BlackCat1985 said:

SEANMAN said:

Clearly, when you speak of half of her output being “flops”, you’re speaking of charting placement and sales, and not the “longevity” of the album as you claim. It could be argued that for an artist who was blacklisted (which Janet most certainly was, post SB) to have two albums debut at #2 and another one at #1, with two of them going on to be platinum and/or multi-platinum worldwide, is quite a feat. And, if that is the case, then DJ and 20 YO alone would be excluded from your little “flops” list. And therefore, your math is still off. I mean, you are the person claiming that The Velvet Rope, one of the most critically-heralded pop/R&B albums of 1997, is overrated, right? And speaking of “lasting impact”, not only has All For You inspired the sound and image of many a female pop act that followed it (with one critic saying at the time that Janet “leaves the blonde chicks in the dust” in his review of the album), but Damita Jo (a “POST 9/11” album) seems to be doing just fine in that department as well. The oft-mentioned Britney Spears even patterned her last CD after DJ, down to the title of the record and the themes in the album (she has said so herself). Janet being a “viable pop star” today, and if “the splendor of 1989” (whatever the hell that means) will return is a weak argument built up by people like you who seem to hold some sort of weird grudge. What do you care? You’re not a fan, right? She has surpassed the point in her career where she still has to compete, and that is because she is a POP ICON. The “splendor” never left. And as for your other assessment about Janet fans using her past glories to cling on to, well…no. I can look at the plethora of pop acts today and over the past twenty some-odd years who have mimicked the things that Janet has already done and smile. That’s what I feel good about. And that is what proves her iconic status. And, since you mentioned the R&R HOF (as all anti-Janet trolls hilariously do from time to time ), I personally think that Janet could give two shits about it, just like she could give two shits about the re-certification of her biggest sellers. However, with new, unbiased judges on the committee (QuestLove being one of them), I highly think that the days of Janet being criminally ignored by the committee will soon be over . QuestLove himself has said that he feels she should’ve long ago received a nomination, and that he would throw her name out there just as he did with Hall & Oates this year (and look at where it got them). I thought I’d mentioned this before, but perhaps your memory is just as off as your math, your reasoning and your general discernment for talented icons.

All of THIS!

Janet is probably saying screw the nominations and lifetime achievement awards, she is now is a billionaire.......they can't trump that one...

Scorp said:

BlackCat1985 said:

SEANMAN said: All of THIS!

Janet is probably saying screw the nominations and lifetime achievement awards, she is now is a billionaire.......they can't trump that one...

That's one of the things I love about her. She was never stuck on numbers and fame and all the trappings that her contemporaries (Madonna, Mariah, etc.) are so hung up on. Look at how embarrassing Madonna has been as of late on social media. It's ridiculous. And, with as many awards and industry achievements that Janet has received and set throughout her career, you can tell she values her everyday, normal life over all of it. Screw Mariah, Janet is the REAL "Elusive Chanteuse"!

this was clearly a bait thread from the jump so i dont know why janet fans are in here going back and forth with people who hate her and thinks she has no talent,yet takes the time to write whole essays about her career.in the meantime janet remains unbothered.

SEANMAN said:

Scorp said:

Janet is probably saying screw the nominations and lifetime achievement awards, she is now is a billionaire.......they can't trump that one...

That's one of the things I love about her. She was never stuck on numbers and fame and all the trappings that her contemporaries (Madonna, Mariah, etc.) are so hung up on. Look at how embarrassing Madonna has been as of late on social media. It's ridiculous. And, with as many awards and industry achievements that Janet has received and set throughout her career, you can tell she values her everyday, normal life over all of it. Screw Mariah, Janet is the REAL "Elusive Chanteuse"!

loll..absolutely

when all the dust settles and the smoke clears...Janet will be standing tall at the end

thats' what happens when u are in "CONTROL"....

In the meantime, we'll just hang out and wait for the next album.

lowkey said:

this was clearly a bait thread from the jump so i dont know why janet fans are in here going back and forth with people who hate her and thinks she has no talent,yet takes the time to write whole essays about her career.in the meantime janet remains unbothered.

Definitely a bait thread, but I just love informing the less-informed and rebutting the trolls. And you're right, she...

Scorp said:

SEANMAN said:

That's one of the things I love about her. She was never stuck on numbers and fame and all the trappings that her contemporaries (Madonna, Mariah, etc.) are so hung up on. Look at how embarrassing Madonna has been as of late on social media. It's ridiculous. And, with as many awards and industry achievements that Janet has received and set throughout her career, you can tell she values her everyday, normal life over all of it. Screw Mariah, Janet is the REAL "Elusive Chanteuse"!

loll..absolutely

when all the dust settles and the smoke clears...Janet will be standing tall at the end

thats' what happens when u are in "CONTROL"....

Right

purplethunder3121 said:

In the meantime, we'll just hang out and wait for the next album.

Yes indeed!

SEANMAN said:

lowkey said:

this was clearly a bait thread from the jump so i dont know why janet fans are in here going back and forth with people who hate her and thinks she has no talent,yet takes the time to write whole essays about her career.in the meantime janet remains unbothered.

Definitely a bait thread, but I just love informing the less-informed and rebutting the trolls. And you're right, she...

the only thing U did remind us is how delusional and a pain in the ass U,J-stans, are...no one would change their mind about her based on your fanatic point of view

go2theMax said:

SEANMAN said:

Definitely a bait thread, but I just love informing the less-informed and rebutting the trolls. And you're right, she...

the only thing U did remind us is how delusional and a pain in the ass U,J-stans, are...no one would change their mind about her based on your fanatic point of view

Oh, you again?

SEANMAN said:

midnightmover said:

Jesus, you two are not the sharpest tools in the box, are you? You seriously think I don't know that Janet came out before Britney? Use your heads, guys. Of course Janet came first, but that's not the point. Duh! The point is that both of them are completely dependent on choreographers. They are MANUFACTURED artists in every sense of the word.

Janet had better producers and a mentor and co-writer who did a great job of guiding her career (Rene Elizondo), but had she come along 17 years later and been white instead of black she could've easily had an identical career to Spears. They have the same level of talent. Jennifer Lopez is another one of these soulless puppets merely executing her choreographer's instructions. You guys can't see this because, well, as we've established, you're not the sharpest tools in the box.

