TheEmperorofFunk said:

BartVanHemelen said:

His impact is not that big. Sly Stone is an innovator who changed music. Prince? Magnificent artist who did wonderful things in the 1980s and then wasted his talent on mediocre tripe. Too busy surrounding him with yes men to actually follow through on his gift.

TRC was an unbelievable jazz album

It's not a jazz album. Not in a million years.

Prince couldn't play real jazz to save his life. He can't even read music.

But if there's horns on a Prince album, then it's jazz to the org. Not only jazz, but the greatest jazz ever laid to tape.

Sorry boo boo contrary to popular believe Prince can read music notes & very well....

When did he learn?

Elvis is a greater innovator than Prince?

Perhaps "innovator" is being used as a code word for copycat.

Elvis didn't even write his own music. He stole from many. He played two instruments and neither so masterfully that he'll ever be praised for instrumentation.

Re:Chaka, how can a remake of a song be better than the original song. Without the original, there's no remake. Creatively speaking an original created from nothing is better than flourishes added to someone else's output. That reminds me of when someone tried to tell me the Foo Fighters' "Darling Nikki" was better than Prince's. Yeah? Come up with that shit from scratch.

Now, I love instigators, unlike most people. They are entertaining to me, but I expect better provocation than these posts.

I mean really, using record sales to compare artists? As if pandering to the public and being in lockstep with the public is the measure of artistry....

TheDigitalGardener said:

TheEmperorofFunk said:

TRC was an unbelievable jazz album

It's not a jazz album. Not in a million years.

I love comments like these. Someone says something, then someone says "no it's not"...well that is sooo helpful I'm leaning forward in interest to know how would you categorize the album? Please share your great wisdom with me oh wise one

Wall said:

Prince couldn't play real jazz to save his life. He can't even read music.

But if there's horns on a Prince album, then it's jazz to the org. Not only jazz, but the greatest jazz ever laid to tape.

I'm honestly not being sarcastic, but tell me how do you define "real Jazz"? Just wondering is all.

Wall said:

Prince couldn't play real jazz to save his life. He can't even read music.

But if there's horns on a Prince album, then it's jazz to the org. Not only jazz, but the greatest jazz ever laid to tape.

Lol...phuck jazz.

vinx98 said:

s is

WonderU said:

I love the song. It makes me happy when I listen to it. The lyrics are positive and it just flows so well. I listen to it A LOT and like it more each time. Oddly, I didn't come to the Org first to see what others thought of it, kind of like how Prince's music used to be so much more personal and enjoyable BEFORE having to hear so many fucking opinions about it.

this is a forum what did you expect, no opinions? general consensus?

No shit I realize it's a forum, the point that you missed is there was once life without the Org and so many fans rush here and have and form an opinion about a new song before they even get to here it!

Exactly ! I agree with Bart.

If you're able to keep a certain distance from Prince's music (as a fan), and are able to broaden your mind with other music, different styles, a wide nterest in musical history, the whole industry connected to it... and all that versus artistry and innovation, one has to state that Prince did not change music that much as an innovator or writer. The fact that he tried to do it all by himself, that was an influence to many contemporary artists. But not many succeeded, not even Prince.

One thing he certainly did was changing the 'sound' of music after his popular 1983-1984 sound. Most funk, soul and r'nb music after that tried to have that Minneapolis sound and feel...

BartVanHemelen said:

TheEmperorofFunk said:

His point was mainly that alot of albums Prince has put out would have been commercially successful at a much higher rate if someone else had done it. And that I beleive to be true. You can even see it in much of his earlier work in the late 70s and all through the 80s. Since no artist has done a cover of a Prince album (haha) the only examples i can give are songs like "I feel for you." the track only charted in France when Prince released it...Chaka Khan got ahold of it, and BOOM its not only her highest and most successful charting song for her personally, but it charts #1 in the UK for 18 weeks and #1 in Canada for 10 weeks #3 in the US for 25 Weeks and its a top 10 hit in Sweden, Switzerland, and Belium.

Chaka's version is a superior slice of infectious pop music, infused with electro and hip-hop. Back then it sounded like it had been beamed back from the future. Prince's original? Not that good, actually.

Fine, then take James Brown or Jimi Hendrix. Or George Clinton. Plenty of people were making Prince-like music before Prince came along *cough* Rick James *cough*, and that's simply because they'd been listening to the same music Prince had. I seriously think that Prince's music is not revolutionary; he is not an innovator.

