TrevorAyer said:

hhhhdmt said:

Prince recorded the first three songs to parade in one go, and without any clicktrack. So your argument that he plays with a drum machine "all the time" is completely false. And i am not making anything up, you did claim that Prince couldnt keep perfect time without a click track

No one does everything on their own. No one plays every instrument on every album and writes every song on every record by themselves. Michael Jackson (whom you claimed deserved to be rated ahead of Prince) used guitarists like Greg Howe, Carlos Santana and Eddie Van Halen, all three of whom are better than any guitarist Prince has ever worked with. I haven't even mentioned Rod Temperton, who is again a better writer than anyone Prince has ever collaborated with on his records. Stevie Wonder (who is just as talented as Prince and arguably more so) used musicians like Jeff Beck, George Benson, Herbie Hancock, and Dorothy Ashby to play on his record. Some amazing songs in his catalogue were co written by Syretta Wright or Yvonne Wright. And James Brown? The guy had amazing musicians around him like Jimmy Nolen, Maceo Parker and others. Jimi Hendrix had Noel Redding and Mitch Mitchell, both of whom were very talented. And so on. You like to pretend that P is the only one who had talented musicians in his band, and that he is the only one who use co writers, and that everything he ever did was a "collaboration"

Musicians surround themselves with other talented musicians. And if you look at any great solo artists catalogue, you will notice that some of the great songs on there were co written or written by other artists. That does not mean that they are incapable or writing anything great on their own or everything they ever did was a "collaboration". Prince did not do everything on his own, songs like Computer Blue, 17 days, Mountains and some others were co written. Kiss was not arranged by him either. So yes Prince beneftied from working with other musicians (as do all solo artists) and the band members who helped write those particular songs do deserve praise. However that does not mean that they should be credited for things they had nothing to do with. Prince wrote plenty of great songs on his own (WDC, ICNTTPOYM, IIWYGF etc). As far as the musicians are concerned, they stuck around for years and they sure as hell were not working for free.

ok lets clear things up .. again .. cuz u lie too much .. prince does not keep perfect time without a click .. that does not mean he sucks .. he is a capable drummer who hits a great pocket at times .. other times like lotusflower .. he sounds clunky and amature on drums .. prince uses a click track quite a bit .. he plays drums along with a drum machine quite a lot as well .. its right on the records .. lady cab driver is a good example of this .. the drum machine is keeping time for him .. i don't believe everything prince ever did was a collaboration .. i just think he lifted ideas from his band often .. and i am right .. as many of his 'crediting" efforts have been questioned by his own band .. and his ace material clearly comes and goes with the level of talent he surrounds himself with ... i don't pretend prince is the only one who collaborates .. not sure where u got that little fantasy from .. u always act like prince band is just some crappy bar band cover band that had zero impact on prince greatest music .. i simply question how much is truly ALL prince when his good music dried up after he stopped working with his best collaborators .. i don't think his band was working for free .. but they certainly got paid a lot less by not appearing on the record .. even tho they likely contributed to the songwriting and feel of the songs before prince laid down the parts by himself ... and being paid chump change as a band for hire .. when they were his friends and helped create the music .. is kind of insulting considering the talent they brought to the table ..

I don't really think he needed the drum machine to keep time, but he needed it to do what he wanted it to do. The sound and timing of the linn drum is different from both good and bad drummers. Prince was great at making the linn sound good. It was giving him a sound. Blending real drums with linn was often making it even better sounding. Prince was a master of contrasts. Hot versus cold, hard versus soft, stiff versus loose. Programming and live music combined gave him more creative control. I've heard by both himself and others that his biggest talent is to make one man sound like a band. To play each instrument the way it is meant to be played for each song. He has to be very unique planning this in his head since he was basically performing, recording and releasing music all the time at some point of his career. And to be able to make this work in the analog age, they wouldn't have the same amount of time cutting, pasting, looping, fixing bad rythms etc after the recordings. Each instrument had to be recorded fast, in few takes, and correct for the whole arrangement of the song.