As for Janet's dancing being more varied than Michael's that is simply a reflection of the fact that he had a style and she didn't. He synthesized elements from street dance, Bob Fosse, etc. and made something distinctly his own. That's what ARTISTS do. Janet was not an artist though. Her style was whatever the choreographers gave her.

And as for the lyrical content, again, you seem to have forgotten the public confession Janet made in 1997/8. What we found out then was that Rene had been "co-writing" her songs for years as well as guiding her whole career. She said she had felt guilty giving interviews claiming credit for his ideas. After he left her career was never the same and the songwriting took a massive turn for the worse. The lyrics particularly became ATROCIOUS at that point. Absolutely appalling. However much Rene got paid after their divorce he deserved every penny. Without him, her career became a train-wreck and an embarrassment. Pretty much everyone who's not a besotted fan can see this.

Even if you weren't just a troll, and had legitimately typed "Janet Jackson is the black Britney Spears" with a straight face, I'd still think you were nothing more than an idiot with some sort of weird axe to grind against Janet. No matter what you think of her talent, to put Janet Jackson, a woman who has co-written the bulk of her output, helped lead the path for today's pop performers and created an image that generations of performers have followed, in the same sentence as Britney Spears, saying the only difference between them is race, is proof that you are full of shit. As for the dancing, Michael Jackson did not choreograph Thriller or Bad or any other piece of work by himself. He had choreographers doing it for him. He did not write many of his hits by himself. Rod Temperton, Quincy Jones and, later, Teddy Riley and R. Kelly were responsible for many of his hits. It was apparent during his last album that whatever mo-jo or creative partnership he had with those people was long gone (besides the fact that he wasn't working with them anymore--DARKCHILD ain't no Quincy J), hence the reason there was no real magic in INVINCIBLE. Janet also had choreographers, but she also helped co-choreograph several pieces during the RN project and several of the albums that followed. Her albums are based off of what is happening in HER life, which makes her the spearhead of where her albums will go from a visual and a lyrical standpoint. Her lyrical content post-VR and whether or not it was "up to par" is subjective, but some of her best songs came after that period. And her career was certainly not a "train wreck" when she and Rene spilt. If I do recall, she would reap her highest first-week sales ever, a couple more #1 and #2 albums and more hits AFTER he was out of the picture. Whatever else happened to her career was an after-effect of the SB incident. Blacklisting will do that kind of thing to you. Oh, and you're still an idiot. It bears repeating.

Given that Michael Jackson has just been accused of child abuse by yet another one of his former playmates (this time the boy from the Pepsi ad - Jimmy Safechuck, let's just call him boy number 6) I'm reluctant to waste time talking about something as trivial as Janet. But since you're now calling me an idiot and a troll I really don't have much choice. I'll try and keep this brief.

First of all, it's extremely revealing that in this long, rambling post of yours you made not a single mention of the biggest point. The fact that Janet and Rene have BOTH separately and repeatedly confirmed that he was the uncredited co-writer of her songs. There is no debate to be had about this. It is a simple fact. You would have a lot more credibility if you simply admitted this rather than tap-dancing around it.

And the decline in Janet's output after Rene's departure is only "subjective" if you live in stan-land. In the Rene-years there was an intelligence guiding Janet's career. Each album had a different theme. There was the sense of a journey. As soon as Rene left that all went out the window. Each album just blended into the other in a haphazard, random way.

LA Reid who worked with her on her last album project described it as frustrating because she didn't really know what she wanted. Well, the truth is it's been that way throughout her entire career. So she relied on mentors. It's no coincidence that her next long term boyfriend after Rene was another strong-minded, confident figure in the industry who took an active role in her career (Jermaine Dupri). Before Rene of course her father had played a similar role. Then John McClain (who persuaded her to work with Jam & Lewis). She has always leaned on men for guidance.

Earlier, you mentioned the Pleasure Principle. Well, in the documentary Everybody Dance Now the choreographer described the evolution behind that video. It was quite revealing. It started when "the guy who was guiding her at the time" (Rene?) decided that they needed to have a video of Janet dancing by herself. Janet looked at the choreographer in fear. She didn't know if she could do it. The choreographer said she could do it "if it's done right; if it's filmed well and choreographed to a T". Those are his words. He was saying that it would only work if nothing was left to chance. If every single part of it was choreographed. This is the OPPOSITE of Michael Jackson. He worked with choreographers of course, but he could also freestyle. There was no choreographer for his iconic Motown 25 performance for instance. He could take or leave them. This was not the case for Janet as that anecdote clearly shows.

[Edited 8/11/14 4:26am]

SEANMAN said:

go2theMax said:

the only thing U did remind us is how delusional and a pain in the ass U,J-stans, are...no one would change their mind about her based on your fanatic point of view

Oh, you again?

[flame snip - M]

midnightmover said:

SEANMAN said:

midnightmover said:

Jesus, you two are not the sharpest tools in the box, are you? You seriously think I don't know that Janet came out before Britney? Use your heads, guys. Of course Janet came first, but that's not the point. Duh! The point is that both of them are completely dependent on choreographers. They are MANUFACTURED artists in every sense of the word.

Janet had better producers and a mentor and co-writer who did a great job of guiding her career (Rene Elizondo), but had she come along 17 years later and been white instead of black she could've easily had an identical career to Spears. They have the same level of talent. Jennifer Lopez is another one of these soulless puppets merely executing her choreographer's instructions. You guys can't see this because, well, as we've established, you're not the sharpest tools in the box.

As for Janet's dancing being more varied than Michael's that is simply a reflection of the fact that he had a style and she didn't. He synthesized elements from street dance, Bob Fosse, etc. and made something distinctly his own. That's what ARTISTS do. Janet was not an artist though. Her style was whatever the choreographers gave her.

And as for the lyrical content, again, you seem to have forgotten the public confession Janet made in 1997/8. What we found out then was that Rene had been "co-writing" her songs for years as well as guiding her whole career. She said she had felt guilty giving interviews claiming credit for his ideas. After he left her career was never the same and the songwriting took a massive turn for the worse. The lyrics particularly became ATROCIOUS at that point. Absolutely appalling. However much Rene got paid after their divorce he deserved every penny. Without him, her career became a train-wreck and an embarrassment. Pretty much everyone who's not a besotted fan can see this.

