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Thread started 04/28/12 9:33am

SUPRMAN

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Questions on the nature of time.

Gravity affects time. How?

If time can be altered, it is always linear?

How could we percieve non-linear time?

The speed of light is constant in the presence of, and the absence of gravity. Why isn't time also exempt?

I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
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Reply #1 posted 04/28/12 9:44am

SUPRMAN

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Gravitational force, or gravity, is the mutual attraction between all masses in the universe. Most scientists assume that gravity travels at the speed of light, which is actually the propagation speed of electromagnetic waves (such as light) in a vacuum. The speed of light is a physical constant equal to exactly 299,792.458 kilometers per second (km/s), or about 186,471 miles per second. The assumption that gravity also travels at this speed is implicit in Einstein's general theory of relativity, formulated in 1915, which recognizes the universal character of the propagation speed of light and the consequent dependence of space, time, and other mechanical measurements on the motion of the observer performing the measurements. Although this is still our best working theory of space-time, the concept that gravity travels at the speed of light is an assumption, and, until recently, has never been tested.

The assumed speed of gravity remained untested and unchallenged for so long because most physicists thought that gravity shows its speed only in the propagation of gravitational waves through space, and since no one has even detected gravitational waves, measuring how fast they travel was not possible.

Sir Isaac Newton thought that the speed of gravity was instantaneous, and Einstein assumed it traveled at the speed of light. Although scientists believe that Einstein was right, for nearly a century no one had been able to directly measure gravity's speed. However, on September 8, 2002, an international team of scientists did just that, using an experiment conceived by Sergei Kopeikin, professor of physics and astronomy at the University of Missouri-Columbia.1

[EDITED]

Kopeikin and Fomalont became the first two people to quantitatively measure the speed of gravity, one of the fundamental constants of nature. They found that gravity does move at the same speed as light. Their actual figure was 1.06 times the speed of light, but there was an error of plus or minus 0.21. The results were then announced at the 2002 American Astronomical Society annual meeting in Seattle, Washington.5

The result rules out the possibility that gravity travels instantaneously, as Newton imagined. If it did, a minutely different shift in the position of the quasar would have been visible on the night of September 8. This vindicates Einstein's instinct when formulating his general theory of relativity, which was to assume that the speed of gravity was equal to the speed of light.6

[EDITED]

http://www.csa.com/discov...erview.php

Gravity moves at the speed of light, but time doesn't. Why not? Time moving at the speed of light wouldn't change our perception of time. It would create either a finite or infinite unit of time.

Finite, if it could be defined as we define a particle, or infinite if it could be discetely identified or perceived as other than a long string of continuity.

I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
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Reply #2 posted 04/28/12 9:54am

SUPRMAN

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So how big is the effect of gravity on time? Very tiny, at least as far as we are able to experience here on the Earth. For example, taking h = 100 metres gives f' / f = 1 - gh/c2 0.99999999999999. This means that Bob's clock is running 99.999999999999% as fast as Alice's, meaning we would have to wait a very long time for a noticeable difference in age to accumulate. Nevertheless, the effect has been measured using very accurate atomic clocks and the results are in excellent agreement with our formula. Indeed, the Global Positioning System (GPS), which relies on very accurate atomic clocks both on the Earth and carried by satellites high above the Earth, must account for this effect in order to work with the accuracy it does. It should be emphasized, however, that this warping of time, while small anywhere in our solar system, is huge in other more interesting places in our universe. A black hole is an extreme example, where gravity is so strong at the event horizon that time is slowed to a stop relative to anyone outside the horizon! But this is another story…

http://wiki.answers.com/Q...hange_time

I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
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Reply #3 posted 04/28/12 10:04am

NDRU

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I feel like maybe time does not really exist, except as an observation of occurrances in relation to one another. But it is totally relative, not absolute.

Or, if it does exist, I think it is not actually being changed by things like gravity, but that other sensual things such as light & sound are being changed, and those things simply alter our perception of time.

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Reply #4 posted 04/28/12 10:25am

SUPRMAN

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TIME-Non-Linear Theory.

