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vainandy said: The Motown show was the first time white people had ever seen it. Black people were doing it down here as far back as 1979 and 1980 and it was called The Glide. As for Jeffrey Daniels, you should see the "Solar Galaxy Of Stars Live" DVD that has concerts from The Whispers, Lakeside, Dynasty, and Shalamar from the year 1980. Jeffrey Daniels did The Glide better than anyone I've ever seen do it. He did it backwards, forwards, and side to side. On their very next album after that show, they did even the song "Pop Along Kid" about Jeffrey's dancing. 
MJ also called up Dick Clark for his James Brown video before that Moonwalk as well. Damn I miss the legendary Sounds Of Los Angeles Records. Hard to believe that that studio is where so called Gangsta rap was born. |
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violetblues said: Harlepolis said: "Agree/Disagree" what the hell am I thinking?
Anyway I found this post to be very intersting, it was shared to me by a fellow org pal(who posts in Okayplayer, where he found it). Disregard it if its a repost. First off most people on here know I think Prince is one of the greatest artists of the past 50 years. I can't think of anyone that has made as many songs that I have enjoyed as much as I have his. If I listed my top 10 concerts ever, the 6 Prince shows I've seen would all be there. That said ..... Prince was NOT good for black music people. I think a lot of what made him great also made him destructive. His creativity and confidence turned him into a sort of musical demigod. He didn't need a band to create and record with because in his mind nobody could play his music as well as he could. He didn't use background singers for the most part for the same reason. Prince was the show, standing above all others and he wanted to make sure you didn't forget that. Now of course Prince wasn't the first artist to feel this way. But he was the first that had the technology to isolate himself creatively the way he did. When you have the talent and ideas Prince did at the time, this isn't a bad thing in and of itself. The problem is, it inspired less creative and original people to follow in his footsteps. The end result was a parade of mediocre singer/songwriter/producer wannabes that would have been much better severed (creatively) being part of a larger collective. Just because you can make music by yourself doesn't mean you should. Of course existing bands also took note of what Prince was doing. They started cutting the "fat" and in doing so, knocked over the first domino in death of the black band. As I said, Prince wasn't the first artist to have an ego. But he was the first to go to the lengths he did to keep from being shown up. One need to look no further than his first two side projects ... The Time and Vanity 6.... for prove of his obsessive narcissism. Flyte Tyme by everyone's account was the baddest band in Minneapolis. So what did Prince do when he signed them? Fired their lead singer (Alexander O'Neal) and replaced them with his drummer friend Morris Day. The fact Morris couldn't sing meant nothing to Prince. As a matter of fact in his mind this was a good thing. This meant one less threat to Prince. But even this wasn't enough for him. Prince went into the studio and recorded almost all (if not all, there are various opinions on this) the music and background vocals for the first Time album. Think about this for a minute. You sign a band and then record an album under their name with your friend who you made lead singer. But that didn't matter to P. He was selling an alternate image of himself with the group. He wasn't producing in a way that would bring out the creativity in his artist, he was acting as a puppet master with his hand guiding every sight and sound associate with them. They weren't artist, they were props. Never was this truer than with his next project Vanity 6. Never before in black music history had there been a group that had this much style over substance. None of the girls could sing ...not even in a serviceable way really ... play any instruments or even dance. With Vanity Prince created the video chick before the video era even really kicked off. Once again, Prince was the star and his project was his window dressing. With Vanity 6 Prince proved you could market and sell records even though the "artist" had little to no talent. It would be foolish to think the industry didn't take note of this. This knowledge along with the emergence of the music video formed a powerful one two punch that marginalized vocal talent. The interesting thing in all of this is how Prince slowly reverted back to more "traditional" ways as his creative tank started to run dry. Now days he loves to talk about "real music" and sing the praises of the funk and jazz stars of the past. He basks in the spotlight as the symbol of a by gone era. The last of his kind. And once again Prince is the show. And once again, Prince got exactly what he wanted. Well? 