Even if you weren't just a troll, and had legitimately typed "Janet Jackson is the black Britney Spears" with a straight face, I'd still think you were nothing more than an idiot with some sort of weird axe to grind against Janet. No matter what you think of her talent, to put Janet Jackson, a woman who has co-written the bulk of her output, helped lead the path for today's pop performers and created an image that generations of performers have followed, in the same sentence as Britney Spears, saying the only difference between them is race, is proof that you are full of shit. As for the dancing, Michael Jackson did not choreograph Thriller or Bad or any other piece of work by himself. He had choreographers doing it for him. He did not write many of his hits by himself. Rod Temperton, Quincy Jones and, later, Teddy Riley and R. Kelly were responsible for many of his hits. It was apparent during his last album that whatever mo-jo or creative partnership he had with those people was long gone (besides the fact that he wasn't working with them anymore--DARKCHILD ain't no Quincy J), hence the reason there was no real magic in INVINCIBLE. Janet also had choreographers, but she also helped co-choreograph several pieces during the RN project and several of the albums that followed. Her albums are based off of what is happening in HER life, which makes her the spearhead of where her albums will go from a visual and a lyrical standpoint. Her lyrical content post-VR and whether or not it was "up to par" is subjective, but some of her best songs came after that period. And her career was certainly not a "train wreck" when she and Rene spilt. If I do recall, she would reap her highest first-week sales ever, a couple more #1 and #2 albums and more hits AFTER he was out of the picture. Whatever else happened to her career was an after-effect of the SB incident. Blacklisting will do that kind of thing to you. Oh, and you're still an idiot. It bears repeating.

Janet should hire you as her publicist!!!

[Edited 8/11/14 13:03pm]

go2theMax said:

SEANMAN said:

Oh, you again?

oh, I'd love 2 see the ugly unhappy fat a** behind your posts..the one who plays 2 be superior 2 others..

Well, seeing as though I am neither fat nor unhappy, I'm afraid you'd be disappointed. The superior part is your own complex showing.

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

SEANMAN said:

Even if you weren't just a troll, and had legitimately typed "Janet Jackson is the black Britney Spears" with a straight face, I'd still think you were nothing more than an idiot with some sort of weird axe to grind against Janet. No matter what you think of her talent, to put Janet Jackson, a woman who has co-written the bulk of her output, helped lead the path for today's pop performers and created an image that generations of performers have followed, in the same sentence as Britney Spears, saying the only difference between them is race, is proof that you are full of shit. As for the dancing, Michael Jackson did not choreograph Thriller or Bad or any other piece of work by himself. He had choreographers doing it for him. He did not write many of his hits by himself. Rod Temperton, Quincy Jones and, later, Teddy Riley and R. Kelly were responsible for many of his hits. It was apparent during his last album that whatever mo-jo or creative partnership he had with those people was long gone (besides the fact that he wasn't working with them anymore--DARKCHILD ain't no Quincy J), hence the reason there was no real magic in INVINCIBLE. Janet also had choreographers, but she also helped co-choreograph several pieces during the RN project and several of the albums that followed. Her albums are based off of what is happening in HER life, which makes her the spearhead of where her albums will go from a visual and a lyrical standpoint. Her lyrical content post-VR and whether or not it was "up to par" is subjective, but some of her best songs came after that period. And her career was certainly not a "train wreck" when she and Rene spilt. If I do recall, she would reap her highest first-week sales ever, a couple more #1 and #2 albums and more hits AFTER he was out of the picture. Whatever else happened to her career was an after-effect of the SB incident. Blacklisting will do that kind of thing to you. Oh, and you're still an idiot. It bears repeating.

Janet should hire you as her publicist!!!

[Edited 8/11/14 13:03pm]

I'd love the chance to do it!

BlackCat1985 said:

midnightmover said:

Given that Michael Jackson has just been accused of child abuse by yet another one of his former playmates (this time the boy from the Pepsi ad - Jimmy Safechuck, let's just call him boy number 6) I'm reluctant to waste time talking about something as trivial as Janet. But since you're now calling me an idiot and a troll I really don't have much choice. I'll try and keep this brief.

First of all, it's extremely revealing that in this long, rambling post of yours you made not a single mention of the biggest point. The fact that Janet and Rene have BOTH separately and repeatedly confirmed that he was the uncredited co-writer of her songs. There is no debate to be had about this. It is a simple fact. You would have a lot more credibility if you simply admitted this rather than tap-dancing around it.

And the decline in Janet's output after Rene's departure is only "subjective" if you live in stan-land. In the Rene-years there was an intelligence guiding Janet's career. Each album had a different theme. There was the sense of a journey. As soon as Rene left that all went out the window. Each album just blended into the other in a haphazard, random way.

LA Reid who worked with her on her last album project described it as frustrating because she didn't really know what she wanted. Well, the truth is it's been that way throughout her entire career. So she relied on mentors. It's no coincidence that her next long term boyfriend after Rene was another strong-minded, confident figure in the industry who took an active role in her career (Jermaine Dupri). Before Rene of course her father had played a similar role. Then John McClain (who persuaded her to work with Jam & Lewis). She has always leaned on men for guidance.

Earlier, you mentioned the Pleasure Principle. Well, in the documentary Everybody Dance Now the choreographer described the evolution behind that video. It was quite revealing. It started when "the guy who was guiding her at the time" (Rene?) decided that they needed to have a video of Janet dancing by herself. Janet looked at the choreographer in fear. She didn't know if she could do it. The choreographer said she could do it "if it's done right; if it's filmed well and choreographed to a T". Those are his words. He was saying that it would only work if nothing was left to chance. If every single part of it was choreographed. This is the OPPOSITE of Michael Jackson. He worked with choreographers of course, but he could also freestyle. There was no choreographer for his iconic Motown 25 performance for instance. He could take or leave them. This was not the case for Janet as that anecdote clearly shows.