In Indian Philosophy, Philosophy, Quantum Thgeory, Space, Time on August 21, 2009 at 03:56

1 Votes

Galilean transformation

Image via Wikipedia

TIME- A Perspective

.
Is Time Cyclic or Linear?
Time is non linear. It is Cyclic. Cyclic theory of Time in Hinduism.

[EDITED]

To understand things as they are is beyond human ability. Let us say that we want to know whether there are any particles that travel at a higher velocity than light. (It has been proved theoretically that they exist).If we want to prove them by direct experience rather than inference, we need to be in motion in tune with the particle traveling faster than the velocity of light (Einstein circumvented this problem by theorizing that if an object were to travel at a higher velocity than that of light, it would no longer remain matter. (Theory of Relativity.)


Imagine, we travel at a higher velocity than the velocity of light, not withstanding the fact that we may no longer remain as matter, what happens?


We may be able to observe the particle traveling at a higher velocity than light. But, in the process of observing this phenomenon, we no longer remain in our normal original state. That is to say we have changed our plane of existence to that of the object traveling at a higher velocity.
This means to understand, in the realms of Higher Physics, if one needs to observe things of a different coordinates, one needs to move to the same level of existence.


That is to say our existence coordinates or parameters vary. This leads to different level of Time as this involves motion at a higher velocity than the one we are in. This admits the differentiation of time, determined by two factors-the point from which one observes and the point at which the observable exists. In short to understand higher velocities one needs to be at the same velocity to observe in real time.

Time Zones differ.Let us leave the explanation or justification for the change in Time zones. The fact is, one in a particular Time zone can only visualize or imagine the reality of the other time zone, nothing more. From the individual stand point, the time zone in which he is placed is the Reality and the other time zones are not experienced by him directly at the given point of Time. We go with the statement of others that other time zones exist because people who live in the other zones vouch for it. But we do not perceive it by ourselves.


From the explanation of Big Bang theory, we know the universe was formed at the time of Big Bang and started moving forward or started evolving.

What of the moment just before Big Bang? Stephen Hawkins states that it is irrelevant as it has no bearing on our Time frame. (Brief History of Time)

Is it logical to say that when we can not comprehend or explain concept, the concept is irrelevant?

What if it has a frame of reference of time than the one understood by us?


We can see clearly that we link Time with Motion. Displacement is observed due to change in Time Frame.

Time is understood by displacement. It means that we perceive Time because of a displacement of object, be it the universe or the hands of a clock. This Circular Reasoning is a logical fallacy. (As we say commonly. egg came from the Hen and Hen came from the egg. We can not arrive at a conclusion).


To quote another famous example; if we travel in a train traveling at a particular speed and observe a train moving at the same speed in the same direction, you will observe that you are stationary as the other train. But you will have covered some distance. In this case motion seems to be at rest while space has been observed. By this example we can say space may exist independently of Time.


But when we follow the concept of Big bang, time is intricately connected with Space and in fact is concomitant with Time.


Another example from Xeno’s Paradoxes:
1. Let us keep the distance from Bangalore to Chennai at 300 miles (for calculation purposes.)
If we travel at the rate of 300 miles per hour, we will reach Chennai in an hour; at 600 miles per hour, 30 minutes; at 1200 miles per hour in 15 minutes; at 2400 miles per hour, in 7.5 minutes; at 3600 miles per hour, in 3.75 minutes, at 7200 miles, in 1.8 minutes; at 14400 miles, in .9 minutes. At this rate, we would have reached Chennai before we left Bangalore!


2. Let an object X travel between A and B.X has to cover half the distance of AB before reaching B, we may call this as C;
X before reaching C, should cover half the distance of AC, say D; to reach D, X has to cover half the distance of AD, say E.
We know that Space is infinitely divisible. That means X will be traveling infinitely, that is motion is impossible


When we speak of Pole star being 400 light years away, we can only say that it existed 400 years ago, because the light left Pole star 400 years ago! We can not say it is there now because we see in the sky today


The long and short of it is that defining Time is very difficult and is in fact impossible.
Latest findings on Black hole suggest that if you go through a black hole, time runs backwards. If by chance, we were to be in Black hole, will we perceive our present universe as flowing forwards in Time?


