skywalker said:

Here's questions I have:

-

Where are all of the victims?

-

With Bill Cosby, R. Kelly, etc, dozens of victims came forward. If Jackson was the sexual predator that some claim, shouldn't there be dozens (maybe hundreds) of people coming forward with similar allegations? Bill Cosby was as rich/famous/revered as Jackson, yet even he could not supress the flood of people coming forward with shared stories.

fair question. by my count, there are about 5 maybe 6 known accusers. that's still too many. plus, there's a between MJ and Cosby. as famous as he was, Cosby could pursue potential adult victims (many of whom were acquaintances) far more easily than MJ, who was the most famous person on the planet, could (allegedly) pursue children to victimize. plus, MJ's accusers allege abuse over extended periods of time, unlike Cosby's victims, who were mainly targeted once.

Where is the evidence?

-

Again, with Cosby and R. Kelly there has been MORE than just allegations and stories. There has been proof and evidence of these crimes. In his lifetime, Jackson was monitored by the FBI and raided by police. Still, no evidence of these abuses/allegations was ever found.

true. there was an extensive investigation of MJ and apparently no direct smoking gun evidence of abuse. but again, the setup is different. much of the alleged abuse was said to have occurred on Jackson's properties, which he controlled heavily. he's also accused in part 2 of the documentary of having his victims remove evidence.

How credible are these dudes?

-

I know we live in a time where even The President can just make shit up without consequences, but didn't these guys testify, under oath in court, on behalf of Michael Jackson?

again, true. that's the question I raised. but you know what I thought about? Michael Cohen. like these guys, he was disgraced and a proven perjurer. but even Cohen came off as believeable.

but to me, we're only having this debate because, at best, MJ put himself in this position with his habits with kids. because he was so famous, the world gave him a pass, too starstruck to look at the situation objectively.

MotownSubdivision said:

Either way, nobody knows what really happened but there is more proof of Michael's innocence than there is of his alleged crimes. The fact that this documentary came from 2 of the least credible accusers certainly does not help. There are real victims out there and if these 2 are indeed lying about this (and all signs point in that direction) and it is brought to light for the whole world to see, then they should be dragged through the coals for trying to profit off an issue as serious as this much like Michael should have if he really was guilty of the crimes he's accused of.

These bolded statements don't seem to jibe. On one hand you're saying nobody really knows what really happened and on the other hand you're saying there are real victims out there.

Maybe I'm not understanding the context. Are you saying there are "real victims" of MJ out there or "real victims" of child sexual abuse? If it's the latter, I doubt that if these 2 guys are lying they'll make it harder for anyone to believe victims of any given abuser. MJ is an outlier due to his fame and a wealth of inconclusive evidence, and no matter what may come to light his fans will defend him until the last dog dies.

even if as you say the evidence preponderates towards innocence of any crime, there is no doubt that Michael Jackson had unhealthy personal relationships with children, and it hurt him in every way imaginable.

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

namepeace said:

MotownSubdivision said:

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

MotownSubdivision said:

Corey Feldman Defends Michael Jackson After 'Leaving Neverland,' Says Singer 'Never Touched Me Inappropriately'

http://www.msn.com/en-us/...ocid=ientp

Corey Feldman says he doesn't believe the sexual abuse accusations against Michael Jackson in the HBO documentary "Leaving Neverland."

Feldman, who says he was abused as a child and has spoken out about sexual abuse in Hollywood, said in a lengthy statement on Twitter Monday that some of his experiences were "the same" as those reported by Wade Robson and James Safechuck, the accusers profiled in "Neverland." But, Feldman said, Jackson "never touched me inappropriately & never suggested we should be lovers in any way!"

In his tweets, Feldman conceded that he "wasn't there when those boys were," but said he "was there around the same time," and says he is still friends with other people who were befriended by Jackson as children who were also not abused. Feldman said "Leaving Neverland" is "1 sided w no chance of a defense from a dead man," and said he is thankful that "my memories of MJ were mostly fond," aside from a fight he says happened after Michael expressed fears Feldman "would turn on him & make up lies."

Robson and Safechuck say in "Leaving Neverland" that Jackson sexually assaulted them over several years, beginning when they were between the ages of 7 and 10. They describe being exposed to pornography as well as several instances of assault.

The Jackson estate has vehemently opposed the documentary, calling it "the kind of tabloid character assassination Michael Jackson endured in life, and now in death." The estate is suing HBO for $100 million for allegedly violating a non-disparagement clause that was part of an agreement the two sides had which granted HBO the right to air Jackson's Dangerous World Tour live back in 1992.

The singer's estate also issued a statement: "This is yet another lurid production in an outrageous and pathetic attempt to exploit and cash in on Michael Jackson ... Wade Robson and James Safechuck have both testified under oath that Michael never did anything inappropriate toward them. This so called 'documentary' is just another rehash of dated and discredited allegations. It's baffling why any credible filmmaker would involve himself with this project."

