well, i think Madonna having hits and being relevant in the charts will end soon. but Madonna always will be relevant.... why? because she is till out there and people still talk about her... she's still a lot in the media, she still has successful tours and she influenced so many (female) pop artists. she'll continue to inspire (female) artists.

also she's the best selling female artist. that says a lot, that wouldn't change.

[Edited 11/17/12 7:35am]

Graycap23 said:

Madonna is more famous 4 fashion, art , and other things than she is 4 music.

What's wrong with this picture?

totally disagree

its always been a combination.

Its ok to not like her Graycap23 but continually trying to put her down is another

Her music is played danced too listened to because its good music that speaks to and for people, accompanies people thru their life like music is supposed to

She has always had hits in the top 10, singles with accompanying videos that will feature fashion and art and nothing wrong with that, thats a part of who she is, Id rather watch a Madonna video than a Marilyn Manson video

And what you said about Madonna can be and prob has been expressed about Prince & Michael Jackson as well Janet Lady Gaga, and many other, nothing wrong with that

Prince almost evenly has been known just as much for his fashion, art and 'other things'

MrUFOman93 said:

IMO she hasn't been relevant to pop culture since 2005 - COADF. Nobody buys her albums anymore and her last two single didn't even made the HOT100.

I feel like people finally see her for what she is - a talentless fraud

if she hasnt been relevant since 2005 lol then why was she the 1/2 time show for the superbowl this year, non-relevant people dont get the superbowl

and her hardcandy tour when ended(after being sold out) went for a 2nd round(being sold out again)

Nobody buys her albums? lol

but she sells out world wide tours

On release Hard Candy debuted at number one in 37 countries worldwide, including the United States, Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Japan, Spain and the United Kingdom and became the eleventh best selling album worldwide of 2008. Worldwide the album has sold more than four million copies.

finally huh after 30 yrs? it took that long lol, naw she in my opinion took a wrong direction after Confessions

take what you said and apply it to Prince ... hmmmmm

Gunsnhalen said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I agree, there is personal relevance and pop cultural relevance(which is what the article is focused on)

And I dont think just being on the charts makes one relevant nor being on the charts or not in America

Prince was extremely relevant and popular in 1988/89 but he wasnt on the top charts not selling billions of albums especially in the USA but in Europe he seemed to have entered another level of superstardom

That is true to!

But it's also sad with how well some of the hits of these artists are panned

I made a thread about prince singles you never hear, and it seems people only want to play when doves cry, Little red corvette, 1999, kiss, purple rain etc. a few times i heard Alphabet Street ^ Rasberry Berret

I have never heard Pop Life, Sign ''O'' The Times, Cream, Diamonds & Pearls, Thieves In The Temple etc.

Just like some of the good Madonna singles like Bad Girl, Take A Bow, Power Of Goodbye etc. Get little play today.

I agree about how the hits are panned, doesnt always make sense

I actually just made a cd of Prince songs to send to a radio station (they ask 4 people to suggest or send in music) theyve been playing a lot of Prince lately along with MJ and Madonna

they play all of the ones u mentioned + IWD4U Baby I'm A Star, Take Me With U so Im sending in some extras

Its weird because songs like Take A Boy & Power of Goodbye were HUGE singles

Maybe its something about how our culture is just so ADD now

OldFriends4Sale said:

Graycap23 said:

Madonna is more famous 4 fashion, art , and other things than she is 4 music.

What's wrong with this picture?

totally disagree

its always been a combination.

Its ok to not like her Graycap23 but continually trying to put her down is another

Her music is played danced too listened to because its good music that speaks to and for people, accompanies people thru their life like music is supposed to

She has always had hits in the top 10, singles with accompanying videos that will feature fashion and art and nothing wrong with that, thats a part of who she is, Id rather watch a Madonna video than a Marilyn Manson video

And what you said about Madonna can be and prob has been expressed about Prince & Michael Jackson as well Janet Lady Gaga, and many other, nothing wrong with that

Prince almost evenly has been known just as much for his fashion, art and 'other things'

Put her down?

MrUFOman93 said:

IMO she hasn't been relevant to pop culture since 2005 - COADF. Nobody buys her albums anymore and her last two single didn't even made the HOT100.

I feel like people finally see her for what she is - a talentless fraud

Nobody buys Prince albums anymore,either...does that make you think less of him too? Prince really hasn't had a 'hit' album since the early 90s.

