billymeade said:

I don't see it as racist, Prince basically focused on saying Lincoln was racist. He never said the entire white race was. If a history professor said the same thing about Lincoln, would you call him a racist or just someone educating you on Lincoln's views on slavery and how he felt about freed blacks?

Should people deny that all the ugliness of American history happened, which involved, rape, butchery, enslavement, human trafficking/kidnapping, branding humans like cattle, etc., etc.? I think not. Many parts of American history is ugly, and it is just something that people have to learn to accept, because it happened, it was a "reality". Real lives were affected by it. No one wants to hear an uncomfortable truth, but those ugly truths have a lot to do with how America became wealthy and powerful.

It's not an easy thing to accept, but why continue lying just for the sake of mental comfort, while ignoring that those past situations were real? Peoples' lives were affected by it, black, white, natives, and as ugly as those times were, it is part of the fabric of this country's history. If oak trees could talk, they would have plenty of songs to sing. about that time period.
[Edited 5/20/10 13:47pm]

billymeade said:

my point exactly. about ppl not being able to handle truth. snowflakes are white, should he have made them purple. history 101; the majority of imperialist domination and colonization has been perpetrated by those of European descent. does that denigrate the ENTIRE race. NO. should u take it PERSONALLY, no. DEAL! geez!

tricky99 said:

Man, I agree with Genesia and errant in one thread! Sounds beautiful but yes, he's mega confused in this song.

billymeade said:

Are there other colored snowflakes besides white?

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

It's a sign of the apocalypse!

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Prince should have been very careful, white people are the most sensitive people on earth when it comes to stereotypical comments coming their way. Some of us like me shrug our shoulders when some mexican, black or other persuasion is wronged and it comes out on the news, we just realize that's always underneath the surface. People want to deny it they can but it's there. As for the song, I thought Prince was only wrong in trying to feminize and distance his own blackness throughout his career, and like Michael did, only grasped to blackness when it suited him. However, the song itself is a masterpiece, innacurrate lyrics and all. My interpretation was it was a geyser of resentment and self denial expressed itself in that song. I love an emotional artist even if they are a little wrong. His biggest innaccuracy in the song in my mind was his lyrics about John Hammond and Duke Ellington, he was plain wrong about both these men. John Hammond was an integrator and a boon for american culture who discovered and brought out more black and white music than anyone ever. But..., he never had a damned thing to do with Duke Ellington and Duke was a character so monumental, nothing like being black ever contained his personality. He would never have been victimized by anyone to the degree the song tries to portray, and I repeat, he never worked with Hammond. I've heard they had prickly encounters but never did business and never really liked each other, it does not equal what Prince is saying in the song.

mozfonky said:

How can you feminize race?

I've always liked it, the melancholic mood touches me.

I know Lincoln as the emancipator but not the abolitionist.

mozfonky said:

Interesting take but if prince is inaccurate about the situation with Hammond and Duke I'm sure its becuase he picked up bad information. I sure he didn't make it up out of thin air. So unless you've read every bio about Duke u can't be sure that wasn't stated somewhere.

Where I do have a problem with u is this term "feminize his blackness". As a gay black man I find that offensive. As if the only legitmate presentation of a black man must be super masculine. There are multitude of black men who are by nature feminine. U have no right to denigrate them.

tricky99 said:

You pretty much nailed it, as far as my reaction goes. Love the song, the message, the music and all. Classic and powerful. I'd love to hear him talk about writing that song and what inspired him to write it at that time. Was there a project - a film - it was for, or just a song that came to mind for some reason?

tricky99 said:

Well now it's the apocalypse for sure because I agree with Tricky99 too!

Yeah, that was a super ass ignorant statement for sure.

tricky99 said:

I'm sorry you took it that way but black men have often feminized and or emasculated themselves somehow. Prince and Michael both had to emasculate themselves to be as big as they were. Strong, masculine black men like Rick James always had troubles. Prince and Michael had to adopt those things, and it worked, but it was a denial of self to some degree. I'm sure you know that white america has always had major issues with black male sexuality, so nothing new there. I said nothing against gay people at all and I stand by my statements. As far as the Hammond reference, it's just plainly wrong, Hammond had nothing to do businesswise with Duke, Hammond also wasn't a crook who hid in shadows looking to rip people off, he was a good man and a gift to american music. I could care less where Prince got his info, it's plain wrong.

mozfonky said:

Um, prince and michael Jackson are effeminate men and were NEVER ever in any universe going to be Hercules!

