Tackam

Excuse me!? no, you didn't say anything bad about me, but you basically said my husband wasn't "good people" because he's a hunter. Well, You don't know "good people" then. My husband is one of the kindest most helpful people you would ever have the pleasure of meeting so...Please STEP THE FUCK OFF!


they aren't parallel...why? cause I believe I am not parallel to a cow...I am ever so slightly smarter than it...and have been able to figure out how to raise, slaughter and eat it. If we were indeed parallel then you bet your tasty rump roast a cow would have your ass corralled ready to slaughter too.


G...that's too bad, cause it's not going to stop.

like it or not...I disagree, to me it is a matter of opinion, much more relavant than say a favorite color opinion..but...I can see the difference there..apparently you can not.
I've never been an advocate of the current farming industry so you are barking up the wrong tree, but untill the shit hits the fan and we go back to the way things used to be..that's the way it is. when it does hit the fan...let me know when you kill your first squirrel and eat it because you were starving. LOL

Essence
do meat eaters HAVE to "play a part" in the process in order to be justified? if so then all vegitarians would need to "play a part" in the growth and cultivation of thier food supplies to make an arguement...and that is why this convo gets ridiculous.
Yes, my husband hunts because he loves to hunt...not "just" to get food on the table...so...he's a what? a jerk? and asshole? what? I call him a loving caring individual.
I don't feel the need to "condem" anyone...that's my whole point. I can understand the "victim" aspect...yet "most" vegitarian refuse or just can not understand the opposing point of view. To understand does not mean you agree...just that you are open to others way of life.
[This message was edited Tue May 20 10:31:10 PDT 2003 by Shorty]

Shorty said:

Well meat eaters don't have to do anything but it's a soft argument comparing the process of collecting vegetables with murder. Just let them see first hand what it entails is all.

I know this doesn't apply to you and your husband who can regularly witness/participate in the sluaghter without any conscience issues but you are both in a very small minority of omnivorous humans.

Shorty said:

So, basically, you're saying that might DOES make right. If a cow were smart enough to enslave and brutalize you, then it would be ok, right?

Smarter doesn't make for morally superior. What about metally disabled folk? Some of them are about as intelligent as cows. Do we have the right to do whatever we want to them? I think not.





I'm working to change that. Maybe not your position, but the position of your children.





Starving people who hunt are not the people I'm critical of. And there are practically none of those people in existence in western civilization. Certainly none of us here with computers and internet access are included.

And it was ME who was pointing out that this is not a mere matter of opinion (like favorite color), so what in heavens name are you talking about when you say I don't know the difference?






It does, but because you've missed the point. I addressed it in an earlier post. The point is hypocricy. Go back and read.





Sure I understand. I used to eat animals too. And then I opened my mind, analyzed my (bad) arguments, and realized I was wrong. And no, I'm not open to a way of life that brutalizes sentient beings. That's why I changed mine.

tackam said:[quote]

Shorty said:

no...I didn't say cause we were "stronger" (might) makes it right...matter of fact I didn't say anything about anything being right or wrong.
and no I didn't say it would be ok if a cow did it to us...what I said was if they could...they would.


your logic is very strange to me...you are drawing a parallel between cows and mentally disabled people?? something I can't and won't do. sorry...bad example.



[quote]I'm working to change that. Maybe not your position, but the position of your children.
What I see happened is...you USED to understand, then you closed that part of your mind to open up another...too bad you couldn't have opened up that door but left the other one open to...atleast for the sake of openmindedness...but oh well...to each their own I say.

theblueangel said:

It also helps that I grew up in the inner city of Dallas.
All my food came packaged...or cooked.
To me (clueless); all foods were man-made.

Imagine my shock when I saw my first real "hog" and it was so diffrent from "Miss Piggy"!
And U mean to tell me that bacon is from the sides of that stinkin thing???
And Boston Butt is really "butt"???
And the ham is its big old fat thighs???
Hmmm Pretty useful invention...HOG
Somehow I can not get sentimental over them.
Just didn't want any for a good while.