Newsflash:with few exceptions, veteran artists don't really sell alot of records.It's very rare for an artist over 50 years old to get alot of radio airplay and sell millions of records.But to her credit,Madonna's last three albums gave her at least one Top 10 hit single...

"Hung Up"(2005)

"Give Me All Your Luvin" (2012)

Her last tour in 2008/09 grossed over $400 million and her current tour will likely match those figures,so I wouldn't write her off just yet

Mintchip said:

I agree with everything said about moderate levels of talent, and her gift for image manipulation. But I still think something needs to be said about the songs. It's not just borderline and like a virgin. And it's a lot more than a handful. If you string together every single she released...put em in a line...holy shit that'd be one long line. And ya, there's crap in there. But there's a lot of classic songs too. vogue like a prayer, music, open your heart, express yourself, ray of light...it gets to a point where it's hard to think of another artist with so many damn singles. Most of them quality. Most of them

As far as pop music goes,Madonna has a very impressive catalog.Very few pop artists have as many quality singles as she has had.

Gunsnhalen said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I agree, there is personal relevance and pop cultural relevance(which is what the article is focused on)

And I dont think just being on the charts makes one relevant nor being on the charts or not in America

Prince was extremely relevant and popular in 1988/89 but he wasnt on the top charts not selling billions of albums especially in the USA but in Europe he seemed to have entered another level of superstardom

That is true to!

But it's also sad with how well some of the hits of these artists are panned

I made a thread about prince singles you never hear, and it seems people only want to play when doves cry, Little red corvette, 1999, kiss, purple rain etc. a few times i heard Alphabet Street ^ Rasberry Berret

I have never heard Pop Life, Sign ''O'' The Times, Cream, Diamonds & Pearls, Thieves In The Temple etc.

Just like some of the good Madonna singles like Bad Girl, Take A Bow, Power Of Goodbye etc. Get little play today.

I've heard D&P a couple times on my city's adult station. "Pop Life" came on Sirius the other day.

But they're definitely not played as much as 1999.

Mintchip said:

i hate the word 'relevant'.

it's a snobby thing to imply about anyone; "they're not relevant!"

So ... what?... we shouldn't look? We shouldn't go to the concert? Should I click the link? What's your point?

It feels like a lazy person's way to win an arguement.

I dislike madonna these days because she takes herself too seriously, and she's not that much fun.

See what I did there? It was an opinion!

The second we get rid of meaningless words like "relevant", we can get down to business. Which would be explaining ourselves.

BRAVO! Relevance is what it is and pertains to whomever the subject is relevant TO. I concur wholeheartedly. Who's relevant, what's relevant, how long will it be relevant? Like WHO and WHAT you LIKE!!! It's simpler that way. Relevance is personal. Madonna is relevant to ME. Then again, so is Anne Murray when I'm in the mood.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Graycap23 said:

Madonna is more famous 4 fashion, art , and other things than she is 4 music.

What's wrong with this picture?

totally disagree

its always been a combination.

Its ok to not like her Graycap23 but continually trying to put her down is another

Her music is played danced too listened to because its good music that speaks to and for people, accompanies people thru their life like music is supposed to

She has always had hits in the top 10, singles with accompanying videos that will feature fashion and art and nothing wrong with that, thats a part of who she is, Id rather watch a Madonna video than a Marilyn Manson video

And what you said about Madonna can be and prob has been expressed about Prince & Michael Jackson as well Janet Lady Gaga, and many other, nothing wrong with that

Prince almost evenly has been known just as much for his fashion, art and 'other things'

Thats False.

We get she is an Icon and all that good stuff with that being said.....

Stop trying to compare HER mediocre abilities to artists who have raw talent . MJ and Prince did not rely heavily on gimmicks the same as Madonna did because she doesnt have the same level of talent.

I dont know what point you are trying to argue, everyone pretty much said that she is an Icon and relevant... now with this other stuff you are reaching a little bit to far....

Graycap23 said:

Madonna is more famous 4 fashion, art , and other things than she is 4 music.

What's wrong with this picture?

I agree.

She does have some good quality pop songs though but I think she is mostly seen as an Icon for her ability to reinvent herself, marketing tactics and longevity

MJ and Prince are just as much about fashion and art as Madonna. MJ and Prince didn't perform in an old t shirt and jeans did they? Both Prince and MJ are as much known for their elaborate videos as they are the actual music.