Corey Feldman ✔ @Corey_Feldman

#Neverland OK I WATCHED IT ALL I KNOW IS WHAT I EXPERIENCED, & YES EVERY EXPERIENCE WAS THE SAME....RIGHT UP 2 THE SEX PART! THAT IS WHERE IT BECOMES LALA LAND, INSTEAD OF NEVERLAND 4 ME. WE NEVER SPOKE ABOUT SEX OTHER THAN A FEW WARNINGS ABOUT HOW SEX WAS SCARY, & DANGEROUS. MJ

Corey Feldman ✔ @Corey_Feldman

· Mar 4, 2019

Replying to @Corey_Feldman

NEVER ONCE SWORE IN MY PRESENCE, NEVER TOUCHED ME INAPPROPRIATELY, & NEVER EVER SUGGESTED WE SHOULD BE LOVERS IN ANY WAY! I FEEL LIKE IF PPL COULD HEAR OUR CONVOS THEY WOULD HEAR THE INNOCENCE IN THEM. NO HINT OF PERVERSION. I HAV A TAPE, IM THINKIN ABOUT RELEASING, WHICH COULD

@Corey_FeldmanGIV PPL A REAL LOOK @ WHAT A 30 YR OLD MAN/CHILD & A 13 YR OLD BOY WOULD DISCUSS, SO EVERY1 COULD HEAR THE INNOCENCE OF R RELATIONSHIP. AGAIN I WASNT THERE WHEN THOSE BOYS WERE. BUT I WAS THERE AROUND THE SAME TIME AS JIMMY, & I SAW MANY KIDS AROUND (GIRLS INCLUDED) WHO I AM

Corey Feldman ✔ @Corey_Feldman

· Mar 4, 2019

Replying to @Corey_Feldman

HOWEVER I DO TAKE ISSUE WITH THE FACT THAT THIS WHOLE THING IS 1 SIDED W NO CHANCE OF A DEFENSE FROM A DEAD MAN, & NO EVIDENCE OTHER THAN THE WORD OF 2 MEN WHO AS ADULTS DEFENDED HIM IN COURT! BUT AS WE WILL NEVER REALLY KNOW, I ONLY HAV

Corey Feldman ✔ @Corey_Feldman

MY MEMORIES. AND THANK GOD 4 ME, MY MEMORIES OF MJ WERE MOSTLY FOND, ASIDE FROM R 1 & ONLY FIGHT BECAUSE HE INCORRECTLY FEARED I WOULD TURN ON HIM, & MAKE UP LIES. I NEVER DID. I NEVER WOULD! I PRAY THOSE BOYS CAN SLEEP W THAT SAME CLARITY OF CONSCIOUSNESS! LET GOD B THY JUDGE!

Corey Feldman ✔ @Corey_Feldman

· Mar 4, 2019

Replying to @Corey_Feldman

STILL FRIENDS WITH 2 THIS DAY, & NONE OF US WERE EVER APPROACHED BY HIM IN A SEXUAL WAY AT ALL! SO AS MUCH AS THOSE 2 MEN DESERVE 2 HAV THEIR VOICES HEARD, SO DO THE THOUSANDS OF KIDS WHO HUNG AROUND HIM, THAT DONT AGREE! MOST PEDOS R SERIAL OFFENDERS. THEY DONT HAV SELF CONTROL.

Corey Feldman ✔ @Corey_Feldman

SO GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY WHICH HE CERTAINLY HAD W ME & OTHERS, BEING ALONE, W NO PARENTS AROUND, HOW DID HE CONTROL THOSE URGES SO WELL, WHILE SO BLATANTLY SEXUAL W THOSE 2 BOYS? IT DOESNT REALLY FIT THE PROFILE. BUT WHAT MOTIVE BESIDES $ DO THEY HAV? ABANDONMENT IS A STRONG 1!

namepeace said:

skywalker said:

Here's questions I have:

-

Where are all of the victims?

-

With Bill Cosby, R. Kelly, etc, dozens of victims came forward. If Jackson was the sexual predator that some claim, shouldn't there be dozens (maybe hundreds) of people coming forward with similar allegations? Bill Cosby was as rich/famous/revered as Jackson, yet even he could not supress the flood of people coming forward with shared stories.

fair question. by my count, there are about 5 maybe 6 known accusers. that's still too many. plus, there's a between MJ and Cosby. as famous as he was, Cosby could pursue potential adult victims (many of whom were acquaintances) far more easily than MJ, who was the most famous person on the planet, could (allegedly) pursue children to victimize. plus, MJ's accusers allege abuse over extended periods of time, unlike Cosby's victims, who were mainly targeted once.

Where is the evidence?

-

Again, with Cosby and R. Kelly there has been MORE than just allegations and stories. There has been proof and evidence of these crimes. In his lifetime, Jackson was monitored by the FBI and raided by police. Still, no evidence of these abuses/allegations was ever found.

true. there was an extensive investigation of MJ and apparently no direct smoking gun evidence of abuse. but again, the setup is different. much of the alleged abuse was said to have occurred on Jackson's properties, which he controlled heavily. he's also accused in part 2 of the documentary of having his victims remove evidence.

How credible are these dudes?

-

I know we live in a time where even The President can just make shit up without consequences, but didn't these guys testify, under oath in court, on behalf of Michael Jackson?

again, true. that's the question I raised. but you know what I thought about? Michael Cohen. like these guys, he was disgraced and a proven perjurer. but even Cohen came off as believeable.

but to me, we're only having this debate because, at best, MJ put himself in this position with his habits with kids. because he was so famous, the world gave him a pass, too starstruck to look at the situation objectively.