The reason for this situation is the assumption that Time is Linear. Time flows in one direction that is forward.


What if Time is Cyclic? That is, it flows around and depending on where you are, Time moves both forwards and backwards .Time is a stream; so is Space. Per se they are Absolute. They are Relative to the observer. To put it in simpler words ,things exist in Space and Time at all times irrespective of your positioning and what we say to day has happened ,is right now happening at another level for an observer positioned to observe it. For them, our Universe is Past. Similarly for another observer, what we see as future, may be Present.

[EDITED]

We can see Time is Nonlinear and is Cyclic.


Time as we have seen is relative. Time in Indian philosophy is an Attribute of Reality, so is Space.
The Cyclic Theory of Time overcomes the Non Linear Theory of Time in that there is no seeming contradiction in comprehending different time scales. to illustrate,; you take a snap of an action, say a cricket match with two different cameras, one with a higher speed and another with ultra slow speed. If a catch has been under dispute, the ultra slow motion camera will show the exact action, that is, whether the catch has been taken cleanly by the fielder. The same information will not be available in a High speed camera. One camera shows an action and another does not show it. Which is True in relation to Time? That is to say, one instrument recording the event for the same period does not show it, though it should have passed the time at which the event has taken place and the other shows the same event, which it has passed. Recordings provide us with two projections. If it is due to the quality of instrument, then can we not say each one of them is correct or both of them are wrong? So when we talk about Perception, Time factor is one of the coordinates we do not know much about, if we accept Linear Theory. If we accept Cyclic Theory, we can say the event has happened and also not happened. The difference is the relative positioning.


Again, an event is a form of energy. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. If we accept the Theory of Linear Time, we have to say the event is no more or is destroyed. Under Cyclic Theory, this does not happen as everything happens, happened and will happen at the same time.


Recent researches on Human Brain have shown that the Brain anticipates action yet to take place and keeps the senses like eyes to receive the message and in fact receives (ref. TOI Aug 08) the message ahead of the event.

Time moves both forwards and backwards .Time is a Stream; so is Space. Per se they are Absolute. They are Relative to the observer. To put it in simpler words ,things exist in Space and Time at all times irrespective of your positioning and what we say to day has happened ,is right now happening at another level for an observer positioned to observe it. For them, our Universe is Past. Similarly for another observer, what we see as future, may be Present.

**

If we accept the Linear Theory of Time, we can not account for the time factor.

http://ramanan50.wordpres...ar-theory/

This actually makes more sense, that time isn't linear. It's only linear relative to my perception as the viewer. An attribute of reality.

I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
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Reply #5 posted 04/28/12 10:29am

SUPRMAN

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NDRU said:

I feel like maybe time does not really exist, except as an observation of occurrances in relation to one another. But it is totally relative, not absolute.

Or, if it does exist, I think it is not actually being changed by things like gravity, but that other sensual things such as light & sound are being changed, and those things simply alter our perception of time.

It is definitely changed by gravity as a clock in space runs at a different speed than a clock on Earth.

The clock with less gravity, is faster.

But these observations of occurrences don't occur simultaneously. These occurrences also exist even if there are no humans to record them.

I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
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Reply #6 posted 04/28/12 10:48am

NDRU

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SUPRMAN said:

NDRU said:

I feel like maybe time does not really exist, except as an observation of occurrances in relation to one another. But it is totally relative, not absolute.

Or, if it does exist, I think it is not actually being changed by things like gravity, but that other sensual things such as light & sound are being changed, and those things simply alter our perception of time.

It is definitely changed by gravity as a clock in space runs at a different speed than a clock on Earth.

The clock with less gravity, is faster.

But these observations of occurrences don't occur simultaneously. These occurrences also exist even if there are no humans to record them.

I have heard that, and I know we're not talking about a normal alarm clock here, but I have to wonder are we totally sure it is time itself being affected and not just the clock?

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Reply #7 posted 04/28/12 11:35am

SUPRMAN

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NDRU said:

SUPRMAN said:

It is definitely changed by gravity as a clock in space runs at a different speed than a clock on Earth.