Glindathegood said:

MJ and Prince are just as much about fashion and art as Madonna. MJ and Prince didn't perform in an old t shirt and jeans did they? Both Prince and MJ are as much known for their elaborate videos as they are the actual music.

But they are recognized for their TALENT mostly and MUSIC contributions FIRSTLY... the other things do not come before that. Of course they are recognized for fashion as well but that is not the PRIMARY what they are legends like it is with Madonna.

mjscarousal said:

Glindathegood said:

MJ and Prince are just as much about fashion and art as Madonna. MJ and Prince didn't perform in an old t shirt and jeans did they? Both Prince and MJ are as much known for their elaborate videos as they are the actual music.

But they are recognized for their TALENT mostly and MUSIC contributions FIRSTLY... the other things do not come before that. Of course they are recognized for fashion as well but that is not the PRIMARY what they are legends like it is with Madonna.

That's just your opinion because you don't like her music. To most people, Madonna is also recognized for her music just as much as her fashion. You don't think songs like Live to Tell, Like A Prayer, Ray of Light, Holiday, Into the Groove are something that they think of when they hear the word Madonna? Madonna is not primarily known for fashion, she is just as much remembered for those huge pop hits.

Didn't know she relevant anymore. I can't remember the last I've heard anybody in regular life playing anything new by her @ all.

mjscarousal said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

totally disagree

its always been a combination.

Its ok to not like her Graycap23 but continually trying to put her down is another

Her music is played danced too listened to because its good music that speaks to and for people, accompanies people thru their life like music is supposed to

She has always had hits in the top 10, singles with accompanying videos that will feature fashion and art and nothing wrong with that, thats a part of who she is, Id rather watch a Madonna video than a Marilyn Manson video

And what you said about Madonna can be and prob has been expressed about Prince & Michael Jackson as well Janet Lady Gaga, and many other, nothing wrong with that

Prince almost evenly has been known just as much for his fashion, art and 'other things'

Thats False.

We get she is an Icon and all that good stuff with that being said.....

Stop trying to compare HER mediocre abilities to artists who have raw talent . MJ and Prince did not rely heavily on gimmicks the same as Madonna did because she doesnt have the same level of talent.

I dont know what point you are trying to argue, everyone pretty much said that she is an Icon and relevant... now with this other stuff you are reaching a little bit to far....

Ur hearing what you want to hear

no where did I compare talent. I shouldnt even read the rest of your post because its clear your not comprehending

in what way did Madonna rely heavily on gimmicks? What gimmicks? and We can seriously go down the list of each of them to show how wrong you are. As far as MJ is concerned from Of the Wall forward what did he do so differently than Madonna

There are a whole lot of musicians that are just as good as Prince but Prince did certain things that took him to superstar status, and acting wasnt one of those talents either, he had 4 movies only 1 took Prince doesnt even believe in a lot of his music enough to perform live at least MJ and Madonna would tour to focus on the new music

and i didnt read where anyone said she was an Icon (that is not the topic of discussion) where are talking about what makes someone relevant or not, we are not arguing who is talented more than the other (STay FocuSed)

I said what the other person said as far as fashion art and other things being just as known is NOT false at all

Michael Jackson the King of videos is KNOWN just as much for the look image fashion art and other things dont say its not, MJ is just as much known for his race change as his music which in many ways accompanied the change

Princes look has probably overshadowed his music in many ways, and from the mid 90s to the 2000s U cant tell me Prince is known for the music he releases, but he is known for a lot of the other stuff from the name change slave the 2004 uhh 'comeback the battle with fans, the battle with his WB label the battle with youtube ... and all the while his 80s songs are the ones that are being played mostly

Prince has always been about image and look and nothing wrong with that

Glindathegood said:

mjscarousal said:

But they are recognized for their TALENT mostly and MUSIC contributions FIRSTLY... the other things do not come before that. Of course they are recognized for fashion as well but that is not the PRIMARY what they are legends like it is with Madonna.

That's just your opinion because you don't like her music. To most people, Madonna is also recognized for her music just as much as her fashion. You don't think songs like Live to Tell, Like A Prayer, Ray of Light, Holiday, Into the Groove are something that they think of when they hear the word Madonna? Madonna is not primarily known for fashion, she is just as much remembered for those huge pop hits.

Did you see when I posted that I enjoy a handful of her songs?