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

MotownSubdivision said:

So you have no argument and are choosing to keep your head up your ass? Be that way then.

And people like me? MJ fans? Yeah, I'm not sorry that I'm not just blindly hating on somebody that you do because it's convenient and using evidence to support my stance. I'll say once again that there's a chance that he is guilty but you continue to live by your own preconceived ignorance. I'm sure you already made up your mind to do that.
[Edited 3/5/19 9:37am]

You not seeing anything is the surest sign that YOU have you head up your ass

MotownSubdivision said:

namepeace said:
I was saying that there are real victims of sex abuse out there and somebody riding that victimhood wave to such a length for a pay day is only hurting those who have actually fallen prey to such abuse. For evidence, just look at the discussions we have about tape in general where many have gone on record and lied about being a victim only to be found out or admit they lied later. It's that sort of thing that makes it harder for the real victims to receive justice they deserve. More recently, look at the whole Jussie Smollett ordeal. Just recently, there was an incident in a nearby town where a white high schooler made and posted a racist video about a another black student who is dating a white girl on social media. The news reported on it and on Facebook a fair number of the comments were asking things like "How do we know this isn't fake?" or "Just another ruse by liberals". THAT sort of thing is what I'm addressing and Robson and Safechuck are helping to solidify an unneeded precedent if they get busted for lying about this whole thing.

I don't think so. As I said before, the context of the MJ saga is such an outlier given his fame, the degree of deference he received, and the credibility issues of these particular accusers. I doubt society will disbelieve victims who come forward even if we disbelieve Robson and Safechuck.



As far as MJ's dealings with kids, it's partly his fault and partly the fault of us as a(n American) society. An adult being close to kids is not unhealthy in and of itself. MJ's relationship with children was abnormal and appeared taboo based on the outlook we have indoctrinated but the only way they were really unhealthy was how his closeness to them resulted in the reason why we're even having this discussion.

You're right. Society's adulation of MJ caused us to give him a pass. As to these accusers, it was their parents (which is the most salient thing about Part 2 of the doc).

There's a difference between personal relationships with children, and unhealthy personal relatonships with children. MJ indisputably had the latter. He laid that bare for the world to see and it nearly sent him to jail.

Would I do what MJ did? No, I wouldn't but someone being weird, appearing weird or displaying weird habits doesn't automatically make them unhealthy, disgusting people.

Artists can be a weird lot. Global fame can enhance that. But there's "climbing-trees-and-owning-monkeys" weird, and then there's sleeping in the same bed with minors unaccompanied for weeks or months at a time. That's at an absolute minimum unhealthy and there is no persuasive relativist argument otherwise.

[Edited 3/5/19 9:50am]

MotownSubdivision said:

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

You not seeing anything is the surest sign that YOU have you head up your ass

When you can compose a post saying more than "No u" then you might be worth my time. Till then, keep polishing your debating skills champ. You're gonna need too.

Give it a rest Shakey, you're as bad as Free2BeMe but in the other direction.

jaawwnn said:

namepeace said:

skywalker said:

Here's questions I have:

-

Where are all of the victims?

-

With Bill Cosby, R. Kelly, etc, dozens of victims came forward. If Jackson was the sexual predator that some claim, shouldn't there be dozens (maybe hundreds) of people coming forward with similar allegations? Bill Cosby was as rich/famous/revered as Jackson, yet even he could not supress the flood of people coming forward with shared stories.

fair question. by my count, there are about 5 maybe 6 known accusers. that's still too many. plus, there's a between MJ and Cosby. as famous as he was, Cosby could pursue potential adult victims (many of whom were acquaintances) far more easily than MJ, who was the most famous person on the planet, could (allegedly) pursue children to victimize. plus, MJ's accusers allege abuse over extended periods of time, unlike Cosby's victims, who were mainly targeted once.

5 or 6 known accusers. Who/where are they? Is 5 or 6 a lot for "the most famous person" on the planet, or no? Again, if you look at sexual predators (a Catholic Priest for example) there are usually dozens of victims/accuser. The Catholic Church is more powerful than Michael Jackson and they couldn't cover that all up. How many accusers did R. Kelly have? I have a hard time believing Jackson could successfully silence a multitude of victims and families over the years.

Where is the evidence?

-

Again, with Cosby and R. Kelly there has been MORE than just allegations and stories. There has been proof and evidence of these crimes. In his lifetime, Jackson was monitored by the FBI and raided by police. Still, no evidence of these abuses/allegations was ever found.

true. there was an extensive investigation of MJ and apparently no direct smoking gun evidence of abuse. but again, the setup is different. much of the alleged abuse was said to have occurred on Jackson's properties, which he controlled heavily. he's also accused in part 2 of the documentary of having his victims remove evidence.

Again, back to the Catholic Priest example. Heavily controlled situations, much more autonomy, and anonymity yet there is enough evidence to convict/prove/support allegations.

-

It seems like (if Jackson did this on the scale alleged/for the number of years alleged) that the most famous man in the world would have to be orchestrating the largest coverup ever. Meaning, there'd have to be a large network of enablers including his employees, staff, and even parents of the alleged victims. That doesn't seem to be the case. Does it?

How credible are these dudes?