Back to the main topic. Prince had been working in studio for a few years already before the Prince album. I'm pretty sure even though Morris Day probably was a helluva good drummer by then, he wouldn't be able to play as good as Prince in a studio setting where you're supposed to think in layers and in a very different context than live. Keeping time with a set of headphones and no physical stimulation from the vibration each other instrument creates, is difficult for many. I know many great live artists that I really don't think much of as studio artists. It's an environment you need to get to know. These drums wouldn't be difficult for Prince to nail imo even without a click track in the background. He was basically a disco artists anyways, and timing is probably one of the most important skills you need in that sort of music. Bambi sounds like a great disco artists having an ear for rock music also. But you can clearly hear the disco sound of the drums, even though he tries to make it sound like rock. the Prince album was good, but IMO he didn't really know how to combine genres that well until Dirty Mind. Dirty Mind is rock, pop, new wave, rnb, funk at once without loosing the edge of any of the genres he is mixing, and at the same time making it sound natural, like it was it's own type of genre.

Prince plays the bass like andre cymone, but strips it down a bit more, making it a bit more subtle in the mix. Gaining the attention it needs at certain places of the song. His drums are usually quite simple with mostly weight on the 2 and 4. Though I find some of the placing of his fills actually more interresting than many drummers that are considered better than him. He was probaly very influenced by Morris Day and any drummer James Brown had when it comes to his funk tracks, but he stripped it down to a new wavey pop sound, usually giving the guitar and synth alot more room/space to fill in. However his use of "heavy" and big bass drums made it a smart move to get rid of bass information in the bass guitar. Either by "removing" alot of bass information with EQ, or sometimes removing the whole bass track. Prince was playing "bass" with the guitar anyways.

sorry for going very out of topic with this, but the man is seriously interresting. Studying Prince is a good way of studying yourself as a musician, especially because of how he is using other band members. He is getting inspiration and alot of help, but in the end its still Prince. He decides how he wants it to be. If he likes something, then it suits his personality. Even Eric Leeds who was one of few band members he had that was capable of being very honest on what he thought about Prince music, he said that when they made the Madhouse Albums, he was in control of the brass arrangement, but it was still very much a Prince project. Prince taste and personality is also in Erics playing, since Eric would only write and arrange in a way that suited the Prince sound. Prince would also tell Sheila E where her focus needed to be with her drumming. Prince did not do everything alone, but his band members wasn't even able to make anything half as good as Princes mediocre tracks on their own. So Prince was the star and brain behind the success for the most part. His band members a was some of the palette he was working with. He used them for what they were good at, and made something great out of it.

I don't know anybody around prince so I'll have to take other's word for it. But for my ears I'm perfectly convinced that P. played all the drums on his first several albums. While I appreciate whendovescry2000 for asking a provocative question to foster discussion, I personally do not hear nor have heard convincing rumor of anyone but Prince drumming on his first two albums.

If you listen to his demos from in and around this era, especially a track like "make it through the storm", you hear that P. was already an accomplished drummer. P. was 20 yrs old sounding like a good session drummer. No reason to think he couldn't nail "Bambi".

IMHO Everything you need to know about prince as a drummer can be summated by watching the "America" video, listening to the first four tracks of Parade and then listening to "Another Lonely Christmas" (or "The Cross"). These examples, IMHO, show the breadth of P. as a drummer: in America we see that he really does have decent drum chops and can execute fills (and double kick drum) with real independent dexterity LIVE and with no warm up (for me this is similar to watching the youtube vid of Stevie Wonder playing drums live - - its shockingly awesome how great these cats are/were). Parade, famously and has been noted on this thread, he recorded the drum tracks of the first four songs of the album in one continous take (still my favorite P. recording story, truly legendary). And then on Christmas you hear him play some amazing drums but his timing and execution are slightly off at times, as if he hadn't practiced for awhile, or perhaps his chops weren't always up to the ideas he was hearing. The Cross is just gloriously sloppy basement band drumming, dispels any notion that his timing is 'perfect'. Luckily, I don't need it to be for me to still consider him a true musical wonder.