I disagree with this. She is still consider more so a Icon for her marketing and image more so than her music

mjscarousal said:

Glindathegood said:

That's just your opinion because you don't like her music. To most people, Madonna is also recognized for her music just as much as her fashion. You don't think songs like Live to Tell, Like A Prayer, Ray of Light, Holiday, Into the Groove are something that they think of when they hear the word Madonna? Madonna is not primarily known for fashion, she is just as much remembered for those huge pop hits.

Did you see when I posted that I enjoy a handful of her songs?

I disagree with this. She is still consider more so a Icon for her marketing and image more so than her music

she is known primarily for the music which the image follows, marketing is something every artist has to do. The reason Princes 20Ten is nowhere because of lack of marketing, and no promo

Madonna was known mostly for dancible music which doesnt need a whole lot, people like to feel good dance, listen to music while they are falling in love or breaking up and she delivered, from the time she came onto the scene, before people knew who she was her music was played on all kinds of radio stations because it was dancible

MJ has always been just as on the marketing and image as Madonna, probably evenmoreso, his movie videos, his concert production, and MJ since the Thriller was continually huge on image and marketing, moreso than both of Madonna & Prince put together

I know MJ had trading cards, not Prince or Madonna, MJ marketed himself times 3

Prince was marketing just as much to get as big, just releasing an album saying he can play 10 instruments wasnt going to get him Purple Reign, where u see Prince fall of the scene is 1st lack of marketing and 1/2 the time bad image. What is most fans #1 reason Lovesexy didnt sell?

Tittypants said:

Didn't know she relevant anymore. I can't remember the last I've heard anybody in regular life playing anything new by her @ all.

if playing something new on certain radio makes one relevant then Prince hasnt been relevant since?

and if you mean anybody in regular life, as in people you know... I hardly think that can make someone relevant or not. Again, that is hardly the definition of relevance, there are a whole lot of people playing music by people they like... do that make the person relevant, No

a whole lot of 1 hit wonders who people are loving that 1 hit, it hardly makes them relevant

Playing Devil's Advocate:

Could her mediocrity be the reason why she's still relevant?

"Transformers 2" grossed just short of a billion dollars! That makes Michael Bay an extremely relevant filmmaker. What it doesn't make him is Martin Scorsese, who has never made a movie gross more then 130 million I believe.

Glindathegood said:

MJ and Prince are just as much about fashion and art as Madonna. MJ and Prince didn't perform in an old t shirt and jeans did they? Both Prince and MJ are as much known for their elaborate videos as they are the actual music.

correct, even Fargnoli when talking about creating Purple Rain the movie, he said Prince and the Time are about the image, which is true, If Madonna is the queen of reinvention then Prince is the king. Im a hUGE fan of Prince culture and I can say truthfully that Prince changed his look and image more than madonna has. the proteges and their presentation, the stage sets the guitars hair styles shoes the fonts of the lyrics in the albums etc etc Prince is HUGE on image and fashion.

Michael Jackson from Bad onward is the one who didnt change his fashion much the look was mostly the same adding a few things each time. recreating video images for concerts etc

4 Prince its even down to the women he dates, right know many fans are questioning the whole Andy Allo thing, and if she is really playing guitar on these shows, no one can say Prince is more about the music, too me it hand in hand for Prince and

I'm a fan of old school reinvention, where an artist had the patience to have a theme from project to project and saw it through.

Nowadays artists who claim to reinvent tend to do so from minute to minute.

OldFriends4Sale said:

mjscarousal said:

Did you see when I posted that I enjoy a handful of her songs?

I disagree with this. She is still consider more so a Icon for her marketing and image more so than her music

she is known primarily for the music which the image follows, marketing is something every artist has to do. The reason Princes 20Ten is nowhere because of lack of marketing, and no promo

Respectfully disagree.

Marketing is something mainstream artists have to do but Madonna is PRIMARILY a Icon because of image reinvention FIRSTLY before her music, EVERYBODY knows this. She has some classics but she is admired and respected because of her changing image, her gimmicks and the various ways/techniques she marketed herself (e.g sex book, controversial antics)

Try as you must to compare her to Prince or MJ but you fail everytime. Yes, they used marketing but IMAGE is not FIRST in why they are legends. There TALENT and MUSIC INNOVATIONS are first not the other way around like it is for Madonna PERIOD. Despite having 0 talent, those other things are what makes her Iconic UNLIKE Prince and MJ who have real talent and made real contributions musically/dance wise.