[Edited 8/11/14 4:26am]

You are reluctant to waste time talking about Janet? But you are the main naysayer in here talking shit about her. I guess you've exhausted your Mj hate talk now its on to Janet uh? Are you a former Janet fan? Because you seem to think that you know so much about her. [Edited 8/11/14 7:54am]

I'd actually give him (her?) and Qazz an equal score in their weird anti-Janetism . They're both pretty odd. Spending a lot of time in a thread when someone you "don't care for" is the subject gives new meaning to the word 'counterproductive'.

Militant said:

I think Janet's success speaks for itself. She's a legend and an icon with at least three classic albums under her belt and several other very strong ones.

THIS.

SEANMAN said:

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

Janet should hire you as her publicist!!!

[Edited 8/11/14 13:03pm]

I'd love the chance to do it!

midnightmover said:

SEANMAN said:

Even if you weren't just a troll, and had legitimately typed "Janet Jackson is the black Britney Spears" with a straight face, I'd still think you were nothing more than an idiot with some sort of weird axe to grind against Janet. No matter what you think of her talent, to put Janet Jackson, a woman who has co-written the bulk of her output, helped lead the path for today's pop performers and created an image that generations of performers have followed, in the same sentence as Britney Spears, saying the only difference between them is race, is proof that you are full of shit. As for the dancing, Michael Jackson did not choreograph Thriller or Bad or any other piece of work by himself. He had choreographers doing it for him. He did not write many of his hits by himself. Rod Temperton, Quincy Jones and, later, Teddy Riley and R. Kelly were responsible for many of his hits. It was apparent during his last album that whatever mo-jo or creative partnership he had with those people was long gone (besides the fact that he wasn't working with them anymore--DARKCHILD ain't no Quincy J), hence the reason there was no real magic in INVINCIBLE. Janet also had choreographers, but she also helped co-choreograph several pieces during the RN project and several of the albums that followed. Her albums are based off of what is happening in HER life, which makes her the spearhead of where her albums will go from a visual and a lyrical standpoint. Her lyrical content post-VR and whether or not it was "up to par" is subjective, but some of her best songs came after that period. And her career was certainly not a "train wreck" when she and Rene spilt. If I do recall, she would reap her highest first-week sales ever, a couple more #1 and #2 albums and more hits AFTER he was out of the picture. Whatever else happened to her career was an after-effect of the SB incident. Blacklisting will do that kind of thing to you. Oh, and you're still an idiot. It bears repeating.

Given that Michael Jackson has just been accused of child abuse by yet another one of his former playmates (this time the boy from the Pepsi ad - Jimmy Safechuck, let's just call him boy number 6) I'm reluctant to waste time talking about something as trivial as Janet. But since you're now calling me an idiot and a troll I really don't have much choice. I'll try and keep this brief.

First of all, it's extremely revealing that in this long, rambling post of yours you made not a single mention of the biggest point. The fact that Janet and Rene have BOTH separately and repeatedly confirmed that he was the uncredited co-writer of her songs. There is no debate to be had about this. It is a simple fact. You would have a lot more credibility if you simply admitted this rather than tap-dancing around it.

And the decline in Janet's output after Rene's departure is only "subjective" if you live in stan-land. In the Rene-years there was an intelligence guiding Janet's career. Each album had a different theme. There was the sense of a journey. As soon as Rene left that all went out the window. Each album just blended into the other in a haphazard, random way.

LA Reid who worked with her on her last album project described it as frustrating because she didn't really know what she wanted. Well, the truth is it's been that way throughout her entire career. So she relied on mentors. It's no coincidence that her next long term boyfriend after Rene was another strong-minded, confident figure in the industry who took an active role in her career (Jermaine Dupri). Before Rene of course her father had played a similar role. Then John McClain (who persuaded her to work with Jam & Lewis). She has always leaned on men for guidance.

Earlier, you mentioned the Pleasure Principle. Well, in the documentary Everybody Dance Now the choreographer described the evolution behind that video. It was quite revealing. It started when "the guy who was guiding her at the time" (Rene?) decided that they needed to have a video of Janet dancing by herself. Janet looked at the choreographer in fear. She didn't know if she could do it. The choreographer said she could do it "if it's done right; if it's filmed well and choreographed to a T". Those are his words. He was saying that it would only work if nothing was left to chance. If every single part of it was choreographed. This is the OPPOSITE of Michael Jackson. He worked with choreographers of course, but he could also freestyle. There was no choreographer for his iconic Motown 25 performance for instance. He could take or leave them. This was not the case for Janet as that anecdote clearly shows.

[Edited 8/11/14 4:26am]

i wouldnt normally respond to you but i have to correct you on something, rene was not 'the man guiding her' during pleasure principle, that would have been john mcclain. so basically your beef with janet is that rene may have co-written some of her songs (ok, so what?), and she had choreographers create her routines (thats what they are paid for). question is when has janet ever said she didnt use choreographers or that she wrote all her songs? as a fan all i care about is the end result...good music,great videos,performances,ect. if she did the work and learned all of the routines to perfection how is that a bad thing, truth is she outdanced her dancers/choreographers.whatever your beef with janet/mj and the jackson family is about you come off as if you have a problem with their fans, just because you dont like somebody you cant be upset because some people do.

midnightmover said:

SEANMAN said:

Even if you weren't just a troll, and had legitimately typed "Janet Jackson is the black Britney Spears" with a straight face, I'd still think you were nothing more than an idiot with some sort of weird axe to grind against Janet. No matter what you think of her talent, to put Janet Jackson, a woman who has co-written the bulk of her output, helped lead the path for today's pop performers and created an image that generations of performers have followed, in the same sentence as Britney Spears, saying the only difference between them is race, is proof that you are full of shit. As for the dancing, Michael Jackson did not choreograph Thriller or Bad or any other piece of work by himself. He had choreographers doing it for him. He did not write many of his hits by himself. Rod Temperton, Quincy Jones and, later, Teddy Riley and R. Kelly were responsible for many of his hits. It was apparent during his last album that whatever mo-jo or creative partnership he had with those people was long gone (besides the fact that he wasn't working with them anymore--DARKCHILD ain't no Quincy J), hence the reason there was no real magic in INVINCIBLE. Janet also had choreographers, but she also helped co-choreograph several pieces during the RN project and several of the albums that followed. Her albums are based off of what is happening in HER life, which makes her the spearhead of where her albums will go from a visual and a lyrical standpoint. Her lyrical content post-VR and whether or not it was "up to par" is subjective, but some of her best songs came after that period. And her career was certainly not a "train wreck" when she and Rene spilt. If I do recall, she would reap her highest first-week sales ever, a couple more #1 and #2 albums and more hits AFTER he was out of the picture. Whatever else happened to her career was an after-effect of the SB incident. Blacklisting will do that kind of thing to you. Oh, and you're still an idiot. It bears repeating.