With the Madhouse album's distinctive, "woody" snare sound and strong chops to the Parade album, to 'Darling Nikki' to "sexual suicide" there's just too much evidence that P. can play great drums when he wants to for me to, without compelling evidence, conclude that P. had MD stand in for him on the first two wreckas

whendovescry2000 said:

Mindflux said:

Heh - you didn't shoot my horse, I'm not the one flogging it and its not mine, so you must have shot your own!

You disagreed with everyone on the first few pages (which was a fair few contributors), until TrevorAyer chimed in with his similar, non-factual based whimsy that resonated with your own view. When you dismiss everyone else who has provided actual evidence and, in terms of the musicians, a more educated opinion and only agree with the one person who shares your view, then that is a fairly pointless discussion. I don't know how you can say "logic" is making you think its not Prince! What logic? Logic would dictate that with all the evidence available (you know, minor stuff like long-serving musicians who knew him intimately, engineers who were ACTUALLY THERE in the studio for those early recordings, what evey other engineer like Susan Rogers etc has also attested to over time!), it is Prince playing drums. Its actually your heart, not your head, that wants you to believe, for some unfathomable reason (perhaps you just have to prove wrong all the die-hards you keep mentioning whom you perceive as "Prince doing no wrong/doing everything himself" (even though you'd struggle to find anyone with any sense around here that subscribes entirely to that point of view)), that its not Prince. But, you have no evidence (or logic) to support that argument whatsoever.

Neither did you do yourself any favours by displaying a lack of knowledge about what musical ability and aptitude. Here's 3 consecutive sentences from just your first reply - all of them completely wrong. "Again, Bambi's drum style is incredible (for a 20 year old kid). And you really don't hear that syle again for several albums. Bobby Z. isn't that good." What you're implying is that it was unlikely Prince was good enough to play that drum track (something you repeat and eventually back-track on, only to then accuse everyone else of bringing this up - i.e. stop telling me how good Prince is, its about whether he played on Bambi!). You then also imply that it must have been someone else, because we don't hear that style for "several albums". Well, think of Bambi as an updated, progressed I'm Yours - the drumming on both those songs is stylistically similar (as, in fact, are the songs) and, guess what? It was Prince playing drums on I'm Yours. So, we'd already heard Prince playing in this style on the album prior - its no great leap to assume the link and also by trusting in your ears.

And, without endlessly quoting you (so I'll paraphrase), you then went on to things like "drumming like that is incredible when its not your main instrument" and "so when did he have time to practice bass and piano" and all manner of other suppositions. Despite the lies told in some of the marketing (that's the thing with marketing, it ALWAYS embellishes the truth, no matter how good the truth was in the first place!), Prince was and is a MUSICAL PRODIGY. Its a fact. End of. He plays a wide variety of instruments and can play them better than most people. He can certainly play them better than he ought to be able to, given the sheer variety. Nobody has ever disputed that. Jimmy Jam also said in his recent interview that, at school, Prince would just pick up any instrument "and play it 10x better than anyone else". Prince is a musical genius and is widely regarded as such. His peers all agree on how fabulous a musician he is, even from an early age. And yet, here you are, trying to put a chink in that armour as though you've made some great discovery, but haven't actually got anything of substance to support it.

Furthermore, I never said you can't interpret music. I did say that those with more musical knowledge/experience than you had a more valid argument, relative to you and given the lack of comprehension for musical aptitude you've expressed, doubley so! Anyone can interpret music - the thing with interpretation is that its not always right. Roger Ebert is a well-known successful critic - sure. And, wow, he critiques movies having never been a director? I'm amazed - I thought all critics had experience in their field I hate to break this to you, but MOST critics have no direct experience in their subject. They are good writers, in the main, not necessarily "authorities" on their subject and most likely have an interest (though, its not a given - for some, its just a job) in the subject they are talking about. Your example of Roger is exactly this. He majored in journalism. He had an interest in films (even though that's not what he wrote about at the start of his career). His writing style was popular and he wrote with the audience in mind, he's not a "serious art critic". However, get this, he DID actually have direct experience in the movie industry, having worked with the director Russ Meyer and writing screenplays for other projects! So, perhaps Roger isn't the ideal example. Regardless, I didn't say what you've inferred, which is the main point.

