Well.... This seems just a little adsurd

I don't consider myself racist in any shape or form and

I come from a town which has been ripped apart by racial unrest

People here have learned to tolerate each others differences...Ok it's not perfect, but the world ain't perfect.

If evry cultures differences were observed virtually nothing would be posted

I think Dave is a pretty decent guy underneath it all

I certainly don't belive there was any racial intent in what he posted

I believe Dave should be unbanned and a list of all cultural differences put in the rules

It would possibly take an hour or two to read them before posting anything, but at least no ones toes would get trampled on.

The response to Daves Post is OTT and this is what can put folk off the org

("what can" edit)

[Edited 10/28/11 5:27am]

ZombieKitten said:

Dave has been banned for posting that photograph of himself as a child. He lives in the UK and doesn't know the history behind blackface. I don't think he posted the photo to inflame or bait.

We might need to put that into org rules - expanding on the racist comments part to include and explain blackface explicitly and specifically to those who live outside of the USA - perhaps some of Ottie's links could go in there - and explain the posting such a pic will earn an instant suspension/ban because of the inflammatory nature and offense it causes.

I learned about the term and the history here on the org.

Dave is nuttier than a can of Planter's Peanuts, but I agree that I don't think he wanted to flame or bait either . His filter is a bit off, but he's not the type to attack for attack's sake.

Ottensen said:

He should not have been banned , that's just utterly ridiculous and stupid

He is not a racist in the least

[Edited 10/28/11 6:24am]

RicoN said:

Surely warning Dave and explaining the cultural significance of what he posted would have been a better way to handle this...?

I'm guessing there was no malice intended in his post?

Yep, I agree 100% with you. I'm pretty sure Dave's intention wasn't to be racist and this is coming from a black man point of view; c'mon guys, please reverse his ban and bring him back.

Dear Ottenson,

thank you very much for your reply. I vaguely knew about blackface but not well enough. I am at work so I can not respond elaborately. But I will look into the links.

Other than that and in general: I think polite and proper communication on these issues (like Ottenson did) is better than banning....

I would like to think that if he was banned, there was more to the story.

Could he have lied about that pic being HIM? (Anyone know for sure?)

Did he get a warning and ignore it?

There's gotta be more to it than that pic alone. The pic could (and did) just get snipped. Why the ban? That's the question.

Number23 said:

[img:$uid]http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/thelastbunnyman/a35dc764.png[/img:$uid] Me and a couple of pals live up to our reputations.

This photo is insensitive to snakes and gunfighters.

for all the threads and outrage involving race, i'm surprised that no one else has voiced sensitivity towards the use of black face.

recently, on another thread, the mention of Ted Danson appearing in blakcface at a tribute to his then girlfriend whoopi goldberg and angering most of the nation for having done so, was made.

there is so much hate and anger between the races, the org should not be a home for it. No one besides Ace fights against the anti semitism on the org.

It just seems to be limiited to skin color, and the same people over and over again bring up how much racism there is in the country.

the fact of the matter is, you would not see a caucasian child dressed up as a "tribal" warrior these days, because of the hurt the image brings.

it doesn't matter to me, that dave wore the costume many years ago.

it was posted on the org, and it hurt some other orgers. I'm sure he had many many other childhood pics he could have chosen.

Jedi mentioned, that there must have been a reason behind the ban, deeper than the pic. Someone else mentioned Dave's lack of a filter. add it all up.

it wasn't just because of that pic.

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the insert nationality or minority or race or religion,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a ".

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

[Edited 10/28/11 8:35am]

[Edited 10/28/11 8:38am]

^

Fucking bollocks to all that and then some

So far everyone has commented that it's ridiculous that he got a ban , apart from you

It speak volumes

It figures you'd agree with banning him since you 2 had beef before

So i'm truly questioning this whole essay of yours , frankly

You know good and well he wasn't being racist and wasn't familiar with how blackface is

perceived in the USA

FYI the world does not revolve around the USA alone

Assuming that everyone would just know how things are perceived there

and setting that as a standard for the whole world is absurd

[Edited 10/28/11 11:40am]

TY Blackadder.

I will speak on this since others have elected to stay away from this ugly ass thread.

I don't know about any ban... but I for one wouldn't want to be part of any community that allows ANY orger to freely post pictures in blackface.

I thank the mods for removing that image... it really shouldn't have a place here.

