SUPRMAN said:

deebee said:

^ Thanks to my trusty old atlas from the mid-80s, I can still point out loads of countries all over the world: Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Zaire, and, of course, the USSR, to name but a few.

Only Zaire is still has the borders outlined in your atlas. The rest, no longer exist except in history.

Good to see you back, dear.

Am I the only one who learned the song Fifty Nifty United States in grade school?

Genesia said:

Am I the only one who learned the song Fifty Nifty United States in grade school?

No

deebee said:

My serious point, re: this whole discussion about lines and names on a map, is that I never took much from the abstract exercise of learning by rote where all the labels go (and I don't really think we should derived too much from the fact that most people can't do that, tbh). But if someone can connect those changing names and the shifting lines to the human stories behind them - and how human stories always play out on a stage set by history, politics, geography, etc, and sometimes remake that stage - they'll have me hooked, and I'll have some reason to care about these abstract facts, because I'll be able to connect them to something meaningful.

I was drawn, when I got the chance, to study the politics of the conflicts I'd been moved by seeing reports about (Rwanda, Somalia, etc), and I've always valued getting the chance to meet and talk to people from those places, as that adds a much more tangible dimension to these all-too-abstract subjects. I think we sometimes lose sight of the fact that the point of learning about geography, history, politics, etc, isn't just to generate a bunch of facts and figures we can use to rank people according to how well they regurgitate them in tests, but to help us to understand better the world we live in (and, if you're inclined towards such flights of idealism, to perhaps get a slightly clearer sense of how we might make it a better place for actual flesh-and-blood human beings to live in).

I agree with this. Geographic knowledge without the human import of its study becomes little more than the stuff of party tricks.

And it's interesting to see just what aspect of humanity draws some people to the wonder of knowing other places. For me, the appeal has been less about contemporary geopolitics than the much older cultural/historical trappings of places -- all of which, of course, inform the present. As long as I remember, I've never felt more human than in those moments where I realize my position in the much larger context of regions, peoples and experiences that I hadn't previously considered.

deebee said:

SUPRMAN said:

Only Zaire is still has the borders outlined in your atlas. The rest, no longer exist except in history.

Good to see you back, dear.

Thank you! Just dropping in. Too pessimistic to stay.

Lammastide said:

deebee said:

My serious point, re: this whole discussion about lines and names on a map, is that I never took much from the abstract exercise of learning by rote where all the labels go (and I don't really think we should derived too much from the fact that most people can't do that, tbh). But if someone can connect those changing names and the shifting lines to the human stories behind them - and how human stories always play out on a stage set by history, politics, geography, etc, and sometimes remake that stage - they'll have me hooked, and I'll have some reason to care about these abstract facts, because I'll be able to connect them to something meaningful.

I was drawn, when I got the chance, to study the politics of the conflicts I'd been moved by seeing reports about (Rwanda, Somalia, etc), and I've always valued getting the chance to meet and talk to people from those places, as that adds a much more tangible dimension to these all-too-abstract subjects. I think we sometimes lose sight of the fact that the point of learning about geography, history, politics, etc, isn't just to generate a bunch of facts and figures we can use to rank people according to how well they regurgitate them in tests, but to help us to understand better the world we live in (and, if you're inclined towards such flights of idealism, to perhaps get a slightly clearer sense of how we might make it a better place for actual flesh-and-blood human beings to live in).

I agree with this. Geographic knowledge without the human import of its study becomes little more than the stuff of party tricks.

And it's interesting to see just what aspect of humanity draws some people to the wonder of knowing other places. For me, the appeal has been less about contemporary geopolitics than the much older cultural/historical trappings of places -- all of which, of course, inform the present. As long as I remember, I've never felt more human than in those moments where I realize my position in the much larger context of regions, peoples and experiences that I hadn't previously considered.

In the olden days we also had social studies which did fuel my curiosity about the people who lived in those far away lands on the map.

The thing is, after I grew up and began reading about the history and culture of various peoples on my own I discovered more than a few blatant lies had been taught to us as kids!

Lammastide said:

deebee said:

My serious point, re: this whole discussion about lines and names on a map, is that I never took much from the abstract exercise of learning by rote where all the labels go (and I don't really think we should derived too much from the fact that most people can't do that, tbh). But if someone can connect those changing names and the shifting lines to the human stories behind them - and how human stories always play out on a stage set by history, politics, geography, etc, and sometimes remake that stage - they'll have me hooked, and I'll have some reason to care about these abstract facts, because I'll be able to connect them to something meaningful.

I was drawn, when I got the chance, to study the politics of the conflicts I'd been moved by seeing reports about (Rwanda, Somalia, etc), and I've always valued getting the chance to meet and talk to people from those places, as that adds a much more tangible dimension to these all-too-abstract subjects. I think we sometimes lose sight of the fact that the point of learning about geography, history, politics, etc, isn't just to generate a bunch of facts and figures we can use to rank people according to how well they regurgitate them in tests, but to help us to understand better the world we live in (and, if you're inclined towards such flights of idealism, to perhaps get a slightly clearer sense of how we might make it a better place for actual flesh-and-blood human beings to live in).

