Graycap23 said:

Stymie said:

Would you be okay if that were your sister, mother, etc., he punched like that?

Not a single persom I know is that ignorant.

Let's say they were. Answer the question. We're only talking hypotheticals anyway.

This isn't self-defense? I think Tremoline and I have explained why legally he's facing criminal charges. Good grief.

I just watched that video for the first time.

Good lord! I wish I had been there. I'd have beat that bus driver senseless. What a POS he is.

No man hits a woman. EVER.

TD3 said:

Unfortunately in the US children are taught playground rules and/or street justice are acceptable means to resolve conflicts. Hence the irrational explanations or justification for why this woman got what she deserved. We appear to be puzzled why we have high levels of violence... random acts of violence in the US.

I read somewhere the bus drive choose not to press charges against this woman. I would like to believe he regretted how he handle the situation. I'm sure he realizes now how much he may lose: The possibility of jail time, being fired, loosing health care benefits, state pension, severance pay and his CDL, in this economy. Transportation workers make a nice buck and he made have lost it all because he allowed himself to be pulled into some dumb mess. Instead of "acting like a man" he should've tried to act like an adult.

Just US children? I hardly think other countrie around the world dont have similar or worse situations

I mean there are places all over the world where women are 3rd class citizens, where homosexuals are stoned hung or jailed, where there are all kinds of different caste systems and what not, so I hardly think this is just a US issue

1 of the issues that this case showes that there are still struggling gender issues because everyone is supposed to be equal whereas in many other countries the lines are defined and what that girl did would never have happened

To be honest with you, its the changes in our society that is why there is so much confusion and violence the playground rules were here since the founding of the country(and it came from other countries) probably even moreso 30+ yrs later. 30 yrs later a parent could spank their child, Parents cant or arent supposed to do that anymore.

So I think there are many other factors

We are also a society that says its pretty much ok to say whatever however you want to another person and they arent supposed to react. And we wonder why so many people continue to think its ok to assault people with their mouths...violent virbal language usually proceeds physical violence

Graycap23 said:

Stymie said:

Would you be okay if that were your sister, mother, etc., he punched like that?

Not a single persom I know is that ignorant.

Not directed at Stymie, but that kind of question has been asked and heard continually and I noticed that those kinds of questions are never really asked about brothers fathers etc

if it really isnt about gender then gender specifics dont need to be inserted,

Now I do understand the nuances of violence toward women, but every case isnt about violence toward women sometimes its just person against person

clearly in this case in my opinion AGE 1st then Gender are the 2 things probably being wrestled with on both ends

because she also used his gender to get him riled up

Interesting and unique commentary beginning at the 4:00 mark, it focuses on aspects that I don't believe have been discussed yet such as the safety of the passengers while the bus driver continues to drive throughout much of the confrontation.

Disregard his frequent references to her being a teenager, she is 25 years old.

Pokeno4Money said:

Interesting and unique commentary beginning at the 4:00 mark, it focuses on aspects that I don't believe have been discussed yet such as the safety of the passengers while the bus driver continues to drive throughout much of the confrontation.

Disregard his frequent references to her being a teenager, she is 25 years old.

That guy is an idiot.

I was gonna post this last week when I heard about it on Warren Ballentine's show but I forgot.

I don't see any clean hands on either side of this one. The problem the driver is going to have is that by the time he hit her she was moving away from him and therefore was no longer an immediate threat. Moreover, these workers do have a protocol to follow when dealing with disruptive riders. First, you call 911, then you stop the bus and radio in a report to the supervisor for further instructions. At NO time do you address the rider other than to warn them.

Of course if you are in immanent danger and need to defend yourself you still have to call 911 and radio the garage afterward. The way he handled it will make his employer liable and he'll lose his job for that if for no other reason...even the union probably won't defend his mishandling of the incident. They'll negotiate his severance and that's about it.