-

I know we live in a time where even The President can just make shit up without consequences, but didn't these guys testify, under oath in court, on behalf of Michael Jackson?

again, true. that's the question I raised. but you know what I thought about? Michael Cohen. like these guys, he was disgraced and a proven perjurer. but even Cohen came off as believeable.

but to me, we're only having this debate because, at best, MJ put himself in this position with his habits with kids. because he was so famous, the world gave him a pass, too starstruck to look at the situation objectively.

Cohen came off as believable, but that doesn't negate the fact that his credibility is shot. I don't believe that the world gave MJ a pass at all. From 1993 onwards he HEAVILY investigated and scrutinized. His name was CONSTANTLY tossed around in late night monologues, water coolers, etc. Am I wrong about that?

[Edited 3/5/19 10:25am]

namepeace said:

5 or 6 known accusers. Who/where are they? 5 or 6 a lot for "the most famous person" on the planet, no? Again, if you look at sexual predators (a Catholic Priest for example) there are usually dozens of victims/accuser. The Catholic Church is more powerful than Michael Jackson and they couldn't cover that all up. I have a hard time believing Jackson could successfully silence a multitude of victims and families over the years.

Jordan Chandler (via his father), Gavin Arvizo, Jason Francia, Robson and Safechuck. That I know of.

5 or 6 victims of child abuse is a lot for anybody, as I'm sure any reasonable person would agree.

You forget that MJ's fame also had an isolating effect given his affinity for children. He had tons of kids out to Neverland, but never had supervisory authority over kids the way a lot of abuser priests did at parochial schools. Though like those priests, MJ enjoyed the presumption of a clean image.

Again, back to the Catholic Priest example. Heavily controlled situations, much more autonomy, and anonymity yet there is enough evidence to convict/prove/support allegations.

Jackson didn't run parochial schools filled with dozens or hundreds of kids, didn't hold daily services with kids assisting him. He didn't have the ready access to kids that abuser priests did, so that's not the best comparison in terms of access.

It seems like (if Jackson did this on the scale alleged/f or the number of years alleged) that the most famous man in the world would have to be orchestrating the largest coverup ever. Meaning, there'd have to be a large network of enablers including his employees, staff, and even parents of the alleged victims. That doesn't seem to be the case. Does it?

Your argument is based on the premise that the level of his fame means that he would have abused a ton of victims. That premise is fundamentally flawed, and fails to take into consideration that the opposite could actually be true -- that is, he was so famous that he couldn't invite tons of kids into his bed.

Cohen came off as believable, but that doesn't negate the fact that his credibility is shot. I don't believe that the world gave MJ a pass at all. From 1993 onwards he HEAVILY investigated and scrutinized. His name was CONSTANTLY tossed around in late night monologues, water coolers, etc. Am I wrong about that?

MJ remained a global superstar until the day he died, and he's as profitable as he's ever been today. So yeah, you're wrong that he didn't get a pass.

I include myself in that. As hard as I've been on MJ, I've done my best to separate the art from the artist for decades.

Jordan Chandler (via his father), Gavin Arvizo, Jason Francia, Robson and Safechuck. That I know of.

5 or 6 victims of child abuse is a lot for anybody, as I'm sure any reasonable person would agree.

5 or 6 victims? Yes I agree. 1 is too many. 5 or 6 accusers? That's a different thing. Famous people (innocent or not) are accused of a kinds of things. Fairly or not. You said it yourself, Michael Jackson is the most famous person in the world.

You forget that MJ's fame also had an isolating effect given his affinity for children. He had tons of kids out to Neverland, but never had supervisory authority over kids the way a lot of abuser priests did at parochial schools. Though like those priests, MJ enjoyed the presumption of a clean image.

So, hundreds of parents dropped their kids off to Neverland with ONLY Michael Jackson supervising?This seems suspicious for various reasons. Shall I explain why?

Jackson didn't run parochial schools filled with dozens or hundreds of kids, didn't hold daily services with kids assisting him. He didn't have the ready access to kids that abuser priests did, so that's not the best comparison in terms of access.

I am confused. This seems to contradict what you said above. You said he had tons of kids out to Neverland, and he was the only adult there. Again, this is where it gets murky. Is Jackson supervising these kids? What was the set up at Neverland? There seems to not be a clear answer. I always assumed that they were there alone...which is why it's comparable to a Catholic Priest situation. Only adult surrounded by kids.

Your argument is based on the premise that the level of his fame means that he would have abused a ton of victims. That premise is fundamentally flawed, and fails to take into consideration that the opposite could actually be true -- that is, he was so famous that he couldn't invite tons of kids into his bed.

My argument based on this premise:

-

The narrative is that Neverland was this big funnel for Jackson to lure and groom numerous victims for decades. If this were the case, shouldn't there be A LOT more accusers/victims?

-

I am not saying this because his level of fame, but because of everything Neverland as a lure to exploit kids would have to entail. Again, he would have had to have a network of enablers, handlers, and employees and parents who willingly turned a blind eye. Where are all of these people?

-

Typically, a sexual predator/pedo (as Jackson is being accused of) shows a repeated pattern of abuse that yields many victims, etc. Especially when they have a lot of (private) access to kids/women/etc. That's just not what I am seeing with Michael Jackson. People aren't saying that it was a Roman Polanski situation, a Woody Allen situation, a Kevin Spacey, or a Bryan Singer situation. They are accusing Jackson of (not an isolated incident) but of having been preying on children for years.

