"Agree/Disagree" what the hell am I thinking?

Anyway I found this post to be very intersting, it was shared to me by a fellow org pal(who posts in Okayplayer, where he found it).

Disregard it if its a repost.

First off most people on here know I think Prince is one of the greatest artists of the past 50 years. I can't think of anyone that has made as many songs that I have enjoyed as much as I have his. If I listed my top 10 concerts ever, the 6 Prince shows I've seen would all be there. That said ..... Prince was NOT good for black music people.

I think a lot of what made him great also made him destructive. His creativity and confidence turned him into a sort of musical demigod. He didn't need a band to create and record with because in his mind nobody could play his music as well as he could. He didn't use background singers for the most part for the same reason. Prince was the show, standing above all others and he wanted to make sure you didn't forget that. Now of course Prince wasn't the first artist to feel this way. But he was the first that had the technology to isolate himself creatively the way he did. When you have the talent and ideas Prince did at the time, this isn't a bad thing in and of itself. The problem is, it inspired less creative and original people to follow in his footsteps. The end result was a parade of mediocre singer/songwriter/producer wannabes that would have been much better severed (creatively) being part of a larger collective. Just because you can make music by yourself doesn't mean you should. Of course existing bands also took note of what Prince was doing. They started cutting the "fat" and in doing so, knocked over the first domino in death of the black band.

As I said, Prince wasn't the first artist to have an ego. But he was the first to go to the lengths he did to keep from being shown up. One need to look no further than his first two side projects ... The Time and Vanity 6.... for prove of his obsessive narcissism.

Flyte Tyme by everyone's account was the baddest band in Minneapolis. So what did Prince do when he signed them? Fired their lead singer (Alexander O'Neal) and replaced them with his drummer friend Morris Day. The fact Morris couldn't sing meant nothing to Prince. As a matter of fact in his mind this was a good thing. This meant one less threat to Prince. But even this wasn't enough for him. Prince went into the studio and recorded almost all (if not all, there are various opinions on this) the music and background vocals for the first Time album. Think about this for a minute. You sign a band and then record an album under their name with your friend who you made lead singer. But that didn't matter to P. He was selling an alternate image of himself with the group. He wasn't producing in a way that would bring out the creativity in his artist, he was acting as a puppet master with his hand guiding every sight and sound associate with them. They weren't artist, they were props. Never was this truer than with his next project Vanity 6. Never before in black music history had there been a group that had this much style over substance. None of the girls could sing ...not even in a serviceable way really ... play any instruments or even dance. With Vanity Prince created the video chick before the video era even really kicked off. Once again, Prince was the star and his project was his window dressing. With Vanity 6 Prince proved you could market and sell records even though the "artist" had little to no talent. It would be foolish to think the industry didn't take note of this. This knowledge along with the emergence of the music video formed a powerful one two punch that marginalized vocal talent.

The interesting thing in all of this is how Prince slowly reverted back to more "traditional" ways as his creative tank started to run dry. Now days he loves to talk about "real music" and sing the praises of the funk and jazz stars of the past. He basks in the spotlight as the symbol of a by gone era. The last of his kind. And once again Prince is the show. And once again, Prince got exactly what he wanted.

Well?
[Edited 12/25/09 16:10pm]

mods please delete this one
[Edited 12/25/09 16:16pm]

Drivel

It's just according to how you look at it. I think the fact that he could do everything himself may have raised some eyebrows of record executives to cut costs and stop hiring bands. However, even though Prince could do everything himself, he was doing it with instruments. Yes, he used drum machines but he mixed them on top of real drums which gave the songs strength and power instead of just sounding like a mindless, heartless, and souless machine pounding. He played real bass and real guitar. He put the synths on top which made it sound even better and more futuristic than a lot of the other acts of his time.