There's no real blurring on the Kiss issue. He wrote the track, gave it away, then worked on the newly arranged version David Z had been working on. Rightly, on the Parade album, Kiss is credited with "Arranged by David Z". What more needed to be explained to the public? Should the liners notes have said "This song originally began as an acoustic demo, by Prince. Prince then gave the song to one of his protogés......." - the public simply aren't interested. Only die-hard fans are interested in that level of detail, its of no interest to the casual fan or the general record-buying public. The enthusiasts DO know the story and they're the only ones that care. David Z got paid and got his credit - further than that, its of little interest to most people.

You then go on to list a load of things Prince did that he DIDN'T take credit for. Ha! I hope the irony of that isn't lost on you Nobody had to make up stuff for the "promo machine" about which instruments Prince played. What you suggest is inconceivable - not through any misguided fandom, but from perfectly rational analysis of all the evidence which suggests it was Prince on drums for Bambi.

[Edited 11/29/11 12:31pm]

It's sad that you would devote this much time and verbiage to a moot argument. If I believe something and strongly adhere to said belief, then would I not strongly contest the counter opinion. I won't go on to ad infinitum, as I have already acquienced that it is Prince playing the drums, but Susan Rogers wasn't his engineer at the time so again you try to validate what I didn't disagree with - which is Prince can play drums. It was a thought - a possible thought. I didn't vehemently state it as fact. And even being a musical genius, prodigy or what ever someone would still need to show him how to tune drums or what ever instrument to achievea certain sound. But it dones't matter I concur with TrevorAyer. If he had not really gave me something to think about I would have continued to contest the Prince Morris Day drumming question - onlly to annoy you and your pompous I know GOD attitude. And how dare you attack my only be purple gotton son.

What's sad is that rather than come back with any sort of cogent argument (which you've consistently done), your only recourse is derision and avoidance (which you've occasionally done). If you can't debate and can only resort to insults and insolence, its best you don't say anything at all. At least you now admit, by alluding to a "moot argument", that your discussion was, indeed, pointless, as I noted some time ago. You also lack basic comprehension, as i didn't say that Susan Rogers was the engineer at the time - I mentioned her as one of many engineers, as well as the engineers who were there at the time, who have backed up what Prince does in the studio.It really helps if you try and understand what somebody wrote before you try to throw it back at them!

You stated many times that you thought it was MD on drums, virtually everyone has pointed out why this is not so and now you're attempting a sullen backtrack.

As for the "pompous I know GOD attitude" - first that doesn't make any sense, second I don't believe in God and third, if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Your insult says more about you than it does about me. If you're idiotic enough to assume that any of this is annoying, I suggest you go back to the playground and go and annoy some kids if you can't maintain an adult conversation. And, finally, your line "and how dare you attack my only be purple gotton son" is not only entirely grammatically incorrect and nonsensical, it leads one to believe that you have some kind of psychotic tendency.

Nice, er, knowing you

jilljones said:

I don't know anybody around prince so I'll have to take other's word for it. But for my ears I'm perfectly convinced that P. played all the drums on his first several albums. While I appreciate whendovescry2000 for asking a provocative question to foster discussion, I personally do not hear nor have heard convincing rumor of anyone but Prince drumming on his first two albums.

If you listen to his demos from in and around this era, especially a track like "make it through the storm", you hear that P. was already an accomplished drummer. P. was 20 yrs old sounding like a good session drummer. No reason to think he couldn't nail "Bambi".

IMHO Everything you need to know about prince as a drummer can be summated by watching the "America" video, listening to the first four tracks of Parade and then listening to "Another Lonely Christmas" (or "The Cross"). These examples, IMHO, show the breadth of P. as a drummer: in America we see that he really does have decent drum chops and can execute fills (and double kick drum) with real independent dexterity LIVE and with no warm up (for me this is similar to watching the youtube vid of Stevie Wonder playing drums live - - its shockingly awesome how great these cats are/were). Parade, famously and has been noted on this thread, he recorded the drum tracks of the first four songs of the album in one continous take (still my favorite P. recording story, truly legendary). And then on Christmas you hear him play some amazing drums but his timing and execution are slightly off at times, as if he hadn't practiced for awhile, or perhaps his chops weren't always up to the ideas he was hearing. The Cross is just gloriously sloppy basement band drumming, dispels any notion that his timing is 'perfect'. Luckily, I don't need it to be for me to still consider him a true musical wonder.