Given that Michael Jackson has just been accused of child abuse by yet another one of his former playmates (this time the boy from the Pepsi ad - Jimmy Safechuck, let's just call him boy number 6) I'm reluctant to waste time talking about something as trivial as Janet. But since you're now calling me an idiot and a troll I really don't have much choice. I'll try and keep this brief.

First of all, it's extremely revealing that in this long, rambling post of yours you made not a single mention of the biggest point. The fact that Janet and Rene have BOTH separately and repeatedly confirmed that he was the uncredited co-writer of her songs. There is no debate to be had about this. It is a simple fact. You would have a lot more credibility if you simply admitted this rather than tap-dancing around it.

And the decline in Janet's output after Rene's departure is only "subjective" if you live in stan-land. In the Rene-years there was an intelligence guiding Janet's career. Each album had a different theme. There was the sense of a journey. As soon as Rene left that all went out the window. Each album just blended into the other in a haphazard, random way.

LA Reid who worked with her on her last album project described it as frustrating because she didn't really know what she wanted. Well, the truth is it's been that way throughout her entire career. So she relied on mentors. It's no coincidence that her next long term boyfriend after Rene was another strong-minded, confident figure in the industry who took an active role in her career (Jermaine Dupri). Before Rene of course her father had played a similar role. Then John McClain (who persuaded her to work with Jam & Lewis). She has always leaned on men for guidance.

Earlier, you mentioned the Pleasure Principle. Well, in the documentary Everybody Dance Now the choreographer described the evolution behind that video. It was quite revealing. It started when "the guy who was guiding her at the time" (Rene?) decided that they needed to have a video of Janet dancing by herself. Janet looked at the choreographer in fear. She didn't know if she could do it. The choreographer said she could do it "if it's done right; if it's filmed well and choreographed to a T". Those are his words. He was saying that it would only work if nothing was left to chance. If every single part of it was choreographed. This is the OPPOSITE of Michael Jackson. He worked with choreographers of course, but he could also freestyle. There was no choreographer for his iconic Motown 25 performance for instance. He could take or leave them. This was not the case for Janet as that anecdote clearly shows.

You’re reluctant to talk about something because of a new accusation against Michael Jackson? Are you one of the executors to the estate? If Janet is so trivial to you, then what are you doing in here, particularly since we already know your stance? It’s because you’re a troll. The outfit certainly fits you, so you should stop fighting it, slip that baby on and wear it with pride. As for the “length and breadth” of my post, well, it was no more long or rambling than the many posts where you’ve waxed poetic about Janet not being an artist, about Janet being a puppet, about Janet’s lack of artistry, about Janet being a black Britney Spears (I’m still reeling over THAT one), about Janet’s boobs…um, okay, maybe you didn’t say that last one, but you get the gist.

Now, getting to your so-called “biggest point”. I believe I mentioned up-thread how I pretty much discounted the bulk of what Mr. Elizondo had to say when he came out about co-writing, for instance, “Black Cat”. He did not co-write “Black Cat”. He said many things during that time because he was involved in a heated divorce, and when people are involved in things like a heated divorce, they sometimes say things that might not be 100% truthful. And I believe I covered Janet as well when I stated that yes, Rene probably wrote some stuff during the VELVET ROPE era, but Jimmy Jam even stated that he never saw Rene pick up a pen and pad and write much of anything. I said that Janet probably gave him a lot more credit for writing “because of love”. Rene was a visual guy. A director. She even thanked him in the liner notes of the RN album by saying “Thanks for the visuals.” You also mentioned some documentary about Barry Lather speaking about Janet being afraid to do the “Pleasure Principle” choreography, whateverwhateverwhatever, but what amazed me more about you saying that is the fact that you probably gleaned more from Mr. Lather’s interview than what was really there. I, too, have seen many an interview/documentary/what-have-you about Janet, and yes, she was shy, but once she got out there and performed, she became a different person. It’s a Jackson trait that even Michael possessed (shy offstage, a dynamo onstage). That’s a lot of assumptions on your part about an artist who, as you claim, is just a “trivial, black Britney Spears.” For someone who takes the time to dismiss Janet and her legacy the way you’ve done in this thread, you seem to follow her career quite a bit. I find that…interesting. It’s like you’re some sort of unabashed masochist. “I don’t respect her as an artist, but I’ll watch documentaries about her, tally her album sales, etc, just for the hell of it.” I’ll just chalk it up to the fact that you probably do like her, but it’s her fans you don’t care too much for, which is pretty hilarious to me because it’s the stance that a lot of anti-Janet (or anti-anybody) trolls like yourself take. I like (or used to like) her, but her “stans” made me hate her. Or maybe you really don’t care much for her, which is fine too, but it brings me back to my earlier point that you spend a LOT of time in her thread. That’s trolling at its highest order.

Oh, and one last thing. Many artists rely on mentors, MJ included (Quincy Jones who?). The crux of the themes of Janet’s iconic albums ALL stemmed from something that was going on in her life. Not Rene Elizondo’s life. Not John McClain’s life (a man that Janet hired after she fired her father as her manager. You knew that, right?). She’s also had some female managers, but that’s beside the point since you’re so hung up on the men in her life. Anyway…in short: CONTROL--her life. RN 1814--her world. Janet.--her sexuality. THE VELVET ROPE--her depression. ALL FOR YOU--her freedom. No male guidance needed.

--signing off from “Stan-Land” (which, by the way, takes the prize as THE stupidest phrase I’ve ever seen typed on an internet forum)

lowkey said:

midnightmover said:

Given that Michael Jackson has just been accused of child abuse by yet another one of his former playmates (this time the boy from the Pepsi ad - Jimmy Safechuck, let's just call him boy number 6) I'm reluctant to waste time talking about something as trivial as Janet. But since you're now calling me an idiot and a troll I really don't have much choice. I'll try and keep this brief.