The clock with less gravity, is faster.

But these observations of occurrences don't occur simultaneously. These occurrences also exist even if there are no humans to record them.

I have heard that, and I know we're not talking about a normal alarm clock here, but I have to wonder are we totally sure it is time itself being affected and not just the clock?

Yes. The clocks are atomic.

I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
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Reply #8 posted 04/28/12 11:48am

SUPRMAN

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NDRU said:

SUPRMAN said:

It is definitely changed by gravity as a clock in space runs at a different speed than a clock on Earth.

The clock with less gravity, is faster.

But these observations of occurrences don't occur simultaneously. These occurrences also exist even if there are no humans to record them.

I have heard that, and I know we're not talking about a normal alarm clock here, but I have to wonder are we totally sure it is time itself being affected and not just the clock?

I found this:


Time Equivalence

Gravitational Time Versus Inertial Time

Physical time exists as two separate arrows or time flows that are measured by two completely different kinds of clocks. Inertial time can be measured by the daily rotation of the Earth on its axis or by the vibration of atoms in an atomic clock. Gravitational time can be measured by the yearly revolution of the earth around the sun or by the swing of a grandfather clock’s pendulum. The ability of a particular clock to measure the effects of one type of time is dependent on its ability to be isolated from the effects of the other type of time. A thought experiment is proposed to illustrate the mechanism by which an inertial clock is slowed by an increase in velocity and by which the rate of a gravitational clock increases as it gains velocity.

Metaphysical Time

Time does not have a real physical existence like matter or even the void of space that has a negative existence. Time is merely an idea used to quantify the motion of matter through the void. The idea of time is a dichotomy between metaphysical time and physical time. Metaphysical time is the perception of time as a continuous flow that is without interval and is thus immeasurable. It is the comprehension of motion and therefore of time’s passage. Once time becomes quantified into intervals by the cyclical motion of a clock it becomes Physical time.

Physical Time

Physical time does not have a single homogenous flow but rather is measured as two distinct and unrelated phenomena that are measured with two completely different kinds of clocks. The two separate types of time flow that we cut into equal intervals with our clocks are gravitational time, that is derived from the constancy of a gravitational acceleration and inertial time that is derived from the constancy of momentum (mv) or angular momentum (mvr) of a body in motion, either in a straight line or rotating about an axis. Physical time is the concept used to generalize these two opposite time flows into the idea of a single one-dimensional temporal motion. Inertial time and gravitational time are the quantitative intervals measured by clocks and metaphysical time is the qualitative and dimensionless ideal principle common to both.

Clocks do not measure time directly; they monitor the relationship between mass and space. Time is merely the relationship between mass and space, and its existence can only be established and quantified by the measurement of these two parameters. Since time cannot be measured independently of mass and space, any change in the values of mass and space will cause the values of the intervals recorded by clocks to be transformed as well.

Only two different kinds of clocks are used to measure time: inertial clocks and gravitational clocks. Each of these clocks measures a different relationship between mass (M) and its motion through space (S). Gravitational clocks measure Force (F=MS/T2) and inertial clocks measure momentum (MS/T) and angular momentum (Iw = MSR/T). Inertial clocks divide the constant inertial motion of a body into intervals and derive their standard of time from the conservation of momentum and angular momentum. Gravity clocks measure the inertial forces produced when a body’s motion is constantly changed by gravity and derive their standard of time from the constancy of this force. Inertial time units are the cycles produced by a rotating or vibrating body and gravitational time units are the cycles produced by the constant acceleration of gravity such as the swinging of a pendulum or the revolving of the moon. The accuracy of both clocks depends on an unchanging relationship between mass and space.

