billymeade said:

I agree with your post

tricky99 said:

Tricky, thanks for starting the thread. As I stated earlier, I have been listening to One Nite Alone regularly for the past few weeks because I think it is a wonderful album that shows a side of Prince that is not often heard across an entire album. This thread enticed me to post because Avalanche is one of my favorite songs on the album musically and lyrically because of its honesty and beauty.

I wonder if people who have problems with this song have problems with other Prince songs that speak about race/racism. Is it only the ones like Avalanche, Muse 2 the Pharoah, When Will We be Paid, 2045 Radical Man or Family Name that overtly discuss race, especially as it relates to black people? Do they have problems with the ones that more covertly allude to race in a line or two or are deemed less incendiary like Raspberry Beret, Walk Don't Walk, Slave 2 the System, Sacrifice of Victor, Don't Play Me or Days of Wild?

I know people hate Muse 2 the Pharoah, which is one of my favorites from TRC, because, again, some say it is racist. I disagree. Anyway, it really would be interesting to hear views on some of these other songs.
[Edited 5/21/10 7:14am]

mike3121 said:

I disagree with his post. Of course, we can agree to disagree and I have no problem with that.

However, I am curious as to how the personal feelings of a president are irrelevant in a case like Lincoln's. I agree that his personal "feelings," i.e. likes and dislikes are his own and he is entitled to them. However, if a president believes that another race should be subjugated based solely on their race; believes that race should not have the right to vote nor other rights afforded the other citizens of his nation; believes that races should be separated, I think that is very relevant.

Lincoln's racist ideologies were part of the reason why slaves were freed from bondage but granted few if any other rights. They are why for an additional 100 years after slavery, the descendants of those "freed" slaves had to endure unspeakable torment that was sanctioned by US laws. The same poisoned tree from which Lincoln ate bore fruit that poisoned the minds of many lawmakers and presidents who followed him resulting in another horrid period in American history - Reconstruction/Jim Crow.
[Edited 5/21/10 7:24am]

bellanoche said:

You are so on point--> "Reconstruction/Jim Crow" = upgraded forms of slavery/control.
[Edited 5/21/10 7:17am]

bellanoche said:

i think for some, as other threads have shown have a problem with the more OVERT songs like u mentioned. i see all the time, in all walks of life how difficult it is to have HONEST discussions about race, racism, politics, white privilege, black rage, etc. our 'cultural competency' in this area is SOOOO lacking. so i'm not surprised that ppl don't want Prince to evince that he is a BLACK MAN in his music (no matter how "feminine") and all that goes with that in the type of world we live (and have lived in). they want to say, oh he's just mad at the record industry, he should shut up they did this and that for him. he's a confused conspiracy theorist, never, WOW, that's a 'hard truth'. i don't want to deal with that, especially not from Prince. let him be the complex human being he is, flaws and all, but don't disparage the truth when YOU can't handle it.

datdude said:

So true, well said.

bellanoche said:

My take:

"Sacrifice of Victor" is an uplifting song that can apply to anyone who grew up facing adversity - keep your head up, keep walkin' down that road. "Walk Don't Walk" falls into that category too. A perfect example of Prince talking about race but allowing other races to apply the lyrics to their own experience.

"Slave 2 the System" and "Radical Man" try to compare Prince's hatred of record companies with slavery, which is stretching it. Also, the screech-solo in Radical Man is awful.

"When Will We Be Paid" oversimplifies the reparations issue, but damn if it doesn't kick some ass.

I am unclear on any racial overtone to "Raspberry Beret".

I love it. One of his best songs for a long time. The lyrics might be misguided, but what's new? Musically and vocally it's quite something.

2elijah said:

The word "uncomfortable truth" has been used a lot in this thread. I think it's a misconception that white people are uncomfortable discussing slavery. It's not hush-hush, it's not a big secret - we are well aware of what happened in the past.

