Mindflux said:

Hmm - so, you're going to raise the point and ask the question, but when every single person disagrees with you, even quoting from Prince's own band members, you're just going to ignore everyone and say, "well, I still think I'm right".

You're making this a pointless discussion. It IS Prince playing on Bambi and you have NOTHING to prove it otherwise. People have given far more evidence here than you have and the opinions are also coming from people who are musicians themselves. You're not a musician, neither have you ever been anything connected to Prince, so perhaps you should stop flogging this dead horse?

Furthermore, you keep citing Kiss as an example, where Kiss's arrangement WAS correctly credited on Parade to David Z, so that's a moot point.

Prince played drums on his first two albums - period!

I wish to apologize for my Bobby Z. comment. I did not mean he wasn't good (although Prince himself stated that in an interview), he's excellent, but with Morris Day and Prince in attendance - it's like comparing John Stockton to Michael Jordan and Larry Bird.

First paragraph - I have not disagreed with every person here, but if my belief is this and yours is that, we discuss and we may discuss ad infinitum that's what this thread and site is for. In my heart I believe it's Prince playing but my logic says differently, that's the dichotomy.

Second paragraph - No discussion is pointless if it creates dialog and presents points, views and facts that one may not have been aware of. A great many people have cited facts I wasn't aware of and a few have presented "after evidence". That is "...Have you seen Prince in concert playing the drums?" The Prince promotional machine was in full effect at that time, offering a great deal of mendacious statements "He's only 17!!" This coming from his manager and Warner Brothers(people inside his camp). We all know now he was actually 19. So if they are willing to alter (lie) about his age to enhance the "next Stevie Wonder" what else would or wouldn't do to propel this talent. Although I play guitar (rhythm), piano and violin (drums pre-teen), I am not a musician. That is, I don't play in a band nor have I done session work aside from a guitar riff on a local artist studio cd. I am not connected to Prince in any way and neither are you but that DOES NOT mean I cannot interpret music. Roger Ebert isnt a director but is one of the most eminent movie critics of the 20th century. From just giving his interpretation of a film that he didn't direct, wirte or act in (or should that be Produce, Arranged and Composed by).

Dead horse or not ( I think I just shot yours ).

I cite Kiss as an example of how ownership, (who did what) can be blurred. Yes David Z. was credited but that's not how it was presented to the public. The Family members were credited on the songs but it was Prince (et al). Vanity 6 was credited on the songs but it was Prince (et al). The Time was credited on the cd's but it was Prince (et al). We all praise Morris Day's drumming but has anyone seen him actually play? My belief is that Prince did play drums on his first two albums but some tracks were done by someone else, which isn't inconceivable, especially when you want to appear and the promotional machine is running to create the one man next Stevie Wonder.

[Edited 11/23/11 8:35am]

[Edited 11/23/11 8:37am]

steakfinger said:

Prince is playing drums on the entire "Prince" album. The freaking engineer who worked with Prince on that record, (and ONLY that record) said Pricne played all the instruments and that he was most impressed with his drumming. Specifically, he claimed Prince was one of the most amazing "pocket" drummers he'd ever worked with.

It came from a person who worked with and knew Prince for a short time in a professional capacity only and he engineered the damned record, so he set-up the instruments, mic'd them and ran the tape machine while Prince was playing. End of discussion.

Is it not possible Prince played drums for the engineer and then return to the studio with Morris Day to play drums or whatever else was needed without disclosing said actions?

hhhhdmt said:

whendovescry2000 said:

"...There are several songs in Prine's work where he could have played a guitar solo but chose not to." Again, you are drawing your examples from his latter work. Please, just think about the first and second albums. Remove all following from your mind albums, songs and live performances as well as his work with the Time. With only the first and second albums as your gauge - you really can't say "HEY THAT"S PRINCE Playing!" can you?

yes i absolutely can. That is Prince on Bambi, it sounds like him. And i wasnt drawing examples on later work, i was trying to say that he has always had a habit (throughout his carrear) of not overplaying. This was true for 20 year old Prince and its still true for a 53 year old Prince.

Let me rephrase. "Did you actually see him playing drums in the studio as they were being recorded for the track Bambi?"

If it sounds like him it must be him isn't acceptable in the Prince mystique. Citing the latter's work failes to validate as he has gotten better. Michael Jordan 96 is better than Jordan 93 and so forth.

