hendrikus said:

HotGritz said:

Ok I didn't want to post on here but I have some questions.

1) Why do people, particularly white people, feel the need to dress up as people of color when either entertaining a group of other white people or on Halloween, a holiday that in itself has some questionable origins.

2) Why is it that if Dave, being the nice guy he presumably is, post a pic for which he was previously banned? If you've been warned once not to post the pic then why would you do it again?

3) How would white people feel if black people dressed up in white face and preceded to mock **cough** portray them in some negative but supposedly truthful light? For example, what if a black female donned white face and preceded to act slutty and ignorant and weak all because some people think that's how white women are?

Sorry but IMHO, there is nothing amusing about black face, red face, zulu costumes or negative racial stereotypes. We can't stop people from doing that but for chrissakes, keep that shit to yourselves.

I will try to answer (but you won't be satisfied ).

1) I do not know.

2) I do not know Dave. I am a new member, and do not know his history.

3) I refer to my earlier post. I could interpret it as insulting. What matters, though, is whether other people find it insulting. To know this, you must have knowledge of the history of blackface, how people interpret these images etc. If you ask people in holland whether the Sinterklaas fest mocks black people they will vehemently deny this. They will only understand that people might feel insulted by communicating with people who feel offended. Different cultural backgrounds strongly influence our interpretation of images. This thread shows that.

it's understandable that different cultures have different traditions, but there have been many many threads already talking about racial issues, and blackface was among them.

if I posted something that offended another, I have edited it, or deleted it, and apologized for not wanting to offend another. David did nothing of the sort.

One does not get banned or suspended for one offense. In addition, my understanding is the mods discuss actions of orgers and do not take serious actions without discussing it amongst themselves, first.

David's response to another thread was another racial stereotype. Perhaps he's one of those people who do not have a filter, but the majority of people post their responses to threads thoughtfully. "not having a filter" does not give free license to saying and doing what you want. we still have to abide by respecting society.

For the record, we had blackface as a form of mockery in the UK, too (google 'The Black & White Minstrel Show', which ran on the BBC for 20 years in spite of many complaints - there are even some video clips out there), so Brits can only plead ignorance on this topic to the same extent Americans can. I don't know the full circumstances of the ban in this case, and so I can't say whether I necessarily agree or disagree with it; just wanted to set the record straight on that one point.

HotGritz said:

2) Why is it that if Dave, being the nice guy he presumably is, post a pic for which he was previously banned? If you've been warned once not to post the pic then why would you do it again?

Aha-!

So then he posted this pic once before and was warned about it???

If that's the case, then I see why he was banned.

HotGritz said:

hendrikus said:

3) I refer to my earlier post. I could interpret it as insulting. What matters, though, is whether other people find it insulting. To know this, you must have knowledge of the history of blackface, how people interpret these images etc. If you ask people in holland whether the Sinterklaas fest mocks black people they will vehemently deny this. They will only understand that people might feel insulted by communicating with people who feel offended. Different cultural backgrounds strongly influence our interpretation of images. This thread shows that.

But your third comment makes a lot of sence. Cultural understanding is a lifelong lesson that cannot be fully taught because we either don't communicate, we miscommunicate, or lack historical knowledge within our own communities.

I think I just impressed myself.

Finally, the Great Commandment moment I was praying for

Ottensen said:

HotGritz said:

But your third comment makes a lot of sence. Cultural understanding is a lifelong lesson that cannot be fully taught because we either don't communicate, we miscommunicate, or lack historical knowledge within our own communities.

I think I just impressed myself.

Finally, the Great Commandment moment I was praying for

Absolute joke of a decision to ban him for that. Since when is dressing up as a Zulu racist? What about those who dress up as Indians? Funny how that isn't deemed as racist.

Recently, students from the University of Ohio launched a campaign against costumes that stereotype cultures

Oh, goody. Race war #340593489573457389457.

Just another day on the org.

PurpleJedi said:

HotGritz said:

2) Why is it that if Dave, being the nice guy he presumably is, post a pic for which he was previously banned? If you've been warned once not to post the pic then why would you do it again?

Aha-!

So then he posted this pic once before and was warned about it???

If that's the case, then I see why he was banned.

:disbeleif:

deebee said:

For the record, we had blackface as a form of mockery in the UK, too (google 'The Black & White Minstrel Show', which ran on the BBC for 20 years in spite of many complaints - there are even some video clips out there), so Brits can only plead ignorance on this topic to the same extent Americans can. I don't know the full circumstances of the ban in this case, and so I can't say whether I necessarily agree or disagree with it; just wanted to set the record straight on that one point.

Toss the theories of Dave's naivety. He knew better.