I think the only lyrics in "Dreamer" that irk anyone are the lines about chemtrails. I pray he was just being silly and doesn't really believe that garbage.

datdude said:

O.K. Last time. I promise. (I think).

It's hard for me to let things go when I see the words, "hush it up", make excuses" "difficult to have honest discussion". I and others have made hundreds of points on this thread and others like it and I don't think I've ever seen someone stop to say, oh I see you have a point too. Heck someone on this thread has gone so far as to say they can't work for "whitey", and not only aren't people rushing to get away from it, some of you are backing/feeling that vibe. How exactly are we to progress when that's the tide some folks are swimming with/against?

Let me ask you each something? Not on a personal level, but on a general level.

Throw a percentage at me on how many people you believe feel the way you do about issues like this on race relations but don't think gay people should be able to marry? 20% 50% 80%. Does that mean all of the people in that percentile are idiots? Are they bigoted? Are they backwoods country folk who have their collective heads up their arse?

Again, CONTEXT M.A.T.T.E.R.S.

Lincoln lived in a time when slavery was legal. How is that not relevant when in 2010 there are still countless issues facing people of every race/religion/sexual orientation.

I am a heterosexual male who happens to believe that gay people should enjoy all of the same priveleges any other citizen on the planet has, marriage, adoption anything.

And if I want to change the viewpoints of those who don't espouse my beliefs, should I adopt the tactics of someone like Gandhi, exercising and emphasizing patience, tolerance and wisdom. Or someone like Glen Beck. Fear mongering.

Step back for a second and ask yourself, which of those tactics does:

"AAAAAbraham Lincoln was a racist" more closely resemble? Do any of you like Glen Beck?

Sure Lincoln had many flaws. He had many ideas that were out and out wrong. But he was ALSO one of the most important Presidents in this country's history.

As I type this, there are so many other rabbit holes we could lead this conversation down. Why did it take another 50 years after the abolition of slavery for women to get the right to vote? What are the lingering repercussions of that sentiment that still exist today?

This goes on and on. Sexual preference/religion/race.

Some of you hear Prince sing that line and say to yourselves, "That's right. Preach the truth". I hear that line and I say, "Oh boy, another divisive hand grenade".

To each their own.
[Edited 5/21/10 8:51am]

billymeade said:

"Uncomfortable truths" simply define truths many people in general are uncomfortable with embracing. No one said that was referring to white people in general, but basically many people , in general, who don't want to hear specific truths of their heroes or historical figures, which means anyone can feel that way. The thing is, people shouldn't be condemned for expressing those truths. The lyrics in "Avalanche" has nothing to do with dividing people, because he decided to sing about specific time in American history involving a historical figure that, maybe should not have been given "all" the credit for "freeing" the slaves.

There were many unknowns who will never be known, who risked their lives, and had actual human compassion for the enslaved, and recognized them "in spirit", so-to-speak, as humans deserving of the freedom of all humans, but those unknowns who felt that way, could not publically express those feelings, because of the racist beliefs and laws against the enslaved, and they would be labeled n****r lovers and traitors to their own people.

I understand what some here have said though about racism, and America's history of slavery not being able to be discussed as a "specific topic" here often, without it being compared, "belittled" or taken-down a notch, by others comparing other situations/tragedies to it, which is almost like a form of dismissing the importance and value of those lives affected in that specific situation, and I think many people here "blindly" do that.


I'm not white so I cannot tell you how a white person feels on this topic unless they expressed those feelings/opinions on their own, I can only express my experiences with what I've learned about American history and infomration I shared and discussed with others on this topic, and through many of those discussions there are people in general who are uncomfortable hearing anything negative about their heroes/historical figures, but I think many Americans forget that those heroes/historical figurew they tend to put on pedestals, are just human beings with flaws, just like the rest of us.