TrevorAyer said:

its hard to know what prince really did or did not play on .. he is totally capable of coming up with his own parts as well as copying his friends drumming style or allowing his drummer to record parts that prince would later redub his own drumming over

what we do know for a fact is that prince and wb care far more for the image of prince as a one man band than they do about giving proper credit or allowing other members of the band to have any of the spotlight. prince was working with other musicians all along and its totally possible that they ended up on tracks uncredited

the answer is Yes .. its possible .. nobody here has proven otherwise .. the evidence shows a consistant lack of credit where due .. so it's definately possible ..

the princaholics will shoot you down for even bringing it up .. get used to it around here

Thank you. That's all I am trying to illustrate. Around here Prince is sacred. He does everything and it's perfect.

Timmy84 said:

^ Maybe Morris was just hanging out in 1978... Bottom line was he didn't work with Prince (like that at least) again until 1981. And even then there was only brief times they did work together ("Oh Baby" from 1979).

I don't even count that brief period where they played in the same band (Grand Central from way back in 1974) because neither of them were sure where their careers were headed though they were both ambitious, Prince more so.

Until then I'm gonna believe Prince was the main drummer behind his first three albums.

Thank you. You gave your opinion, while analyzing the history and without condemming or berating me. I really appreciate that.

Thanks.

OldFriends4Sale said:

thebanishedone said:

Oldfriends you are my dear friend from the org and you did many nice things for me over the years

but i must be objective and strongly disagree.

BOBBY Z IS THAT GOOD.-Bobby is no Blackwell but he was much better drummer then people give him credit for.

It was not Bobby's fault that he played with Prince in the

height of new wave.

New Wave drums are very simple and not only that beside making his drum style more simple

Bobby had to adapt to a drummers worst enemy at the time :Linn L1.

There are recorded proofs of how good Bobby was as a drummer

example 1:Lorin Park sessions recorded in the late 70's floating on the net.

BobbY played very nice jazz,jazz fusion style drums there and he was a kid.

Atlanta 1980 Rick James support.

Listen to that gig.

Prince's sound was much more musician oriented there.Arangments were more complex,lots of unis lines,great drum breaks.

well after this tour Prince stripped down

his sound a simplified the things.

He simplified the way Bobby plays drums.

Music become more new wave and new wave is a post punk sound,punk and post punk were not about great musicianship,it was all about energy.

So it makes me sad people don't know how underrated Bobby is on drums.

NOoooo lol that's not what I said I was saying Bobby Z is a very good drummer, I was sending the quote to the person who said "nobody is disputing" Bobby Z is a good drummer

check post #53

I wish to apologize for my Bobby Z. comment. I did not mean he wasn't good (although Prince himself stated that in an interview), he's excellent, but with Morris Day and Prince in attendance - it's like comparing John Stockton to Michael Jordan and Larry Bird.

thebanishedone said:

whendovescry2000 said:

Where you even born when Prince for you orthe self-titled Prince came out?

I wAS born the night Prince held Controversy tour concert in New Orleans .

the only time i was confused was it Prince is his bass solo

on 2nighs united 2 west compton.

i thought it was Levi,because of the fluency,jazzy solo and playing it with a pick,but it was played by Prince

[Edited 11/20/11 23:05pm]

So your mother missed the Prince concert because of you? I bet she was pissed!

And this was the only time you were confused? Are you sure?

hhhhdmt said:

TrevorAyer said:

its hard to know what prince really did or did not play on .. he is totally capable of coming up with his own parts as well as copying his friends drumming style or allowing his drummer to record parts that prince would later redub his own drumming over

what we do know for a fact is that prince and wb care far more for the image of prince as a one man band than they do about giving proper credit or allowing other members of the band to have any of the spotlight. prince was working with other musicians all along and its totally possible that they ended up on tracks uncredited

the answer is Yes .. its possible .. nobody here has proven otherwise .. the evidence shows a consistant lack of credit where due .. so it's definately possible ..

the princaholics will shoot you down for even bringing it up .. get used to it around here

they were a backing band. They were not supposed to have the spotlight. Contrary to your insistence, they were not an actual band like a Deep Purple or Led Zeppelin but a backing band.(and none of the band members in the revolution were anywhere near Prince's talent, despite the revolution fanboys insisting so) People who are claiming that Morris played these drum parts need to prove it, otherwise it will be accepted that Prince played those parts.

