IanRG said:

RODSERLING said:

IanRG said:

Consequently she was thrown off the team? Not one of the WATW Team was in WMCIG "All Stars". Did they all blow it?

This latter song is irrelevant. It was an unrelated, unsuccessful and not officially released song that MJ spent 9 years considering which of several causes he could it for to show he supports.

That was a joke. The song was unsucessful because it wasn't released. That's all. Had it been released physically ( at the time no download, no streaming), WMCIG would have been a huge success, with only MJ and Celine Dion fans all over the world.

yes, completely agree. It may be a cheesy song but on the fan power alone it would have been huge.

RODSERLING said:

IanRG said:

Consequently she was thrown off the team? Not one of the WATW Team was in WMCIG "All Stars". Did they all blow it?

This latter song is irrelevant. It was an unrelated, unsuccessful and not officially released song that MJ spent 9 years considering which of several causes he could it for to show he supports.

That was a joke. The song was unsucessful because it wasn't released. That's all. Had it been released physically ( at the time no download, no streaming), WMCIG would have been a huge success, with only MJ and Celine Dion fans all over the world.

No, you were not joking.

No, it was released as pay for download and it failed to be huge. It was not considered good enough to be released as a physical single.

No MJ disagrees with you multiple times:

1 He never thought it was good enough in its original form for Rodney King - It was not released then.

2 It was pulled fron Invincible and from live concert set lists as not good enough.

3 It was never released for Kosovo refugees.

4 It was performed abymally at the end of the 9/11 concert with a different "super group" and was pulled from the TV broadcast.

5 When the song was played on radio and the video was played on TV, it did not create sufficent interest to encourage its release.

purplethunder3121 said:

Nobody cares about that either.

Do you care about Rick Astley though?

IanRG said:

TrivialPursuit said:

RODSERLING said:

IanRG said:

No, you were not joking.

No, it was released as pay for download and it failed to be huge. It was not considered good enough to be released as a physical single.

No MJ disagrees with you multiple times:

1 He never thought it was good enough in its original form for Rodney King - It was not released then.

2 It was pulled fron Invincible and from live concert set lists as not good enough.

3 It was never released for Kosovo refugees.

4 It was performed abymally at the end of the 9/11 concert with a different "super group" and was pulled from the TV broadcast.

5 When the song was played on radio and the video was played on TV, it did not create sufficent interest to encourage its release.

I was joking. For sure MJ wrote that song well before 9/11. That's why he was able in such a short time to propose that song. But still, it was a prowess, knowing how bad he was at the time, I mean he didn't even promote his own tracks from Invincible at all, to reunite such great "stars", in both english and spanish version ( especially in spanish version, where he even got Santana !). At the time there was no streaming, no downloads ( that shit became significant only from 2004), the only way to sell that song was on physical single. For many reasons, including the fact that Sony couldn't do any money from it, it wasn't released.Had it been, it would have been a smash hit Worldwide, even, as Joris said, if it was a cheesy song. I do think melodically the song is great though. And MJ is clearly more involved in it than most of the songs from Invincible.

You are going in circles once more - calling out someone for blowing what you consider to be the chance of life time is NOT a joke. It is just vindictive and cruel.

You keep missing the point - The song WAS sold as a download and it failed - It failed nearly as badly as it failed in the 9/11 concert live performance and as a video for play on TV.

P.S. It did not reunite any stars - There were no crossovers from WATW to this song. Worse than that, the people in the two versions were segregated so more than two thirds were only in one of the versions.

[Edited 2/20/24 0:01am]

MickyDolenz said:

purplethunder3121 said:

Nobody cares about that either.

Do you care about Rick Astley though?

I am never gonna give him up.

IanRG said:

FrankieCoco1 said:

RODSERLING said:

Lol write something like Heal The World. Just do it. Do it better. Let us all laugh. That song would have been #1 Worldwide, as a 6th single, if Whiney Houston I Will Always Love You had never existed. That says a lot. You also forgot Always Be Not Always from the Victory album. Had that song bd released at the time it would have been a hit. So that shit didn't date back from We Are The World. Even Can You Feel It is a kind of a humanitarian song, if you think about it.