I also do not cook...(I can make grilled cheese, and microwave corn dogs and stuff).
Therefore raw meat I never purchase nor handle.
(Husband is master cook)
I think it would make a difference if I did.

To each his own...

Essence said:

Really???
U have some statistics on this?
I would sure like to have them.
Melody

What amazes me is the fact that some people are kinder to animals than they are to other human beings. I have a question: Is eating meat a sin? I wanna know so that I can heap that on top of all the other sins I'm committing.

wow, what an awesome discussion! as a vegan, i'm just xcited that i don't have 2 xplain the term all the time while posting here or chatting on the npgmc... that's huge! keep up the great discussion - it's important to raise awareness, no matter where u come down on the issue.

support your right to arm bears!

stymie said:

stymie - i'ts all a crap shoot, if u ask me! i just figure i save up my alotted number of sins for more fun stuff than eating dead animals!

SensualMelody said:

Just saying Prince fanatics who hang on the man's words are more likely to explore and possibly convert to his chosen faith nowadays. Nothing deep...

It's not hypocritical, it's commerce. Vegetarian or Carnivore, we pay people to do stuff that we don't want to do all the time. Doesn't make you a hypocrite, makes you a consumer.

You're absolutely correct in saying that I'm really not that interested in killing my own food. I'm also not interested in digging my own septic tank, disposing of my own garbage, and a million other unpleasantries that I'd rather have someone else do. I assume that most vegetarians also would not choose to perform many of the unpleasant and downright nasty acts of life. Doesn't make them hypocrites either. Where we differ, IMO, is the value you place on this one particular act that I choose to farm out, so to speak. Like Sensual said, to each his own.

tackam said:

[This message was edited Tue May 20 13:22:57 PDT 2003 by Universaluv]

It cool - I go hunting all the time, kill my tea and eat it...

but im against fox hunting etc

Does taht make me a hypocrite - i dont think so, i dont like anything being killed for no reason thats all

Shorty said:[quote]tackam said:[quote]

Shorty said:

no...I didn't say cause we were "stronger" (might) makes it right...matter of fact I didn't say anything about anything being right or wrong.
and no I didn't say it would be ok if a cow did it to us...what I said was if they could...they would.


your logic is very strange to me...you are drawing a parallel between cows and mentally disabled people?? something I can't and won't do. sorry...bad example.






-It's not that mentally disabled people are like cows. It is that being less intelligent doesn't take away your moral rights. You still haven't given an argument for why it is ok to brutalize animals.

-I SAID THAT THIS ISSUE AND FAV COLOR ARE **NOT** THE SAME! Read what I freakin' SAID. Fav color is trivial, and you are free to have (and act on) opinions regarding that. Brutality towards animals is NOT trivial, and you do not have a right to do whatever you want with them. You just ACT like you do, and your society currently lets you get away with it.

-I do still understand where you are coming from. And I'm telling you that you are WRONG.

Shorty said:

When I get home from my 9-5 job I really don't have time to pick up a rifle and run into the woods behind my apartment complex, LOL. I am a meat eater though. And I'm surrounded in nature by meat eaters. Everything from small organisms to large majestic creatures. I oppose some of the cruel practices used by companies, but I can protest those issues without giving up eating meat. When our ancestors were out spearing animals, thats not exactly a swift painless death either. We have the techonolgy and capacity to put down animals for consumption more humanely, and I think we should.

tackam said:[quote]

Shorty said:

Slapped in the face by the truth?! The entire ECOSYSTEM is composed of MANY meat eaters. That's the TRUTH.