I am sure Davetherave is a nice guy and all... but the issue isn't about his intent or how nice he is.

Any image that will stir up feelings of hatred or offense should not be posted period by anyone.

I would expect a swift ban myself if I posted a questionalble image that offended an entire group of people.

Why are people here trying to tell others what is offensive to them? Do you own the black community to tell us what we should take offense to?

Do you not see some white folks still clutch their handbags and treat black men as if they are perps because of the negative stereo type caused by such imagry? HELLO! Race is still an issue caused by negative stereo type and that "sambo" shit mentality that images like Davetherave posted caused that to spread and still be an undelible image in many minds that has been passed down from generation to generation to think of blacks as angry warriors who will hurt you.

If Davetherave doesn't give one shit about the feelings of an entire section of a community of the org., then why should someone like me care about his intent? Davetherave is a grown man and intelligent enough man to know that race is still an issue in many parts of the world. He also has traveled so he should really know better.

Caring is a two way street. Everyone knows its a "touchy subject" yet they are mad that anyone would take offense? Why do you think its a touchy subject? Because it STILL affects people like me today.

Stop co-signing bigotry.

Shanti0608 said:

PurpleJedi said:

Yeah...when I first read this, I was expecting pics of Orgers in their Sunday best!

Exactly.

No, only times I ever dressed up was for Halloween. Once I dressed up as an Amish boy and I also dressed up as John Taylor from Duran Duran once.

Since ZK was brave. (pic was taken in my best friends room)

[Takes up too much bandwidth. Just click on link - luv4u]

http://i998.photobucket.c.../001-2.jpg

Sorry to lazy and tired to resize photo.

[Edited 10/26/11 18:46pm]

^^

The guy posted an innocent picture , not knowing people would get offended by it

That's all there is to it

[Edited 10/28/11 9:22am]

paintedlady said:

Why are people here trying to tell others what is offensive to them? Do you own the black community to tell us what we should take offense to?

Noone is trying to tell others what to find offensive. Personally, I just think that we should have moved on in this day and age.

Your argument is understandable, but I'm pretty sure this picture didn't affect what anyone thinks about the "black community".

And that's the only relevant point. If Dave were trying to convince us that all black people are bad, that would be pretty stupid and offensive. But the only fact that matters is that it didn't and that (I hope) we're all intelligent enough not to let a silly picture change our actual opinion (unlike 50+ years ago).

Dewrede said:

^^

The guy posted an innocent picture , not knowing people would get offended by it

That's all there is to it

[Edited 10/28/11 9:22am]

The road to hell is paved with good intention.

No one here should say what others should or shouldn't take offense to. Davetherave is an intelligent and knowing adult man, and he was treated as such.

Otherwise any old "Archie Bunker" can come up in here and say and do ANYTHING all under the guise of "I didn't know any better". Doing so would set a bad precedent. It People are snipped/banned here all the time because of their lack of sensitivity to others, REGARDLESS of intent.

I am done, with this.

^

Deleting the picture and an explanation on why , would have been sufficient

Dewrede said:

^

Deleting the picture and an explanation on why , would have been sufficient

I am not a moderator. I can only guess that the moderator did what they felt needed to be done. The rules state not to make offensive posts. The offense is in the eye of the beholder, so people should er on the safe side of things instead of posting things that may cause controversy.

Some things are funny and other things bomb. The rules are already stated, what's NOT to get?

The reason for the ban is not my business but a moderator will ban someone for repeat offenses. I myself have been banned for less.

so there go's Dave!!!.

He who lives in the most racially tolerant country in the world is banned for showing an image of himself dressed as a Zulu.

Big Fucking Deal!!!!...there was no malice intended, shame on those who saw fit to slur someones innocent fancy dress picture ffs

paintedlady said:

TY Blackadder.

I will speak on this since others have elected to stay away from this ugly ass thread.

I don't know about any ban... but I for one wouldn't want to be part of any community that allows ANY orger to freely post pictures in blackface.

I thank the mods for removing that image... it really shouldn't have a place here.

I am sure Davetherave is a nice guy and all... but the issue isn't about his intent or how nice he is.

Any image that will stir up feelings of hatred or offense should not be posted period by anyone.

I would expect a swift ban myself if I posted a questionalble image that offended an entire group of people.

Why are people here trying to tell others what is offensive to them? Do you own the black community to tell us what we should take offense to?