Madonna was known mostly for dancible music which doesnt need a whole lot, people like to feel good dance, listen to music while they are falling in love or breaking up and she delivered, from the time she came onto the scene, before people knew who she was her music was played on all kinds of radio stations because it was dancible

If you read some of my previous posts, I express that Madonna has some quality pop classics but that is not heavily recognized when people think of Madonna and when people talk about why she is iconic. They NEVER mention she has good dance music. They always mention her daring image risks and the different controversial things she has done or her elaborate shows. Music/ and her alleged talent takes the back seat which is the only thing I am arguing but that does not mean she does not have some classics of course.

MJ has always been just as on the marketing and image as Madonna, probably evenmoreso, his movie videos, his concert production, and MJ since the Thriller was continually huge on image and marketing, moreso than both of Madonna & Prince put together

But the Marketing was related to MUSIC hun What are you not understanding? Prince and MJ success/marketing etc was related THEIR MUSIC AND TALENT. Madonna on the other hand got attention MOSTLY for things non related to her music, and yes that is a difference. Those things makes her the Icon she is which is why Gray asked you the question with how does those things relate to music because it doesnt.

Of course Michael had marketing but he did not rely on gimmicks unlike Madonna who as ZEROE talent besides being a smart business woman and marketing genius.

I know MJ had trading cards, not Prince or Madonna, MJ marketed himself times 3

Prince was marketing just as much to get as big, just releasing an album saying he can play 10 instruments wasnt going to get him Purple Reign, where u see Prince fall of the scene is 1st lack of marketing and 1/2 the time bad image. What is most fans #1 reason Lovesexy didnt sell?

Madonna relied heavily on gimmicks and other marketing ploys that mostly and hardly had anything to do with music. All these examples are irrelevant.

I am not talking about Marketing in its literal sense. I am speaking on everything Madonna did and has done to market herself that has little to do with music and is mostly centered around image and pushes peoples buttons.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Glindathegood said:

MJ and Prince are just as much about fashion and art as Madonna. MJ and Prince didn't perform in an old t shirt and jeans did they? Both Prince and MJ are as much known for their elaborate videos as they are the actual music.

correct, even Fargnoli when talking about creating Purple Rain the movie, he said Prince and the Time are about the image, which is true, If Madonna is the queen of reinvention then Prince is the king. Im a hUGE fan of Prince culture and I can say truthfully that Prince changed his look and image more than madonna has. the proteges and their presentation, the stage sets the guitars hair styles shoes the fonts of the lyrics in the albums etc etc Prince is HUGE on image and fashion.

Michael Jackson from Bad onward is the one who didnt change his fashion much the look was mostly the same adding a few things each time. recreating video images for concerts etc

4 Prince its even down to the women he dates, right know many fans are questioning the whole Andy Allo thing, and if she is really playing guitar on these shows, no one can say Prince is more about the music, too me it hand in hand for Prince and

Oh please, stop stanning your clearly a Madonna stan. People have been objective and have called Madonna a Icon and relevant.

Now its time for you to be rational and unbiased.

These other foolish arguements are pathetic.

Of course Prince and MJ have marketed themselves and are admired for their fashion but that does not come FIRST in why they are legends like it does with Madonna PERIOD, end of discussion.

mjscarousal said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

correct, even Fargnoli when talking about creating Purple Rain the movie, he said Prince and the Time are about the image, which is true, If Madonna is the queen of reinvention then Prince is the king. Im a hUGE fan of Prince culture and I can say truthfully that Prince changed his look and image more than madonna has. the proteges and their presentation, the stage sets the guitars hair styles shoes the fonts of the lyrics in the albums etc etc Prince is HUGE on image and fashion.

Michael Jackson from Bad onward is the one who didnt change his fashion much the look was mostly the same adding a few things each time. recreating video images for concerts etc

4 Prince its even down to the women he dates, right know many fans are questioning the whole Andy Allo thing, and if she is really playing guitar on these shows, no one can say Prince is more about the music, too me it hand in hand for Prince and

Oh please, stop stanning your clearly a Madonna stan. People have been objective and have called Madonna a Icon and relevant.

Now its time for you to be rational and unbiased.

These other foolish arguements are pathetic.