[Edited 11/23/11 0:04am]

Proving Morris Day played drums is like proving you can spell (this is the third thread inwhich you fail to spell check - ). It's not going to happen. It is possible that Morris or someone else played drums.

whendovescry2000 said:

steakfinger said:

Prince is playing drums on the entire "Prince" album. The freaking engineer who worked with Prince on that record, (and ONLY that record) said Pricne played all the instruments and that he was most impressed with his drumming. Specifically, he claimed Prince was one of the most amazing "pocket" drummers he'd ever worked with.

It came from a person who worked with and knew Prince for a short time in a professional capacity only and he engineered the damned record, so he set-up the instruments, mic'd them and ran the tape machine while Prince was playing. End of discussion.

Is it not possible Prince played drums for the engineer and then return to the studio with Morris Day to play drums or whatever else was needed without disclosing said actions?

No. As Susan Rogers said, Prince couldn't even operate his home recording studio at that time. He needed an engineer at all times to get the tape rolling, even at home. Also, this wasn't at some studio Prince owned. He paid an engineer to get the instruments ready and operate the machinery, something Prince could not do then. AND the engineer said of all the instruments he tracked, (meaning he operated the tape machine WHILE Prince played) he was best at drums. The engineer prepares the studio and instruments for the artist before the artist arrives and stays to store the tape and put up the equipment if the studio wasn't on lock-out. The man witnessed Prince playing drums and no other engineer is credited. He even spoke specifically about fighting with Prince about snare drum mics. The engineer chose a pretty decent dynamic mic for the snare drum on I Wanna Be Your Lover, but after that song, Prince insisted on using nothing but a Shure sm57 to get a darker, more raw sound. There's an interview with that engineer floating around somewhere. You should check it out. I'm a serious musician and I know how to operate a studio. That doesn't mean I know everything OR that you should just take my word for it, but I assure you that you'll have a hard time disproving anything I say on such matters. If I don't know for sure, I won't say anything unless I preface with something like, "I have no idea for sure, but to me THIS makes sense...".

steakfinger said:

whendovescry2000 said:

Is it not possible Prince played drums for the engineer and then return to the studio with Morris Day to play drums or whatever else was needed without disclosing said actions?

No. As Susan Rogers said, Prince couldn't even operate his home recording studio at that time. He needed an engineer at all times to get the tape rolling, even at home. Also, this wasn't at some studio Prince owned. He paid an engineer to get the instruments ready and operate the machinery, something Prince could not do then. AND the engineer said of all the instruments he tracked, (meaning he operated the tape machine WHILE Prince played) he was best at drums. The engineer prepares the studio and instruments for the artist before the artist arrives and stays to store the tape and put up the equipment if the studio wasn't on lock-out. The man witnessed Prince playing drums and no other engineer is credited. He even spoke specifically about fighting with Prince about snare drum mics. The engineer chose a pretty decent dynamic mic for the snare drum on I Wanna Be Your Lover, but after that song, Prince insisted on using nothing but a Shure sm57 to get a darker, more raw sound. There's an interview with that engineer floating around somewhere. You should check it out. I'm a serious musician and I know how to operate a studio. That doesn't mean I know everything OR that you should just take my word for it, but I assure you that you'll have a hard time disproving anything I say on such matters. If I don't know for sure, I won't say anything unless I preface with something like, "I have no idea for sure, but to me THIS makes sense...".

Your presentation and arguement is, thus far, the most convincing. The Shure mic is most apt as I have read somewhere that Prince prefers Shure (not in an interview with Prince but some sound engineer/tech) this was years ago. And I would still like to believe that it is someone else but your arguement is most persuasive. The reason I continued to present counters and rebuttals is that nearly everyone here would attack me with the "Prince plays drums...DUH" argument or the "You don't know music...you're not a musician how can you even begin to understand." and the dubious..."I know Prince's sound to a T....yadda yadda yadda...you don't" or the infamous, I spoke with Bobby Z. and he told me so, and some people just attack me personally. So I thank you for offering you view and insight. I wish all Prince Orgs would handle discussions with to same approach (I've been guilty of berating people too).

whendovescry2000 said:

steakfinger said:

Prince is playing drums on the entire "Prince" album. The freaking engineer who worked with Prince on that record, (and ONLY that record) said Pricne played all the instruments and that he was most impressed with his drumming. Specifically, he claimed Prince was one of the most amazing "pocket" drummers he'd ever worked with.