BlackAdder7 said:

Ottensen said:

Finally, the Great Commandment moment I was praying for

at the both of you!

paintedlady said:

deebee said:

For the record, we had blackface as a form of mockery in the UK, too (google 'The Black & White Minstrel Show', which ran on the BBC for 20 years in spite of many complaints - there are even some video clips out there), so Brits can only plead ignorance on this topic to the same extent Americans can. I don't know the full circumstances of the ban in this case, and so I can't say whether I necessarily agree or disagree with it; just wanted to set the record straight on that one point.

Toss the theories of Dave's naivety. He knew better.

I've never heard of 'blackface' before.

I haven't been on here very long, but I've seen Dave's posts, and I saw when he posted the picture. I'm sure that he didn't mean to offend anyone with it, he must've not realised that it would cause such a reaction.

I don't understand why people are being agressive to him if he didn't intend it to be percieved in that way. It's like shouting at a child for getting a maths question wrong.

purplemonster04 said:

paintedlady said:

I've never heard of 'blackface' before.

I haven't been on here very long, but I've seen Dave's posts, and I saw when he posted the picture. I'm sure that he didn't mean to offend anyone with it, he must've not realised that it would cause such a reaction.

I don't understand why people are being agressive to him if he didn't intend it to be percieved in that way. It's like shouting at a child for getting a maths question wrong.

AGAIN... His intent doesn't matter.

Genesia said:

Oh, goody. Race war #340593489573457389457.

Just another day on the org.

That's what I was thinking Zzzzzzzzz.

This is why no one from the old days comes here anymore.

I will add a final thought. By the way, as said, I do not know Dave or his history. I don't know the details of his banning, his posting previous posts, etc. and I won't judge on his banning though I hope he will be back.

I go on and on about explaining and communicating because of the following reasons.

The fact that the BBC ran a show for 20 years adopting blackface (despite criticism) does not automatically imply that someone should know better. Rather, it could also be seen as showing that people in the UK have different views/sensitivities on the particular images adopted in the show. After all, despite criticism it was a great success and it run from 1958-1978 (I Googled).

Again: every year millions of people in the Netherlands adopt blackface while celebrating the most popular childrens party we have. This shows that we have diferent views/sensibilities concerning such images. Very occasionaly someone makes a comment, calling it racist. They hardly ever provide an explanation or argument. Mel B came to a television show and called it racist without any argument. Basically, she was laughed off the stage.

You grow sensitivity when you learn about the history of the image, and in particular when individuals explain to you why they find it offensive. I thought of the following example:

I have seen shows by American comedians (roasters like Rickles, Lampanelli, and others) that employ very heavy racial stereotypes: Black people are lazy, unemployed, look like apes...Though I am sure many people find this very offensive, for some reason they do not seem to get a lot of criticism (correct me if I am wrong though). Why does blackface generate so much controversy? I would think it is because of its own very specific history, it's allusions to slavery, etc. that are specific to blackface theater and its history (read links supplied by Ottenson). If someone would communicate and explain this to people, it would grow a lot more understanding.

The responses in this thread seem to point to this misunderstanding. People have (quite rationally) alluded to dressing up as Native americans, cowboys etc, not seeing the difference with Dave's pic. What we apparantly need to know is why blackface is different from such other practices. Ottensons links, painted and Hotgritz's contributions helped me a great deal in understanding this point. But this kind of point needs to be repeated over and over.

[Edited 10/28/11 14:09pm]

paintedlady said:

AGAIN... His intent doesn't matter.

I'm sorry if I repeated what's already been said, I didn't read every post.

I was just trying to say, why would you get angry at someone who didn't know that whatever they did, or said, was offensive? That's not very fair.

I feel silly for posting on this thread anyway, the picture's gone, and no one gives shit about my opinion.

Intent does matter

If the intent isn't there then there is a chance to communicate and explain the problem and to educate

If the intent is there then there is little chance of achieving this

Anyone could have posted such a picture without realising its effect

or have I simply got the wrong end of the stick?

paintedlady said:

purplemonster04 said:

I've never heard of 'blackface' before.

I haven't been on here very long, but I've seen Dave's posts, and I saw when he posted the picture. I'm sure that he didn't mean to offend anyone with it, he must've not realised that it would cause such a reaction.

I don't understand why people are being agressive to him if he didn't intend it to be percieved in that way. It's like shouting at a child for getting a maths question wrong.

AGAIN... His intent doesn't matter.

it most certainly does

it's essential

Steadwood said:

Intent does matter

If the intent isn't there then there is a chance to communicate and explain the problem and to educate

If the intent is there then there is little chance of achieving this

Anyone could have posted such a picture without realising its effect

or have I simply got the wrong end of the stick?