Gravity clocks measure the motion of gravity as force and inertial clocks measure inertial motion as momentum. Gravity clocks must be isolated from the effects of momentum and inertial clocks must be isolated from the effects of force. Pendulum clocks don’t work well on a boat because of the continual changes in momentum, and inertial clocks must be free of the effects of friction and energy transfer on their oscillators. The inertial clock of the earth’s rotation repeats a cycle of day and night, that over long periods of time, is slowed by tidal friction that causes the Earth’s rotation to slow and the length of the day to increase. In this process energy and angular momentum from Earth’s rotation are transferred to the moon. This slows its orbital velocity and increases the orbit’s size proportionally to the square of the velocity that is gradually slowed down. Also, the day/night cycle is not pure inertial time because it is contaminated by one part in 365 because the gravity clock of Earth’s revolution around the sun. One day/night cycle is lost every time the Earth goes around the sun. Likewise, the gravity clock of the moon’s monthly phases looses one Earth day of inertial time per month as the moon orbits Earth.

The history of time keeping is a steady parade of ingenious devices, all of which are either gravity clocks or inertial clocks. Ever since humans first developed the idea of time and began devising clocks to measure and record its passage they have used both gravity and inertial clocks. Hourglasses, water clocks, and pendulum clocks are examples of gravity clocks. An electronic digital clock, that records the rapid cyclical motion of groups of atoms, or a pocket watch, that measures the cyclical motion of a balanced weight, are examples of inertial clocks. For three hundred years the pendulum gravity clock was the most accurate of clocks, but recently the electronic inertial clock has far exceeded it in accuracy.

These two kinds of clocks can never be combined because each measures a different quantity, and these two quantities are mutually exclusive. For example, the inertial clock provided by the Earth’s rotation would not be affected by a sudden change in the Earth’s acceleration of gravity, but would be slowed down by an increase in mass. A pendulum clock would be speeded up by an increase in gravitational acceleration but would not be affected by the addition of mass to its pendulum. In fact it can be said that gravitational time and inertial time are opposites that flow in different directions. For example, a pendulum clock would run slower at the Equator than at the South Pole because, at the Equator, the downward acceleration of inertial time, caused by the Earth’s rotation, would counteract the upward acceleration of gravitational time. The accuracy of any clock depends on isolating the kind of time being measured from the kind not being measured.

The Equivalence Principle maintains that units of duration of inertial time and gravitational time are equal to one another. However, this principle does not hold up when we consider the transformations that occur to time-keeping devices when they are accelerated to extremely high velocities. When mass is accelerated, these two measures of time diverge from one another, and in doing so provide an example of the Equivalence Principle leading to an incorrect conclusion. Conversely, Absolute Motion Theory maintains that there is no equivalence of gravitational time and inertial time except at the position of absolute rest. As their absolute motion is increased, gravitational clocks run faster and inertial clocks run slower. These diverging time flows are not even symmetrical in that gravitational clocks increase at a rate that is the square root of the rate by which inertial clocks slow down.

To understand how these two measures of time diverge from one another with the transformation of mass, we will perform a thought experiment in which the spinning Earth is an example of an inertial clock and Earth’s acceleration of gravity is an example of a gravitational clock. Earth makes one revolution on its axis every day while a clock’s pendulum swings back and forth a certain number of times each day.

We will use two different accelerometers to monitor the two measures of time. One accelerometer is placed vertically at the North Pole to measure the gravitational acceleration. The second, much more sensitive accelerometer, is placed vertically at Earth’s Equator with its acceleration vector pointing at the center of the earth. This accelerometer measures the centripetal force caused by the rotation of Earth on its axis. We will assume that Max has been able to design this accelerometer in such a way that the opposite acceleration of gravity can be canceled from the reading. Both accelerometers are calibrated to read one unit of space per one unit of time squared (S/T2). Each of these three accelerometers is equipped with a pendulum-type clock that indicates the passage of time according to the acceleration experienced by it. An inertial Cesium-133 atomic clock is also shown that registers time based on the cyclical inertial motions of atoms contained within it. The following illustration entitled Lead World shows three “Earths”: Lead Earth, Earth at Rest, and Kinetic Earth.

On Earth at Rest all three clocks remain synchronized and register the passage of time identically so that both pendulums swing with a period of one second. For our thought experiment, let’s suppose that Max is able to fashion an exact replica of Earth out of solid lead so that it is the same size as Earth but has twice the mass. Once Max completes this task, he finds that all three clocks are running at different rates.