As far as the lyrics in "Dreamer", yes I remember many fans making comments that they don't like Prince singing about race/social/political issues as well as conspiracy theories, but I think many fans also don't remember at times that Prince is a human being with opinions of his own on those type issues,, whether anyone agrees with him or not, and they fans maybe shouldn't always expect him to only sing about how red the roses are and how the violets are still blue.
[Edited 5/21/10 8:52am]

billymeade said:

Thanks for the response. The bolded part of your statement says it all to me. I thought this might be the issue for whites with these songs because it seems to always be an issue when black people talk about the black experience in this country. It has a lot to do with the overall belief/perception of blacks that many still hold in this country. Because the race issue as it relates to black has been unresolved, many whites want us to candy coat it or diminish it in some way by adding in the suffering of others. Discussions about black civil rights always have to be inclusive and stretch to Jews, gays, women, etc. because the latter groups are more sympathetic than blacks who many wish would just "get over it," especially rich and successful ones like Prince. No one says that the Jews have to allow others to feel included when the horror of the Holocaust is discussed. yet, blacks have to be "inclusive" so as not to be seen as bitter or racist. Why do other races have to be included in Prince's discussions about race? Can he not freely give his perspective based on his experiences as a black man?

The racial reference in Walk Don't Walk about walking on your side of the street relates specifically to blacks who under Jim Crow had to cross the street when a white person passed them. I don't know any other group that had to do that. However, sense the reference is somewhat veiled, I guess it is more easily digested by some.

The racial reference in Raspberry Beret comes when he mentions the boss who didn't like his kind because he was too leisurely. Again, a veiled reference to the oxymoronic stereotype that blacks were lazy. This stereotype has often been used to justify not hiring black people.

2elijah said:

Bravo on another excellent post! I am always impressed with your insight into these kinds of topics and your eloquent delivery of it. You really understand so much of what is above and beneath the surface. The comment about dismissiveness is so true. For example, why are Prince's views dismissed as garbage? How disrespectful is that? Can anyone prove that the chemtrails theory is completely off base? Some still argue about Tuskegee, the sterilization of black women in hospitals in the 1960s, and toxic waste/pollution dumping/pumping in poor black areas despite facts that prove these practices took place. And these are the ones that made headlines.

I disagree with some of the perspectives here, but I have not referred to them as garbage. Again, when it comes to issues of racism as it relates to blacks these kinds of comments are bandied about so freely. It buttresses the opinion that many whites are uncomfortable with discussing this issue when the mere recounting of facts is met with such disdain. That time of emotional response is the result of the absence of critical thought on a topic. Thinking critically about this topic means viewing it from different perspectives, considering FACTS and discussing things skillfully and passionately but not without logic/reason. I understand why some whites are uncomfortable with a song like this, and I stated that reason why in previous posts. However, being uncomfortable with a topic does not make that topic garbage.

Again, thanks for leaving your stamp on this thread. Hopefully after the dust clears, some will step back from their emotions and try to be more enlightened about why Prince and others feel the way they do. No one is saying they have to degree, but they should at least try to understand and respect an opposing view, especially when it is based on FACT.

bellanoche said:

You are ridiculous Changed the history of the nation FOR GOOD. Nice try though

bellanoche said:

ya, I love, love, love paul mooney, I'm going to read his book soon. I've skimmed through it already. Chuck, I'm sure was ripped off but never to the point that he didn't appreciate what the chess bros did for him. I guess he just saw being ripped off as part of american life, he ripped off people whenever he got a chance so he probably saw some of the things like his being listed as just a co-writer for some of his early hits as just part of the business.

also, i've told this story before on here, but the ona album itself was really a one off for Prince and for me, one of his best. I had burned lots of music off the internet and didn't label them all, i put this unlabeled cd into the player and was instantly mesmerized, the songs kept me entranced, then Avalanche hit me like a ton of bricks. As I've said, you could hear the bitterness, the years of self-denial in the mans voice, this is one of Prince's best in my mind. I really don't fault him too much for a little innaccuracy, I personally don't look for great intellectual forethought in my artists just as I don't look for great songs out of some of my intellectual heroes, that would be unrealistic. Prince is not a great thinker or super intellectual or even that well educated, he is simply one of the greatest genius' in american music history and that's enough for me.