[Edited 12/25/09 16:10pm] A little myopic, especially when referencing artists know mainly only to the fam base. Mock artists produced by either a studio or a label or some other talented writer or producer is nothing new to black or white music, To me It's more about fans having the obsessive tendencies that will have them look up in the sky and see their Idol in clouds, toast, tortillas and ink blots. Prince's scope of influence in music is good, but again, if anybody wants to propose any argument about someone's negative impact on modern black music, stick to more plausible candidates such as MJ, Stevie or Elvis. [Edited 12/28/09 18:57pm] Huh? | |
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violetblues said: Harlepolis said: Then why the claim that he made an impact on black music when he gets a lil' or no mention from the black artists that came after him?
I agree though, he took the genre to mainstream. lol, did anyone have to? It goes unsaid. Its more about artists striving to achieve commercial success by crossing beyond race to garner a wider audience. Anyhow, its cute to only look at whats immediately in front of you to decide what was in reality a wide ranging chain of events. [Edited 12/28/09 19:15pm] Again...huh? | |
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murph said: violetblues said: lol, did anyone have to? It goes unsaid. Its more about artists striving to achieve commercial success by crossing beyond race to garner a wider audience. Anyhow, its cute to only look at whats immediately in front of you to decide what was in reality a wide ranging chain of events. [Edited 12/28/09 19:15pm] Again...huh?  | |
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2elijah said: Harlepolis said: MJ didn't invent the Moonwalk, and I for one don't feed into his hype even though I love him. Nice try  Exactly, it was Jeffrey Daniel from Shalamar that taught MJ how to do the Moonwalk, but when MJ did it on the Motown 25th year anniversary show, people were amazed when they saw him do it, and from then fans associated the "Moonwalk" dance with MJ. [Edited 12/29/09 6:20am] Actually, neither of them did. It was much earlier than that,,,,,it was Bill Bailey(Pearl Bailey's brother) who developed whats now famous as the "moonwalk". | |
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Harlepolis said: 2elijah said: Exactly, it was Jeffrey Daniel from Shalamar that taught MJ how to do the Moonwalk, but when MJ did it on the Motown 25th year anniversary show, people were amazed when they saw him do it, and from then fans associated the "Moonwalk" dance with MJ. [Edited 12/29/09 6:20am] Actually, neither of them did. It was much earlier than that,,,,,it was Bill Bailey(Pearl Bailey's brother) who developed whats now famous as the "moonwalk". You know Harlepolis, I kind of figured Jeff got that move from some earlier performers. What I meant was that Jeff taught MJ how to do it, not that Jeff invvented the actual move. But thanks for enlightening me on that. There were so many early artists from the 30s and 40s whose talents have been overlooked. When I look back during the early swing/boogie-woogie, big band eras, so many dance moves were taken from those eras from later performers. | |
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2elijah said: hollywooddove said: As far as I can tell, the moon walk was actually a walk against high wind that mimes would use when they would pop open an umbrella and pull themselves back as though the wind were dragging them. Been used a long long time. I also understand Michael was fascinated with mime, and you can see the influence of it greatly in his dance. He did expose the world to doing these steps to music, which on the day that he did that, wasn't it the AMA? anyway he was very brave. That could have went over great, as it did, or extremely comic, and could have destroyed him. Jeffrey Daniel, from Shalamar taught MJ the moonwalk. http://www.jeffreydaniel.com/ Here's a clip of Jeffrey Daniel early in his career doing the Moonwalk. He also has snippets of MJ in there: [Edited 12/29/09 6:32am] Jeffrey Daniel was influenced by mime greatly then, see the invisible wall routine also. We are all so full of  here | |
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2elijah said: Harlepolis said: Actually, neither of them did. It was much earlier than that,,,,,it was Bill Bailey(Pearl Bailey's brother) who developed whats now famous as the "moonwalk". You know Harlepolis, I kind of figured Jeff got that move from some earlier performers. What I meant was that Jeff taught MJ how to do it, not that Jeff invvented the actual move. But thanks for enlightening me on that. There were so many early artists from the 30s and 40s whose talents have been overlooked. When I look back during the early swing/boogie-woogie, big band eras, so many dance moves were taken from those eras from later performers. wow, what an incredible entertainer. We are all so full of here | |