On Lead Earth the doubling of Earth’s mass also doubles its acceleration of gravity. This causes the gravity clock’s pendulum to speed up and decrease the period of its swing from one second to 1/2 = .70711 second.

In order to conserve the angular momentum (Iw) = (MVR) inherent in Earth’s rotation, the period of its rotation would be doubled and its equatorial velocity would be cut in half. This slowing of Earth’s rotation would cause the Equator inertial clock to register one quarter of its original rate and its pendulum to double the period of its swing to two seconds. The rate of the atomic clock would slow only very slightly by about one part in a billion due to the increased gravity, but it would register the passage of each day as 48 hours. If all three clocks were synchronized at six o’clock the atomic clock would read 6:10 when the inertial Equator clock read 6:05 and the gravity clock read 6:14.14. The observer on Lead Earth would weigh twice as much as he did on Earth at Rest but his internal bodily clock would remain in sync with the atomic clock and he would easily perceive that the days were twice as long as usual.

For the second part of our thought experiment we will imagine that Max is able to fabricate another Earth replica with a mass the same as Earth and then, accelerate it to 86.6% the speed of light. This is a very difficult task and requires 4 x 1041 joules of energy, which is equal to the sun’s total output for 10,000,000 years! At this velocity, a body’s kinetic mass is exactly equal to its rest mass. Even though this increase in velocity doubles the Earth’s mass to equal that of the Lead Earth, the transformation of the clocks is not quite the same.

On Kinetic Earth, Earth’s acceleration of gravity has doubled and the gravity clock is running at the same rate as the identical clock on Lead Earth, however, the Kinetic Earth accelerometer shows twice the acceleration. This is because the accelerometer’s movable weight has doubled in mass and now exerts twice as much force on the spring with the same amount of acceleration. The inertial clock at the equator is running at the same rate as the one on Lead Earth but the centripetal accelerometer is reading twice as much acceleration as the clock’s rate would indicate. This is again because of the doubling of the movable weight’s mass exerts twice as much force on the spring.

The inertial atomic clock has slowed to one half of its rate at rest and on Lead Earth. This slowing is caused by the same inertial process that slowed Lead Earth’s rotation. This atomic clock slows as its cesium atoms conserved angular momentum (Iw = mvr) as their masses increased with their velocity. As the linear velocity of a body is increased, the equatorial velocity of the circlon-shaped particles making up the body’s matter is reduced according to the formula: (V = Iw/mr). The atomic clock and the inertial equator clock both run at the same speed and both mistakenly show that the day is 24 hours long. However, the observer on Earth at Rest sees Kinetic Earth rotating every 48 hours, the same as Lead Earth.

The internal body clock of the observer on Kinetic Earth has slowed to one half of its rest rate along with the atomic clock and to him, the days seem to pass at their normal 24 hour rate, but he sees his gravity clock running at 2.28 times the rate of the inertial clocks. When he looks back at Earth at Rest he sees that it is rotating in just twelve hours. The observer’s weight has increased from 1 on Earth to 2 on Lead Earth and to 4 on Kinetic Earth.

In the case of the Earth accelerated to 86.6% the speed of light, the values for the equatorial velocities of both Earth and the particles of its matter would be reduced to one half of their values at rest. It is this effect that is responsible for the concept of Relativistic Time Dilation whereby an observer in motion experiences the passage of inertial time at a slower rate than an observer at rest. At rest the equatorial velocity of the particles making up matter is the speed of light. As they are accelerated, their equatorial velocity slows down until at 86.6% the speed of light, this velocity is reduced to one half the speed of light.


I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
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Reply #9 posted 04/28/12 12:03pm

NDRU

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SUPRMAN said:

NDRU said:

I have heard that, and I know we're not talking about a normal alarm clock here, but I have to wonder are we totally sure it is time itself being affected and not just the clock?

Yes. The clocks are atomic.

but presumably atomic clocks (and atoms themselves) might possibly affected by the physical world as well?

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Reply #10 posted 04/28/12 12:25pm

SUPRMAN

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NDRU said:

SUPRMAN said:

Yes. The clocks are atomic.

but presumably atomic clocks (and atoms themselves) might possibly affected by the physical world as well?