Of course Prince and MJ have marketed themselves and are admired for their fashion but that does not come FIRST in why they are legends like it does with Madonna PERIOD, end of discussion.

we werent talking 2 U, so if the discussion is ended then you should stop talking

I am not biased as far as this discussion is going, I have all of Princes albums outtakes bsides internet releases, mp3 concerts and shows(mostly) not the same for Madonna, I like her hits(and particular album cuts) I like certain periods in her career, she puts on a hell of show and as a woman succeeding in times when it was hard for a woman to get to where she did I applaud her, I dont have her last 2 albums I have some songs, I have everything from Justify My Love(single rel)Erotica-Confessions Im looking at things more from pop culture not personal feeling of fandom

the discussion is again About relevance, which you obviously dont understand what that means

lets see if the discussion is ended

and Princes music is not what made him a legend because then most people who know his music beyond 1986, most people do know Madonnas music beyond 2006

this post reads like you dont know MJ or Prince history. go back to PRinceinPrint and read the articles and reviews, most focus on image gimmick and reinvention

again the discussion is not about music but relevancy as a Popular figure, I dont know why you dont seem to get it, did you read the article at all? Grays defination about relevancy was off by the his/her 1st point

you are not going to tell me Prince did not get attention for his image mostly which sometimes many questioned did it distract from the music. Seriously the 1st 2 albums werent all that great, compared to what followed, but Prince early on was pushing image and shock to get attention, now lets stop acting like Prince didnt need gimmicks and image in a big way

Madonna didnt start showing skin and do the whole Sex thing till the early 90s, she was fully dressed her 1980s career and if u can tell me 5 (gimmicks in her early career pre1990s)?

MJ was the only one that started out as a kid, and even they had the Jacksons cartoon and used every avenue to get visible(visible ... image) a time when pop culture wasnt so accessible

From Prince planning to be rude on the American Band stand performance the racial diversity of the band the look of the band, making out on stage with Gayle on the premiere of Head, the bikini briefs, jacking off the guitar, the guitar that skirted liquid when stroked, using the gun on the controversy tour...its said by many that the hypersex image wasnt even his idea, the Sex & God conflict, creating the alter egos and protege bands and pretending he had nothing to do with them Jamie Starr... (we had to do a lot of nude bike riding to get things stirred up...) the created competion with the Time, the inner post of Prince & Dez in the shower with the crucifix between them, the totally nude inner picture on the bed in 1999, the backwards messages, playing with W&L sexuality, trying to impress on us a lesbionic situation between Sheila E & Cat, ... I mean come on and most of that was in his rise to stardom, lets not mention the assless pants at the award show, the slave on the face, the name change

and guess what Madonna is still relevant, Prince is relevant & MJ is relevant and its not about the music.

Gray... said he/she felt relevancy was about #1 whether he liked the person (which that not it at all) people disliking someone can make a person relevant as well( just by the fact that the Catholic church monitors Madonna makes her relevant)

Gray...#2 was Does the person influence others music/image etc

But it goes beyond this, does Princes challenging and trying to make artists aware of the ownership of their music make him relevant? YES, does 20Ten and Lotusflower make Prince relevant? NO so albums that he doesnt even perform the music and never heard on the radio etc still is not what determines his relevancy as a Pop Figure

mjscarousal said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

But the Marketing was related to MUSIC hun What are you not understanding? Prince and MJ success/marketing etc was related THEIR MUSIC AND TALENT. Madonna on the other hand got attention MOSTLY for things non related to her music, and yes that is a difference. Those things makes her the Icon she is which is why Gray asked you the question with how does those things relate to music because it doesnt.

Of course Michael had marketing but he did not rely on gimmicks unlike Madonna who as ZEROE talent besides being a smart business woman and marketing genius.

I know MJ had trading cards, not Prince or Madonna, MJ marketed himself times 3

Prince was marketing just as much to get as big, just releasing an album saying he can play 10 instruments wasnt going to get him Purple Reign, where u see Prince fall of the scene is 1st lack of marketing and 1/2 the time bad image. What is most fans #1 reason Lovesexy didnt sell?

Madonna relied heavily on gimmicks and other marketing ploys that mostly and hardly had anything to do with music. All these examples are irrelevant.