-

You saw it with both Cosby and R. Kelly (both sexual predators), you see it with individual Catholic Priests as well. Dozens of victims stepping forward with similar stories. You also saw definite evidence/examples in these cases. With Jackson, there hasn't been anything of substance over the decades. With R. Kelly and Cosby there was quite a bit. In other words:

-

The most famous person that ever lived had an amusement Park/zoo set up to lure in children by the hundreds so he could sexually molest them. He was the subject of numerous investigations, but no proof was ever yielded. Not saying Jackson wasn't super weird/creepy, but this just doesn't make sense when you look at, you know, actual facts.

-

Watch the R. Kelly Lifetime documentary and then compare it to Leaving Neverland.

Surviving R. Kelly is a much more comprehensive, cohesive, well rounded, and proof bearing document than Leaving Neverland. Surviving R. Kelly leaves very little room for suspicion and doubt. Surviving R. Kelly

makes sound arguments that are backed up with support/proof. Leaving Neverland had almost NONE of the actual backup, scope, point/counterpoint to support these claims. Do you get what I am saying? Leaving Neverland is sensationalistic and taudry, but actually offers no support. Just allegations. Meanwhile the R. Kelly documentary covered ALL of the bases.

MJ remained a global superstar until the day he died, and he's as profitable as he's ever been today. So yeah, you're wrong that he didn't get a pass.

Michael Jackson's career was nearly ended in 1993 and again during his trial in the early 2000's? Am I wrong? He was found not guilty in court, but his image was tarnished from 1993 until the day he died. Is this incorrect?

[Edited 3/5/19 12:38pm]

rdhull said:

these pretzels are making me thirsty

No no... you've got it all wrong.

"*These pretzels are making me THIRSTY!"

namepeace said:

skywalker said:

Here's questions I have:

-

Where are all of the victims?

-

With Bill Cosby, R. Kelly, etc, dozens of victims came forward. If Jackson was the sexual predator that some claim, shouldn't there be dozens (maybe hundreds) of people coming forward with similar allegations? Bill Cosby was as rich/famous/revered as Jackson, yet even he could not supress the flood of people coming forward with shared stories.

fair question. by my count, there are about 5 maybe 6 known accusers. that's still too many. plus, there's a between MJ and Cosby. as famous as he was, Cosby could pursue potential adult victims (many of whom were acquaintances) far more easily than MJ, who was the most famous person on the planet, could (allegedly) pursue children to victimize. plus, MJ's accusers allege abuse over extended periods of time, unlike Cosby's victims, who were mainly targeted once.

Where is the evidence?

-

Again, with Cosby and R. Kelly there has been MORE than just allegations and stories. There has been proof and evidence of these crimes. In his lifetime, Jackson was monitored by the FBI and raided by police. Still, no evidence of these abuses/allegations was ever found.

true. there was an extensive investigation of MJ and apparently no direct smoking gun evidence of abuse. but again, the setup is different. much of the alleged abuse was said to have occurred on Jackson's properties, which he controlled heavily. he's also accused in part 2 of the documentary of having his victims remove evidence.

How credible are these dudes?

-

I know we live in a time where even The President can just make shit up without consequences, but didn't these guys testify, under oath in court, on behalf of Michael Jackson?

again, true. that's the question I raised. but you know what I thought about? Michael Cohen. like these guys, he was disgraced and a proven perjurer. but even Cohen came off as believeable.

but to me, we're only having this debate because, at best, MJ put himself in this position with his habits with kids. because he was so famous, the world gave him a pass, too starstruck to look at the situation objectively.

On the issue of credibility and the fact that the two initially denied that they were molested by MJ - MOST vicitms of child sexual abuse deny it when asked and fear that if they tell the dark truth something bad will happen to the abuser, themsleves or their families. And these kids many times love, admire and revile their abusers because they are too young to mentally & emotionally comprehend that they were in fact being abused. These two boys loved Michael and he told them he loved them. He showed them with attention, gifts, money, etc He doted on them, sent 100 faxes a day to one of them - talked on the phone for hours <-- *THAT* is not healthy adult/child interaction.

The ultimate damage of the abuse rears its ugly head when victms are adults the abuse they experienced as children deeply affects the mental and emotoinal health of the individual as they enter adulthood. This is why so many adults have come forward years later to reveal that their priests and ministers and family friends and relatives did this to them. Children are not emotionally equipt to deal with this. But this is not to say that the parents get a pass - anyone who allows their child to spend one or several nights with an adult unsuprevised - be it MJ or the Pope - is beyond remiss.

This (bolded italicized) was posted on The Root FB page thread:

This is what someone posted yesterday and I have to agree...

