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Avalanche This mournful song contains thoughts on racism, responsibility, and exploitation. Prince touches on the irony of the deification of Lincoln, the history of the music industry, and the mistreatment of the American Indians in three short minutes.
The use of snowflakes/Avalanche is a beautiful metaphor for the diffusion of responsibility that most claim even while participating in the most heinous of crimes. Every time Prince gets to the line “that Abraham Lincoln was a racist” I get chills. What’s your reaction to this song? | |
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I hate it. We don’t mourn artists because we knew them. We mourn them because they helped us know ourselves. | |
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Genesia said: I hate it.
That's an interesting reply. With "hate" being a rather extreme reaction. what exactly do you hate about it? | |
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Well, of course some will not like what was stated about Lincoln, but the line where Prince states "Abraham Lincoln was a racist" references Lincoln's stance on slavery. Lincoln may have wanted the slaves to be free, but he did not see them as equal or deserving as the same rights as white people, and living among them that way. Lincolin wanted to send them to Liberia. Of course that line in that song catches one's attention, as being very bold and questionable, and I'm sure many fans or listeners to that track, wonder as to why Prince made a statement like that, but it also has led some fans to research Lincoln's stance on slavery as well. Some don't like the song because of that line in particular as it speaks of an uncomfortable truth, I have no problem with it.
The first time I heard someone make a statement that Lincoln was not the image that many were misled by, and how it was taught in school, was through a friend after high school. Some believe Lincoln was the saviour for the slaves, and freed them because he was this compassionate man who really cared about them, but turns out, he was opposite of what many blacks were led to believe. If Lincoln was so compassionate about the enslaved, he would have accepted them as human beings on the same level as everyone else, but apparently he did not believe that, instead, he saw black people free or not, as less than equal to his people. That says a lot. Some have said as years went by, Lincoln had a change of heart, but you would have to research that to confirm it. Just my take on it [Edited 5/20/10 9:11am] | |
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Another song where Prince confuses politics, spirituality, and his own personal business struggles in the record industry, and one of the most glaringly wrong-headed instances of his stance as a shallow political gadfly where he regurgitates some vaguely interesting, yet unfounded contrarian view of world history that some wacko convinced him of one night over cocktails.
beautiful song though  | |
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It's gutter trash. | |
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I love the song even though Prince is a little misguided with his information? He kinda makes more problems with the song than he fixes but I still love the actual "SONG" thaCONcept |
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2elijah said: Well, of course some will not like what was stated about Lincoln, but the line where Prince states "Abraham Lincoln was a racist" references Lincolin's stance on slavery. Lincoln may have wanted the slaves to be free, but he did not see them as equal or deserving as the same rights as white people, and living among them that way. I believed he wanted to send them to Liberia. The line in that song catches one's attention, as being very bold and questionable, and in wonder as to why Prince would make a statement like that, but it also has lead some fans to research Lincoln's stance on slavery as well. Some don't like that song because of that line in particular and it speaks of an uncomfortable truth, I have no problem with it.
The first time I heard someone make a statement that Lincoln was not the image that many were misled by, and how it was taught in school, was through a friend after high school. Some believe Lincoln was the saviour for the slaves, and freed them because he was this compassionate man who really cared about them, but turns out, he was opposite of what many blacks were led to believe. If Lincoln was so compassionate about the enslaved, he would have accepted them as human beings on the same level as everyone else, but apparently he did not believe that, instead, he saw black people free or not, as less than equal to his people. That says a lot. Some have said as years went by, Lincoln had a change of heart, but you would have to research that to confirm it. Just my take on it [Edited 5/20/10 8:55am] Given the time and circumstance is should not be surprising that lincoln was a racist. But many people seem to be taken aback by something that is entirely logical. It shows how history has been simplified into "good' and "bad". Prince certainly wanted to be provacitive (sp). And you can tell by the responces to this topic that he hit a raw nerve. The song is about much more then just Lincoln but for some reason many overlook that. | |
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errant said: Another song where Prince confuses politics, spirituality, and his own personal business struggles in the record industry, and one of the most glaringly wrong-headed instances of his stance as a shallow political gadfly where he regurgitates some vaguely interesting, yet unfounded contrarian view of world history that some wacko convinced him of one night over cocktails.
beautiful song though How is there anything personal in this song about Prince? So u believe that black artist's were treated fairly in the music business? If so that surely would be an exception to how they were treated in every other aspect of american society. | |
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ernestsewell said: It's gutter trash.