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hollywooddove said: 2elijah said: Jeffrey Daniel, from Shalamar taught MJ the moonwalk. http://www.jeffreydaniel.com/ Here's a clip of Jeffrey Daniel early in his career doing the Moonwalk. He also has snippets of MJ in there: [Edited 12/29/09 6:32am] Jeffrey Daniel was influenced by mime greatly then, see the invisible wall routine also. It seems mime was just one part of his dancing style, and now knowing that Bill Bailey was obviously one of his influences, as well as other entertainers of the early days. I think we should get the thread back on track though. [Edited 12/29/09 8:27am] | |
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vainandy said: Michael Jackson did. He was not Black. | |
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Graycap23 said: vainandy said: Michael Jackson did. He was not Black.  Andy is a four letter word. | |
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Graycap23 said: vainandy said: Michael Jackson did. He was not Black. You are sooooo wrrroonnnnggg.... [Edited 12/29/09 11:46am] | |
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Harlepolis said: 2elijah said: Exactly, it was Jeffrey Daniel from Shalamar that taught MJ how to do the Moonwalk, but when MJ did it on the Motown 25th year anniversary show, people were amazed when they saw him do it, and from then fans associated the "Moonwalk" dance with MJ. [Edited 12/29/09 6:20am] Actually, neither of them did. It was much earlier than that,,,,,it was Bill Bailey(Pearl Bailey's brother) who developed whats now famous as the "moonwalk". I think the moonwalk is older than that, I think 
Michael was taught the moonwalk, sidewalk, and other popping moves by Jeffery, Michael "Boogaloo Shrimp" Chambers, Geron Candidate, and Cooley Jackson He worked with those guys for over 10 years on his tours, Bad, Smooth Criminal, and Ghosts "We may deify or demonize them but not ignore them. And we call them genius, because they are the people who change the world." |
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Graycap23 said: vainandy said: Michael Jackson did. He was not Black.  "We may deify or demonize them but not ignore them. And we call them genius, because they are the people who change the world." |
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murph said: violetblues said: A little myopic, especially when referencing artists know mainly only to the fam base. Mock artists produced by either a studio or a label or some other talented writer or producer is nothing new to black or white music, To me It's more about fans having the obsessive tendencies that will have them look up in the sky and see their Idol in clouds, toast, tortillas and ink blots. Prince's scope of influence in music is good, but again, if anybody wants to propose any argument about someone's negative impact on modern black music, stick to more plausible candidates such as MJ, Stevie or Elvis. [Edited 12/28/09 18:57pm] Huh? "We may deify or demonize them but not ignore them. And we call them genius, because they are the people who change the world." |
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Harlepolis said: violetblues said: A little myopic, especially when referencing artists know mainly only to the fam base. Mock artists produced by either a studio or a label or some other talented writer or producer is nothing new to black or white music, To me It's more about fans having the obsessive tendencies that will have them look up in the sky and see their Idol in clouds, toast, tortillas and ink blots. Prince's scope of influence in music is good, but again, if anybody wants to propose any argument about someone's impact on modern black music, stick to more plausible candidates such as MJ, Stevie or Elvis. [Edited 12/28/09 18:50pm] I've yet to read about a black artist citing Elvis as an influence. "We may deify or demonize them but not ignore them. And we call them genius, because they are the people who change the world." |
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sounds like Prince is being used as an excuse for crap music...what should he have done? toned it down? compromised his artistic integrity? the writer of that was probably high, and jealous. "Its flier to B hungry than fat" | |
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lotusboy said: sounds like Prince is being used as an excuse for crap music...what should he have done? toned it down? compromised his artistic integrity? the writer of that was probably high, and jealous.