Let me step down from the curb to address this:

I didn't forget "Be Not Always." I quite love that song and album, but it's a Jacksons song or he would've saved it for himself. Yes "Can You Feel It" is a feel-good song, but it's not the same and you know it. You have zero hint as to whether "Be Not Always" would've hit the same as "Man in the Mirror" but it would've tried as hard as "Heal The World" and failed.

"Man in the Mirror" had everything it needed to be a hit. A message, a hook, it's anthemic, a choir, a key change. Only "Keep The Faith" (which should've been the big push) came close - very close.

It's apples and onions because "Be Not Always" was years before. I never said he couldn't write a humanitarian song, okay? You never read that. What you did read is that I said he could never quite reach the heights of "Man in the Mirror" - at least not by himself. His constant retread of that song in stuff like "Heal the World," "What More Can I Give" etc shows he lacked the conduit channeling his desire to help with the ability to write a song with which to do that.

[Edited 2/20/24 10:57am]

RODSERLING said:

IanRG said:

You are going in circles once more - calling out someone for blowing what you consider to be the chance of life time is NOT a joke. It is just vindictive and cruel.

You keep missing the point - The song WAS sold as a download and it failed - It failed nearly as badly as it failed in the 9/11 concert live performance and as a video for play on TV.

P.S. It did not reunite any stars - There were no crossovers from WATW to this song. Worse than that, the people in the two versions were segregated so more than two thirds were only in one of the versions.

[Edited 2/20/24 0:01am]

It was sold as a download two years after the event ( 10/27/2003) without any form of publicity! The momentum was gone, the project was dead and anachronistic At the time the download format was inexistant. Nielsen Soundscan began tracking sales in november 2004 only. The first song to reach 1 millions download was Hollaback Girl from Gwen Stefani in december of 2005. So that song had no chance to reach his audience back then. It needed to be released in november of 2001, as a physical release, and that's all. In 2001, You Rock My World sold 1 million copies worldwide without even being released in the USA, without even a b-side of some sort. So the CD single was still something at the time.

So to conclude:

To the only part that had anything to do with Prince, being that Sheila E was only promised a solo in WATW just to get Prince there, and it was quite likely that, even if she succeeded, she would still not have been granted that promised solo, you have nothing to more to say.

The rest of the above is just you imagining that a non-Prince song that MJ had been consistently withdrawing as never good enough to release since it was "Heal L.A" could have been huge if things that never happened, instead happened. It failed when sung for 9/11, MJ had no confidence or real interest in it when it was made avaiable as a download and no interest in it when the video was released. This is just a case of shoulda, woulda, coulda but was never gonna and off topic.

To bring this back to Prince: Shelia E did not blow her chances by failing to get Prince in WATW, she was just being used by MJ and Quincy in their silly games and she never suffered in any way at all by not being part of a failed MJ song that had no other people in it who did WATW.

[Edited 2/20/24 12:03pm]

TrivialPursuit said:

Sheila E... I mean, WTF, she really had to say that?

That she was dissapointed for not being able to sing one line?

I mean why did they ask her for this documentary anyway?

She litterealy was just a side note to get Prince.

And why wasn't ther a bit of info about the making/collection of that album?

Could've been worth more Prince related info tbh.

-

Love the documentary.

Love the Bob dylan thing going on,

The Springsteen thing,

Hell, Lionel was amazing...

Quincy too,

Stevie... wtf? )))

MJ wtf?

And drunk Jarreau

Huey was pretty ok, so was Lauper,

The practicing parts at the piano were amazing!

All by all a pretty good coumentary.

And indeed stupid to use Prince's pic from 1988...

Vannormal said:

Sheila E... I mean, WTF, she really had to say that?

That she was dissapointed for not being able to sing one line?

I mean why did they ask her for this documentary anyway?

She litterealy was just a side note to get Prince.

And why wasn't ther a bit of info about the making/collection of that album?