And I'm sorry, but he is nowhere near Beatles or Elvis. Those guys sold (and still sell) truckloads of records; Prince not so much. Post-Purple Rain, his only album that sold 5+ million was D&P, which was arguably a record designed to generate hits. And then he still needed to tour it all over the world for nearly a year. (Which is why him signing the infamous $100 million contract just does not make sense, and can only be explained as him utterly ignoring the advice of his close associates and going on a massive ego trip.)

Also you said his impact IS (present tense) not that big, but mattcmbr was saying exactly that also, which is why he said "I don't believe his impact will truly be felt or appreciated until after he's gone...and that's a shame."

I'm sorry, but if his influence isn't clear two decades after his heyday, when will it be? He is an enormously talented man, but what did he change in music? Prince produced some bafflingly original pop records in the 1980s, but it's not like he did not have any competition.

Vannormal said:

Exactly ! I agree with Bart.

If you're able to keep a certain distance from Prince's music (as a fan), and are able to broaden your mind with other music, different styles, a wide nterest in musical history, the whole industry connected to it... and all that versus artistry and innovation, one has to state that Prince did not change music that much as an innovator or writer. The fact that he tried to do it all by himself, that was an influence to many contemporary artists. But not many succeeded, not even Prince.

One thing he certainly did was changing the 'sound' of music after his popular 1983-1984 sound. Most funk, soul and r'nb music after that tried to have that Minneapolis sound and feel...

Then he changed music....................

Wall said:

Prince couldn't play real jazz to save his life. He can't even read music.

But if there's horns on a Prince album, then it's jazz to the org. Not only jazz, but the greatest jazz ever laid to tape.

how is that even remotely relevant. It's like saying Beethoven couldn't write real classical music, he can't even hear.

WonderU said:

vinx98 said:

s is

this is a forum what did you expect, no opinions? general consensus?

No shit I realize it's a forum, the point that you missed is there was once life without the Org and so many fans rush here and have and form an opinion about a new song before they even get to here it!

its because theres not many other places for Prince fans to voice their discontent on the latest rubbish music coming out, im sure if the music was awesome the forums would be quiet and we'de all be too busy listening to the music.

vinx98 said:

WonderU said:

No shit I realize it's a forum, the point that you missed is there was once life without the Org and so many fans rush here and have and form an opinion about a new song before they even get to here it!

its because theres not many other places for Prince fans to voice their discontent on the latest rubbish music coming out, im sure if the music was awesome the forums would be quiet and we'de all be too busy listening to the music.

I'm sure even back in the day some of these folks would have found something to complain about

WonderU said:

vinx98 said:

its because theres not many other places for Prince fans to voice their discontent on the latest rubbish music coming out, im sure if the music was awesome the forums would be quiet and we'de all be too busy listening to the music.

I'm sure even back in the day some of these folks would have found something to complain about

I have been on Prince boards since before the WB fued, the content of Bart's posts have been consistent the whole time. It's quite amazing the dedication he has to keep posting about something he apparently dislikes so strongly.

Damned ...i just WANT THIS!!!

http://nullrefer.com/?htt...ond-coming

I think the problem people have with Bart is that sometimes the truth hurts and they don't like it. I don't agree with most everything he says but he raises some very valid points and criticism now and then. Not sure if and why he ever liked Prince but again some valid points are raised.

With that said I still wonder what people expect out of Prince. What will that perfect song be for them? I admit some of the newer stuff don't live up to Prince standards. But I still enjoy most every song he does. Some grow on me after a few listens and are actually pretty damn good songs. Some I honestly can't tolerate more than once. They are still far from the complete crap people make it out to be. RNR Affair is not his best work but seriously to call it crap is overboard. It's an easy listen that has a catchy lead line.

Did he raise the bar too high for himself? He's gone on record saying he could never make another Purple Rain. He made that statement to come across as saying he didn't want to copy himself again but I believe he knows he will never top it's success.