2elijah said:

True, but again I look at a man's actions. Personally I don't care if someone thinks homosexuality is disgusting & unnatural as long as they are not in favor of discrimination and treats everyone with respect. When I meet people and feel an uncomfortable prejudice coming my way (which definitely happens), I feel bad for the world , but I don't hold it against them if they treat me with respect.

If MLK was discovered to have deep seeded prejudice toward white people, I might find it interesting to learn, but it wouldn't affect my view of what he did, which was spread a message of equality. Hell, it would make him all the more noble to not succumb to those feelings. I'm sure Ghandi didn't like everyone either, but that is not how he acted.

Hitler probably hated himself more than he hated Jews, but that doesn't change his actions--for which he will always be remembered as a monster.

Whatever politics were involved I believe Lincoln knew slavery was wrong or he would not had abolished it. There is a difference between personal feelings and what we know to be right. EVERYONE has some kind of ugly feelings from time to time. I believe Lincoln acted on what he knew to be right.

A different scenario is Kanye calling out George Bush. He took tons of flak for that, but he was commenting on a man who was sitting in power and not doing the right thing about a horrible situation. In that situation, I think it's people's responsibility to expose the truth.

I don't see what productive purpose it serves to call out Lincoln, except to cast a very cynical outlook upon humanity. I think the story of a man rising above his [alleged] personal weaknesses is more inspiring than saying "it doesn't matter who it is, you can't trust them."

NDRU said:

I dont' see what productive purpose it serves to continue telling comfortable lies about historical figures, regardless of their race, and yes it was later exposed that MLK, JFK, RFK may have had affairs outside their marriages, and many people were not too happy to hear that news, being exposed about individuals they held in high regard.

No crime was committed in the lyrics of Avalanche, as many seem to forget that Lincoln was not the only reference in the song It only shows that no one is perfect no matter what pedestal people put their "heroes/historical" figures on. For example, most know about Columbus and he's given credit for supposedly discovering land that was already occupied, yet he's held in high regard by many, despite the acts of violence that took place against the original inhabitants, when he and his men arrived on many Caribbean islands, as well as on the shores of North America, and at the end of the day, Columbus gets a holiday named after him. Yet dare to "expose truths" about him, and you will be criticized for it. So the bottom line in my opinion, is that many Americans seem to prefer a good night's sleep by embracing "comfortable lies".about much of America's historical figures an events.
[Edited 5/21/10 13:46pm]

tricky99 said:

If anything, this song had me think and ask myself, was Lincoln a racist.

2elijah said:

oh, it's no crime for Prince to sing about anything he wants, I just don't agree with the attitude of bringing Lincoln down. We don't even have to ignore Lincoln's alleged racism, but in my mind it doesn't have to mean he was not a great man because his actions (the most important ones) were not those of a racist.

But the examples in the song are not really the same. The difference is that the others (Hammond or whoever) exploited black musicians for their own gain. I think Lincoln did not gain much personally from his actions but stress & death, but millions of others did gain, and he set a good example for the world.

Columbus is different because he really didn't do anything good at all And the thing he gets credit for had already been done, like you said. I have no interest in celebrating columbus.

But I am not saying we should not know the truth. In fact, I think people should acknowledge negative human impulses (anger, prejudice, the desire to cheat, violence) as normal, otherwise I think we'll never rise above them.

So, here we are covering this topic for the 8000 time. And, still, on this topic, I find a lot of the white fans being hypocritical. Prince is cool as long as he is exploring other parts and aspects of his identity, but when he decides to explore issues and topics related to his African American identity it's dribble or bullshit or him just trying to be something he is not? So, a black man denying his blackness or lying to the public that he is mulatto like he did in three different magazines in 1980 is normal, but embracing or exploring his African American heritage or issues related to it is not normal? I guess Langston Hughes was right. A good number of whites only like blacks as long as blacks spend most of their life trying to prove to whites how much like white they are. Or, as Miles Davis writes in his autobiography that white critics seemed to only praise him when he had white band members.