"I was looking at comments about the MJ documentary. This was a comment about the documentary and can truly say this lady did her homework: The two men in this mockumentary: 🙈 James Safechuck signed a legal statement in 05 stating he was never abused.
Wade Robson spoke to police in 1993 as a boy - adamant that he wasn't abused and MJ would never do such a thing.
Sang his praises for 10 years!
In 05, testified in court at MJ's trial he was never abused - adamantly!
The trial transcript is out there for those who do their research.
Continued to defend him for 5 more years until MJ died - when he then begged to be allowed to MJ's memorial and funeral - which he went to.
He wrote an obituary gushing about how MJ taught him what it meant to be a good person. Carried on defending him.
Was trying to work on an MJ tribute with MJ's nephew Taj Jackson.
Then he wanted to work on a tribute act with Cirque de Sole (sp) and MJ's estate and almost had the job.
He was eventually turned down. Bitter, disgruntled, his career and finances rapidly nose-diving, he then came out with this laughable BS.
He sued the estate, as did Jimmy, (same lawyer respresenting both) for 1.6 BILLION! Both cases were eventually denied.
The estate counter sued for attorneys fees, etc. That's currently ongoing.
Wade and Jimmy have appealed the Judges decision on their original lawsuits - and hence, we have this!
Before Wade filed his civil suit, he failed to gain publishing for a salacious book.
By the way, this is the same Wade who was rumoured to have been the guy that was sleeping with Britney Spears and caused the split between her & Justin Timberlake. Remember when Justin released Cry Me A River about it?
Wade was choreographing for NSYNC at the time and was a friend of JT's.
In the wake of this, Brandi Jackson, MJ's niece, has tweeted that she was in a relationship with Wade for 7 years.
A relationship that her uncle Mike had set up! She said he was a cheat and somebody who would deliberately get close to people in order to further his career.
She said that we would remember this woman as she was a famous singer and there was a lot of controversy about it.
Who did he cheat on her with? Britney Spears!
Taj Jackson tweeted #Cry Me A River Wade! He crapped all over his friend JT and he's doing the same now to MJ. Follow the money!
You can fool some people some of the time. But you can't fool all of the people all of the time!
I do my own research. Not buying what these guys are selling!"

[Edited 3/5/19 15:51pm]

2045RadicalMattZ said:

rdhull said:

these pretzels are making me thirsty

No no... you've got it all wrong.

"*These pretzels are making me THIRSTY!"

Did you say:

"RD..I didnt think you'd show" or did you say "RD..I didnt think, YOU'D show"?

rdhull said:

This (bolded italicized) was posted on The Root FB page thread:

This is what someone posted yesterday and I have to agree...

"I was looking at comments about the MJ documentary. This was a comment about the documentary and can truly say this lady did her homework: The two men in this mockumentary: 🙈 James Safechuck signed a legal statement in 05 stating he was never abused.
Wade Robson spoke to police in 1993 as a boy - adamant that he wasn't abused and MJ would never do such a thing.
Sang his praises for 10 years!
In 05, testified in court at MJ's trial he was never abused - adamantly!
The trial transcript is out there for those who do their research.
Continued to defend him for 5 more years until MJ died - when he then begged to be allowed to MJ's memorial and funeral - which he went to.
He wrote an obituary gushing about how MJ taught him what it meant to be a good person. Carried on defending him.
Was trying to work on an MJ tribute with MJ's nephew Taj Jackson.
Then he wanted to work on a tribute act with Cirque de Sole (sp) and MJ's estate and almost had the job.
He was eventually turned down. Bitter, disgruntled, his career and finances rapidly nose-diving, he then came out with this laughable BS.
He sued the estate, as did Jimmy, (same lawyer respresenting both) for 1.6 BILLION! Both cases were eventually denied.
The estate counter sued for attorneys fees, etc. That's currently ongoing.
Wade and Jimmy have appealed the Judges decision on their original lawsuits - and hence, we have this!
Before Wade filed his civil suit, he failed to gain publishing for a salacious book.
By the way, this is the same Wade who was rumoured to have been the guy that was sleeping with Britney Spears and caused the split between her & Justin Timberlake. Remember when Justin released Cry Me A River about it?
Wade was choreographing for NSYNC at the time and was a friend of JT's.
In the wake of this, Brandi Jackson, MJ's niece, has tweeted that she was in a relationship with Wade for 7 years.
A relationship that her uncle Mike had set up! She said he was a cheat and somebody who would deliberately get close to people in order to further his career.
She said that we would remember this woman as she was a famous singer and there was a lot of controversy about it.
Who did he cheat on her with? Britney Spears!
Taj Jackson tweeted #Cry Me A River Wade! He crapped all over his friend JT and he's doing the same now to MJ. Follow the money!
You can fool some people some of the time. But you can't fool all of the people all of the time!
I do my own research. Not buying what these guys are selling!"

[Edited 3/5/19 15:51pm]

Did Safechuck sign a legal statement in 05? I read that he refused to testify on behalf of Jackson in 05. He signed a legal statement in 1993. Myabe I've got it wrong, but best check for yourself before believing either a) a lady on facebook or b) a guy on prince.org

RichardS said:

rdhull said:

This (bolded italicized) was posted on The Root FB page thread:

This is what someone posted yesterday and I have to agree...