By gravity? Yes. But the atoms are much smaller than clocks, so less subject to gravity.

How is a distortion in the measurement of time, not a distortion of time?

When you go to sleep, time doesn't stop for you. The fact that you have no perception of the period does not eliminate its existence.

I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
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Reply #11 posted 04/28/12 1:22pm

KingBAD

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i'm truly glad to see that you have the copacity

to relay your thoughts in the manner that you do.

and i believe that the passin of time is whut ndru had

said, "...an observation of occurrances in relation to one another."

but then too i feel it can be curved like space which

would then mean that it exist, but as a part of space...

not a scientist, just my thinkin lol

KALI my child will wreak havoc on all you love at my command... i am KING BAD!!!
evilking
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Reply #12 posted 04/28/12 1:44pm

SUPRMAN

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KingBAD said:

i'm truly glad to see that you have the copacity

to relay your thoughts in the manner that you do.

and i believe that the passin of time is whut ndru had

said, "...an observation of occurrances in relation to one another."

but then too i feel it can be curved like space which

would then mean that it exist, but as a part of space...

not a scientist, just my thinkin lol

It curves likes space, due to gravity but can also exist without space and space can exist without time I think as I think without matter, time has no effect, if that makes sense.

I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
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Reply #13 posted 04/28/12 2:30pm

KingBAD

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SUPRMAN said:

KingBAD said:

i'm truly glad to see that you have the copacity

to relay your thoughts in the manner that you do.

and i believe that the passin of time is whut ndru had

said, "...an observation of occurrances in relation to one another."

but then too i feel it can be curved like space which

would then mean that it exist, but as a part of space...

not a scientist, just my thinkin lol

It curves likes space, due to gravity but can also exist without space and space can exist without time I think as I think without matter, time has no effect, if that makes sense.

bare with me while i take this trip smoker

i remember when i was a kid it was said that

"eternity is but a blink of the eye of GOD"

then some years ago anne rice wrote of the thirteen

revalations of evolution where she stated that the reason

that angles started trippin was because from the first signs

of life they saw death which was un-familiar to them

stick wit me, i'm goin somewhere with this.

with them bein able to see before and after it would

seem that time is a dementional value to some

but has no value to others.

now,

in the world we inhabit there is a coralation between

time and space because, perhaps, gravity like you say.

however in a vacuum the would be no time for there

is no gravity in the vacuum, outside the vacuum though

things will still develope show a passage of whut we call time eek

i don't get high, BUT that got me fucked up lol

KALI my child will wreak havoc on all you love at my command... i am KING BAD!!!
evilking
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Reply #14 posted 04/28/12 3:33pm

NDRU

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SUPRMAN said:

NDRU said:

but presumably atomic clocks (and atoms themselves) might possibly affected by the physical world as well?

By gravity? Yes. But the atoms are much smaller than clocks, so less subject to gravity.

How is a distortion in the measurement of time, not a distortion of time?

When you go to sleep, time doesn't stop for you. The fact that you have no perception of the period does not eliminate its existence.

I agree, and that is why I believe that just because we might perceive time in relative ways--ie. how sleeping makes time "go faster," or the atomic clock that moves faster on the space ship, or the delayed sound heard from far away that happened seconds ago to the person who was right next to it--that time (if it exists) still moves at a constant rate.

Even if we amplified the effect of the atomic clock experiment, and it turned out that a person on a spaceship aged much faster or slower than a person on earth, in my mind that does not change any absolute passage of time. It might affect the the molecules in that person's body, not the actual passage of time in an objective sense.

My understanding is that the concept of time travel is that it is still impossible to go back in time. You can see time move backward by travelling faster than light, but you won't be able to interact with the past.

I don't know, it's a pretty difficult concept, I don't claim that what I'm saying is actually true.

[Edited 4/28/12 15:37pm]

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Reply #15 posted 04/28/12 4:12pm

Cerebus

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String theory. Quantum physics. Good stuff. nod

"Time" as defined by human beings is complete nonsense. It's made up gobbledygook. Animals, rocks, oceans, planets, suns, solar systems - these things don't keep time, they just exist. But man feels the need to measure and define "stuff", and for whatever reason, our brains are able to accept these things as truths.