Do you not see some white folks still clutch their handbags and treat black men as if they are perps because of the negative stereo type caused by such imagry? HELLO! Race is still an issue caused by negative stereo type and that "sambo" shit mentality that images like Davetherave posted caused that to spread and still be an undelible image in many minds that has been passed down from generation to generation to think of blacks as angry warriors who will hurt you.

If Davetherave doesn't give one shit about the feelings of an entire section of a community of the org., then why should someone like me care about his intent? Davetherave is a grown man and intelligent enough man to know that race is still an issue in many parts of the world. He also has traveled so he should really know better.

Caring is a two way street. Everyone knows its a "touchy subject" yet they are mad that anyone would take offense? Why do you think its a touchy subject? Because it STILL affects people like me today.

Stop co-signing bigotry.

I fully understand this argument and agree to a large extent (I also agree people's intent do not matter in these issues). However, I think communicating why these pics are offensive (like you and Ottensen did) is more effective and better then a ban. Here is my opinion:

I fell over the word racism, which I would describe something like this (wikepedia):

"Racism is the belief that inherent different traits in human racial groups justify discrimination".

I do not think blackface in general fits this label, because I do not immediately see the link with discrimination (I will get to dave's pic later). I would describe blackface as you did: as being insulting to entire groups of people. It can be characterized as offensive racial stereotyping. A such, it is fully justified to snip such things.

However, what you identify as offensive racial stereotyping really is influenced by your cultural background and knowledge of other cultural backgrounds. Here I think communication between people and being somewhat sensitive to people's ignorance is key. Let me give an example.

In the Netherlands, almost every year almost everybody (millions of people, including people with Suriname heritage) celebrate Sinterklaas (something like Santa-clause), and he has helpers that are black . These are white kids and they use blackface (the spitting image, red lips and earrings and all). So what are we to think of this:

Are all these people racist? no, not in the stronge sense desrcribed above.

Do they engage in offensive racial stereotyping? Yes. Sinterklaas would strongly offend many (the intent does not matter).

Do they know this? no, they haven't a clue, simply because of their own cultural background.

What should we do if we want this cultural tradition changed: communicate with people and explain why it is offensive.

Now I will get to Dave's pic. In my opinion it was a lot more innocent than other blackface pictures I have seen. I did not even associate it with blackface or as being insulting. Again, this has something to do with my lack of knowledge of the blackface tradition, cultural background etc. I did not make the association

What helps is if people explain (like you and ottenson did). I think this is a lot more productive then simply banning.

So In short: a snip with explanation would have been a lot more helpful than banning...

[Edited 10/28/11 11:24am]

Dewrede said:

^

Deleting the picture and an explanation on why , would have been sufficient

I agree, unless he had a history of quastionable race-related comments, which he doesn't

He's clearly SEXIST, but that never seems to bother anyone

I dressed in "whiteface" as George Lucas last Halloween.

[img:$uid]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v18/ufoclub/lucas.jpg[/img:$uid]

^^^ there is something so weird about that pic, for such an ordinary costume

BTW you really needed a double chin prosthetic!

Dave1992 said:

paintedlady said:

Why are people here trying to tell others what is offensive to them? Do you own the black community to tell us what we should take offense to?

Noone is trying to tell others what to find offensive. Personally, I just think that we should have moved on in this day and age.

Actually, people here are protesting the removal of an image that they consider to be in good fun. They were not offended and others who are offended should give Davetherave more room since he didn't mean any harm. In other words, there should not be any offence because of his naivety.

People haven't moved on. Racism still exists, it is alive and well.

Your argument is understandable, but I'm pretty sure this picture didn't affect what anyone thinks about the "black community".

You may be right looking at this thread.

And that's the only relevant point. If Dave were trying to convince us that all black people are bad, that would be pretty stupid and offensive.

HUH? No, its not about Dave trying to convince anyone of anything... its just bad form and it offended people because of its history and the pain that history has caused. People who are offened just don't want to see that mess.

But the only fact that matters is that it didn't and that (I hope) we're all intelligent enough not to let a silly picture change our actual opinion (unlike 50+ years ago).

You can not state what facts matter or don't matter to anyone here. You don't live their lives or experience what they have gone through. You are not surely telling me what should and shouldn't matter to me (or others here) are you? That sir would be very presumptuous.

This is not about catering to African Americans, this is about showing the same respect to others as you would want for yourselves...