"I was looking at comments about the MJ documentary. This was a comment about the documentary and can truly say this lady did her homework: The two men in this mockumentary: 🙈 James Safechuck signed a legal statement in 05 stating he was never abused.
Wade Robson spoke to police in 1993 as a boy - adamant that he wasn't abused and MJ would never do such a thing.
Sang his praises for 10 years!
In 05, testified in court at MJ's trial he was never abused - adamantly!
The trial transcript is out there for those who do their research.
Continued to defend him for 5 more years until MJ died - when he then begged to be allowed to MJ's memorial and funeral - which he went to.
He wrote an obituary gushing about how MJ taught him what it meant to be a good person. Carried on defending him.
Was trying to work on an MJ tribute with MJ's nephew Taj Jackson.
Then he wanted to work on a tribute act with Cirque de Sole (sp) and MJ's estate and almost had the job.
He was eventually turned down. Bitter, disgruntled, his career and finances rapidly nose-diving, he then came out with this laughable BS.
He sued the estate, as did Jimmy, (same lawyer respresenting both) for 1.6 BILLION! Both cases were eventually denied.
The estate counter sued for attorneys fees, etc. That's currently ongoing.
Wade and Jimmy have appealed the Judges decision on their original lawsuits - and hence, we have this!
Before Wade filed his civil suit, he failed to gain publishing for a salacious book.
By the way, this is the same Wade who was rumoured to have been the guy that was sleeping with Britney Spears and caused the split between her & Justin Timberlake. Remember when Justin released Cry Me A River about it?
Wade was choreographing for NSYNC at the time and was a friend of JT's.
In the wake of this, Brandi Jackson, MJ's niece, has tweeted that she was in a relationship with Wade for 7 years.
A relationship that her uncle Mike had set up! She said he was a cheat and somebody who would deliberately get close to people in order to further his career.
She said that we would remember this woman as she was a famous singer and there was a lot of controversy about it.
Who did he cheat on her with? Britney Spears!
Taj Jackson tweeted #Cry Me A River Wade! He crapped all over his friend JT and he's doing the same now to MJ. Follow the money!
You can fool some people some of the time. But you can't fool all of the people all of the time!
I do my own research. Not buying what these guys are selling!"

[Edited 3/5/19 15:51pm]

Did Safechuck sign a legal statement in 05? I read that he refused to testify on behalf of Jackson in 05. He signed a legal statement in 1993. Myabe I've got it wrong, but best check for yourself before believing either a) a lady on facebook or b) a guy on prince.org

Who said what I believed? None of the words in bold including the beginning sentence about "This is what was said yesterday and I agree..." ..that was part of the og post. It is interesting though.

rdhull said:

RichardS said:

Did Safechuck sign a legal statement in 05? I read that he refused to testify on behalf of Jackson in 05. He signed a legal statement in 1993. Myabe I've got it wrong, but best check for yourself before believing either a) a lady on facebook or b) a guy on prince.org

Who said what I believed? None of the words in bold including the beginning sentence about "This is what was said yesterday and I agree..." ..that was part of the og post. It is interesting though.

Ah - ok, I understand now

[Edited 3/5/19 16:28pm]

DiminutiveRocker said:

namepeace said:

On the issue of credibility and the fact that the two initially denied that they were molested by MJ - MOST vicitms of child sexual abuse deny it when asked and fear that if they tell the dark truth something bad will happen to the abuser, themsleves or their families. And these kids many times love, admire and revile their abusers because they are too young to mentally & emotionally comprehend that they were in fact being abused. These two boys loved Michael and he told them he loved them. He showed them with attention, gifts, money, etc He doted on them, sent 100 faxes a day to one of them - talked on the phone for hours <-- *THAT* is not healthy adult/child interaction.

The ultimate damage of the abuse rears its ugly head when victms are adults the abuse they experienced as children deeply affects the mental and emotoinal health of the individual as they enter adulthood. This is why so many adults have come forward years later to reveal that their priests and ministers and family friends and relatives did this to them. Children are not emotionally equipt to deal with this. But this is not to say that the parents get a pass - anyone who allows their child to spend one or several nights with an adult unsuprevised - be it MJ or the Pope - is beyond remiss.

I certainly am aware that most abuse victims have fear of coming forward (and all the baggage and shame that comes with it)...especially as children.

-

However, these two have been grown men for awhile and (as grown men) had repeatedly defended Michael Jackson ...they testifed on his behalf as adults. After his death, they both were had a falling out with the Jackson estate . Then they claimed Jackson abused/molested them. As I said, their credibility is questionable at best. They are not reliable narrators.

Below is what the german Schleiter Family has to say. Franziska and Anton are sibblings, who got to know Michael through their father, a Sony Music executive, in '95, when he appeared on the german TV Show "Wetten dass...?" and became friends with Michael. They toured with him during the european HIStory tour, often appearing on stage with him during "Heal the world" and at the end of the show and stayed in contact with Michael until his death. In 2006 he visited them and stayed at their house in Hamburg.

An Open Letter

From the Schleiter Family

Hi, we are Franziska, Anton, Marlies and Wolfgang – brother and sister and our parents. We were close friends with Michael Jackson from childhood on. What we are about to say comes out of a place of great love and appreciation. If you would like to quote this text, please do not take it out of context and always link back to this page. We won‘t be giving any interviews to the press. Thank you for understanding. This is all we have to say:

04.03.2019

Enough is Enough.

In 1995 we first met Michael at a German TV Show. That day, something that we could never have imagined in our wildest dreams happened. It was the start of a unique friendship. A friendship so normal yet so unusual and magical. One that would last until the very last day of Michael‘s life and will continue forever in our hearts.