Could've been worth more Prince related info tbh.

-

Love the documentary.

Love the Bob dylan thing going on,

The Springsteen thing,

Hell, Lionel was amazing...

Quincy too,

Stevie... wtf? )))

MJ wtf?

And drunk Jarreau

Huey was pretty ok, so was Lauper,

The practicing parts at the piano were amazing!

All by all a pretty good coumentary.

And indeed stupid to use Prince's pic from 1988...

lol, the irony is is that she again was just asked (this time for the docu) because of her connection to Prince (like with WATW)

Vannormal said:

Sheila E... I mean, WTF, she really had to say that?

That she was dissapointed for not being able to sing one line?

I mean why did they ask her for this documentary anyway?

She litterealy was just a side note to get Prince.

And why wasn't ther a bit of info about the making/collection of that album?

Could've been worth more Prince related info tbh.

-

Love the documentary.

Love the Bob dylan thing going on,

The Springsteen thing,

Hell, Lionel was amazing...

Quincy too,

Stevie... wtf? )))

MJ wtf?

And drunk Jarreau

Huey was pretty ok, so was Lauper,

The practicing parts at the piano were amazing!

All by all a pretty good coumentary.

And indeed stupid to use Prince's pic from 1988...

Seriously? What else was she going to say? And why would they not ask her?

You literally show you understand why she was there, what her role was in MJs and Quincy's eyes, why she was promised, and why she ended up with no line when you said "She literally was just a side note to get Prince".

Did you want just a sugar-coated doco with no more depth than the leave your egos behind note at the door?

Okay you two calm down.

Let's re-frame this so we have perspective on this. It's not about that she really thought she was promised something.

Sheila's under the constant delusion that she's Prince's body double and talent double; that she's the spokesperson for all things Prince, as if no one at any other time had any interaction with him on the level she did. She believes she's the heir-apparent for carrying on his legacy. She's plastered his symbol everywhere, including her body all of a sudden.

It's her delusion that made her think walking into WATW session and thought "The Glamorous Life" was going to get her a spot singing anything outside of the chorus. I don't believe she was told she'd have a single. I repeat: no one "promised" her that. Not one goddamn person, including Quincy who knew exactly what he was doing - he's a pro. She was never in that running and she knows it. She doesn't want us to know that. She wants us to believe she was - again - Prince Lite™ and was a stand-in for him. Clearly she wasn't.

So if she was disappointed, it's on her, no one else. Everyone in that room, except LaToya Jackson, was arguably bigger than her. Even Cyndi Lauper had a shitload more of gold and platinum singles than Sheila did by that point.

She's also delusional to think she was invited for any other reason than they wanted her standing next to Prince in the chorus. Like all the Jacksons huddled together, MJ & Diana Ross and Stevie. There were purposeful visuals there, and if Prince were to stand by her, the whole chorus would've been book-ended by MJ and Prince. That's what they wanted. Was Sheila a stand-in? Yep. She was a place-marker. A seat filler.

She's only a victim in her own mind. She makes all these things about her instead of letting the larger picture tell its own story. It's not that Prince died, it's that he proposed to her twice. It's not that he refused to do business with her or otherwise speak with her in the last 5 or 6 years of his life, it was that she "has decided she will be no longer playing with Prince."

TrivialPursuit said:

Okay you two calm down.

Let's re-frame this so we have perspective on this. It's not about that she really thought she was promised something.

Sheila's under the constant delusion that she's Prince's body double and talent double; that she's the spokesperson for all things Prince, as if no one at any other time had any interaction with him on the level she did. She believes she's the heir-apparent for carrying on his legacy. She's plastered his symbol everywhere, including her body all of a sudden.

It's her delusion that made her think walking into WATW session and thought "The Glamorous Life" was going to get her a spot singing anything outside of the chorus. I don't believe she was told she'd have a single. I repeat: no one "promised" her that. Not one goddamn person, including Quincy who knew exactly what he was doing - he's a pro. She was never in that running and she knows it. She doesn't want us to know that. She wants us to believe she was - again - Prince Lite™ and was a stand-in for him. Clearly she wasn't.