Again why such a strong reaction? What so offends you about the song that it must be reduced to "gutter trash"? | |
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thaCONcept said: I love the song even though Prince is a little misguided with his information? He kinda makes more problems with the song than he fixes but I still love the actual "SONG"
How does he "make more problems"? Is the discussion of injustice equal to "making problems"? | |
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tricky99 said: 2elijah said: Well, of course some will not like what was stated about Lincoln, but the line where Prince states "Abraham Lincoln was a racist" references Lincolin's stance on slavery. Lincoln may have wanted the slaves to be free, but he did not see them as equal or deserving as the same rights as white people, and living among them that way. I believed he wanted to send them to Liberia. The line in that song catches one's attention, as being very bold and questionable, and in wonder as to why Prince would make a statement like that, but it also has lead some fans to research Lincoln's stance on slavery as well. Some don't like that song because of that line in particular and it speaks of an uncomfortable truth, I have no problem with it.
The first time I heard someone make a statement that Lincoln was not the image that many were misled by, and how it was taught in school, was through a friend after high school. Some believe Lincoln was the saviour for the slaves, and freed them because he was this compassionate man who really cared about them, but turns out, he was opposite of what many blacks were led to believe. If Lincoln was so compassionate about the enslaved, he would have accepted them as human beings on the same level as everyone else, but apparently he did not believe that, instead, he saw black people free or not, as less than equal to his people. That says a lot. Some have said as years went by, Lincoln had a change of heart, but you would have to research that to confirm it. Just my take on it [Edited 5/20/10 8:55am] Given the time and circumstance is should not be surprising that lincoln was a racist. But many people seem to be taken aback by something that is entirely logical. It shows how history has been simplified into "good' and "bad". Prince certainly wanted to be provacitive (sp). And you can tell by the responces to this topic that he hit a raw nerve. The song is about much more then just Lincoln but for some reason many overlook that. I was actually not surprised when I heard that line in the song, because of what I discussed with a friend years ago on the topic, and at that time, it was my friend that enlightened me about Lincoln. Fact is, many weren't taught about that side of Lincoln, so it pretty much shocked me when I heard about it, and wondered why in my early education, I was not taught that about him in school. Lincoln has been put on a pedestal by many educators and Americans and still is. I think instead of being angry at Prince for making that statement, it seems he only wanted to enlighten others about the truth of the man. Nothing wrong with that, but you have to admit, that the line in the song has led to many discussions regarding what Prince meant by that line. It was a clever move by him to do that. I'm sure he had to know that some of the lyrics would cause controversial reactions, but it also caused many to question Lincoln's stance on slavery. I noticed some folks were pissed off at som of the lyrics in "Dreamer" as well, for his mention of MLK, racial profiling, conspiracy theories. I guess if Prince only sings about things like the sky being blue, and not touch on social/political topics, is when some fans feel most comfortable. Thing is, you had artists like Marvin Gaye, the Temptations, Curtis Mayfield, Joan Baez, Gil Scott Heron, The Beatles, Paul Simon, etc., referencing social/political issues during the days of real music. Artists who dare to reference those issues in their music today, seem to get shunned, criticized, etc., by fans. These days it seems many fans are not interested in the message within a song. It seems we're living in an "I don't give a sh*t about the message, just sing the song to a good beat" music industry. Sing a Fergie song, like "My Hump" and suddenly, it's all good. . What else is new?  [Edited 5/20/10 9:28am] | |
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errant said: Another song where Prince confuses politics, spirituality, and his own personal business struggles in the record industry, and one of the most glaringly wrong-headed instances of his stance as a shallow political gadfly where he regurgitates some vaguely interesting, yet unfounded contrarian view of world history that some wacko convinced him of one night over cocktails.
beautiful song though 
Prince swallowed Lerone Bennett whole - and this song was the sorry outcome. As ridiculous as the whole chemtrails thing.  [Edited 5/20/10 9:14am] We don’t mourn artists because we knew them. We mourn them because they helped us know ourselves. | |
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Genesia said: errant said: Another song where Prince confuses politics, spirituality, and his own personal business struggles in the record industry, and one of the most glaringly wrong-headed instances of his stance as a shallow political gadfly where he regurgitates some vaguely interesting, yet unfounded contrarian view of world history that some wacko convinced him of one night over cocktails.
beautiful song though
Prince swallowed Lerone Bennett whole - and this song was the sorry outcome. As ridiculous as the whole chemtrails thing.