It came from a person who worked with and knew Prince for a short time in a professional capacity only and he engineered the damned record, so he set-up the instruments, mic'd them and ran the tape machine while Prince was playing. End of discussion.

Is it not possible Prince played drums for the engineer and then return to the studio with Morris Day to play drums or whatever else was needed without disclosing said actions?

its possible that morris played drums on every song on for you and the self titled album, but why should we assume that with zero evidence? There is no evidence for this whatsoever.

whendovescry2000 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

NOoooo lol that's not what I said I was saying Bobby Z is a very good drummer, I was sending the quote to the person who said "nobody is disputing" Bobby Z is a good drummer

check post #53

I wish to apologize for my Bobby Z. comment. I did not mean he wasn't good (although Prince himself stated that in an interview), he's excellent, but with Morris Day and Prince in attendance - it's like comparing John Stockton to Michael Jordan and Larry Bird.

No Prince didn't say Bobby Z wasn't good. Why would he have a drummer from 19770-1986 that wasn't good?

Prince: Bobby Z was the first one to join. He's my best friend. Though he's not such a spectacular drummer, he watches me like no other drummer would. Sometimes, a real great drummer, like Morris, will be more concerned with the lick he is doing as opposed to how I am going to break it down.

When Bobby Z had the heart attack, Prince said “Nobody plays drums on the song “Purple Rain” like Bobby. Never flashy or loud, he plays like a slow burn love song. Bobby’s way of playing made each live rendition of the song better than the last.”

Bobby Z was well versed in slow jams, rock, funk, rnb and all the other styles Prince music showcased. He played this stuff live...

OldFriends4Sale said:

whendovescry2000 said:

I wish to apologize for my Bobby Z. comment. I did not mean he wasn't good (although Prince himself stated that in an interview), he's excellent, but with Morris Day and Prince in attendance - it's like comparing John Stockton to Michael Jordan and Larry Bird.

No Prince didn't say Bobby Z wasn't good. Why would he have a drummer from 1970-1986 that wasn't good?

Prince: Bobby Z was the first one to join. He's my best friend. Though he's not such a spectacular drummer, he watches me like no other drummer would. Sometimes, a real great drummer, like Morris, will be more concerned with the lick he is doing as opposed to how I am going to break it down.

When Bobby Z had the heart attack, Prince said “Nobody plays drums on the song “Purple Rain” like Bobby. Never flashy or loud, he plays like a slow burn love song. Bobby’s way of playing made each live rendition of the song better than the last.”

Bobby Z was well versed in slow jams, rock, funk, rnb and all the other styles Prince music showcased. He played this stuff live...

That was the interview I was speaking up. Thank you. No he didn't say "Bobby wasn't good." But when your boss says in an interview that you're not that spetacular it isnt really saying you're great either. If your job is to stack rocks and that's your only job and your boss says you're not the most spetacular stacker what does that really say about you? Yes Prince had him around but guess what, he didn't record any drum tracks until Purple Rain - what does that tell you?

I also corrected your 19770 to 1970.

[Edited 11/23/11 20:10pm]

I believe what Prince meant to say was that Bobby Z was not a flashy drummer. You can still be good without being flashy. And while Bobby may not be the best drummer or anything, he can play Bambi in his dreams.

those first records were sold because prince was a one man band .. not cuz the music was all that great .. that was the marketing plan .. you think anyone is gonna mention it if someone else handles a drum part here and there?

wouldn't be a one man band anymore would it?

[Edited 11/23/11 21:20pm]

TrevorAyer said:

those first records were sold because prince was a one man band .. not cuz the music was all that great .. that was the marketing plan .. you think anyone is gonna mention it if someone else handles a drum part here and there?

wouldn't be a one man band anymore would it?

[Edited 11/23/11 21:20pm]

absolutely. A song as catchy as "I wanna be your lover" would have never been a hit if people didnt know Prince was a one man band. I feel for you isnt a great song either.

whendovescry2000 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

No Prince didn't say Bobby Z wasn't good. Why would he have a drummer from 1970-1986 that wasn't good?