The writer is a HUGE Prince fan. Did you read the post? "We may deify or demonize them but not ignore them. And we call them genius, because they are the people who change the world." |
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2elijah said: hollywooddove said: Jeffrey Daniel was influenced by mime greatly then, see the invisible wall routine also. It seems mime was just one part of his dancing style, and now knowing that Bill Bailey was obviously one of his influences, as well as other entertainers of the early days. I think we should get the thread back on track though.
[Edited 12/29/09 8:27am] you are right we should.... so..... lastly.... http://www.etonline.com/n.../09/54303/ hook up to that link. We are all so full of here | |
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hollywooddove said: 2elijah said: It seems mime was just one part of his dancing style, and now knowing that Bill Bailey was obviously one of his influences, as well as other entertainers of the early days. I think we should get the thread back on track though.
[Edited 12/29/09 8:27am] you are right we should.... so..... lastly.... http://www.etonline.com/n.../09/54303/ hook up to that link. Good try, and you're trying real hard because you don't want Jeffrey Daniel to get credit for something MJ asked him to teach him. It was Jeffrey Daniel that gave MJ lessons and taught him how to "Moonwalk". You can spread all that butter on the popcorn, but fact is, Jeffrey taught MJ how to moonwalk. Jeffrey stated that on a show called "unsung" on either the TVOne Channel or Centric not too long ago, and MJ did not give him credit for it.[Edited 12/30/09 6:22am] | |
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2elijah said: hollywooddove said: you are right we should.... so..... lastly.... http://www.etonline.com/n.../09/54303/ hook up to that link. Good try, and you're trying real hard because you don't want Jeffrey Daniel to get credit for something MJ asked him to teach him. It was Jeffrey Daniel that gave MJ lessons and taught him how to "Moonwalk". You can spread all that butter on the popcorn, but fact is, Jeffrey taught MJ how to moonwalk. Jeffrey stated that on a show called "unsung" on either the TVOne Channel or Centric not too long ago, and MJ did not give him credit for it.
[Edited 12/30/09 6:22am] Oh I'm not trying to do anything. I find this subject a little fascinting. Truly I could care less if it was Jeffrey Daniel, maybe it was, I don't know or really care, I just thought that the link was interesting. What holds more credit on an objective level though? Michael stating his influence for himself, or Jeffrey Daniel attempting to take credit? Once again... I AM not stating which is true... Jeffrey could be a staright shooter and maybe Michael felt it helped his image if he got it from somewhere else besides another dancer in the pop scene. Once again though, Jeffrey Daniel's dance is greatly influenced by mime. So maybe he was influenced by Marcel Marceu, and MJ simply wanted to skip credit on the middle man. We are all so full of here | |
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hollywooddove said: 2elijah said: Good try, and you're trying real hard because you don't want Jeffrey Daniel to get credit for something MJ asked him to teach him. It was Jeffrey Daniel that gave MJ lessons and taught him how to "Moonwalk". You can spread all that butter on the popcorn, but fact is, Jeffrey taught MJ how to moonwalk. Jeffrey stated that on a show called "unsung" on either the TVOne Channel or Centric not too long ago, and MJ did not give him credit for it.