[Edited 5/20/10 9:14am] You are talking but you are not enlightening. Spell out your views. What exactly is "ridiculous"? [Edited 5/20/10 9:24am] | |
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It's a lovely song, vocally and musicaly superb.How someone can say they hate it and that it's gutter trash is beyond me..  | |
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2elijah said: tricky99 said: Given the time and circumstance is should not be surprising that lincoln was a racist. But many people seem to be taken aback by something that is entirely logical. It shows how history has been simplified into "good' and "bad". Prince certainly wanted to be provacitive (sp). And you can tell by the responces to this topic that he hit a raw nerve. The song is about much more then just Lincoln but for some reason many overlook that. I was actually not surprised when I heard that line in the song, because of what I discussed with a friend years ago on the topic, and at that time, it was my friend that enlightened me about Lincoln. Fact is, many weren't taught about that side of Lincoln, so it pretty much shocked me when I heard about it, and wondered why in my early education, I was not taught that about him in school. Lincoln has been put on a pedestal by many educators and Americans and still is. I think instead of being angry at Prince for making that statement, it seems he only wanted to enlighten others about the truth of the man. Nothing wrong with that, but you have to admit, that the line in the song has led to many discussions regarding what Prince meant by that line. It was a clever move by him to do that. I'm sure he had to know that some of the lyrics would cause controversial reactions, but it also caused many to question Lincoln's stance on slavery. I noticed some folks were pissed off at som of the lyrics in "Dreamer" as well, for his mention of MLK, racial profiling, conspiracy theories. I guess if Prince only sings about things like the sky being blue, and not touch on social/political topics, is when some fans feel most comfortable. Thing is, you had artists like Marvin Gaye, the Temptations, Curtis Mayfield, Joan Baez, Gil Scott Heron, The Beatles, Paul Simon, etc., referencing social/political issues during the days of real music. Artists who try to reference those issues in their music today, seem to get shunned, criticized, etc., by fans. We live in an "I don't give a sh*t about the message, just sing the song to a good beat" music industry these days.:shrug:What else is new?
[Edited 5/20/10 9:23am] Sometimes I think some fans see Prince as an honorary white person. Anytime he thrusts issues of race/blackness out there they have a problem with him. I don't believe prince has ever written a song that has any political content without it being heavily critized by his fans (from Ronnie talk to russia to Dreamer). | |
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tricky99 said: Sometimes I think some fans see Prince as an honorary white person. Anytime he thrusts issues of race/blackness out there they have a problem with him. I don't believe prince has ever written a song that has any political content without it being heavily critized by his fans (from Ronnie talk to russia to Dreamer).
I think it's because of his image in the early 1980s, the Purple Rain era, where he crossed racial lines, so when he sings about "social/political issues", many are uncomfortable because they may not be able to relate to the situation he sings about, and they see him as an artist that has managed to be successful in crossing racial lines, so I think think some are taken back, when he does sing about race or other social/political issues. He is an international artist, and many of his fans are not American, so many of them may also not be aware of specific race or other societal/political issues, he has referenced or still references in some of his songs. Many, not all, who don't like him singing those type of songs, you'll often find, will result in calling him names, as a way of expressing their anger/dislike for daring to sing such lyrics. But what does being angry at him for doing that changes? Nothing really, especially if the song is already released. You either like it or you don't. That's just about it. [Edited 5/20/10 9:52am] | |
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tricky99 said: errant said: Another song where Prince confuses politics, spirituality, and his own personal business struggles in the record industry, and one of the most glaringly wrong-headed instances of his stance as a shallow political gadfly where he regurgitates some vaguely interesting, yet unfounded contrarian view of world history that some wacko convinced him of one night over cocktails.
beautiful song though How is there anything personal in this song about Prince? So u believe that black artist's were treated fairly in the music business? If so that surely would be an exception to how they were treated in every other aspect of american society. the lines about the industry are the lines that are personal to him and probably the only reason he wrote/recorded the song. and what makes you think it was just black artists that went through that? as i said, it's him blurring the lines between politics/race and his own personal battles with the industry, which had nothing to do with any of that. | |
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Musically it's quite nice. Lyrically it's just a bit of a clunker for me. It's very easy to be controversial in song, but to drag a public figure (who's dead and unable to defend themselves) into a song and go against common knowledge about them is just a bit crass as far as I'm concerned.