You are from the UK so obviously you just don't get it! Intent isn't even an issue here. IT WAS NOT A "BLACK FACE" in the photo.

This site is really disgusting me right now. It seems as though anyone that is not American that expresses their opinion on this matter is ignored.

The fun that used to be on this site is gone.

The real problems here are never addressed.

[Edited 10/28/11 14:34pm]

HotGritz said:

3) How would white people feel if black people dressed up in white face and preceded to mock **cough** portray them in some negative but supposedly truthful light? For example, what if a black female donned white face and preceded to act slutty and ignorant and weak all because some people think that's how white women are?

If that person is witty and intelligent enough to make me believe that they are doing it for intellectual reasons (border-blurring humour, disarming racist prejudices etc), I can laugh about that.

I know that no person is a typical person. I have lots of things in common with many black people I know, I don't have lots of things in common with many white people I know. I like sarcam, I like black humour, I like irony. When you go to a synagogue in Vienna, the first thing you hear is a joke on jews (by jewish people, of course). It's cool, because it's easy going and you show that you do not care about racism and that it doesn't affect you, because you simply do not believe in it.

If I say something that offends someone I usually apologise to them (depends on how much I like them), but explain why I said it and why I would say it again. Because of the explanation I have given for making pseudo-racist jokes, there is nothing that can be wrong about it, on a logical level.

Shanti0608 said:

Steadwood said:

Intent does matter

If the intent isn't there then there is a chance to communicate and explain the problem and to educate

If the intent is there then there is little chance of achieving this

Anyone could have posted such a picture without realising its effect

or have I simply got the wrong end of the stick?

You are from the UK so obviously you just don't get it! Intent isn't even an issue here. IT WAS NOT A "BLACK FACE" in the photo.

This site is really disgusting me right now. It seems as though anyone that is not American that expresses their opinion on this matter is ignored.

The fun that used to be on this site is gone.

The real problems here are never addressed.

[Edited 10/28/11 14:34pm]

...coming from an American woman. I think you're the first I ever heard or seen talk this wisely and open-mindedly about her own country (especially the U.S., which usually have extremely patriotic inhabitants).

purplemonster04 said:

paintedlady said:

AGAIN... His intent doesn't matter.

I'm sorry if I repeated what's already been said, I didn't read every post.

I was just trying to say, why would you get angry at someone who didn't know that whatever they did, or said, was offensive? That's not very fair.

I feel silly for posting on this thread anyway, the picture's gone, and no one gives shit about my opinion.

If I see something that makes me feel awful... why and who posted it doesn't matter.

It matters how that image bothers me. If and image is offensive to me and causes me pain I don't want to see it. I don't want people to post it. I don't want to go somewhere and see it posted.

I don't want to see that shit period. So please remove it thanks. Its a mixed community, the org. is not a white's only black people deal with it and shut the fuck up community.

So intent doesn't matter. Respect matters. Anything disrespectful should be removed because its mixed company. Period.

I can't come in here posting shit that offends people that are different than me... regardless if I know better or not. My ass would get snipped and warned and even banned.

Dave gets no pass... he is no dummy. He can keep that shit in his livingroom.

Shanti0608 said:

Steadwood said:

Intent does matter

If the intent isn't there then there is a chance to communicate and explain the problem and to educate

If the intent is there then there is little chance of achieving this

Anyone could have posted such a picture without realising its effect

or have I simply got the wrong end of the stick?

You are from the UK so obviously you just don't get it! Intent isn't even an issue here. IT WAS NOT A "BLACK FACE" in the photo.

This site is really disgusting me right now. It seems as though anyone that is not American that expresses their opinion on this matter is ignored.

The fun that used to be on this site is gone.

The real problems here are never addressed.

[Edited 10/28/11 14:34pm]

Oh I'm used to not getting it and being ignored...

...Just ask Mrs Steadwood

Hope you guys are doing just fine there

Dave1992 said:

Shanti0608 said:

You are from the UK so obviously you just don't get it! Intent isn't even an issue here. IT WAS NOT A "BLACK FACE" in the photo.

This site is really disgusting me right now. It seems as though anyone that is not American that expresses their opinion on this matter is ignored.

The fun that used to be on this site is gone.

The real problems here are never addressed.

[Edited 10/28/11 14:34pm]

...coming from an American woman. I think you're the first I ever heard or seen talk this wisely and open-mindedly about her own country (especially the U.S., which usually have extremely patriotic inhabitants).

Watch out. don't bring pro anti america shit into this

Dave1992 said:

Shanti0608 said:

You are from the UK so obviously you just don't get it! Intent isn't even an issue here. IT WAS NOT A "BLACK FACE" in the photo.