First of all, it's extremely revealing that in this long, rambling post of yours you made not a single mention of the biggest point. The fact that Janet and Rene have BOTH separately and repeatedly confirmed that he was the uncredited co-writer of her songs. There is no debate to be had about this. It is a simple fact. You would have a lot more credibility if you simply admitted this rather than tap-dancing around it.

And the decline in Janet's output after Rene's departure is only "subjective" if you live in stan-land. In the Rene-years there was an intelligence guiding Janet's career. Each album had a different theme. There was the sense of a journey. As soon as Rene left that all went out the window. Each album just blended into the other in a haphazard, random way.

LA Reid who worked with her on her last album project described it as frustrating because she didn't really know what she wanted. Well, the truth is it's been that way throughout her entire career. So she relied on mentors. It's no coincidence that her next long term boyfriend after Rene was another strong-minded, confident figure in the industry who took an active role in her career (Jermaine Dupri). Before Rene of course her father had played a similar role. Then John McClain (who persuaded her to work with Jam & Lewis). She has always leaned on men for guidance.

Earlier, you mentioned the Pleasure Principle. Well, in the documentary Everybody Dance Now the choreographer described the evolution behind that video. It was quite revealing. It started when "the guy who was guiding her at the time" (Rene?) decided that they needed to have a video of Janet dancing by herself. Janet looked at the choreographer in fear. She didn't know if she could do it. The choreographer said she could do it "if it's done right; if it's filmed well and choreographed to a T". Those are his words. He was saying that it would only work if nothing was left to chance. If every single part of it was choreographed. This is the OPPOSITE of Michael Jackson. He worked with choreographers of course, but he could also freestyle. There was no choreographer for his iconic Motown 25 performance for instance. He could take or leave them. This was not the case for Janet as that anecdote clearly shows.

i wouldnt normally respond to you but i have to correct you on something, rene was not 'the man guiding her' during pleasure principle, that would have been john mcclain. so basically your beef with janet is that rene may have co-written some of her songs (ok, so what?), and she had choreographers create her routines (thats what they are paid for). question is when has janet ever said she didnt use choreographers or that she wrote all her songs? as a fan all i care about is the end result...good music,great videos,performances,ect. if she did the work and learned all of the routines to perfection how is that a bad thing, truth is she outdanced her dancers/choreographers.whatever your beef with janet/mj and the jackson family is about you come off as if you have a problem with their fans, just because you dont like somebody you cant be upset because some people do.

Exactly. It's not a bad thing at all. Janet is an innate dancer. It's just that people like that troll have some sort of weird grudge or, like you said, beef. Be it with the artist or with that artist's fans, it's just crazy.

lowkey said:

midnightmover said:

Given that Michael Jackson has just been accused of child abuse by yet another one of his former playmates (this time the boy from the Pepsi ad - Jimmy Safechuck, let's just call him boy number 6) I'm reluctant to waste time talking about something as trivial as Janet. But since you're now calling me an idiot and a troll I really don't have much choice. I'll try and keep this brief.

First of all, it's extremely revealing that in this long, rambling post of yours you made not a single mention of the biggest point. The fact that Janet and Rene have BOTH separately and repeatedly confirmed that he was the uncredited co-writer of her songs. There is no debate to be had about this. It is a simple fact. You would have a lot more credibility if you simply admitted this rather than tap-dancing around it.

And the decline in Janet's output after Rene's departure is only "subjective" if you live in stan-land. In the Rene-years there was an intelligence guiding Janet's career. Each album had a different theme. There was the sense of a journey. As soon as Rene left that all went out the window. Each album just blended into the other in a haphazard, random way.

LA Reid who worked with her on her last album project described it as frustrating because she didn't really know what she wanted. Well, the truth is it's been that way throughout her entire career. So she relied on mentors. It's no coincidence that her next long term boyfriend after Rene was another strong-minded, confident figure in the industry who took an active role in her career (Jermaine Dupri). Before Rene of course her father had played a similar role. Then John McClain (who persuaded her to work with Jam & Lewis). She has always leaned on men for guidance.

Earlier, you mentioned the Pleasure Principle. Well, in the documentary Everybody Dance Now the choreographer described the evolution behind that video. It was quite revealing. It started when "the guy who was guiding her at the time" (Rene?) decided that they needed to have a video of Janet dancing by herself. Janet looked at the choreographer in fear. She didn't know if she could do it. The choreographer said she could do it "if it's done right; if it's filmed well and choreographed to a T". Those are his words. He was saying that it would only work if nothing was left to chance. If every single part of it was choreographed. This is the OPPOSITE of Michael Jackson. He worked with choreographers of course, but he could also freestyle. There was no choreographer for his iconic Motown 25 performance for instance. He could take or leave them. This was not the case for Janet as that anecdote clearly shows.

[Edited 8/11/14 4:26am]

i wouldnt normally respond to you but i have to correct you on something, rene was not 'the man guiding her' during pleasure principle, that would have been john mcclain. so basically your beef with janet is that rene may have co-written some of her songs (ok, so what?), and she had choreographers create her routines (thats what they are paid for). question is when has janet ever said she didnt use choreographers or that she wrote all her songs? as a fan all i care about is the end result...good music,great videos,performances,ect. if she did the work and learned all of the routines to perfection how is that a bad thing, truth is she outdanced her dancers/choreographers.whatever your beef with janet/mj and the jackson family is about you come off as if you have a problem with their fans, just because you dont like somebody you cant be upset because some people do.

You're not correcting me on anything since I put a question mark around the issue of who was guiding her at the time of PP (go back and look at the post again). I put the question mark there because there is some ambiguity about it. We know Rene entered her life in the mid-80s but at what point he became her boyfriend and mentor is unclear. PP came out a year after the album was released so it's possible Rene could've been in charge by then, but it doesn't matter anyway. What matters is that the choreographer's account of the process shows her as a passive participant in the whole process. That's the point.