And another TRUTH is all that Tofu meat substitute stuff tastes like shit.
[This message was edited Tue May 20 20:03:08 PDT 2003 by Tom]

Tom said:

Tom...you need to meet someone who knows how to cook vegie style...

many of my friends a raging carnivores but LOVE the vegie feasts we have and sometimes prefer the substitutes to the real deal ('specially 'not-dogs')

If you wanna stop by, I'll show you how it's done!

endorphin74 said:

I like vegetables for what they are, vegetables. I've tried some of the meat substitutes, and its sort of like taking ground beef and trying to pass it off as a carrot.

Tom said:

You can do a great deal to reduce the suffering of animals in modern agriculture without giving up flesh, that's true. I support all steps in the right direction.

For the record, though, "free-range" varies MUCH from farm to farm. . .the only way to know whether it means anything is to visit the farm.

I've been moving toward being a vegetarian for years & it's gonna take YEARS for me to get there I'm still pretty meat dependent, but I'm substituting as much as possible. I still love a good steak every now & then, fall victim to chicken & turkey, blah blah blickety. I'll get there one day or year :O

I am a proud hunter of meat.

I hunt in the great wilds of Safeway.

I hunt in the vast savannah of Costco.

I hunt in the dark wilderness of Albertsons.

Occasionally I must resort to vicious hand to hand combat with other hunters. When there is one T bone left on sale, sorry, the weak and the slow are vanquished.

I hunt to bring raw flesh to my family.

And when my daughter decides she wishes to be a vegitarian, I do not get mad. I do not cry and scream and tear at my clothes.

I simply bar-b-que a rack of ribs with her favorite Jamaican jerk sauce, and pass it under her nose.

She relents and puts away such nonsense for another day.

I am a hunter.




GRUNT GRUNT GRUNT
[This message was edited Wed May 21 5:27:02 PDT 2003 by MKevon]

Tackam



To me there is a difference between the human "species" and say the bovine species. I do not view humans equal to bovines, it does not mean I feel they should be "brutalized" I mean even the way you put it makes your arguement impossible..."You still haven't given an argument for why it is ok to brutalize animals."
I never said it was ok to "brutalize animals", I already said that I was not in favor of the current meat industry. So you can step down from you little soap box now.

I feel they are lower in the food chain. Sorry. If perhaps a stronger more intelligent species of being comes along and figures out how to raise us for eating...then I can understand why! Is the food chain just fiction to you? When a person is walking along in the woods and they are attacked an eaten by a bear...do you think the bear is bothered by the fact that he just ripped this poor defensless person to shreds? LOL



calm down now...BREATHE! We obviously think much differently..and I've determind that you will never be able to see my point of view so...let's just move on shall we?



Oh ok, sure...thanx so much.

Tom said:

THANK YOU!

Tom said:

again I say, you need it prepared better and you'd understand. Not tryina make you vegie or anything, just letting you know this stuff can be made to taste VERY yummy

...ps we don't call 'em "meat substitutes" we call 'em "protein providers"

How I became vegetarian:

I was dared.

Someone dared me and a group of friends to go without eating meat for a week. We could eat all the candy, drink all the soda, smoke all the cigarettes, guzzle all the beer we so desired - but no meat. Period. For a week.

At the other end of that week, I realized I never really liked meat, nor did I like the way it sat in my stomach like a bowling ball afterwards. I felt lighter, like there was less heavy goo inside of me. I felt good.

And I still had a crappy diet. Back then, I ate a lot more chips, junk food, and crappy convenience food than I do now, and back then I drank non-diet sodas. Still, the weight just dropped off me and I felt better.

I know this doesn't happen for everyone. Some people claim that they get really sick when they try to go veggie. Such wasn't the case for me. It's the best thing I've ever done for my body, and not a day goes by where I think I've done something to damage myself physically by giving up meat.

Just sayin'.

Lacto-Vegetarian since 1985 here

bananacologne said:

You got me beat by three years! Go on witcha bad self, BC!

Although I gotta admit that "Tofu Pups" are, um...well, not one of the best things I've ever eaten, I simply can't eat real hot dogs anymore. And it has nothing to do with the taste - they still taste good to me, I'm somewhat sorry to have to admit.