Prince: Bobby Z was the first one to join. He's my best friend. Though he's not such a spectacular drummer, he watches me like no other drummer would. Sometimes, a real great drummer, like Morris, will be more concerned with the lick he is doing as opposed to how I am going to break it down.

When Bobby Z had the heart attack, Prince said “Nobody plays drums on the song “Purple Rain” like Bobby. Never flashy or loud, he plays like a slow burn love song. Bobby’s way of playing made each live rendition of the song better than the last.”

Bobby Z was well versed in slow jams, rock, funk, rnb and all the other styles Prince music showcased. He played this stuff live...

That was the interview I was speaking up. Thank you. No he didn't say "Bobby wasn't good." But when your boss says in an interview that you're not that spetacular it isnt really saying you're great either. If your job is to stack rocks and that's your only job and your boss says you're not the most spetacular stacker what does that really say about you? Yes Prince had him around but guess what, he didn't record any drum tracks until Purple Rain - what does that tell you?

I also corrected your 19770 to 1970.

I'll have to disagree,

How you phrase something changes the meaning. Prince again did not say "Bobby Z is not that spectacular" as in saying he's not good. And he used Morris Day to shed light on it. He's saying Bobby Z is not someone who goes into the flashy drumming other like Morris may do. At a 1982 1st Avenue show were it was Prince & band vs Morris Day and the Time, Prince had Morris get on the drums on Party Up, (of course now Morris has to show off because Prince was punking him thru the show)

Bobby Z played on a hard rock version of Bambi

unrel version of All the Critics Love U in NY

When U Were Mine

Sexy Dancer

Still Waiting

Head

Sexuality

a more impromptu show and if uv heard this show, you can't say the man wasn't good

It doesn't mean anything,

Yet Bobby Z and many of the other musicians did parts on songs and Prince add his touch to their parts at times.

Dez could kill Prince on guitar, Dez still didn't really get to play on the album till Controversy & 1999 and Dez was there from the beginning

hhhhdmt said:

I believe what Prince meant to say was that Bobby Z was not a flashy drummer. You can still be good without being flashy. And while Bobby may not be the best drummer or anything, he can play Bambi in his dreams.

Right, the man played live everything from For - Parade

which is seriously wide range of music styles

Sometimes I wonder if people have ever even heard some of those live shows

what i meant to say was that Bobby Z could play Bambi in his sleep. Bobby was a good drummer and saying that he isnt "that good" isnt correct. A song like Bambi is no big deal for a drummer like him. I agree with Oldfriend4sale, people seriously need to watch those live shows. There is no drumming part in Prince's catalogue between 1978-86 that Bobby couldnt handle. He wasn't flashy, but he got the job done

whendovescry2000 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

No Prince didn't say Bobby Z wasn't good. Why would he have a drummer from 1970-1986 that wasn't good?

Prince: Bobby Z was the first one to join. He's my best friend. Though he's not such a spectacular drummer, he watches me like no other drummer would. Sometimes, a real great drummer, like Morris, will be more concerned with the lick he is doing as opposed to how I am going to break it down.

When Bobby Z had the heart attack, Prince said “Nobody plays drums on the song “Purple Rain” like Bobby. Never flashy or loud, he plays like a slow burn love song. Bobby’s way of playing made each live rendition of the song better than the last.”

Bobby Z was well versed in slow jams, rock, funk, rnb and all the other styles Prince music showcased. He played this stuff live...

That was the interview I was speaking up. Thank you. No he didn't say "Bobby wasn't good." But when your boss says in an interview that you're not that spetacular it isnt really saying you're great either. If your job is to stack rocks and that's your only job and your boss says you're not the most spetacular stacker what does that really say about you? Yes Prince had him around but guess what, he didn't record any drum tracks until Purple Rain - what does that tell you?

I also corrected your 19770 to 1970.

[Edited 11/23/11 20:10pm]

Not trying to be a "grammar nazi" (I swear TUMBLR comes up with some crazy shit lol) but he meant 1977.