From the beginning we knew that what we were privileged to experience, was a treasure worth protecting. Especially regarding the world we live in, with media that wants to make up stories that sell, rather than seeking the truth and people who want to read shocking headlines rather than knowing the truth. Over the years we were offered over a quarter million of Euros for interviews, but no money in the world could ever materialize a value that would stand above the value of our memories with Michael. This is the reason why we have never spoken a word publicly about our friendship.

Something has changed our mind about speaking up lately. The utter shocking news of a new documentary that would portray Michael once again as a child molester. Even writing this sentence, putting his name and that word together, makes us feel sick to our stomach. Michael never behaved inappropriately towards us and we neither witnessed nor suspected him doing it to someone else ever.

We have been angry with the public treatment of Michael many times in the past, but we chose to stay silent - hoping the truth to run marathons and protecting Michael and his privacy.

And we had good reason to be angry, for example when Anton was falsely portrayed in a German tabloid as having a homosexual affair with Michael. We witnessed first hand how ugly the media can be and how they make up most terrible lies just to have a story. When our father denied to talk to an inquiring journalist on the phone, the story read something like "Father refuses to defend Michael". Unfortunately scandals sell much better than anything else.

Spending a lot of time with Michael, we experienced two-faced people more than once. When Michael was in the room, they acted most charming with seemingly good intentions, but once he turned his cheek they would become rude and you could sense that their intentions were not that good after all. In front of us, they didn‘t care showing their real face. We were only the shy German family in the background, not worth paying attention to. But we were observing and slowly but surely we started to get a glance at the often difficult world Michael was living in. It was a world in which it was so very difficult to trust.

And yet Michael was kind to everybody he would meet and believed in the good so strongly. Some would call it naiv, to us it was just one of his character traits that made us look up to him. Giving everybody a chance, even if you've been fooled by people over and over, really is remarkable. And it makes us even more sad to know, that many took and still take advantage of this.

Being around Michael made us realize that everybody wanted a piece of him. We often wondered why, from all people, he would let us into his circle of trusted friends. Now we understand it was maybe the fact that we didn't want anything from him and simply enjoyed being together. When he offered to pay for our education, our parents denied because it was too much of a gift. It was a no brainer for us then, but looking back on it now, it was probably something that Michael didn't experience often.

Those who wanted a piece of his fame or his money did not care about Michael as a person or about his kind heart and uplifting spirit. It is truly a shame and we almost feel bad for those people in a way, because blinded by money, they probably didn't realize that they just had the honor to meet a person that has a uniqueness about him that the world would only witness every other century. His music, his message, his creative and genius mind was truly one of a kind.

While our friendship with Michael was very normal in a sense that we hung out, chatted on the phone, went to the movies just like friends do, it was also magical in the sense that Michael had a warmth about him that was captivating. You would immediately feel comfortable and safe around him. He was one of the most humble persons we've ever met, always putting the well being of others over his own. There was never a single moment of doubt of his pure heart and intentions, which also led our parents to allow us to travel alone with Michael.

Though we‘re speaking up today, we still want to protect and respect our personal stories. What we can say though, is that each and every time we had to say good bye to Michael, we all cried because we knew how much we would miss him. The times we spent together were the most fun. And while Michael was always up for a good water balloon fight, he was also a great mentor, teaching us about life and sharing his incredible knowledge. We can remember how excited he was to tell us about the Wright brothers when he learnt that we had never heard of them. He gave us books and movies of stories we could learn from and he was eager for us to develop our talents.

We understand that our story can only put a small piece of puzzle together for those who are still in doubt of what to believe about Michael Jackson. To those who still doubt that he was innocent, we can only plea to simply do your own research. And if the fact that Michael had to endure every possible raid of privacy in his trial in 2005 and still was found NOT GUILTY on ALL CHARGES, if this fact is still not enough for you, then maybe you can simply listen to his music.

Meeting many of his fans over the years, we were astound how much they “got him“ as a person, even though they never personally met him. Michael and his fans had a unique friendship of their own. He trusted them and it is no wonder why they continue to trust in his good heart. They simply listened to his music and to his words. If you listen closely you‘d know all of his stories and you‘d know what kind of person he was. You would know that his mission for his time on earth was not only to bring happiness in form of melodies and rhythm but also to change the world to the better.

Boy, how he could inspire us to be our best selves and to show more love and respect to each other! Yet people choose to blow up lies that threaten to overshadow all of the greatness this man has brought.

Enough is enough.

Today we speak up for Michael because he deserves better and because he was the best friend we could have ever imagined.

Anton and Franziska and our parents Marlies and Wolfgang

https://schleiter-family.com/

[Edited 3/5/19 17:19pm]

I tend to believe, after all I've read and such, that MJ did NOT do what those 2 men on the Oprah show say he did.

I think that, as with Mr. Jello Pudding Pods and Mr. Weinstein, there'd be DOZENS of new accusations....but seemingly not a one; only men who were boys with him are DEFENDING him.

But to play Devil's Advocate a few things always gave me cause for a pause:

1. The boy, years ago, identifying his genitals. Was it proven that the boy, without any doubt, knew EXACTLY how his penis looked?

2. The book of ART of naked liitle boys? Strange thing to have unless you like looking at naked little boys?

3. The SM book supposedly with fingerprints of MJ and boys?

4. If he truly just loved children why did the boys all have a certain look and never girls?

I've always thought he was just asexual or just scared of sex.

I'll take any answers?