So if she was disappointed, it's on her, no one else. Everyone in that room, except LaToya Jackson, was arguably bigger than her. Even Cyndi Lauper had a shitload more of gold and platinum singles than Sheila did by that point.

She's also delusional to think she was invited for any other reason than they wanted her standing next to Prince in the chorus. Like all the Jacksons huddled together, MJ & Diana Ross and Stevie. There were purposeful visuals there, and if Prince were to stand by her, the whole chorus would've been book-ended by MJ and Prince. That's what they wanted. Was Sheila a stand-in? Yep. She was a place-marker. A seat filler.

She's only a victim in her own mind. She makes all these things about her instead of letting the larger picture tell its own story. It's not that Prince died, it's that he proposed to her twice. It's not that he refused to do business with her or otherwise speak with her in the last 5 or 6 years of his life, it was that she "has decided she will be no longer playing with Prince."

Calm down. It really does not matter if you think she was never promised anything, you were not there.

Sure she was deluding herself but you don't know and cannot know that was all on her. Perhaps she was told if you get Prince here you can get a phrase or a line or even just that we can then talk about something. Regardless, I think we all agree that even if she did succeed in gtting Prince there, she would have likely still been denied a line. If it was dangled a carrot, then this gameplay by MJ and Quncy is a cold thing for friends to do to friends.

I get that she has dressed up things since Prince's death. The thing is we know the other side. Can you show anything shows that others refute Sheila Es comments?

IanRG said:

Calm down. It really does not matter if you think she was never promised anything, you were not there.

Sure she was deluding herself but you don't know and cannot know that was all on her. Perhaps she was told if you get Prince here you can get a phrase or a line or even just that we can then talk about something. Regardless, I think we all agree that even if she did succeed in getting Prince there, she would have likely still been denied a line. If it was dangled a carrot, then this gameplay by MJ and Quncy is a cold thing for friends to do to friends.

I get that she has dressed up things since Prince's death. The thing is we know the other side. Can you show anything shows that others refute Sheila Es comments?

Ian, I'm good, bro. My comments weren't to school you or whoever you were in it with. It's just a larger opinion about the topic at hand, that's all.

Obviously I feel a certain way about Sheila, and I was just voicing that, that's all. I believe she lies and bends things to her advantage. I agree with most of what you said. We do know the other side, so that's why I keep speaking that truth when it fits.

And we don't have to prove Sheila's case, ya know? She made the claim, let someone back her up. I've yet to see that. I can only work with her history and past statements. The best predictor of future behavior is relevant and recent past behavior.

[Edited 2/21/24 13:20pm]

TrivialPursuit said:

IanRG said:

Calm down. It really does not matter if you think she was never promised anything, you were not there.

Sure she was deluding herself but you don't know and cannot know that was all on her. Perhaps she was told if you get Prince here you can get a phrase or a line or even just that we can then talk about something. Regardless, I think we all agree that even if she did succeed in getting Prince there, she would have likely still been denied a line. If it was dangled a carrot, then this gameplay by MJ and Quncy is a cold thing for friends to do to friends.

I get that she has dressed up things since Prince's death. The thing is we know the other side. Can you show anything shows that others refute Sheila Es comments?

Ian, I'm good, bro. My comments weren't to school you or whoever you were in it with. It's just a larger opinion about the topic at hand, that's all.

Obviously I feel a certain way about Sheila, and I was just voicing that, that's all. I believe she lies and bends things to her advantage. I agree with most of what you said. We do know the other side, so that's why I keep speaking that truth when it fits.

And we don't have to prove Sheila's case, ya know? She made the claim, let someone back her up. I've yet to see that. I can only work with her history and past statements. The best predictor of future behavior is relevant and recent past behavior.

Her statements are not new to the doco and have not been disputed by people who were there.

The problem is we can all only work with a small subset of the facts and most of that is tainted by, shall we say, the selective memories of people promoting themsleves or which one of the pair they worked for. It can be equally said that the history of the relationship between Prince, MJ and Quincy is littered with power games, and acts of rivalry that were at times less than friendly by all three.