I am not talking about Marketing in its literal sense. I am speaking on everything Madonna did and has done to market herself that has little to do with music and is mostly centered around image and pushes peoples buttons.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Tittypants said:

Didn't know she relevant anymore. I can't remember the last I've heard anybody in regular life playing anything new by her @ all.

if playing something new on certain radio makes one relevant then Prince hasnt been relevant since?

and if you mean anybody in regular life, as in people you know... I hardly think that can make someone relevant or not. Again, that is hardly the definition of relevance, there are a whole lot of people playing music by people they like... do that make the person relevant, No

a whole lot of 1 hit wonders who people are loving that 1 hit, it hardly makes them relevant

Can this PLEASE not be turned into something it doesn't have to be? Relevance is a matter of preference imo. I really don't find Madonna or Prince relevant to the general public to that degree anymore. But for those of us who follow them, it's a totally different story. That is all I'm going to say about this.

OldFriends4Sale said:

mjscarousal said:

Oh please, stop stanning your clearly a Madonna stan. People have been objective and have called Madonna a Icon and relevant.

Now its time for you to be rational and unbiased.

These other foolish arguements are pathetic.

Of course Prince and MJ have marketed themselves and are admired for their fashion but that does not come FIRST in why they are legends like it does with Madonna PERIOD, end of discussion.

we werent talking 2 U, so if the discussion is ended then you should stop talking

This is a message board it doesnt matter who starts talking to who. You made some ridiculous claims that wasnt true and I simply expressed that.

I am not biased as far as this discussion is going,

Yes you are.

ou have been very biased. The only point I brought up that I disagree with was the fact that Madonna is not seen as a music Icon like MJ and Prince is and she isnt...

I have all of Princes albums outtakes bsides internet releases, mp3 concerts and shows(mostly)

I find that very hard to believe being that you have argued that Prince has basically relied on gimmicks/controversy his entire career the same as Madonna. Prince is not nearly as popular as Madonna and has not rely on nearly as much marketing as Madonna has in order to stay relevant. Prince had/has REAL talent and although I never denied all three relied on marketing, Madonna out of the three relied on controversial antics and other things none related to music to get herself ahead. Its quite disrespectful that you would even compare Prince/MJ iconic status with Madonna. We get she is a Icon but she is a icon mostly for image/controversial antics and how she was marketed... not for her dancing, not for her singing and minium music.

not the same for Madonna, I like her hits(and particular album cuts) I like certain periods in her career, she puts on a hell of show and as a woman succeeding in times when it was hard for a woman to get to where she did I applaud her, I dont have her last 2 albums I have some songs, I have everything from Justify My Love(single rel)Erotica-Confessions Im looking at things more from pop culture not personal feeling of fandom

Whether your a stan or not you have been very biased in this discussion. I am not a big Madonna fan and can admit she is with out a dount Icon and very much relevant to POP culture. However, I am not manipulated by the bullshit She is a icon because of her genius marketing tactics which mostly was non related to music/her creative risks and her changing image. While she does have classics, that has little to do with why she is an Icon unlike Prince and MJ. She is not seen as a MUSICAL icon the same as MJ and Prince. NO she is not. Even people she has inspired has never said, " Oh I grew up trying to imitate Madonna or looking Madonna dance, or etc"

Its mostly... Oh I like Madonna's style, I like how Madonna reinvents her image.. mostly things that has NOTHING to do with music specfically.

the discussion is again About relevance, which you obviously dont understand what that means

lets see if the discussion is ended

Well it is obvious you do not know how to read because if you look 2 pages back one of the very first things I say is Madonna is relevant and is a Icon

But all this other extra fluff (stan talk shit) about her your saying is completely false and bagging MJ and Prince in the same category as her is really absurd because they all three had very different careers, contributed differet things and obviously have different levels of talent. Madonna has the 0 talent out of the bunch so yes she relied more heavily on extra things to distract from that.

and Princes music is not what made him a legend because then most people who know his music beyond 1986, most people do know Madonnas music beyond 2006

So when people call him a musical genius, cover his songs, compliment his instrumentation and songwriting, those things do not relate to music?

Also, Prince was not as popular as Madonna but that most certainly doesnt mean that people dont know he is a musical genius and a legend because of his music. Even if they only knew one song. They know he is a serious musician and he isnt "pop" unlike Madonna.

There are alot of great great music legends that are not POP. So are you saying Little Richard isnt a music legend either because some people might not be familiar with his music?

Very generic arguement.