I agree with this. Geographic knowledge without the human import of its study becomes little more than the stuff of party tricks.

And it's interesting to see just what aspect of humanity draws some people to the wonder of knowing other places. For me, the appeal has been less about contemporary geopolitics than the much older cultural/historical trappings of places -- all of which, of course, inform the present. As long as I remember, I've never felt more human than in those moments where I realize my position in the much larger context of regions, peoples and experiences that I hadn't previously considered.

Interesting reflections. Any particular instances stand out in your memory, or any examples of what it is that brings on that realisation of your position in that context?

babynoz said:

Lammastide said:

I agree with this. Geographic knowledge without the human import of its study becomes little more than the stuff of party tricks.

And it's interesting to see just what aspect of humanity draws some people to the wonder of knowing other places. For me, the appeal has been less about contemporary geopolitics than the much older cultural/historical trappings of places -- all of which, of course, inform the present. As long as I remember, I've never felt more human than in those moments where I realize my position in the much larger context of regions, peoples and experiences that I hadn't previously considered.

In the olden days we also had social studies which did fuel my curiosity about the people who lived in those far away lands on the map.

The thing is, after I grew up and began reading about the history and culture of various peoples on my own I discovered more than a few blatant lies had been taught to us as kids!

Made me think of Gil: http://www.dailymotion.co...story_news

I was trying to think, after Lamma posted, of what the 'hook' is for me, and I think that thing of being sceptical of prevailing accounts and wanting to delve behind and beneath them has something to do with it. That thin surface layer that gets presented to us on the news never does much to help us understand the forces that shape people's lives, and the way they interact with those, in my view. And when it's accounts of strange-looking folk in those 'far away lands' there are just so many 'pre-thought' ideas that tend to lazily inform accounts (as the scholar Edward Said mapped out in his work). It comes out clearly in the way people talk about the Middle East, etc, today. I think I resent being short-changed, and always feel like I want to understand more than that.

babynoz said:

Lammastide said:

I agree with this. Geographic knowledge without the human import of its study becomes little more than the stuff of party tricks.

And it's interesting to see just what aspect of humanity draws some people to the wonder of knowing other places. For me, the appeal has been less about contemporary geopolitics than the much older cultural/historical trappings of places -- all of which, of course, inform the present. As long as I remember, I've never felt more human than in those moments where I realize my position in the much larger context of regions, peoples and experiences that I hadn't previously considered.

In the olden days we also had social studies which did fuel my curiosity about the people who lived in those far away lands on the map.

The thing is, after I grew up and began reading about the history and culture of various peoples on my own I discovered more than a few blatant lies had been taught to us as kids!

I have an insatiable curiosity about every human on the planet and their cultures, etc. I wish I could travel so much more than I do. I learned all the states/capitals in school. Still remember most of them. I always kept a huge atlas on the walls of my kids' rooms too. Made sure they weren't like the guy on the Bill Maher interview who was asked to point to the location of Iraq on a map and pointed to Australia.

noimageatall said:

babynoz said:

In the olden days we also had social studies which did fuel my curiosity about the people who lived in those far away lands on the map.

The thing is, after I grew up and began reading about the history and culture of various peoples on my own I discovered more than a few blatant lies had been taught to us as kids!

I have an insatiable curiosity about every human on the planet and their cultures, etc. I wish I could travel so much more than I do. I learned all the states/capitals in school. Still remember most of them. I always kept a huge atlas on the walls of my kids' rooms too. Made sure they weren't like the guy on the Bill Maher interview who was asked to point to the location of Iraq on a map and pointed to Australia.

wasn't that bush???

KingBAD said:

noimageatall said:

I have an insatiable curiosity about every human on the planet and their cultures, etc. I wish I could travel so much more than I do. I learned all the states/capitals in school. Still remember most of them. I always kept a huge atlas on the walls of my kids' rooms too. Made sure they weren't like the guy on the Bill Maher interview who was asked to point to the location of Iraq on a map and pointed to Australia.

wasn't that bush???

deebee said:

babynoz said:

In the olden days we also had social studies which did fuel my curiosity about the people who lived in those far away lands on the map.

The thing is, after I grew up and began reading about the history and culture of various peoples on my own I discovered more than a few blatant lies had been taught to us as kids!

Made me think of Gil: http://www.dailymotion.co...story_news

I was trying to think, after Lamma posted, of what the 'hook' is for me, and I think that thing of being sceptical of prevailing accounts and wanting to delve behind and beneath them has something to do with it. That thin surface layer that gets presented to us on the news never does much to help us understand the forces that shape people's lives, and the way they interact with those, in my view. And when it's accounts of strange-looking folk in those 'far away lands' there are just so many 'pre-thought' ideas that tend to lazily inform accounts (as the scholar Edward Said mapped out in his work). It comes out clearly in the way people talk about the Middle East, etc, today. I think I resent being short-changed, and always feel like I want to understand more than that.

Co-sign

One reason I read The Economist, USA Today cover stories, NYT Sunday, or online articles is for good in depth coverage of an issue. You don't just get the headline, you can get how it got to the headline. That background is crucial to forming an informed opinion based on the facts.

