovescry2000 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I'll have to disagree,

How you phrase something changes the meaning. Prince again did not say "Bobby Z is not that spectacular" as in saying he's not good. And he used Morris Day to shed light on it. He's saying Bobby Z is not someone who goes into the flashy drumming other like Morris may do. At a 1982 1st Avenue show were it was Prince & band vs Morris Day and the Time, Prince had Morris get on the drums on Party Up, (of course now Morris has to show off because Prince was punking him thru the show)

Bobby Z played on a hard rock version of Bambi

unrel version of All the Critics Love U in NY

When U Were Mine

Sexy Dancer

Still Waiting

Head

Sexuality

a more impromptu show and if uv heard this show, you can't say the man wasn't good

It doesn't mean anything,

Yet Bobby Z and many of the other musicians did parts on songs and Prince add his touch to their parts at times.

Dez could kill Prince on guitar, Dez still didn't really get to play on the album till Controversy & 1999 and Dez was there from the beginning

It's amazing how you got all of that from Prince saying "not the most spectacular drummer,...".

Again this thread is about who played drums on Bambi. Not if Prince could play or if Prince can even play drums. Nor is it about how good Bobby Z. is or is not. Prince's observation is open for several interpretations. But again, if your employer said you weren't that spetacular a worker, how would you feel?

Steakfinger's post addressed and answered all of my doubt.

It's amazing how you get what you get from that, from the time U mentioned it you've added your own twist to what Prince said.

But U did open the door saying 'Prince said Bobby Z wasn't a good drummer...'

Now you change again and say Prince is saying Bobby Z was not a spectacular worker

You most likely have never seen or heard any of the live shows.

Again if Prince didn't think Bobby was that good he probably would not have had him as a drummer from 94East-Parade/Dream Factory

So I'll say like Judge Judy, If don't make sense it's probably not true

thebanishedone said:

Replica i agree with you,it's bulshit that prince's early stuff wouldn't be hits if not for one man band.only musicians care about that stuff. I wanna be your lover is a great great pop.i feel for u is also a nice song,it was a number one hit for chaka khan. Also not true that dez was better guitar player then prince.maybe dez was almost as good as prince but never that good. Dez rhythm was great but solos were sloppy and out of tune

Sorry, Dez was a rock guitarist long before Prince

Prince was known back then as being a better piano player

It was Dez that got Prince to push his skills, it was Dez that amped the shows up

with a more rock vibe, I mean i can play you a good number of Prince solos that were choppy or sloppy too

That last line is far from truth

OldFriends4Sale said:

thebanishedone said:

Replica i agree with you,it's bulshit that prince's early stuff wouldn't be hits if not for one man band.only musicians care about that stuff. I wanna be your lover is a great great pop.i feel for u is also a nice song,it was a number one hit for chaka khan. Also not true that dez was better guitar player then prince.maybe dez was almost as good as prince but never that good. Dez rhythm was great but solos were sloppy and out of tune

Sorry, Dez was a rock guitarist long before Prince

Prince was known back then as being a better piano player

It was Dez that got Prince to push his skills, it was Dez that amped the shows up

with a more rock vibe, I mean i can play you a good number of Prince solos that were choppy or sloppy too

That last line is far from truth

Sorry but you're wrong.

As a kid in Minneapolis Prince was know as a guitar wunderkind

who could replicate note by note guitar solos that were really chalenging like Chicago's Sunday in the Park or Make me Smile(one of those two have extended solo.

Dez didn't push Prince,Dez didn't influence Prince's guitar playing and while i love Dez playing rhythm guitar his solos were never as good as Prince's.

thebanishedone said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Sorry, Dez was a rock guitarist long before Prince

Prince was known back then as being a better piano player

It was Dez that got Prince to push his skills, it was Dez that amped the shows up

with a more rock vibe, I mean i can play you a good number of Prince solos that were choppy or sloppy too

That last line is far from truth

Sorry but you're wrong.

As a kid in Minneapolis Prince was know as a guitar wunderkind

who could replicate note by note guitar solos that were really chalenging like Chicago's Sunday in the Park or Make me Smile(one of those two have extended solo.