Secondly, Prince tells the truth about Abraham Lincoln in this song. First, Lincoln’s goal was not to free the slaves. The Emancipation Proclamation was a military move. The North was losing the war because the South, whose economy was solely based on slavery (free labor), was winning the war because they had more money. If you don't know, it takes money to launch and win a war. So, as a way to lessen or cripple the South's economy, Lincoln issued The Emancipation Proclamation, giving amnesty to any slaves that fled the South. Now, here is the important part. He did not free the slaves in states that were loyal to the Union or North. Therefore, Lincoln did not end slavery. It was never his goal to end slavery!!! Thus, he is not an important figure in the liberation struggle of African Americans. At best, he was a pimp, using the condition of African Americans for his own good and not for their good. Also, Lincoln said publically on at least two occasions that the white race was superior to the black race and that the best that could be accomplished was to send the black race back to Africa. So based on the facts, Prince is telling the truth.

Now, the question is why does the truth bother so many people??? Why is it that whenever Prince attempts to engage or explore aspects of his African American ancestry, this seems to anger so many people, especially when it is common knowledge that he is African American? This time, it isn't Prince that needs a history lesson; it is those of you who are denouncing Prince for this song.

1725topp said:

The truth doesn't bother people, Prince's delusion does!

1725topp said:

The song is not pro-black. it's anti white. If it's about black history, why mention Native Americans?

And it labels all whites as guilty for what some whites did:

"So u sign yo name and he claims innocence
just like every snowflake in an avalanche..."

NDRU said:

Lincoln was not put down because a truth was told about him. nor did the lyrics state Lincoln did not do great things for his country and "his" race. The supporting lyrics to the first lyrics about Lincoln, clearly states a fact, "that if it wasn't for the 13th amendment we (all Blacks in America) would not have been free". Those lyrics pretty much nails a historical fact.

Here's an excerpt below that easily explains the situation. Lincoln had already died before the 13th Amendment was passed in 1865, and it was the 13th Amendment, not Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation, that freed all slaves in America and abolished slavery. [/b] Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation only declared freedom for slaves within specific states, leaving other states to continue the practice of slavery. Another thing people have to re-educate themselves about is that Lincoln was not responsible for freedom of all Blacks who were enslaved in the world, and I think many people think he was. Slavery in America and the Caribbean ended at different time periods, and Lincoln had nothing to do with the freedom of black slaves in the Caribbean.


[Edited 5/24/10 17:41pm]

1725topp said:

crazydoctor said:

It song is not just about the enslavement of Blacks and how they were "all" really freed in America. The lyrics also mentions the injustices done to Native Americans, and leads us into future days, when the same manipulation methods/injustices were done to individuals by those with power/wealth, while the ones who were the prey. were often cheated and mistreated. So I believe the song mainly focuses on the manipulation/untruths and injustices that have been practiced by those with power and wealth over time.

During the times referenced in the song, who were those in power? With wealth? Do the lyrics lie or tell a truth?
[Edited 5/21/10 17:38pm]

black history is AMERICAN history. (failure to acknowledge this is ANOTHER reason we'll never get past race in this country). and P's inclusion of Native Americans in the song speaks to the fact that oppressed, colonized, displaced ppl often identify and empathize with each other (as ppl of "color").

1725topp said:

You absolutely, positively....nailed it.

wow I stand corrected. this is a great thread.

bellanoche said:

Once again, I appreciate your words. I think it is great that we can discuss and analyze a Prince song with appreciation for one another's opinions, as well share opinions with others here, even if all of us either agree or disagree on the purpose and message of the song. Good thread with a lot of input
[Edited 5/21/10 18:20pm]