Prince has incredible timing on his instruments, and moves almost like james brown if he wants too. You can look at james brown dancing for two seconds, and you'll know that he would probably be one of the best drummers out there if he wanted too and worked on it. Some people just got the music in their blood, and Prince is one of those few you can see and hear is breathing music. I have personally been playing drums a couple of days of the week for about a year, and I know that already I've got alot better rhythm sense and timing than many that I know have been playing for 5-8 years. Reason number one is that I always thinking music, tapping the table, drumming on my chest, beatbox etc. If your mind is working on music all the time, it doesnt take you many years of hard training to pull off something like the drum parts of bambi imo. It's actually got many cliches, and he is later doing much more incredible drumming than this, with more sophisticated fills, tasty and no overplaying the drums.

If you're a personal trainer or an athlete on high level. You would say that this dude, could have been the best on several sports, just looking at his ability to connect with all his body parts at the right time. http://www.youtube.com/wa...re=related prince did maybe not have this kind of strict control, but pretty damn close.

I agree I'm far off, and that this has nothing to do with the thread. But I'm just saying that his ability of playing the drums is absolutely there to play something like bambi with ease if he's been playing for a few years. Combination of intelligense, sponge brain and an athlete way of controlling your body it's no hocus pocus.

OldFriends4Sale said:

whendovescry2000 said:

That was the interview I was speaking up. Thank you. No he didn't say "Bobby wasn't good." But when your boss says in an interview that you're not that spetacular it isnt really saying you're great either. If your job is to stack rocks and that's your only job and your boss says you're not the most spetacular stacker what does that really say about you? Yes Prince had him around but guess what, he didn't record any drum tracks until Purple Rain - what does that tell you?

I also corrected your 19770 to 1970.

I'll have to disagree,

How you phrase something changes the meaning. Prince again did not say "Bobby Z is not that spectacular" as in saying he's not good. And he used Morris Day to shed light on it. He's saying Bobby Z is not someone who goes into the flashy drumming other like Morris may do. At a 1982 1st Avenue show were it was Prince & band vs Morris Day and the Time, Prince had Morris get on the drums on Party Up, (of course now Morris has to show off because Prince was punking him thru the show)

Bobby Z played on a hard rock version of Bambi

unrel version of All the Critics Love U in NY

When U Were Mine

Sexy Dancer

Still Waiting

Head

Sexuality

a more impromptu show and if uv heard this show, you can't say the man wasn't good

It doesn't mean anything,

Yet Bobby Z and many of the other musicians did parts on songs and Prince add his touch to their parts at times.

Dez could kill Prince on guitar, Dez still didn't really get to play on the album till Controversy & 1999 and Dez was there from the beginning

It's amazing how you got all of that from Prince saying "not the most spectacular drummer,...".

Again this thread is about who played drums on Bambi. Not if Prince could play or if Prince can even play drums. Nor is it about how good Bobby Z. is or is not. Prince's observation is open for several interpretations. But again, if your employer said you weren't that spetacular a worker, how would you feel?

Steakfinger's post addressed and answered all of my doubt.

TrevorAyer said:

those first records were sold because prince was a one man band .. not cuz the music was all that great .. that was the marketing plan .. you think anyone is gonna mention it if someone else handles a drum part here and there?

wouldn't be a one man band anymore would it?

[Edited 11/23/11 21:20pm]

bullshit, i feel for you, i wanna be your lover and why you wanna treat me so bad all had potentials of being hits based on the catchyness. Clever pop music even if it was played by a whole band. The first album on the other hand is built more around the one man band gimmick.

Hmm, Dez was a great rhythm guitarist but I don't think his riffs were better than Prince's...

Holy fuck, is this the ultimate in splitting hairs threads ever!. P played the dums, get the fuck over it and move on already.

funkyhead said:

Holy fuck, is this the ultimate in splitting hairs threads ever!. P played the dums, get the fuck over it and move on already.

funkyhead said:

Holy fuck, is this the ultimate in splitting hairs threads ever!. P played the dums, get the fuck over it and move on already.

Maybe you should read some of the previous threads BEFOREyou post! If I could pee on you right now I would.

Timmy84 said:

funkyhead said:

Holy fuck, is this the ultimate in splitting hairs threads ever!. P played the dums, get the fuck over it and move on already.

You get a brick, just for co-signing.

whendovescry2000 said:

Timmy84 said:

You get a brick, just for co-signing.

Well what's the use, you already got your answer. Thread's over.