With the Madhouse album's distinctive, "woody" snare sound and strong chops to the Parade album, to 'Darling Nikki' to "sexual suicide" there's just too much evidence that P. can play great drums when he wants to for me to, without compelling evidence, conclude that P. had MD stand in for him on the first two wreckas

Great post - just don't expect it to have the impact it ought to

I think people just wanna believe Morris did drumming on the album because some think his drumming was better. I love Prince and Morris on drums but there's proof Prince did drums on the first two albums.

Mindflux said:

whendovescry2000 said:

It's sad that you would devote this much time and verbiage to a moot argument. If I believe something and strongly adhere to said belief, then would I not strongly contest the counter opinion. I won't go on to ad infinitum, as I have already acquienced that it is Prince playing the drums, but Susan Rogers wasn't his engineer at the time so again you try to validate what I didn't disagree with - which is Prince can play drums. It was a thought - a possible thought. I didn't vehemently state it as fact. And even being a musical genius, prodigy or what ever someone would still need to show him how to tune drums or what ever instrument to achievea certain sound. But it dones't matter I concur with TrevorAyer. If he had not really gave me something to think about I would have continued to contest the Prince Morris Day drumming question - onlly to annoy you and your pompous I know GOD attitude. And how dare you attack my only be purple gotton son.

What's sad is that rather than come back with any sort of cogent argument (which you've consistently done), your only recourse is derision and avoidance (which you've occasionally done). If you can't debate and can only resort to insults and insolence, its best you don't say anything at all. At least you now admit, by alluding to a "moot argument", that your discussion was, indeed, pointless, as I noted some time ago. You also lack basic comprehension, as i didn't say that Susan Rogers was the engineer at the time - I mentioned her as one of many engineers, as well as the engineers who were there at the time, who have backed up what Prince does in the studio.It really helps if you try and understand what somebody wrote before you try to throw it back at them!

You stated many times that you thought it was MD on drums, virtually everyone has pointed out why this is not so and now you're attempting a sullen backtrack.

As for the "pompous I know GOD attitude" - first that doesn't make any sense, second I don't believe in God and third, if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Your insult says more about you than it does about me. If you're idiotic enough to assume that any of this is annoying, I suggest you go back to the playground and go and annoy some kids if you can't maintain an adult conversation. And, finally, your line "and how dare you attack my only be purple gotton son" is not only entirely grammatically incorrect and nonsensical, it leads one to believe that you have some kind of psychotic tendency.

Nice, er, knowing you

This is why evoking any discussion is moot. Someone always degrades it to fecal matter. I had conceded that it was Prince playing the drums. No problem. But still enjoy so many people sharing their views. You for some reason, have the time to compose prose, bile in content, with the emphasis on berating one's view. And when the person(s) acknowledge or aquience you still continue your relentless approach. And then you attack, personally. I know your kind. I usta do what you do. Seach Prince.org and counter any discusson, just to be a catalyst for negativity. If I could piss on you I would. .

Timmy84 said:

I think people just wanna believe Morris did drumming on the album because some think his drumming was better. I love Prince and Morris on drums but there's proof Prince did drums on the first two albums.

Thanks for sharing. It was just a thought. I really felt it might have been Morris Day. But I was wrong. Great discussion though.

jilljones said:

I don't know anybody around prince so I'll have to take other's word for it. But for my ears I'm perfectly convinced that P. played all the drums on his first several albums. While I appreciate whendovescry2000 for asking a provocative question to foster discussion, I personally do not hear nor have heard convincing rumor of anyone but Prince drumming on his first two albums.

If you listen to his demos from in and around this era, especially a track like "make it through the storm", you hear that P. was already an accomplished drummer. P. was 20 yrs old sounding like a good session drummer. No reason to think he couldn't nail "Bambi".