Dez didn't push Prince,Dez didn't influence Prince's guitar playing and while i love Dez playing rhythm guitar his solos were never as good as Prince's.

We'll have to agree 2 disagree

Dez definately pushed the rock edge in the live shows

Dez did influence Prince (that doesn't have to be a blow 2 Prince) and Prince definately influenced Dez

Dez also had an influence on Prince's visual style

Dez had a lot of say with Prince as far as those elements were concerned

Mindflux said:

whendovescry2000 said:

I wish to apologize for my Bobby Z. comment. I did not mean he wasn't good (although Prince himself stated that in an interview), he's excellent, but with Morris Day and Prince in attendance - it's like comparing John Stockton to Michael Jordan and Larry Bird.

First paragraph - I have not disagreed with every person here, but if my belief is this and yours is that, we discuss and we may discuss ad infinitum that's what this thread and site is for. In my heart I believe it's Prince playing but my logic says differently, that's the dichotomy.

Second paragraph - No discussion is pointless if it creates dialog and presents points, views and facts that one may not have been aware of. A great many people have cited facts I wasn't aware of and a few have presented "after evidence". That is "...Have you seen Prince in concert playing the drums?" The Prince promotional machine was in full effect at that time, offering a great deal of mendacious statements "He's only 17!!" This coming from his manager and Warner Brothers(people inside his camp). We all know now he was actually 19. So if they are willing to alter (lie) about his age to enhance the "next Stevie Wonder" what else would or wouldn't do to propel this talent. Although I play guitar (rhythm), piano and violin (drums pre-teen), I am not a musician. That is, I don't play in a band nor have I done session work aside from a guitar riff on a local artist studio cd. I am not connected to Prince in any way and neither are you but that DOES NOT mean I cannot interpret music. Roger Ebert isnt a director but is one of the most eminent movie critics of the 20th century. From just giving his interpretation of a film that he didn't direct, wirte or act in (or should that be Produce, Arranged and Composed by).

Dead horse or not ( I think I just shot yours ).

I cite Kiss as an example of how ownership, (who did what) can be blurred. Yes David Z. was credited but that's not how it was presented to the public. The Family members were credited on the songs but it was Prince (et al). Vanity 6 was credited on the songs but it was Prince (et al). The Time was credited on the cd's but it was Prince (et al). We all praise Morris Day's drumming but has anyone seen him actually play? My belief is that Prince did play drums on his first two albums but some tracks were done by someone else, which isn't inconceivable, especially when you want to appear and the promotional machine is running to create the one man next Stevie Wonder.

[Edited 11/23/11 8:35am]

[Edited 11/23/11 8:37am]

Heh - you didn't shoot my horse, I'm not the one flogging it and its not mine, so you must have shot your own!

You disagreed with everyone on the first few pages (which was a fair few contributors), until TrevorAyer chimed in with his similar, non-factual based whimsy that resonated with your own view. When you dismiss everyone else who has provided actual evidence and, in terms of the musicians, a more educated opinion and only agree with the one person who shares your view, then that is a fairly pointless discussion. I don't know how you can say "logic" is making you think its not Prince! What logic? Logic would dictate that with all the evidence available (you know, minor stuff like long-serving musicians who knew him intimately, engineers who were ACTUALLY THERE in the studio for those early recordings, what evey other engineer like Susan Rogers etc has also attested to over time!), it is Prince playing drums. Its actually your heart, not your head, that wants you to believe, for some unfathomable reason (perhaps you just have to prove wrong all the die-hards you keep mentioning whom you perceive as "Prince doing no wrong/doing everything himself" (even though you'd struggle to find anyone with any sense around here that subscribes entirely to that point of view)), that its not Prince. But, you have no evidence (or logic) to support that argument whatsoever.