With all that said, I have a hard time feeling sorry for that woman or anyone who speaks and behaves like that, especially toward an elder. It was totally uncalled for and I especially have a problem with anyone who either spits on puts their feet on somebody. Something about those particular actions set a lot of people off moreso than just a push or shove would. If my daughter or sister did something like that than yes, I'd tell them they got what they were looking for.

Another angle that hasn't been discussed is that I've noticed an escalation in this kind of behavior toward people in service oriented jobs. Whether it's bus drivers, cashiers, valets, waiters, etc, etc, more people seem to think that taking out their agression on "lowly" service people is no big deal.

At the end of the day this is what happens in an encounter between two clueless people with no impulse control. Plenty of blame to go around. To answer the OP question, a man can punch a female if he's protecting himself or another person like a child, for example from grave immanent danger from her but that's not what happened here.

Stymie said:

Graycap23 said:

Not a single persom I know is that ignorant.

Let's say they were. Answer the question. We're only talking hypotheticals anyway.

Ok............they would deserve the same treatment.

RodeoSchro said:

Pokeno4Money said:

Interesting and unique commentary beginning at the 4:00 mark, it focuses on aspects that I don't believe have been discussed yet such as the safety of the passengers while the bus driver continues to drive throughout much of the confrontation.

Disregard his frequent references to her being a teenager, she is 25 years old.

That guy is an idiot.

he really is

I have mixed feelings on what the bus driver did. On one hand the fool( lady) instigated the whole incident but on the other hand the driver should have been more professional. If she did in fact spit on (and grab) the driver he should have called the police. I've been on buses where there's been a disturbance and usually(when verbal) the driver will tell the person(s)to cut it out or get off the bus. If its physical, then the driver usually calls the police. Although i can sympathise with the driver, i can't justify what he did.

Personally i think that spitting on someone is one of the most disrespectful things that you can do and if someone did it to me my first instinct would be to beat the **** out of them. I'm not saying i would resort to violence I'm just saying i would want to.

As far as if its ever OK to punch a woman.

Violence in general is a touchy subject for me and domestic violence and violence against women even more so. I grew up in a household where there was domestic violence(man on woman) so that shaped my views on the subject.

Years ago i was in this relationship where me and my companion weren't getting along. Verbally we were constantly at each others throat. One day we were arguing and she started punching me in the face. Keep in mind that i had never put my hands on her or any other woman before her and prior to that incident she had never hit me. Anyway i was so tired of going thru problems with this woman and her hitting me was kinda the last straw so i lost my cool and pushed her hard, real hard. She flew into this walk-in closet that was filled with a bunch of stuff. I remember the loud noise of her trying to get up and come after me again so i just walked out the door and went and got drunk. After thinking about it for a while, i felt bad. The things that bothered me were one, i lost control and two, i went against my morals. I respect women and I'm against violence so loosing control like that sacred me. I couldn't help but think, "am i like my father ?", "will i turn out to be a woman beater?" Anyways that was about 19 years ago and since then Ive never touched a woman in a violent way and i don't think i ever can.......unless. If my life or a loved ones life was in mortal danger and the only way i could save them was to physically hurt the other person, man or woman, i would have to. Let me reiterate though, i hate violence. But just like some men, some women are violent psychopaths that lack empathy so what do you do when you're faced with a threat from someone like that ?

Quick story and I'm done..

I knew someone(beda) that was murdered by his girlfriend. They were arguing and she got so enraged that she grabbed a knife and stabbed him directly in the heart. Beda was a big guy but he wasn't violent or aggressive but the woman that killed him was. If Beda had did to his murderer what that bus driver did to that woman then maybe Beda would still be alive today.

[Edited 10/25/12 2:35am]

Of course it's not ok for anyone to punch anyone (male or female, in any given combination).

That said, there are folk who by their trash-ass gross actions put themselves in situations where I can barely muster up sufficient sympathy for them.You don't get to just instigate shit in this world without consequence, plain and simple. Eventually someone's gonna shut your mouth for you if go go around actin a fool.

Dude was wrong to punch her as he did (cause damn, that was a PUNCH)

But do I feel bad for her? Umm...no, not if she started it and then proceeded to instigate. Sorry.