Can't wait for Avalanche: The New Master, where he adds an extra verse about how nice Adolf Hitler was to kittens. blah blah blah |
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erik319 said: Musically it's quite nice. Lyrically it's just a bit of a clunker for me. It's very easy to be controversial in song, but to drag a public figure (who's dead and unable to defend themselves) into a song and go against common knowledge about them is just a bit crass as far as I'm concerned.
Can't wait for Avalanche: The New Master, where he adds an extra verse about how nice Adolf Hitler was to kittens. Holocaust aside, many lived and died.... | |
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this song is truth i love it  | |
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errant said: tricky99 said: How is there anything personal in this song about Prince? So u believe that black artist's were treated fairly in the music business? If so that surely would be an exception to how they were treated in every other aspect of american society. the lines about the industry are the lines that are personal to him and probably the only reason he wrote/recorded the song. and what makes you think it was just black artists that went through that? as i said, it's him blurring the lines between politics/race and his own personal battles with the industry, which had nothing to do with any of that. Even if those lines are personal to him why would that be a problem? Its not like prince is somehow immune to racism because he is an sucessful musician. No one said it was "just" black musicians. Did prince even refer "to black musicians" in general? He gave an illustration using Duke Ellington. It is widely known that black musicians were discrimanted against in many ways. U seem to have an issue with that being called out. With a well others were too. I assume if the topic was the houlocaust u would rush to say well others experinced genecide too. As if to talk about specifics is somehow not relevant. And exactly when have the lines between race/politics not been "blurry"? That in itself is completely nonsencial (sp). The personal is political, or haven't ever heard that cliche? | |
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erik319 said: Musically it's quite nice. Lyrically it's just a bit of a clunker for me. It's very easy to be controversial in song, but to drag a public figure (who's dead and unable to defend themselves) into a song and go against common knowledge about them is just a bit crass as far as I'm concerned.
Can't wait for Avalanche: The New Master, where he adds an extra verse about how nice Adolf Hitler was to kittens. Again so we shouldn't talk about dead people? So no more biographies? We endlessly talk about the dead (its called history). We constantly re-evaluate when new facts are discovered or just re-analyzed. Sometimes "common knowledge" is no more then an agreed upon lie. | |
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I honestly never found it that memorable. I know the lyrical content interests a lot of people, but it just never stuck out for me on the album. | |
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i haven't heard the song. but its not NEW news that Lincoln was a racist. for those who didn't know or are surprised by this probably need to re-examine a lot of what they learned about history (Columbus didn't 'discover' America either). America will NEVER get past race as long as they can't confront ugly truths.
To make such a statement is not an attempt at being a "political gadfly". One can't put a lyric like that alongside something as unsubstantiated as chemtrails. I LOVE political Prince (and realize many don't and i'm not surprised) i look forward to hearing the song. | |
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datdude said: i haven't heard the song. but its not NEW news that Lincoln was a racist. for those who didn't know or are surprised by this probably need to re-examine a lot of what they learned about history (Columbus didn't 'discover' America either). America will NEVER get past race as long as they can't confront ugly truths.