Neither did you do yourself any favours by displaying a lack of knowledge about what musical ability and aptitude. Here's 3 consecutive sentences from just your first reply - all of them completely wrong. "Again, Bambi's drum style is incredible (for a 20 year old kid). And you really don't hear that syle again for several albums. Bobby Z. isn't that good." What you're implying is that it was unlikely Prince was good enough to play that drum track (something you repeat and eventually back-track on, only to then accuse everyone else of bringing this up - i.e. stop telling me how good Prince is, its about whether he played on Bambi!). You then also imply that it must have been someone else, because we don't hear that style for "several albums". Well, think of Bambi as an updated, progressed I'm Yours - the drumming on both those songs is stylistically similar (as, in fact, are the songs) and, guess what? It was Prince playing drums on I'm Yours. So, we'd already heard Prince playing in this style on the album prior - its no great leap to assume the link and also by trusting in your ears.

And, without endlessly quoting you (so I'll paraphrase), you then went on to things like "drumming like that is incredible when its not your main instrument" and "so when did he have time to practice bass and piano" and all manner of other suppositions. Despite the lies told in some of the marketing (that's the thing with marketing, it ALWAYS embellishes the truth, no matter how good the truth was in the first place!), Prince was and is a MUSICAL PRODIGY. Its a fact. End of. He plays a wide variety of instruments and can play them better than most people. He can certainly play them better than he ought to be able to, given the sheer variety. Nobody has ever disputed that. Jimmy Jam also said in his recent interview that, at school, Prince would just pick up any instrument "and play it 10x better than anyone else". Prince is a musical genius and is widely regarded as such. His peers all agree on how fabulous a musician he is, even from an early age. And yet, here you are, trying to put a chink in that armour as though you've made some great discovery, but haven't actually got anything of substance to support it.

Furthermore, I never said you can't interpret music. I did say that those with more musical knowledge/experience than you had a more valid argument, relative to you and given the lack of comprehension for musical aptitude you've expressed, doubley so! Anyone can interpret music - the thing with interpretation is that its not always right. Roger Ebert is a well-known successful critic - sure. And, wow, he critiques movies having never been a director? I'm amazed - I thought all critics had experience in their field I hate to break this to you, but MOST critics have no direct experience in their subject. They are good writers, in the main, not necessarily "authorities" on their subject and most likely have an interest (though, its not a given - for some, its just a job) in the subject they are talking about. Your example of Roger is exactly this. He majored in journalism. He had an interest in films (even though that's not what he wrote about at the start of his career). His writing style was popular and he wrote with the audience in mind, he's not a "serious art critic". However, get this, he DID actually have direct experience in the movie industry, having worked with the director Russ Meyer and writing screenplays for other projects! So, perhaps Roger isn't the ideal example. Regardless, I didn't say what you've inferred, which is the main point.

There's no real blurring on the Kiss issue. He wrote the track, gave it away, then worked on the newly arranged version David Z had been working on. Rightly, on the Parade album, Kiss is credited with "Arranged by David Z". What more needed to be explained to the public? Should the liners notes have said "This song originally began as an acoustic demo, by Prince. Prince then gave the song to one of his protogés......." - the public simply aren't interested. Only die-hard fans are interested in that level of detail, its of no interest to the casual fan or the general record-buying public. The enthusiasts DO know the story and they're the only ones that care. David Z got paid and got his credit - further than that, its of little interest to most people.

You then go on to list a load of things Prince did that he DIDN'T take credit for. Ha! I hope the irony of that isn't lost on you Nobody had to make up stuff for the "promo machine" about which instruments Prince played. What you suggest is inconceivable - not through any misguided fandom, but from perfectly rational analysis of all the evidence which suggests it was Prince on drums for Bambi.

[Edited 11/29/11 12:31pm]

It's sad that you would devote this much time and verbiage to a moot argument. If I believe something and strongly adhere to said belief, then would I not strongly contest the counter opinion. I won't go on to ad infinitum, as I have already acquienced that it is Prince playing the drums, but Susan Rogers wasn't his engineer at the time so again you try to validate what I didn't disagree with - which is Prince can play drums. It was a thought - a possible thought. I didn't vehemently state it as fact. And even being a musical genius, prodigy or what ever someone would still need to show him how to tune drums or what ever instrument to achievea certain sound. But it dones't matter I concur with TrevorAyer. If he had not really gave me something to think about I would have continued to contest the Prince Morris Day drumming question - onlly to annoy you and your pompous I know GOD attitude. And how dare you attack my only be purple gotton son.