And I agree with you that the end result is what matters. No-one cares for instance that Diana Ross didn't write her own songs. That's because she never pretended to be anything she wasn't. The issue with Janet though is that she DID pretend. She pretended for many years. And even all these years later there are fans who are portraying her as something she wasn't. Sorry, but the evidence is clear. Janet was a puppet.

SEANMAN said:

midnightmover said:

Given that Michael Jackson has just been accused of child abuse by yet another one of his former playmates (this time the boy from the Pepsi ad - Jimmy Safechuck, let's just call him boy number 6) I'm reluctant to waste time talking about something as trivial as Janet. But since you're now calling me an idiot and a troll I really don't have much choice. I'll try and keep this brief.

First of all, it's extremely revealing that in this long, rambling post of yours you made not a single mention of the biggest point. The fact that Janet and Rene have BOTH separately and repeatedly confirmed that he was the uncredited co-writer of her songs. There is no debate to be had about this. It is a simple fact. You would have a lot more credibility if you simply admitted this rather than tap-dancing around it.

And the decline in Janet's output after Rene's departure is only "subjective" if you live in stan-land. In the Rene-years there was an intelligence guiding Janet's career. Each album had a different theme. There was the sense of a journey. As soon as Rene left that all went out the window. Each album just blended into the other in a haphazard, random way.

LA Reid who worked with her on her last album project described it as frustrating because she didn't really know what she wanted. Well, the truth is it's been that way throughout her entire career. So she relied on mentors. It's no coincidence that her next long term boyfriend after Rene was another strong-minded, confident figure in the industry who took an active role in her career (Jermaine Dupri). Before Rene of course her father had played a similar role. Then John McClain (who persuaded her to work with Jam & Lewis). She has always leaned on men for guidance.

Earlier, you mentioned the Pleasure Principle. Well, in the documentary Everybody Dance Now the choreographer described the evolution behind that video. It was quite revealing. It started when "the guy who was guiding her at the time" (Rene?) decided that they needed to have a video of Janet dancing by herself. Janet looked at the choreographer in fear. She didn't know if she could do it. The choreographer said she could do it "if it's done right; if it's filmed well and choreographed to a T". Those are his words. He was saying that it would only work if nothing was left to chance. If every single part of it was choreographed. This is the OPPOSITE of Michael Jackson. He worked with choreographers of course, but he could also freestyle. There was no choreographer for his iconic Motown 25 performance for instance. He could take or leave them. This was not the case for Janet as that anecdote clearly shows.

You’re reluctant to talk about something because of a new accusation against Michael Jackson? Are you one of the executors to the estate? If Janet is so trivial to you, then what are you doing in here, particularly since we already know your stance? It’s because you’re a troll. The outfit certainly fits you, so you should stop fighting it, slip that baby on and wear it with pride. As for the “length and breadth” of my post, well, it was no more long or rambling than the many posts where you’ve waxed poetic about Janet not being an artist, about Janet being a puppet, about Janet’s lack of artistry, about Janet being a black Britney Spears (I’m still reeling over THAT one), about Janet’s boobs…um, okay, maybe you didn’t say that last one, but you get the gist.

Now, getting to your so-called “biggest point”. I believe I mentioned up-thread how I pretty much discounted the bulk of what Mr. Elizondo had to say when he came out about co-writing, for instance, “Black Cat”. He did not co-write “Black Cat”. He said many things during that time because he was involved in a heated divorce, and when people are involved in things like a heated divorce, they sometimes say things that might not be 100% truthful. And I believe I covered Janet as well when I stated that yes, Rene probably wrote some stuff during the VELVET ROPE era, but Jimmy Jam even stated that he never saw Rene pick up a pen and pad and write much of anything. I said that Janet probably gave him a lot more credit for writing “because of love”. Rene was a visual guy. A director. She even thanked him in the liner notes of the RN album by saying “Thanks for the visuals.” You also mentioned some documentary about Barry Lather speaking about Janet being afraid to do the “Pleasure Principle” choreography, whateverwhateverwhatever, but what amazed me more about you saying that is the fact that you probably gleaned more from Mr. Lather’s interview than what was really there. I, too, have seen many an interview/documentary/what-have-you about Janet, and yes, she was shy, but once she got out there and performed, she became a different person. It’s a Jackson trait that even Michael possessed (shy offstage, a dynamo onstage). That’s a lot of assumptions on your part about an artist who, as you claim, is just a “trivial, black Britney Spears.” For someone who takes the time to dismiss Janet and her legacy the way you’ve done in this thread, you seem to follow her career quite a bit. I find that…interesting. It’s like you’re some sort of unabashed masochist. “I don’t respect her as an artist, but I’ll watch documentaries about her, tally her album sales, etc, just for the hell of it.” I’ll just chalk it up to the fact that you probably do like her, but it’s her fans you don’t care too much for, which is pretty hilarious to me because it’s the stance that a lot of anti-Janet (or anti-anybody) trolls like yourself take. I like (or used to like) her, but her “stans” made me hate her. Or maybe you really don’t care much for her, which is fine too, but it brings me back to my earlier point that you spend a LOT of time in her thread. That’s trolling at its highest order.

Oh, and one last thing. Many artists rely on mentors, MJ included (Quincy Jones who?). The crux of the themes of Janet’s iconic albums ALL stemmed from something that was going on in her life. Not Rene Elizondo’s life. Not John McClain’s life (a man that Janet hired after she fired her father as her manager. You knew that, right?). She’s also had some female managers, but that’s beside the point since you’re so hung up on the men in her life. Anyway…in short: CONTROL--her life. RN 1814--her world. Janet.--her sexuality. THE VELVET ROPE--her depression. ALL FOR YOU--her freedom. No male guidance needed.

--signing off from “Stan-Land” (which, by the way, takes the prize as THE stupidest phrase I’ve ever seen typed on an internet forum)

I've already explained that the only reason I'm still here is because you have repeatedly called me names that I won't repeat. When people insult me I don't just walk away.