I see an aged, somewhat mature (lol) musician that isn't trying to prove anything anymore. He just enjoys playing and that's enough for him now. I think those days of multilayer-ed tracks with a funky drum machine beat are old for Prince. Also he's going out of his way to prove a point about "real" music. So he's trying to sound like an old 60's and 70's artist and distance himself from any electronic sounds. Problem is that most of his fans know why that but really don't care. The non fans obviously don't care either. So what's the point of trying to prove a point when nobody's listening? Many of us were drawn to Prince because of that funky electric sound. So when he throws MPLS out there with the Linn trying to relive that older sound people here still dogged it and despised it. So again I wonder what people want or expect. I really doubt anything could make them happy. I think people would've thought some of his later work would be awesome if those same songs were released 20-25 years ago. Spin that around and some of what some of us consider gems from the 80's would get trashed on this board today. I truly believe that.

For me I have more of a problem with the lyrics than I do the music in his newer stuff. I'm ok with no cursing but there's too much cheese. Take the new version of Extralovable for example. I think the lyric changes in it suck. Could've done better than that imo. Then again look at some of the lyrics to some of his 80's songs and they're pretty ridiculous themselves. Once again I really see two sides to it.

Prince recently mentioned how albums are out and singles are the thing again today. That's why I don't expect a full album anytime soon. Problem is who's gonna play them singles or buy them if he's so anti-internet?

Lastly I'm going to beat the dead horse that is Larry Graham. Nothing has been the same with Prince since he hooked up and was lured under Larry's control. Larry seems like a real cool cat and I love some of the old Sly stuff but I can't stand him. I didn't feel that way about him until he and Prince hooked up. Sad but true.

As far a categorizing a Prince album as jazz, funk, pop, r&b, rock or whatever, good luck on that. Can you really put a finger on most of his albums and say they fit any of those categories? I personally cannot. Hornz don't make it jazz and distorted guitar don't make it rock. I just call it Prince music.

love2thenines2003 said:

Damned ...i just WANT THIS!!!

http://nullrefer.com/?htt...ond-coming

Wow his eyes look toasted. He was either super tired or super high. LOL

SmiggyG said:

I think the problem people have with Bart is that sometimes the truth hurts and they don't like it. I don't agree with most everything he says but he raises some very valid points and criticism now and then. Not sure if and why he ever liked Prince but again some valid points are raised.

With that said I still wonder what people expect out of Prince. What will that perfect song be for them? I admit some of the newer stuff don't live up to Prince standards. But I still enjoy most every song he does. Some grow on me after a few listens and are actually pretty damn good songs. Some I honestly can't tolerate more than once. They are still far from the complete crap people make it out to be. RNR Affair is not his best work but seriously to call it crap is overboard. It's an easy listen that has a catchy lead line.

Did he raise the bar too high for himself? He's gone on record saying he could never make another Purple Rain. He made that statement to come across as saying he didn't want to copy himself again but I believe he knows he will never top it's success.

I see an aged, somewhat mature (lol) musician that isn't trying to prove anything anymore. He just enjoys playing and that's enough for him now. I think those days of multilayer-ed tracks with a funky drum machine beat are old for Prince. Also he's going out of his way to prove a point about "real" music. So he's trying to sound like an old 60's and 70's artist and distance himself from any electronic sounds. Problem is that most of his fans know why that but really don't care. The non fans obviously don't care either. So what's the point of trying to prove a point when nobody's listening? Many of us were drawn to Prince because of that funky electric sound. So when he throws MPLS out there with the Linn trying to relive that older sound people here still dogged it and despised it. So again I wonder what people want or expect. I really doubt anything could make them happy. I think people would've thought some of his later work would be awesome if those same songs were released 20-25 years ago. Spin that around and some of what some of us consider gems from the 80's would get trashed on this board today. I truly believe that.

For me I have more of a problem with the lyrics than I do the music in his newer stuff. I'm ok with no cursing but there's too much cheese. Take the new version of Extralovable for example. I think the lyric changes in it suck. Could've done better than that imo. Then again look at some of the lyrics to some of his 80's songs and they're pretty ridiculous themselves. Once again I really see two sides to it.

Prince recently mentioned how albums are out and singles are the thing again today. That's why I don't expect a full album anytime soon. Problem is who's gonna play them singles or buy them if he's so anti-internet?

Lastly I'm going to beat the dead horse that is Larry Graham. Nothing has been the same with Prince since he hooked up and was lured under Larry's control. Larry seems like a real cool cat and I love some of the old Sly stuff but I can't stand him. I didn't feel that way about him until he and Prince hooked up. Sad but true.