OldFriends4Sale said:

this post reads like you dont know MJ or Prince history. go back to PRinceinPrint and read the articles and reviews, most focus on image gimmick and reinvention

Ive been a big MJ fan since I was 5 and a fan of Prince, I do not need a history lesson. You are biased and reading what you want into things. I am not sure if I am not being clear or you are not properly comprehending but ONCE AGAIN, never denied MJ or Prince did not rely on marketing but they had real talent which is why they have longevity. Madonna she has that as well but she had to do extra things to get it, mostly had nothing to do with her music .. Those things you are referring to mostly was associated with MJs and Prince music. Do you understand that???

again the discussion is not about music but relevancy as a Popular figure, I dont know why you dont seem to get it, did you read the article at all? Grays defination about relevancy was off by the his/her 1st point

Are you reading the posts

I already commented on the relevant part and even agreed with that portion of your post but you made other claims that I disagreed so I expressed that. It does not have to specfically relate to the article or thread topic. You made claims that were false and I expressed that simple as that.

you are not going to tell me Prince did not get attention for his image mostly which sometimes many questioned did it distract from the music. Seriously the 1st 2 albums werent all that great, compared to what followed, but Prince early on was pushing image and shock to get attention, now lets stop acting like Prince didnt need gimmicks and image in a big way

Most of those stage antics were associated with music? Prince is definitly no angel but Prince was not saling a sex book either Prince was not saying things to get under peoples skin like Madonna (non related to music). Thats the only thing I am trying to get you to comprehend

Madonna didnt start showing skin and do the whole Sex thing till the early 90s, she was fully dressed her 1980s career and if u can tell me 5 (gimmicks in her early career pre1990s)?

The fact of the matter is, Madonna relied on those things to stay relevant, period. And my main point was she is not considered a musical Icon although she a Icon. She is mostly admired for her reinvention of image and other crazy things she did non related to music.

MJ was the only one that started out as a kid, and even they had the Jacksons cartoon and used every avenue to get visible(visible ... image) a time when pop culture wasnt so accessible

That is completely different and has nothing to do with (solo) MJ. Why would you even use that as a example?

From Prince planning to be rude on the American Band stand performance the racial diversity of the band the look of the band, making out on stage with Gayle on the premiere of Head, the bikini briefs, jacking off the guitar, the guitar that skirted liquid when stroked, using the gun on the controversy tour...its said by many that the hypersex image wasnt even his idea, the Sex & God conflict, creating the alter egos and protege bands and pretending he had nothing to do with them Jamie Starr... (we had to do a lot of nude bike riding to get things stirred up...) the created competion with the Time, the inner post of Prince & Dez in the shower with the crucifix between them, the totally nude inner picture on the bed in 1999, the backwards messages, playing with W&L sexuality, trying to impress on us a lesbionic situation between Sheila E & Cat, ... I mean come on and most of that was in his rise to stardom, lets not mention the assless pants at the award show, the slave on the face, the name chang

But at the end of the day Prince HAS TALENT Madonna DOES NOT Which is why I do not think Prince and Madonna should ever be compared. Prince has contributed alot more MUSICALLY than she has period.

and guess what Madonna is still relevant, Prince is relevant & MJ is relevant and its not about the music.

How so?

Because over the last three years MJs music has been clock work on the radio stations, he has released an album, a special edition album and a box set, a music documentary on a album and a documentary on a tour he was working on. On those things relate to music.

Prince is relevant through who he has inspired and alot of current artists site him as a influence and you can hear it in their music. Madonna is relevant mostly through who she has inspired as well which mainly are artists who ironically have 0 talent like herself that rely mostly on their image for success.

Gray... said he/she felt relevancy was about #1 whether he liked the person (which that not it at all) people disliking someone can make a person relevant as well( just by the fact that the Catholic church monitors Madonna makes her relevant)

People have their own opinion and have a right to feel how they want. Just because Madonna may be relevant to you, it might not be the case for someone else.

Most mainstream artists I do not listen and dont like, I guess there not relevant to me as well although I understand they are currently relevant to mainstream

Gray...#2 was Does the person influence others music/image etc

Gray said she is mostly seen as important through her image more so than her music and that IS true.

But it goes beyond this, does Princes challenging and trying to make artists aware of the ownership of their music make him relevant? YES, does 20Ten and Lotusflower make Prince relevant? NO so albums that he doesnt even perform the music and never heard on the radio etc still is not what determines his relevancy as a Pop Figure

But that still relates to music and served a good purpose in the long run. He was making a stand for himself. I highly doubt he would risk loosing money and other things just because he was looking for attention. Making a stand and intentionally going out of your want to shock people are different things...

never..i.e. this thread..