It's IMO like realizing 9/11 was another terror attack in a string of terror attacks globally dating back to the end of WWII which gave rise to independence movements globally. America was never exempt. There were hijackings in the U.S., but not like those that turned deadly in Europe, Africa, the Middle East and in East Asia where N. Korea has at least twice brought down commercial civilian aircraft. Lockerbie was an attack on a U.S. airline. Despite increased security and awareness after 9/11 there was Bali, Spain, London, Mumbai.

babynoz said:

Lammastide said:

I agree with this. Geographic knowledge without the human import of its study becomes little more than the stuff of party tricks.

And it's interesting to see just what aspect of humanity draws some people to the wonder of knowing other places. For me, the appeal has been less about contemporary geopolitics than the much older cultural/historical trappings of places -- all of which, of course, inform the present. As long as I remember, I've never felt more human than in those moments where I realize my position in the much larger context of regions, peoples and experiences that I hadn't previously considered.

In the olden days we also had social studies which did fuel my curiosity about the people who lived in those far away lands on the map.

The thing is, after I grew up and began reading about the history and culture of various peoples on my own I discovered more than a few blatant lies had been taught to us as kids!

I learned that as a child. I read as a child to escape. I read everything I could get my hands on.

The best history teacher I ever had was in college. Class was generally a conversation between he and I. He did not teach history as a set of facts and events. He taught history as concepts. How Northern racism in America created suburbia and the housewife in heels and pearls. Why all our collective cultural impressions of the '50's are white-centric. We also discussed how it affected things such as U.S. foreign policy.

Did America needs wars in Iraq to shake off Vietnam?

Looking at history that way, you go looking for facts to support your initial belief. What you find may surprise but, look at what you've learned.

I agree with DeeBee on this. I have Asperger syndrome and as a kid I enjoyed storing factoids in my head, which included sovereign states, their capitals and flags. But what was the added value of knowing that Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania's capitals were Tallinn, Riga, and Vilnius respectively if I had no clue what either those cities or the countries they were located in (and the people, their culture and history) looked like?

Somewhat to my shame, I still struggle with naming all the capitals of the 12 Dutch provinces (I'm Dutch btw).

I've also felt the benefits of immersing myself into the culture and history of another country (in my case mainly Indonesia), as it allows me to fish out certain biases that appear in Dutch media reports about those countries. Learning the language of that country also helps open many, many new windows, as it gives you access to the news sites and radio streaming. Of course, those domestic news sources can sometimes be biased as well, so you have to develop a nose for it.

And yeah, atlases are cool.

deebee said:

babynoz said:

In the olden days we also had social studies which did fuel my curiosity about the people who lived in those far away lands on the map.

The thing is, after I grew up and began reading about the history and culture of various peoples on my own I discovered more than a few blatant lies had been taught to us as kids!

Made me think of Gil: http://www.dailymotion.co...story_news

I was trying to think, after Lamma posted, of what the 'hook' is for me, and I think that thing of being sceptical of prevailing accounts and wanting to delve behind and beneath them has something to do with it. That thin surface layer that gets presented to us on the news never does much to help us understand the forces that shape people's lives, and the way they interact with those, in my view. And when it's accounts of strange-looking folk in those 'far away lands' there are just so many 'pre-thought' ideas that tend to lazily inform accounts (as the scholar Edward Said mapped out in his work). It comes out clearly in the way people talk about the Middle East, etc, today. I think I resent being short-changed, and always feel like I want to understand more than that.

I was a kid at the height of the cold war...you can imagine what we were taught about Russia.... I think that one of the reasons I'm so hooked on history today is due to the early misinformation that was taught to us about other people around the world. That and the fact that both my mom and my godfather were history buffs.

noimageatall said:

babynoz said:

In the olden days we also had social studies which did fuel my curiosity about the people who lived in those far away lands on the map.

The thing is, after I grew up and began reading about the history and culture of various peoples on my own I discovered more than a few blatant lies had been taught to us as kids!

I have an insatiable curiosity about every human on the planet and their cultures, etc. I wish I could travel so much more than I do. I learned all the states/capitals in school. Still remember most of them. I always kept a huge atlas on the walls of my kids' rooms too. Made sure they weren't like the guy on the Bill Maher interview who was asked to point to the location of Iraq on a map and pointed to Australia.

Wouldn't it be great to be able to travel more?

I still have that world atlas on the wall in my son's room....between me. my mom and my godfather we made sure they didn't grow up clueless.

KingBAD said:

noimageatall said:

I have an insatiable curiosity about every human on the planet and their cultures, etc. I wish I could travel so much more than I do. I learned all the states/capitals in school. Still remember most of them. I always kept a huge atlas on the walls of my kids' rooms too. Made sure they weren't like the guy on the Bill Maher interview who was asked to point to the location of Iraq on a map and pointed to Australia.

wasn't that bush???

Just came back from the Philipines, was very surprise how many people there didn't know where Hawaii was. Some one asked me if I could drive to Canada.