As far a categorizing a Prince album as jazz, funk, pop, r&b, rock or whatever, good luck on that. Can you really put a finger on most of his albums and say they fit any of those categories? I personally cannot. Hornz don't make it jazz and distorted guitar don't make it rock. I just call it Prince music.

Although some of the things u say may have a point. I disagree with U & everyone else on Larry. Prince himself hinted that it was so much confusion & noise in his life before Larry came in it. That possibly he could have gone the same route as other well known entertainers that are no longer here. So actually Larry saved his life.

Prince lost both of his parents in a 6 month span . Not to mention losing two children a failed record contract & two failed marriages. That is a lot to go through. But no one here seems to care about that only themselves. Its sad but true. This site has the most meanest hate filled evil people on it...

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

Although some of the things u say may have a point. I disagree with U & everyone else on Larry. Prince himself hinted that it was so much confusion & noise in his life before Larry came in it. That possibly he could have gone the same route as other well known entertainers that are no longer here. So actually Larry saved his life.

On some level this is true.

Graycap23 said:

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

Although some of the things u say may have a point. I disagree with U & everyone else on Larry. Prince himself hinted that it was so much confusion & noise in his life before Larry came in it. That possibly he could have gone the same route as other well known entertainers that are no longer here. So actually Larry saved his life.

On some level this is true.

Yeah, I don't disagree with that. Just seemed like with all he had going on he was ripe for the taking.

SmiggyG said:

Graycap23 said:

On some level this is true.

Yeah, I don't disagree with that. Just seemed like with all he had going on he was ripe for the taking.

Yes.....and good old Larry swooped right in.

I think the problem people have with Bart is that sometimes the truth hurts and they don't like it. I don't agree with most everything he says but he raises some very valid points and criticism now and then. Not sure if and why he ever liked Prince but again some valid points are raised.

With that said I still wonder what people expect out of Prince. What will that perfect song be for them? I admit some of the newer stuff don't live up to Prince standards. But I still enjoy most every song he does. Some grow on me after a few listens and are actually pretty damn good songs. Some I honestly can't tolerate more than once. They are still far from the complete crap people make it out to be. RNR Affair is not his best work but seriously to call it crap is overboard. It's an easy listen that has a catchy lead line.

Did he raise the bar too high for himself? He's gone on record saying he could never make another Purple Rain. He made that statement to come across as saying he didn't want to copy himself again but I believe he knows he will never top it's success.

I see an aged, somewhat mature (lol) musician that isn't trying to prove anything anymore. He just enjoys playing and that's enough for him now. I think those days of multilayer-ed tracks with a funky drum machine beat are old for Prince. Also he's going out of his way to prove a point about "real" music. So he's trying to sound like an old 60's and 70's artist and distance himself from any electronic sounds. Problem is that most of his fans know why that but really don't care. The non fans obviously don't care either. So what's the point of trying to prove a point when nobody's listening? Many of us were drawn to Prince because of that funky electric sound. So when he throws MPLS out there with the Linn trying to relive that older sound people here still dogged it and despised it. So again I wonder what people want or expect. I really doubt anything could make them happy. I think people would've thought some of his later work would be awesome if those same songs were released 20-25 years ago. Spin that around and some of what some of us consider gems from the 80's would get trashed on this board today. I truly believe that.

For me I have more of a problem with the lyrics than I do the music in his newer stuff. I'm ok with no cursing but there's too much cheese. Take the new version of Extralovable for example. I think the lyric changes in it suck. Could've done better than that imo. Then again look at some of the lyrics to some of his 80's songs and they're pretty ridiculous themselves. Once again I really see two sides to it.

Prince recently mentioned how albums are out and singles are the thing again today. That's why I don't expect a full album anytime soon. Problem is who's gonna play them singles or buy them if he's so anti-internet?

Lastly I'm going to beat the dead horse that is Larry Graham. Nothing has been the same with Prince since he hooked up and was lured under Larry's control. Larry seems like a real cool cat and I love some of the old Sly stuff but I can't stand him. I didn't feel that way about him until he and Prince hooked up. Sad but true.

As far a categorizing a Prince album as jazz, funk, pop, r&b, rock or whatever, good luck on that. Can you really put a finger on most of his albums and say they fit any of those categories? I personally cannot. Hornz don't make it jazz and distorted guitar don't make it rock. I just call it Prince music.