[Edited 10/24/12 21:15pm]

Stymie said:

If he could not put her off the bus, he should have kept his fucking mouth shut and called the police and have them remove her.

In a perfect world.

Mama, I've known you online for years and met you in person. I don't believe for a minute that if someone got in your face enough you wouldn't shut it the fuck downnnnn.

RodeoSchro said:I just watched that video for the first time.

Good lord! I wish I had been there. I'd have beat that bus driver senseless. What a POS he is.

No man hits a woman. EVER.

Even if she pulls a weapon on you? That's the only time I'd do it.

Timmy84 said:

If a woman has a mean punch and she instigated the attack, it's only fair to hit her back with a mean punch. REGARDLESS OF GENDER. Hell some women do it all the time. But men can't hit back in retaliation if a woman clobbers him or wails on his head like a banshee? I don't get that logic at all.

Especially if she looks like Baby D from 'Next Friday', Rosie O'Donnell or Queen Latifah

The woman got what she deserved.

And no, it's not really okay to punch anyone unless one is acting in self-defence.

Stymie said:

TD3 said:

Unfortunately in the US children are taught playground rules and/or street justice are acceptable means to resolve conflicts. Hence the irrational explanations or justification for why this woman got what she deserved. We appear to be puzzled why we have high levels of violence... random acts of violence in the US.

I read somewhere the bus drive choose not to press charges against this woman. I would like to believe he regretted how he handle the situation. I'm sure he realizes now how much he may lose: The possibility of jail time, being fired, loosing health care benefits, state pension, severance pay and his CDL, in this economy. Transportation workers make a nice buck and he made have lost it all because he allowed himself to be pulled into some dumb mess. Instead of "acting like a man" he should've tried to act like an adult.

All this!!!!

Yup, TD3's been absolutely on point right the way through this thread. Way more patient than I would've been, too.

uPtoWnNY said:

RodeoSchro said:I just watched that video for the first time.

Good lord! I wish I had been there. I'd have beat that bus driver senseless. What a POS he is.

No man hits a woman. EVER.

Even if she pulls a weapon on you? That's the only time I'd do it.

Sure, if your life is being threatened you have to protect yourself. I agree with that.

ForgottenPassword said:

The woman got what she deserved.

And no, it's not really okay to punch anyone unless one is acting in self-defence.

There's no way we can justify that man hitting that woman, short of her presenting a life-threatening situation to him.

Men do not hit women. EVER.

My own thoughts on some points raised in the discussion:

- Self-defence isn't merely a synonym for "he/she started it!", like kids in a schoolyard cry out when the teacher turns up; you actually have to be defending yourself against an immanent threat. Further, your response has to be proportionate to the threat you face, and directed specifically at negating that threat. If you go bounding in to defend your sense of masculine honour, or to land a blow against society's 'trashy' undercurrent, you're not really acting in self-defence - and those assessing the event post-hoc should fess up to that, even though they might (justifiably) not like to see mouthy young people acting up in public.

- Perhaps I'm terminally fuzzy on such matters, but I still think a bit of sympathy is warranted, even for some young person who fucks up stupidly in public, because fucking up stupidly in public is essentially what young people do. I think any of us can probably recall, from our youth, a moment (or several moments!) of fucking up stupidly in public - perhaps on a lesser scale, but we've all gotten into stupid altercations, for example - and, if we're honest about it, we're probably quite grateful that the way we learnt that that wasn't such a smart idea was not by having someone smack us violently in the mouth and send us crashing to the floor before a whooping crowd, recording the moment for broadcast to an audience of millions ("LOOOOOOOOL!!!", etc). I don't condone spitting at people - it's one of the lowest, most disrespectful, humiliating things you can do to someone - but the girl got back more than she put in in terms of injury and public humiliation - and I don't think we should whoop at that like the idiots in the crowd. Teach young people to make better choices, sure, but not through losing their dignity and risking serious injury in public.