Get off this trip because it's straight to hell with this shit.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

maybe i should have just said emasculate himself, is that better? Black people denying that black entertainers had to eat their share of crow in the past hundred years are just deluded. If it wasn't tomming like early jazz men had to do or wearing dresses like lots of black superstars have found themselves at one time or another, it's going to be some kind of attack on masculinity itself. How do we know what Prince's reasons were?

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Prince was not always that effeminate and I don't know how effeminate Michael was either, lots of people have said he faked the voice and all. I'm sorry we don't see eye to eye but hey that's life.

mozfonky said:

Hey, if you can't see that Prince was effeminate straight from his mom's pussy, you're the deluded one

also, are you old enough to remember Michaels prime? One of the most talked about things was his absence of a love life or any overt interest in females. America liked it's black heroes metaphorically castrated and harmless. Strong black men never went throught their primes without major interruptions of their careers in earlier eras. Even today, lots of white americans hate Muhammad Ali's guts and believe he was a coward for not going to vietnam.

mozfonky said:

Are you kidding? Michael jackson was born in the wrong body and not because he was black!

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

haha, have you seen pics of him in the early days? I've heard people say he wasn't doing all the fem stuff in the early days and even in his chris rock interview he just said it was "rock and roll" or something to that effect. I never really bought all the fem stuff and we all know he's a very homophobic guy for whatever reason.

BTW, is that you in your profile? Jesus christ, i could see why you'd be offended, uhh, just forget everything i said.

I love this song! Melodically it reminds me of the intro to "The Stranger" by Billy Joel. I remember telling Femi Jiya that opinion during the Xenophobia celebration. He seemed to really like that observation.

I also had happened to watch the Indian massacre scene in the film Little Big Man late one night before first hearing this song in headphones. This combined with the memory of how joyfully Prince and his band had performed "Sing a Simple Song", trading off the lyrics, each jumping to the mic, on the opening verse on The One Night Alone Tour (I was front row center)... devastated me when I heard the song.

mozfonky said:

The GOP and right wing Christianity is full of self loathing closet cases. Ever considered that?

mozfonky said:

THAT

IS

ME

EFFEMINATE

AND

ALL



you're chasing up the wrong conspiracy tree.

I thought this thread was about the lyrics in "Avalanche". Interesting how it turned.
[Edited 5/20/10 16:56pm]

blackwell1 said:

Agree.

2elijah said:

It sure is. When someone acts ridiculous of COURSE the thread is gonna hit a rollercoaster loop

Brilliant song. Achingly poignant. Perfect lyrical metaphors that examine the personal and political. The phrase about individual responsibility in attacking racism perfectly references the idea of history repeating itself. And musically, the vocal arrangement, gorgeous climaxing piano fills - Prince at his peak.

To call this song "gutter trash" is disrespectful to the artistic legacy of Prince and the African-American tradition of political protest in song.

[quote]

tricky99 said:

(Bolded part) You described it well in your statement Tricky. It covers the battle at wounded knee, slavery, and artists who were taken advantage of by those in the music industry. It describes how the "haves" over time, have taken advantage of the "have nots", and became wealthy by preying on them, and he shows the varying level of degrees that this form of mistreatment can happen to various groups.


AVALANCHE - Lyrics/song - Prince

[Edited 5/20/10 17:21pm]

The song bugs me.

It's another case of Prince wanting to expose some sort of hidden truth, but in this case even if what he says is true about Lincoln, I think that it's fair to judge this particular man by his actions and not his personal flaws.

A lot of people have the right beliefs but do not make the right decisions when it really matters. That is no better than having fucked up beliefs and making the right decisions--I think it's a lot worse, in fact.

Whatever his personal beliefs or his motivations do not change the fact that he did the right thing and made maybe the single most important decision/change this country has ever seen! He ended slavery in this country!! And died for it.