Now, it's good to see that you've stopped overlooking the issue of Rene's uncredited co-writes. Only one problem though. Whereas you previously dodged the issue by avoiding it, you're now dodging it in an even worse way. You've resorted to straightforward lying. You've pretended to make an admission that Rene "probably" co-wrote some VR material. But that is no admission at all since Rene was credited for his co-writes on that album at the time. In fact it's dishonest of you to even use the word "probably" there. Just take a look at the album sleeve. His name is on the credits for every single new song on there, so what the fuck are you saying "probably" for?

So no, that's not the issue here and you know it. The issue is that, as Janet admitted (in an interview with Rolling Stone magazine among many others) Rene had been the co-writer of almost all her songs since Rhythm Nation. He was the UNCREDITED co-writer. Those were Janet's words, not mine and not Rene's. You know this full well. To pretend not to know it is extremely dishonest on your part. It's time to stop tap-dancing around this issue. Either you think Janet was lying about this (in which case you should say so) or else you have to admit that you are wrong. It's one or the other.

And you've also misrepresented the issue of Barry Lather's comments about the Pleasure Principle. We're not talking about shyness here. We're talking about how the ideas came from other people. She was passive throughout the process and (by Lather's own admission) they knew she could only pull it off if it was "choreographed to a T". That confirms what I said earlier. Like J-Lo and Britney Spears, she could not freestyle. She had no stand-alone moves of her own. That's a big difference between her and her brother.

midnightmover said:

lowkey said:

You're not correcting me on anything since I put a question mark around the issue of who was guiding her at the time of PP (go back and look at the post again). I put the question mark there because there is some ambiguity about it. We know Rene entered her life in the mid-80s but at what point he became her boyfriend and mentor is unclear. PP came out a year after the album was released so it's possible Rene could've been in charge by then, but it doesn't matter anyway. What matters is that the choreographer's account of the process shows her as a passive participant in the whole process. That's the point.

And I agree with you that the end result is what matters. No-one cares for instance that Diana Ross didn't write her own songs. That's because she never pretended to be anything she wasn't. The issue with Janet though is that she DID pretend. She pretended for many years. And even all these years later there are fans who are portraying her as something she wasn't. Sorry, but the evidence is clear. Janet was a puppet.

ok when has janet ever pretended to do anything she didnt do? she has been open about her insecurities when it came to her music career,she has talked about rene's contributions many times, his name is on the velvet rope credits, she talked about how jimmy and terry helped her gain the confidence to participate in her music,she always gave her choreographers/dancers alot of props. im trying to seriously remember janet ever pretending to be something she's not. janet actually said her and rene were better as creative partners than as a couple.its like you are trying to find a reason to not like janet but the reasons you are coming up with are pretty ridiculous.

lowkey said:

[Edited 8/11/14 4:26am]

i wouldnt normally respond to you but i have to correct you on something, rene was not 'the man guiding her' during pleasure principle, that would have been john mcclain. so basically your beef with janet is that rene may have co-written some of her songs (ok, so what?), and she had choreographers create her routines (thats what they are paid for). question is when has janet ever said she didnt use choreographers or that she wrote all her songs? as a fan all i care about is the end result...good music,great videos,performances,ect. if she did the work and learned all of the routines to perfection how is that a bad thing, truth is she outdanced her dancers/choreographers.whatever your beef with janet/mj and the jackson family is about you come off as if you have a problem with their fans, just because you dont like somebody you cant be upset because some people do.

Lowkey, you were ridiculous when I first was here and, 4 years later, you're still ridiculous. Exactly: choreographers are paid to create routines...by people who lack the talent to do anything even remotely close to it.

Janet is a close to mediocre singer and is not, by any means, a heavyweight talent in any other department. Besides, her music is pop-ish, bubble gum-ish and forced-and-pseudo-erotic. She’s simply not that great.

The only one in the family with true, heavyweight talent was Michael, whether Jackson-family lovers like it or not.

lowkey said:

midnightmover said:

You're not correcting me on anything since I put a question mark around the issue of who was guiding her at the time of PP (go back and look at the post again). I put the question mark there because there is some ambiguity about it. We know Rene entered her life in the mid-80s but at what point he became her boyfriend and mentor is unclear. PP came out a year after the album was released so it's possible Rene could've been in charge by then, but it doesn't matter anyway. What matters is that the choreographer's account of the process shows her as a passive participant in the whole process. That's the point.

And I agree with you that the end result is what matters. No-one cares for instance that Diana Ross didn't write her own songs. That's because she never pretended to be anything she wasn't. The issue with Janet though is that she DID pretend. She pretended for many years. And even all these years later there are fans who are portraying her as something she wasn't. Sorry, but the evidence is clear. Janet was a puppet.

ok when has janet ever pretended to do anything she didnt do? she has been open about her insecurities when it came to her music career,she has talked about rene's contributions many times, his name is on the velvet rope credits, she talked about how jimmy and terry helped her gain the confidence to participate in her music,she always gave her choreographers/dancers alot of props. im trying to seriously remember janet ever pretending to be something she's not. janet actually said her and rene were better as creative partners than as a couple.its like you are trying to find a reason to not like janet but the reasons you are coming up with are pretty ridiculous.

Jesus, have you been paying any attention at all? We've already established that Janet was taking credit for Rene's work for a whole decade. The reason they eventually admitted it was because Rene felt they were being "fraudulent" (that's Janet's word, not mine). The drop in standards after Rene left is also perfectly clear.

If you don't have anything to contribute to the discussion then stay out of it. You're not saying anything that's relevant.

midnightmover said:

lowkey said:

Jesus, have you been paying any attention at all? We've already established that Janet was taking credit for Rene's work for a whole decade. The reason they eventually admitted it was because Rene felt they were being "fraudulent" (that's Janet's word, not mine). The drop in standards after Rene left is also perfectly clear.

If you don't have anything to contribute to the discussion then stay out of it. You're not saying anything that's relevant.

lmao,im still trying to figure out what your rants are about. so you are upset because you feel rene didnt get credit or whatever? far as drop in standards after rene, well thats a matter of opion,there are people who prefer all 4 you or damita jo to some of her older stuff. one thing i can say though is she did have success after the rene split where as he never did anything in the industry before or after his association with her.so according to you it was rene,not the prolific duo of jimmy and terry,most responsible for janet's music? we are adults why are you acting like a spoiled child telling me to stay out of it just because i think your rants and excessive negativity are ridiculous.