- Lastly, I have to laugh out loud at the 'equality' angle. Ahhh, there you go, ladies: still no equal pay, but decades of courageous struggle have won you the 'right' to get punched in the mouth by a man!

RodeoSchro said:

ForgottenPassword said:

The woman got what she deserved.

And no, it's not really okay to punch anyone unless one is acting in self-defence.

There's no way we can justify that man hitting that woman, short of her presenting a life-threatening situation to him.

Men do not hit women. EVER.

Disagree.

I don't advocate raising one's hand across the gender line, but, surely theres some duality in this degree. 'Thats a girl' the onlookers cried, similarly, could it not be said 'thats a man and a grown one at that'.

The woman abused and assaulted him and he decided to defend himself with force.

Sorry folks, I know it's a mortal sin to hit a woman and I probably wouldn't respond the way the driver did, but I do find that clip funny.

[Edited 10/25/12 5:58am]

johnart said:

Stymie said:

If he could not put her off the bus, he should have kept his fucking mouth shut and called the police and have them remove her.

In a perfect world.

Mama, I've known you online for years and met you in person. I don't believe for a minute that if someone got in your face enough you wouldn't shut it the fuck downnnnn.

I have never ever had a fight in my life. I don't believe violence solves anything and makes matters worse. In this particular instance, I am right.

RodeoSchro said:

ForgottenPassword said:

The woman got what she deserved.

And no, it's not really okay to punch anyone unless one is acting in self-defence.

There's no way we can justify that man hitting that woman, short of her presenting a life-threatening situation to him.

Men do not hit women. EVER.

I think you mean "Men should not hit women. Ever" Because this clip shows men do

But I totally disagree with this, You're coming from the traditional stance that women are weaker and men brutally stronger, women are little pretty fragile things full of emotion and men are emotionless slabs are hardness

So if a woman is punching you in the face or attacking you, because you are a man you should just take it until you can get away or someone get her away?

RodeoSchro said:

ForgottenPassword said:

The woman got what she deserved.

And no, it's not really okay to punch anyone unless one is acting in self-defence.

There's no way we can justify that man hitting that woman, short of her presenting a life-threatening situation to him.

Men do not hit women. EVER.

What reality are u living in?

OldFriends4Sale said:

You're coming from the traditional stance that women are weaker and men brutally stronger, women are little pretty fragile things full of emotion and men are emotionless slabs are hardness

In this instance, the woman was weaker and the man stronger - and I would wager that that easily-discernible fact was the precondition of the course of action he decided to take. If it were a man of comparable size and weight he'd got into an altercation with, he might not have been so keen to send fists flying. He knew he could 'take her' because he was physically stronger, so he threw a full force punch to 'put her back in her place' (i.e. to remind her that, as a weak female, she'd lose in a physical exchange with a superior, male opponent, so she should act accordingly). Let's not pretend that, in so doing, he was striking a blow for gender equality.

deebee said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

You're coming from the traditional stance that women are weaker and men brutally stronger, women are little pretty fragile things full of emotion and men are emotionless slabs are hardness

In this instance, the woman was weaker and the man stronger - and I would wager that that easily-discernible fact was the precondition of the course of action he decided to take. If it were a man of comparable size and weight he'd got into an altercation with, he might not have been so keen to send fists flying. He knew he could 'take her' because he was physically stronger, so he threw a full force punch to 'put her back in her place' (i.e. to remind her that, as a weak female, she'd lose in a physical exchange with a superior, male opponent, so she should act accordingly). Let's not pretend that, in so doing, he was striking a blow for gender equality.

deebee said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

You're coming from the traditional stance that women are weaker and men brutally stronger, women are little pretty fragile things full of emotion and men are emotionless slabs are hardness

In this instance, the woman was weaker and the man stronger - and I would wager that that easily-discernible fact was the precondition of the course of action he decided to take. If it were a man of comparable size and weight he'd got into an altercation with, he might not have been so keen to send fists flying. He knew he could 'take her' because he was physically stronger, so he threw a full force punch to 'put her back in her place' (i.e. to remind her that, as a weak female, she'd lose in a physical exchange with a superior, male opponent, so she should act accordingly). Let's not pretend that, in so doing, he was striking a blow for gender equality.