IMHO Everything you need to know about prince as a drummer can be summated by watching the "America" video, listening to the first four tracks of Parade and then listening to "Another Lonely Christmas" (or "The Cross"). These examples, IMHO, show the breadth of P. as a drummer: in America we see that he really does have decent drum chops and can execute fills (and double kick drum) with real independent dexterity LIVE and with no warm up (for me this is similar to watching the youtube vid of Stevie Wonder playing drums live - - its shockingly awesome how great these cats are/were). Parade, famously and has been noted on this thread, he recorded the drum tracks of the first four songs of the album in one continous take (still my favorite P. recording story, truly legendary). And then on Christmas you hear him play some amazing drums but his timing and execution are slightly off at times, as if he hadn't practiced for awhile, or perhaps his chops weren't always up to the ideas he was hearing. The Cross is just gloriously sloppy basement band drumming, dispels any notion that his timing is 'perfect'. Luckily, I don't need it to be for me to still consider him a true musical wonder.

With the Madhouse album's distinctive, "woody" snare sound and strong chops to the Parade album, to 'Darling Nikki' to "sexual suicide" there's just too much evidence that P. can play great drums when he wants to for me to, without compelling evidence, conclude that P. had MD stand in for him on the first two wreckas

Ms. JJ. Thank you so very much. I really enjoyed reading your perspective regarding this topic. And I truly concur with you. Thank you.

whendovescry2000 said:

Mindflux said:

What's sad is that rather than come back with any sort of cogent argument (which you've consistently done), your only recourse is derision and avoidance (which you've occasionally done). If you can't debate and can only resort to insults and insolence, its best you don't say anything at all. At least you now admit, by alluding to a "moot argument", that your discussion was, indeed, pointless, as I noted some time ago. You also lack basic comprehension, as i didn't say that Susan Rogers was the engineer at the time - I mentioned her as one of many engineers, as well as the engineers who were there at the time, who have backed up what Prince does in the studio.It really helps if you try and understand what somebody wrote before you try to throw it back at them!

You stated many times that you thought it was MD on drums, virtually everyone has pointed out why this is not so and now you're attempting a sullen backtrack.

As for the "pompous I know GOD attitude" - first that doesn't make any sense, second I don't believe in God and third, if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Your insult says more about you than it does about me. If you're idiotic enough to assume that any of this is annoying, I suggest you go back to the playground and go and annoy some kids if you can't maintain an adult conversation. And, finally, your line "and how dare you attack my only be purple gotton son" is not only entirely grammatically incorrect and nonsensical, it leads one to believe that you have some kind of psychotic tendency.

Nice, er, knowing you

This is why evoking any discussion is moot. Someone always degrades it to fecal matter. I had conceded that it was Prince playing the drums. No problem. But still enjoy so many people sharing their views. You for some reason, have the time to compose prose, bile in content, with the emphasis on berating one's view. And when the person(s) acknowledge or aquience you still continue your relentless approach. And then you attack, personally. I know your kind. I usta do what you do. Seach Prince.org and counter any discusson, just to be a catalyst for negativity. If I could piss on you I would. .

Actually, no - on every single point you make.

First of all, not all discussion is moot by any stretch....as long as its a discussion and not one person's didactic monologue.

You didn't concede it was Prince playing drums until 4 pages in - before that, you dismissed EVERY single piece of evidence given you. (btw - its acquiesce, not aquience)

Review our conversation - I didn't berate you at all. I gave you valid views and engaged positively in the discussion. I didn't insult you until you insulted me (your "pompous attitude" post) - I then simply responded in kind. If you can find an example of me insulting you before you did it to me, I will gladly apologise....but, you're not going to be able to.

You don't know "my kind" at all. You may know people on here who act like you used to, but I'm not one of them. I got in to this discussion because I am a professional drummer and music producer, so this kind of debate holds an interest for me. Or, at least, it should - as long as the OP is open to ideas and debate. You proved the opposite for 4 pages. You had the discourtesy of flaming and berating me simply for contributing to your thread, simply because I disagreed and was comprehensive about it. Thanks for that. Best get yourself off that new pedastal you've built for yourself.

Your repeated nonsensical responses only prove how bad you are at judging situations and people. But, by all means, please continue to display your obtuseness and stupidity for everyone.

You'd piss on me, would you? I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire

No.