IanRG said:

TrivialPursuit said:

Okay you two calm down.

Let's re-frame this so we have perspective on this. It's not about that she really thought she was promised something.

Sheila's under the constant delusion that she's Prince's body double and talent double; that she's the spokesperson for all things Prince, as if no one at any other time had any interaction with him on the level she did. She believes she's the heir-apparent for carrying on his legacy. She's plastered his symbol everywhere, including her body all of a sudden.

It's her delusion that made her think walking into WATW session and thought "The Glamorous Life" was going to get her a spot singing anything outside of the chorus. I don't believe she was told she'd have a single. I repeat: no one "promised" her that. Not one goddamn person, including Quincy who knew exactly what he was doing - he's a pro. She was never in that running and she knows it. She doesn't want us to know that. She wants us to believe she was - again - Prince Lite™ and was a stand-in for him. Clearly she wasn't.

So if she was disappointed, it's on her, no one else. Everyone in that room, except LaToya Jackson, was arguably bigger than her. Even Cyndi Lauper had a shitload more of gold and platinum singles than Sheila did by that point.

She's also delusional to think she was invited for any other reason than they wanted her standing next to Prince in the chorus. Like all the Jacksons huddled together, MJ & Diana Ross and Stevie. There were purposeful visuals there, and if Prince were to stand by her, the whole chorus would've been book-ended by MJ and Prince. That's what they wanted. Was Sheila a stand-in? Yep. She was a place-marker. A seat filler.

She's only a victim in her own mind. She makes all these things about her instead of letting the larger picture tell its own story. It's not that Prince died, it's that he proposed to her twice. It's not that he refused to do business with her or otherwise speak with her in the last 5 or 6 years of his life, it was that she "has decided she will be no longer playing with Prince."

Totally agree about Sheila

[Edited 2/21/24 17:15pm]

TrivialPursuit said:

Okay you two calm down.

Let's re-frame this so we have perspective on this. It's not about that she really thought she was promised something.

Sheila's under the constant delusion that she's Prince's body double and talent double; that she's the spokesperson for all things Prince, as if no one at any other time had any interaction with him on the level she did. She believes she's the heir-apparent for carrying on his legacy. She's plastered his symbol everywhere, including her body all of a sudden.

It's her delusion that made her think walking into WATW session and thought "The Glamorous Life" was going to get her a spot singing anything outside of the chorus. I don't believe she was told she'd have a single. I repeat: no one "promised" her that. Not one goddamn person, including Quincy who knew exactly what he was doing - he's a pro. She was never in that running and she knows it. She doesn't want us to know that. She wants us to believe she was - again - Prince Lite™ and was a stand-in for him. Clearly she wasn't.

So if she was disappointed, it's on her, no one else. Everyone in that room, except LaToya Jackson, was arguably bigger than her. Even Cyndi Lauper had a shitload more of gold and platinum singles than Sheila did by that point.

She's also delusional to think she was invited for any other reason than they wanted her standing next to Prince in the chorus. Like all the Jacksons huddled together, MJ & Diana Ross and Stevie. There were purposeful visuals there, and if Prince were to stand by her, the whole chorus would've been book-ended by MJ and Prince. That's what they wanted. Was Sheila a stand-in? Yep. She was a place-marker. A seat filler.

She's only a victim in her own mind. She makes all these things about her instead of letting the larger picture tell its own story. It's not that Prince died, it's that he proposed to her twice. It's not that he refused to do business with her or otherwise speak with her in the last 5 or 6 years of his life, it was that she "has decided she will be no longer playing with Prince."

I do agree that she was almost certainly used to woo Prince there, but we don't know what Lionel promised her.

There's a familial connection with those families (Nicole Ritchie is really an Escovedo) . . . he might've hinted at a potential solo verse . . . perhaps if there were a bunch of no-shows?

But as we know, there weren't many (if any, other than Prince?) no-shows. The place was packed with A-listers.