My comment was not in connection to this particular situation but to his statement, that Men should never hit women, which I don't agree with

This particular videoed situation is different, every situation is going to be different, but if you read through this thread, you will read different stories that say the opposite of women being weaker

This situation also bring on age, which can make a difference in strength and stamina, that girl couldn't have been that weak because she totally got up swinging after that hit, I probably would have been out for the count

Has nothing to do with gender equality

But both took advantage of gender difference,

deebee said:

My own thoughts on some points raised in the discussion:

- Self-defence isn't merely a synonym for "he/she started it!", like kids in a schoolyard cry out when the teacher turns up; you actually have to be defending yourself against an immanent threat. Further, your response has to be proportionate to the threat you face, and directed specifically at negating that threat. If you go bounding in to defend your sense of masculine honour, or to land a blow against society's 'trashy' undercurrent, you're not really acting in self-defence - and those assessing the event post-hoc should fess up to that, even though they might (justifiably) not like to see mouthy young people acting up in public.

- Perhaps I'm terminally fuzzy on such matters, but I still think a bit of sympathy is warranted, even for some young person who fucks up stupidly in public, because fucking up stupidly in public is essentially what young people do. I think any of us can probably recall, from our youth, a moment (or several moments!) of fucking up stupidly in public - perhaps on a lesser scale, but we've all gotten into stupid altercations, for example - and, if we're honest about it, we're probably quite grateful that the way we learnt that that wasn't such a smart idea was not by having someone smack us violently in the mouth and send us crashing to the floor before a whooping crowd, recording the moment for broadcast to an audience of millions ("LOOOOOOOOL!!!", etc). I don't condone spitting at people - it's one of the lowest, most disrespectful, humiliating things you can do to someone - but the girl got back more than she put in in terms of injury and public humiliation - and I don't think we should whoop at that like the idiots in the crowd. Teach young people to make better choices, sure, but not through losing their dignity and risking serious injury in public.

- Lastly, I have to laugh out loud at the 'equality' angle. Ahhh, there you go, ladies: still no equal pay, but decades of courageous struggle have won you the 'right' to get punched in the mouth by a man!

I do feel sympathy for her, but in a hypocritical way, I feel sympathy because she is female.

this is the problem with situations like this that happen in the public, in bars, in homes, at the playground, in sports.

No one assesses hmmm they are smaller than me, they are shorter etc etc (well in some cases we do) but it's usually 1 side that has to in order for the situation not to escalate, the other side is either not thinking about it or is taking advantage of it. I knew a young lady(30something) who it didn't matter: she would get in her mothers face, her fathers, mine, her nieces, I mean it was such a dare. And yes I wanted to slap her across the room, I mean like step into your space (she's college educated, never used curse words but she could be so abrassive) She did the same to her (ex)boyfriend till he did land a punch and left a knot on her forehead (guess what? she still didn't learn her leason not to come after people like that, and she would say it "I don't want to go their with her but I know I can go there ..."

My opinion in some cases some people just need an unexpected response

People who teach their children not to fight, are teaching their kids to be victims. Its one thing if the whole world was the same, but while some are peacemakers others are bullies. Kids get victimized at school on the playground and outside of school. Kids should be taught to protect themselves. Male and female

I remember when I was a senior in high school, in the hall, a fight almost breaks -out a girl is going after a guy no holds barred, and he was pulling away backing away, people were all around and she hit him a few times, I saw him pop her 2 times before he was able to get away. He had the right to defend himself, and they werent much different in physical size.

Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who didn’t. — Ben Franklin

[Edited 10/25/12 8:12am]

OldFriends4Sale said:

People who teach their children not to fight, are teaching their kids to be victims. Its one thing if the whole world was the same, but while some are peacemakers others are bullies. Kids get victimized at school on the playground and outside of school. Kids should be taught to protect themselves. Male and female

Exactly!