.... even if you are not effected. Give thanks if you are not.

ufoclub said:

I dressed in "whiteface" as George Lucas last Halloween.

[img:$uid]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v18/ufoclub/lucas.jpg[/img:$uid]

love it. you got it down, to the flannel shirt and pot belly.

don't expect any calls from industrial light and sound for work though!

Ok I didn't want to post on here but I have some questions.

1) Why do people, particularly white people, feel the need to dress up as people of color when either entertaining a group of other white people or on Halloween, a holiday that in itself has some questionable origins.

2) Why is it that if Dave, being the nice guy he presumably is, post a pic for which he was previously banned? If you've been warned once not to post the pic then why would you do it again?

3) How would white people feel if black people dressed up in white face and preceded to mock **cough** portray them in some negative but supposedly truthful light? For example, what if a black female donned white face and preceded to act slutty and ignorant and weak all because some people think that's how white women are?

Sorry but IMHO, there is nothing amusing about black face, red face, zulu costumes or negative racial stereotypes. We can't stop people from doing that but for chrissakes, keep that shit to yourselves.

HotGritz said:

Ok I didn't want to post on here but I have some questions.

1) Why do people, particularly white people, feel the need to dress up as people of color when either entertaining a group of other white people or on Halloween, a holiday that in itself has some questionable origins.

2) Why is it that if Dave, being the nice guy he presumably is, post a pic for which he was previously banned? If you've been warned once not to post the pic then why would you do it again?

3) How would white people feel if black people dressed up in white face and preceded to mock **cough** portray them in some negative but supposedly truthful light? For example, what if a black female donned white face and preceded to act slutty and ignorant and weak all because some people think that's how white women are?

Sorry but IMHO, there is nothing amusing about black face, red face, zulu costumes or negative racial stereotypes. We can't stop people from doing that but for chrissakes, keep that shit to yourselves.

I will try to answer (but you won't be satisfied ).

1) I do not know.

2) I do not know Dave. I am a new member, and do not know his history.

3) I refer to my earlier post. I could interpret it as insulting. What matters, though, is whether other people find it insulting. To know this, you must have knowledge of the history of blackface, how people interpret these images etc. If you ask people in holland whether the Sinterklaas fest mocks black people they will vehemently deny this. They will only understand that people might feel insulted by communicating with people who feel offended. Different cultural backgrounds strongly influence our interpretation of images. This thread shows that.

BlackAdder7 said:

ufoclub said:

I dressed in "whiteface" as George Lucas last Halloween.

[img:$uid]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v18/ufoclub/lucas.jpg[/img:$uid]

love it. you got it down, to the flannel shirt and pot belly.

don't expect any calls from industrial light and sound for work though!

I know right? I'll have to make sure this pic gets buried, and then maybe I can apply as an assistant at Skywalker Sound... or ILM... or...

Maybe I should delete this pic!

hendrikus said:

HotGritz said:

Ok I didn't want to post on here but I have some questions.

1) Why do people, particularly white people, feel the need to dress up as people of color when either entertaining a group of other white people or on Halloween, a holiday that in itself has some questionable origins.

2) Why is it that if Dave, being the nice guy he presumably is, post a pic for which he was previously banned? If you've been warned once not to post the pic then why would you do it again?

3) How would white people feel if black people dressed up in white face and preceded to mock **cough** portray them in some negative but supposedly truthful light? For example, what if a black female donned white face and preceded to act slutty and ignorant and weak all because some people think that's how white women are?

Sorry but IMHO, there is nothing amusing about black face, red face, zulu costumes or negative racial stereotypes. We can't stop people from doing that but for chrissakes, keep that shit to yourselves.

I will try to answer (but you won't be satisfied ).

1) I do not know.

2) I do not know Dave. I am a new member, and do not know his history.

3) I refer to my earlier post. I could interpret it as insulting. What matters, though, is whether other people find it insulting. To know this, you must have knowledge of the history of blackface, how people interpret these images etc. If you ask people in holland whether the Sinterklaas fest mocks black people they will vehemently deny this. They will only understand that people might feel insulted by communicating with people who feel offended. Different cultural backgrounds strongly influence our interpretation of images. This thread shows that.

You're right I'm not satisfied.

But your third comment makes a lot of sence. Cultural understanding is a lifelong lesson that cannot be fully taught because we either don't communicate, we miscommunicate, or lack historical knowledge within our own communities.

I think I just impressed myself.