This site is really disgusting me right now. It seems as though anyone that is not American that expresses their opinion on this matter is ignored.

The fun that used to be on this site is gone.

The real problems here are never addressed.

[Edited 10/28/11 14:34pm]

...coming from an American woman. I think you're the first I ever heard or seen talk this wisely and open-mindedly about her own country (especially the U.S., which usually have extremely patriotic inhabitants).

Yes but as I have been "schooled" on this site before, usually in P&R, I am a white American so I have not right to discuss anything on race threads. I have orgnotes to prove what I have been told by fellow American orgers even before I moved to the UK.

Fact is, the photo was not a "black face" character. Even if it offended someone, it should have been addressed by mod, snipped, a warning and move on.

Sad thing is, that does not happen here on the org anymore.

I know that other ppl have their own experiences here on the org, we have all been offended by something that was said. That is what the report button is for I suppose.

Just seems as though a lot of ppl that used to be here have decided to leave because of the bannings and finger pointing. I guess pretty soon it will just be a site for American, except this one.

Account deleted!

Steadwood said:

Shanti0608 said:

You are from the UK so obviously you just don't get it! Intent isn't even an issue here. IT WAS NOT A "BLACK FACE" in the photo.

This site is really disgusting me right now. It seems as though anyone that is not American that expresses their opinion on this matter is ignored.

The fun that used to be on this site is gone.

The real problems here are never addressed.

[Edited 10/28/11 14:34pm]

Oh I'm used to not getting it and being ignored...

...Just ask Mrs Steadwood

Hope you guys are doing just fine there

I am glad that you spoke up. We are fine and dandy sir, thanks for asking. Love to you both!

hendrikus said:

Dave1992 said:

...coming from an American woman. I think you're the first I ever heard or seen talk this wisely and open-mindedly about her own country (especially the U.S., which usually have extremely patriotic inhabitants).

Watch out. don't bring pro anti america shit into this

I don't! This is rather pro anti militantly-pro american shit.

If you like certain things about a certain country, it is understandable that you will defend that country (although it's illogical to me). But often in my life have I encountered a certain narrow-minded, in many cases very uneducated ignorance of U.S. citizens towards other people and the rest of the world. All I can do is remind them that the U.S. consists of 50 states, most of which are very different to the others and that there are many, many completely different people living there. There is no "one U.S. of A.".

Apart from that, even though many states are very beautiful, there are some very interesting cities and people living there, there are many, many, many things I would not be proud of as a U.S. citizen, thinking about my own country and having witnessed other cultures and/or political systems (especially Europe. I'm sorry for having to sound so blatant; but most European countries are simply better to live in for the average person. And the greater good should always be preffered, in my opinion).

I'm starting to babble and to ramble.

For a thread with a title as stupid as this, it sure turned out to be one of the most interesting and colourful (no pun intended) threads on the org right now.

Oh, and by the way, Rugby is better than American Football...

Dave1992 said:

hendrikus said:

Watch out. don't bring pro anti america shit into this

I don't! This is rather pro anti militantly-pro american shit.

If you like certain things about a certain country, it is understandable that you will defend that country (although it's illogical to me). But often in my life have I encountered a certain narrow-minded, in many cases very uneducated ignorance of U.S. citizens towards other people and the rest of the world. All I can do is remind them that the U.S. consists of 50 states, most of which are very different to the others and that there are many, many completely different people living there. There is no "one U.S. of A.".

Apart from that, even though many states are very beautiful, there are some very interesting cities and people living there, there are many, many, many things I would not be proud of as a U.S. citizen, thinking about my own country and having witnessed other cultures and/or political systems (especially Europe. I'm sorry for having to sound so blatant; but most European countries are simply better to live in for the average person. And the greater good should always be preffered, in my opinion).

I'm starting to babble and to ramble.

For a thread with a title as stupid as this, it sure turned out to be one of the most interesting and colourful (no pun intended) threads on the org right now.

Oh, and by the way, Rugby is better than American Football...

perhaps you have not been the victim of Racism, Dave. if you were, you'ld know how it feels, and perhaps your views would be different.

if you have been the victim of racism, and you feel the way that you do, good for you.

Just for the record, I thought it was hilarious when Eddie Murphy dressed up as a white man.

Dave1992 said:

hendrikus said:

Watch out. don't bring pro anti america shit into this

Oh, and by the way, Rugby is better than American Football...

Shanti0608 said:

Steadwood said:

Oh I'm used to not getting it and being ignored...

...Just ask Mrs Steadwood

Hope you guys are doing just fine there

I am glad that you spoke up. We are fine and dandy sir, thanks for asking. Love to you both!

That's good to hear

Now please put your account back