There is a big difference in what he was doing back then compared to what today's so-called artists are doing because he wasn't just punching buttons on a computer, he was a full fledged musician that just happened to be able to do everything by himself. The only thing I see him guilty of is maybe raising some eyebrows of some label executives that they may be able to save money by cutting out all the other people that would form a musical group. But it was Shitney Houston that was the blame for raising their eyebrows to cut out all the rhythm.

The reason "black" was even used is because it is black music today that no longer has bands and instruments. Rock bands still exist.

vainandy said:

Huh? Britney? Madonna anyone? Its not "black" music, its just contemporary pop & R&B music that tends not to use real bands and instruments in their albums.

There are white rock bands still out there but there are no black bands out there unless you dig so far underground that your shovel scrapes the upper level of Hell.

Harlepolis said:

False. The whole disco era was about style. Of course there were talented artists throughout the disco era, but there was also plenty there that had zero substance. What Prince did with Vanity 6 wasn't groundbreaking in that sense at least.
[Edited 12/25/09 17:09pm]

vainandy said:

True.

Aside from The Roots(who're not even mainstream for that matter),,,,I think you need to hit the blogosphere in order to search for black bands.
[Edited 12/25/09 17:03pm]

vainandy said:

Black rock bands or bands in general? If you're talking only about the former, but the latter, thats not true.

The disco era was about rhythmic music made for dancing but that's another thread altogether and completely off topic pertaining this thread. And I never said that Vanity 6 was anything groundbreaking. No, I don't think Prince ruined black music and never said he did. It was shit hop that ruined black music.

But as far as white rock bands go, there are plenty of them. No, I couldn't give you names because I don't listen to them. But I remember when the FUSE channel was on our cable system just two years ago, there were countless rock bands on that channel. They may have sounded horrible like a bunch of screaming where you couldn't even make out the lyrics, but nevertheless they still were a band.

And even when some of the older rock bands make a new album these days such as Def Leppard and AC/DC, they still make their album with a band. When an older black band like The Barkays goes into the studio to make their new album these days, they make it with the same shit hop drum machines and computers that the shit hoppers use.

There is no way Prince destroyed Black music. All he did as a Black artist during the early part of his career, was played music not limiting him to "R&B" or allowing the music industry or anyone else to put limitations on his creativity or what "types" or "style" of music he wanted to introduce to fans or the kind of music they (record labels) "expected" from him, because he is a black artist.

The author of the article is basically saying Prince created acts that had no real talent, but was based on their looks/physical appearance. I'd like to know how that stopped any black artist from presenting their music. We're talking about the mid to late 70s when there was still black artists with bands, through the early 80s. If you want to know what killed black artists with bands, then e blame it on rap and hip-hop artists with no real singing voice aka no real talent. Anyone can "talk" through a song, no auditions necessary.
[Edited 12/26/09 10:04am]

vainandy said:

Merry Xmas Andy, your posts always bring a smile to my face.

vainandy said:

Its not off topic at all. Its a genre of music pretty populated by African Americans that precedes Vanity 6. Its completely relevant to the style or substance argument, because Prince wasn't fashioning Vanity 6 to be some traditional "band" in the old school R&B or funk genre per se but sexy faces to accompany sexy pop/dance tunes.

vainandy said:

Oh you better believe there are black artists with bands out there, but the music industry is not interested in them, because many of them play "real music" and have talent. If they're not singing about killing their mama, holding a gun, been in jail or gang-banging, record executives have no interest; the same is not required of a white rock bands though, yet they get signed. Go figure. You gotta love the music industry.
[Edited 12/25/09 17:20pm]

Sorry but I fail to see the connection between Prince being passionate for music & even went as far to create another band for the sole purpose of releasing more music (which this guy obviously musn't know) & the destruction of "black music", whatever that's supposed to mean...

Thank you. Merry Christmas to you to.

it was hip hop that ended talented black musicians from being hired and desired.because hip hop is a form of music where playing instruments is not required.nor is talent,.just the ability to speak rhythmic poetry{rap}so u c prince didnt ruin it.the industry forced rap down our throats,whatever is played on radio is what sells.therefore becoming the new sound of the era.they ,{record exc},.no we buy what we hear,giving us no chance to purchase what we want.because its not played

I need a definition of "Black Music", because being Black and making music doesn't qualify the result as Black Music.