To make such a statement is not an attempt at being a "political gadfly". One can't put a lyric like that alongside something as unsubstantiated as chemtrails. I LOVE political Prince (and realize many don't and i'm not surprised) i look forward to hearing the song. I agree. I find that especially with American history, it is difficult to be honest about it when discussing explorers/historical figures and the like. Many Americans are uncomfortable with embracing historical truths and facts, because often times, many just want to embrace the "good" things about America's heroes/historical figures, and not ugly truths. Prince told an uncomfortable truth in Avalanche, and just because he's a musician/artist doesn't mean he can't talk about political/social/economic issues. Fela Kuti spoke of social/political/eoonomic injustices as well as colonialism in his music regarding Nigeria and Africa as a whole. He was a very political in his music, although a fine musician/performer. It's not a crime for artists to raise awareness and educate through their music, and he also did not degrade Lincoln by speaking a truth about Lincoln's stance, regarding slavery and views of those of African-ancestry, especially, in present day, that information is accessible. [Edited 5/20/10 11:41am] | |
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tricky99 said: This mournful song contains thoughts on racism, responsibility, and exploitation. Prince touches on the irony of the deification of Lincoln, the history of the music industry, and the mistreatment of the American Indians in three short minutes. The use of snowflakes/Avalanche is a beautiful metaphor for the diffusion of responsibility that most claim even while participating in the most heinous of crimes. Every time Prince gets to the line “that Abraham Lincoln was a racist” I get chills. What’s your reaction to this song? Tricky, BANG on. EXACTLY my thoughts. Thank you for a great thread, my man. Disecting the work. Aside from topic, his vocals on this track are unbelievable. The harmony on the chorus is beautiful. I get chills exactly where you say and also on the wonderfully insightfull section where he sings "and he claims innocence, just like every snowflake in an avalanche" and then proceeds into the chorus for one final, powerful time, complete with adlibs that pierce you further. Probably in my top 10, if not, top 5 songs of all time. The whole album is an absolute classic. P.S You're owning peeps. [Edited 5/20/10 12:22pm] This Post is produced, arranged, composed and performed by WetDream | |
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WetDream said: tricky99 said: This mournful song contains thoughts on racism, responsibility, and exploitation. Prince touches on the irony of the deification of Lincoln, the history of the music industry, and the mistreatment of the American Indians in three short minutes.
The use of snowflakes/Avalanche is a beautiful metaphor for the diffusion of responsibility that most claim even while participating in the most heinous of crimes. Every time Prince gets to the line “that Abraham Lincoln was a racist” I get chills. What’s your reaction to this song? Tricky, BANG on. EXACTLY my thoughts. Thank you for a great thread, my man. Disecting the work. Aside from topic, his vocals on this track are unbelievable. The harmony on the chorus is beautiful. I get chills exactly where you say and also on the wonderfully insightfull section where he sings "and he claims innocence, just like every snowflake in an avalanche" and then proceeds into the chorus for one final, powerful time, complete with adlibs that pierce you further. Probably in my top 10, if not, top 5 songs of all time. The whole album is an absolute classic. P.S You're owning peeps. [Edited 5/20/10 12:22pm] Thank u. We are in complete agreement on this song. Its a wonderfully understated album. its this kind of musical flexibility that seperates prince from the vast majority of artists past and present. | |
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tricky99 said: errant said: the lines about the industry are the lines that are personal to him and probably the only reason he wrote/recorded the song. and what makes you think it was just black artists that went through that? as i said, it's him blurring the lines between politics/race and his own personal battles with the industry, which had nothing to do with any of that. Even if those lines are personal to him why would that be a problem? Its not like prince is somehow immune to racism because he is an sucessful musician. No one said it was "just" black musicians. Did prince even refer "to black musicians" in general? He gave an illustration using Duke Ellington. It is widely known that black musicians were discrimanted against in many ways. U seem to have an issue with that being called out. With a well others were too. I assume if the topic was the houlocaust u would rush to say well others experinced genecide too. As if to talk about specifics is somehow not relevant. And exactly when have the lines between race/politics not been "blurry"? That in itself is completely nonsencial (sp). The personal is political, or haven't ever heard that cliche? he didn't say anything about black artists. YOU did and you are who i was responding to. if you want a debate, be able to keep track of your own thoughts. and if you want a debate, find it with someone else. i've posted my opinion of this song (and others like it) already, and in the 800 other threads about it in the last 8 years. i'm moving along now. | |
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It's no accident he chose white snowflakes as his metaphor - the song is more racist drivel (see: Rainbow Children, One Nite Alone Live).
It's heartbreaking to hear an artist I'd respected my whole life denigrate my entire race because of something I had no control over. He built his career on not caring about race/gender/orientation - then in 2001 he decides white are evil, women are lesser beings, and gays should be condemned. Oy vey. Also, I don't think anybody claimed Lincoln was a saint, that was never the point. He was the central figure of the Civil War and the freedom of slaves, and that is what's taught. His personal feelings are irrelevant. |
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