[Edited 12/30/09 6:22am] Oh I'm not trying to do anything. I find this subject a little fascinting. Truly I could care less if it was Jeffrey Daniel, maybe it was, I don't know or really care, I just thought that the link was interesting. What holds more credit on an objective level though? Michael stating his influence for himself, or Jeffrey Daniel attempting to take credit? Once again... I AM not stating which is true... Jeffrey could be a staright shooter and maybe Michael felt it helped his image if he got it from somewhere else besides another dancer in the pop scene. Once again though, Jeffrey Daniel's dance is greatly influenced by mime. So maybe he was influenced by Marcel Marceu, and MJ simply wanted to skip credit on the middle man. Jeffrey "personally" taught MJ how to moonwalk. MJ hired him as his choreographer after seeing him dance on Soul Train. End of story. Have a good day....and back on topic. [Edited 12/30/09 8:28am] | |
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2elijah said: hollywooddove said: Oh I'm not trying to do anything. I find this subject a little fascinting. Truly I could care less if it was Jeffrey Daniel, maybe it was, I don't know or really care, I just thought that the link was interesting. What holds more credit on an objective level though? Michael stating his influence for himself, or Jeffrey Daniel attempting to take credit? Once again... I AM not stating which is true... Jeffrey could be a staright shooter and maybe Michael felt it helped his image if he got it from somewhere else besides another dancer in the pop scene. Once again though, Jeffrey Daniel's dance is greatly influenced by mime. So maybe he was influenced by Marcel Marceu, and MJ simply wanted to skip credit on the middle man. Jeffrey "personally" taught MJ how to moonwalk. End of story. Have a good day....and back on topic. [Edited 12/30/09 6:58am] We are all so full of here | |
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hollywooddove said: 2elijah said: Jeffrey "personally" taught MJ how to moonwalk. End of story. Have a good day....and back on topic. [Edited 12/30/09 6:58am]  | |
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lotusboy said: sounds like Prince is being used as an excuse for crap music...what should he have done? toned it down? compromised his artistic integrity? the writer of that was probably high, and jealous.
Prince fans don't read...lol | |
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Harlepolis said: SUPRMAN said: Like MJ and the Moonwalk . . . . MJ didn't invent the Moonwalk, and I for one don't feed into his hype even though I love him. Nice try I am saying that he didn't although since his death you would think the first time the world ever saw it was on Motown 25. I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think. |
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hollywooddove said: Harlepolis said: MJ didn't invent the Moonwalk, and I for one don't feed into his hype even though I love him. Nice try As far as I can tell, the moon walk was actually a walk against high wind that mimes would use when they would pop open an umbrella and pull themselves back as though the wind were dragging them. Been used a long long time. I also understand Michael was fascinated with mime, and you can see the influence of it greatly in his dance. He did expose the world to doing these steps to music, which on the day that he did that, wasn't it the AMA? anyway he was very brave. That could have went over great, as it did, or extremely comic, and could have destroyed him. He did not. My brothers and I were doing long before we saw MJ do it. I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think. |
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2elijah said: hollywooddove said: Oh I'm not trying to do anything. I find this subject a little fascinting. Truly I could care less if it was Jeffrey Daniel, maybe it was, I don't know or really care, I just thought that the link was interesting. What holds more credit on an objective level though? Michael stating his influence for himself, or Jeffrey Daniel attempting to take credit? Once again... I AM not stating which is true... Jeffrey could be a staright shooter and maybe Michael felt it helped his image if he got it from somewhere else besides another dancer in the pop scene. Once again though, Jeffrey Daniel's dance is greatly influenced by mime. So maybe he was influenced by Marcel Marceu, and MJ simply wanted to skip credit on the middle man. Jeffrey "personally" taught MJ how to moonwalk. MJ hired him as his choreographer after seeing him dance on Soul Train. End of story. Have a good day....and back on topic. [Edited 12/30/09 8:28am] I have even seen Jeffrey's name listed in the ending credits of one of my Michael Jackson DVDs. Andy is a four letter word. | |
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vainandy said: I have even seen Jeffrey's name listed in the ending credits of one of my Michael Jackson DVDs. Even MJ's sister confirmed that MJ sought out Jeffrey for some dancing lessons. So the fact is, Jeffrey taught MJ the Moonwalk, and it was during the Motown 25 Anniversary, that MJ made it his own. | |
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SUPRMAN said: hollywooddove said: As far as I can tell, the moon walk was actually a walk against high wind that mimes would use when they would pop open an umbrella and pull themselves back as though the wind were dragging them. Been used a long long time. I also understand Michael was fascinated with mime, and you can see the influence of it greatly in his dance. He did expose the world to doing these steps to music, which on the day that he did that, wasn't it the AMA? anyway he was very brave. That could have went over great, as it did, or extremely comic, and could have destroyed him. He did not. My brothers and I were doing long before we saw MJ do it. You have brothers? (Just messin' with ya) | |
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