Admitting Prince belongs to Black Music (to me classifying him into one category is too restrictive), I can't see how he managed to single-handedly destroy BM...

But what does style or substance have to do with this topic? Those girls may have been pretty faces with little or no talent, with the exception of Brenda who could actually sing, but Prince recorded kickass music behind their voices. That's the difference. Yeah, artists today may be all about style but they don't have the music behind them that Vanity 6 did. And as far as substance goes, you don't need great lyrics when you're dealing with a band because the focus is more on the music rather than the lyrics. For instance, Roger and Zapp...."Shake shake it baby...shake shake it....shake shake it mama...shake it for me". Real complex lyrics right? But it doesn't matter because the funk behind those lyrics is what kept the asses shaking, not the lyrics. That's the difference between a band and these current acts....music.

vainandy said:

Style vs substance is what the author was discussing Prince takes overboard with Vanity 6. But anyway I see your point.
[Edited 12/25/09 17:38pm]

And they aren't going to sign the black bands either. If some do happen to slip through the cracks on a small label, then the monopolized radio stations will take up the labels' slack but not giving them any airplay.

When they saw that they could save a ton of money by signing acts with turntables and computers rather than full bands, they weren't about to continue signing bands. But on the other hand, they still sign the white rock bands. My brother who grew up on hard rock and heavy metal, still listens to current rock music. And there is an entire radio station in my area that plays current rock and that's all I hear when I'm in his car riding with him. Try finding a radio station that plays current black bands though. You ain't gonna find one.

What it boils down to, is if a white audience still wants steak, they will still serve it to them. It might not be Grade A steak like it used to be but it's still meat. But the record industry is perfectly happy throwing black audiences scraps and the bad thing about it is, they have raised a new generation that has only had scraps their entire life and is happy with it so they aren't going to complain.

Mtv and Hip Hop are responsible for the decline in good music. Mtv killed a lot of artist careers because image became more important than music. And Hip Hop definitely destroyed R&B. With sampling, cheap production, and very little talent it's amazing how this industry grew the past 20 years.

Harlepolis said:

This the most hilarious lines in the entire article. The only black artist I can think of currently doing music comparable in a creative sense right now to Prince's contemporary sound is Meshell N'degeocello, and she gets even less airplay right now than he does. He must be making that assessment based upon the conventional choices P has made for singles his past couple of albums. The fact of the matter is, non-conventional music doesn't get plaid on corporate "black" radio these days, whether it be Lenny, Meshell, Prince or whomever else. Thats not an assessment of these artists but the industry.

Harlepolis said:

Can you please provide the link to this obtuse opinion in it's entirity? I'd like to read the original post for myself before rendering an opinion.

Isabell said:

Well, okay, in my opinion, black music was basically black artists that played certain types of music, i.e, r&b, during specific eras, and based on what most blacks were listening to from black artists and buying. Most black artists were usually associated in a particular category of music, which was the type of music record companies promoted black artists to the African-American market during the 70s. Not too many record companies were promoting black artists that played "rock" during the 70s, although blacks have been playing rock music for years. I'm sure most Prince fans know that Prince plays many styles of music, but he also has played many R&B songs, like "Adore", "Insatiable", "How Come You Don't Call Me Anymore"; "Satisfied (with a gospel feel), just to name a few. There's no question he has some classic R&B songs, so the author of the thread, apparently was focusing on Prince's r&b history of music, I don't think he was intentionally limiting him in one category, when the author obviously knows Prince played various styles of music.
[Edited 12/26/09 12:50pm]

Be sure to read the feedback as well

http://board.okayplayer.c...ype=search

Enjoy.

Harlepolis said:

Hey, wait a minute, you're leaving your own thread?

2elijah said:

I never leave,,,,I just

Anyway, I posted the link because it was requested