It's is a good, sober post. Agree with all of it. Particularly agree with the uncategorizability of Prince music. It's just "Prince music." There is music by other artists that can sound like "Prince music" too, but it doesn't fit neatly under labels.

As for LG, I can't agree with "I can't stand him" because I don't have personal animosity /feelings toward him, but I get what you're saying. But as others pointed out, perhaps LG and JW were what Prince "needed" at that and this point in his life. All his personal issues, the craziness that was his life. But then, when it's not crazy anymore, and it's calm and normal, then maybe it's not Rock And Roll in all its glory anymore either. So the trade-off - we get Prince alive, but he's not as exciting anymore. ?? Hard to figure.

After re-reading my post I'll admit saying I can't stand Larry is pretty harsh. I be more accurate in saying I liked him better before he hooked up with Prince.

Bart, Bart, Bart...

First, I must agree with the earlier poster that it is truly amazing you find the time to visit message boards and post replies about an artist you appear to abhor. Well done. That being said...I have greatly respected your contributions to the communities over the years. And I have no problem whatsoever with well-written and thought-out criticism.

Now...

"1996"

You are correct...my bad. Thank you for correcting me by an entire year

"Nonsense" (regarding Emancipation)

You bring up good points regarding promotion, the death of his child (being a father now, I cannot even begin to process something like that), BBGW lead single, the collapse of EMI, etc. However, I still think that ANY other artist releasing that album would have gotten a completely different reaction. The sheer breadth of music and overall quality are still impressive. It's not even close to my favorite Prince album, but if someone else had released it I feel they would have received greater acclaim.

The best parallel I can draw is probably "The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill" in my book. I find nothing groundbreaking or even very original on that album, yet it won so many awards, sold millions, and made her "the next big thing."

And sure...we've all wanted Prince to make that "single disc" kiiller album for what seems like forever now. My point was the unfair standard he's held to....not that "Emancipation" was the best idea.

And of course he needs an editor...and has for a long time. My biggest disappointment with Prince over the years is that he refuses to truly "collaborate" with anyone other than himself. His talent in the hand of a great producer would be stunning...and so would any music that he made with another top-notch artist in a TRUE collaboration.

But alas...Prince has always (and will always) do exactly what he wants and nothing more. Not for anything or anyone.

"...pretentious clusterfuck" (regarding TRC)

I believe it's only pretentious due to the voice. Musically it's a fantastic album. Is it a true "jazz" album? No. But left on its own for interpretation without the "preaching," I think it could have been so much better. Someone way back during the whole "The Cross / The Christ" fiasco mentioned that changing the lyrics in that song gave it the "subtlety of a sledgehammer." I think the same can be said for TRC.

"His impact is not that big."

Sorry, but I just can't agree with that at all. He has impacted countless artists who are out there today recording and releasing music. The point I was really trying to make there was about his talents as a live musician. I believe it will be a LONG time before someone else comes around who can actually sing, play, and (historically) dance like Prince in concert. There are people who can do one (or even two) of those well, but not all three at his level. And let's not forget that not only is he singing it, playing it, and dancing to it...he also probably wrote it.

Full circle back to "RNR Love Affair"...by no means is it even a "very good" Prince song. But I do think it's better than most of "20Ten" and a lot of MPLSound (which was very much in the same "retro Prince" vein). The intended "theme" of my post was simply that we still expect so much of him that it's sometimes easy to dismiss a very solid effort as "filler" or "crap."

Wall said:

But if there's horns on a Prince album, then it's jazz to the org. Not only jazz, but the greatest jazz ever laid to tape.

Unless he says, "Maceo, can you blow?"

Then it's funk.

mattmcbr

I'm currently reading the Thorne book on Prince and I'm up to his discussion of the Madhouse era. I thought of yesterday's jazz conversation in this thread when I read this quote from Wendy Melvoin:

I still think that Prince isn't a be-bopper, he's not a cool jazz guy, he's not an avant-garde guy, he's certainly not a Coltrane guy. He's like more of a contemporary jazz guy, the kind of jazz that I always refer to as weather-channel music, the stuff you hear on the weather channel, really smooth, and he functions well in that enviornment, but I wouldn't put a fake book in front of Prince and say, "Can you go ahead and play 'Autumn Leaves' for me?"

... with the recent LIVE renditions of this and that song I cannot help but think that if P had 10 or 12 of em they'd make a nice LIVE album for before 2012 came to an end.