If you currently can't understand why someone would choose to be a vegetarian and haven't been exposed to the horrific tactics that are being employed across the country (and around the world) by the meat-packing industry, please check out the following site, in the interest of keeping yourself informed on both sides of the issue:

http://www.goveg.com/pigcasei.html

Here's a little excerpt. It's quite graphic, but I suppose that's the point. I did make sure to not choose one of the more repulsive examples on there - yes, there are far worse examples of cruelty than this. I'm not personally advocating that you change your eating habits...but I do feel that information like this may cause certain people to be a bit more understanding of why one would choose to be a vegetarian.

"December 10, 1998: I finished my daily duties shortly after lunch and went to the breeding barn to see what was happening. I had been hearing continuous screaming coming from the barn for approximately 10 minutes. As I got closer, I could see that they were trying to move a sow who had collapsed and was wedged in the narrow space. Ray began stomping on the sow’s side and kicking her in the face. Robert's beating escalated in intensity as he became more frustrated. He gave up and Ray got on top of the sow and pretended to tap dance. Robert began beating the sow again, raising the cane over his head and hitting her as hard as he could. After five minutes of continuous beating, he gave up and we began to push and pull the sow along the walkway and around a corner leading out of the barn.

Once outside, Ray said, "Ain’t gonna run away now, bitch." The sow was lying on the concrete ramp breathing hard, foam dribbling from her mouth. Ray stood on top of her again and began dancing, then he got down and apologized to her. Purple welts were beginning to stand out on her back, many resembling the outline of a curved cane handle.

Later, I walked out to the sow and saw that Robert had slit the sow’s throat with a scalpel blade. Robert’s hands were covered in blood and he was holding a red metal pipe. The sow was still fully conscious and was looking around and lifting her head off the ground. As she breathed, I could hear blood gurgling in her throat. I looked into the wound and could see that the large vein was not severed, that her throat was not properly slit. After about five minutes, he decided to bolt her with the captive-bolt gun. He loaded it, placed it against her forehead and fired it. She convulsed and Robert started laughing."

If anyone is still reading and is shocked and bothered by what they just read, please check out the link above and/or share your thoughts with the rest of us.

Thanks to everyone who has posted on here for making it an extremely interesting, thought-provoking thread. This is what "internet communities" are all about.

EXACTLY why I dropped meat.
In our 'Religious Education' lesson in high school, we were shown a film about all that, I just couldnt face being part of all that anymore - the first 'adult' desision I ever made I guess.
It's not that I dont think that people shouldnt be eating animals etc (although I dont think it is NECESSARY 2 do so), I just cant/wont be part of something that looks upon another LIFE-Form as nothing but a PRODUCT. THAT is what bugs me about it if u get down 2 the nitty-gritty of it all.
Although, 4 the record (and Im gonna sound like Ive been drinking purple kool-aid here, so 4give me) If people ask me now WHY Im vegetarian - I simply cant be bothered 2 go thru that whole long-winded explanation 4 the millionth time - so I trot out that Prince quote:
'I just dont eat anything with eyes or parents' - and u know the wierd thing? It shuts them the hell up EVERY TIME!

Blueangel - I wasnt going 2 look at that site - as I know what atrocities can (and ARE) committed every day - but I wanted 2 confront all of that head-on once again.

I think every now and again, we need 2 stop and remind/refresh ourselves with matters such as this, vivisection, animal cruelty, hate crimes - the list (unfortuately) is endless - if we dont, we become coldly complacent.

Thanku 4 reminding me as 2 WHY I am vegetarian.


*MY-karma's-all-good-thanx,-howz-about-U?-edit*

'Nana, you're right...as unpleasant as it is, we DO need to hear about the atrocities that mankind commits...otherwise we might as well be americans back during WWII, when nobody believed any of the "rumors" about what happened at concentration camps, because it was too horrifying and disturbing.

complacency = complicity.

this thread has really moved me, people.