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Reply #16 posted 04/28/12 4:15pm

Cerebus

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SUPRMAN said:

NDRU said:

I feel like maybe time does not really exist, except as an observation of occurrances in relation to one another. But it is totally relative, not absolute.

Or, if it does exist, I think it is not actually being changed by things like gravity, but that other sensual things such as light & sound are being changed, and those things simply alter our perception of time.

It is definitely changed by gravity as a clock in space runs at a different speed than a clock on Earth.

The clock with less gravity, is faster.

But these observations of occurrences don't occur simultaneously. These occurrences also exist even if there are no humans to record them.

But time only exists because man says it does. So really, none of this is true, or occurring. biggrin Fun, ain't it?

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Reply #17 posted 04/28/12 5:15pm

SUPRMAN

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KingBAD said:

SUPRMAN said:

It curves likes space, due to gravity but can also exist without space and space can exist without time I think as I think without matter, time has no effect, if that makes sense.

bare with me while i take this trip smoker

i remember when i was a kid it was said that

"eternity is but a blink of the eye of GOD"

then some years ago anne rice wrote of the thirteen

revalations of evolution where she stated that the reason

that angles started trippin was because from the first signs

of life they saw death which was un-familiar to them

stick wit me, i'm goin somewhere with this.

with them bein able to see before and after it would

seem that time is a dementional value to some

but has no value to others.

now,

in the world we inhabit there is a coralation between

time and space because, perhaps, gravity like you say.

however in a vacuum the would be no time for there

is no gravity in the vacuum, outside the vacuum though

things will still develope show a passage of whut we call time eek

i don't get high, BUT that got me fucked up lol

Why would there be no time in the vacuum? An outside observer could mark the passage of time in or outside the vacuum. (Well technically not from inside the vacuum as then it would no longer be the same space devoid of matter.)

The absence of matter to mark time, doesn't mean time doesn't exist. We just don't see any effects of time. I agree there is no way to determine the age of a vacuum that one does not know when it was created (such as in a lab.) In that sense there is no time there.

I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
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Reply #18 posted 04/28/12 7:05pm

Deadcake

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Cerebus said:

String theory. Quantum physics. Good stuff. nod

"Time" as defined by human beings is complete nonsense. It's made up gobbledygook. Animals, rocks, oceans, planets, suns, solar systems - these things don't keep time, they just exist. But man feels the need to measure and define "stuff", and for whatever reason, our brains are able to accept these things as truths.

we do because we are aware of time passing and wish we had more of it. Keeping time is just a check on our own mortality ultimately. How much time we have on this earth.

a whore in sheep's clothing
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Reply #19 posted 04/28/12 7:09pm

ThisOne

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u can easily relate the passing of time with age

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Reply #20 posted 04/28/12 7:46pm

SUPRMAN

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Cerebus said:

SUPRMAN said:

It is definitely changed by gravity as a clock in space runs at a different speed than a clock on Earth.

The clock with less gravity, is faster.

But these observations of occurrences don't occur simultaneously. These occurrences also exist even if there are no humans to record them.

But time only exists because man says it does. So really, none of this is true, or occurring. biggrin Fun, ain't it?

I disagree. Animals keep time. They migrate according to season, so they are aware of the passage of time.

I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
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Reply #21 posted 04/28/12 8:01pm

Cerebus

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SUPRMAN said:

Cerebus said:

But time only exists because man says it does. So really, none of this is true, or occurring. biggrin Fun, ain't it?

I disagree. Animals keep time. They migrate according to season, so they are aware of the passage of time.

Instinct, based on climate change. Temperature, wind direction, barametric pressure and the like. All of which they also have no understanding. They don't know that it's March, or October, because those are man made definitions. Instinct.

Man created the concept of time. The very notion of what a clock would do in a vacuum is a thought that only a human being would have, because no other creatures (that we are aware of, but certainly not on this Earth) use clocks.

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Reply #22 posted 04/28/12 8:04pm

Cerebus

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Think about how man manipulates time. Leap year. Daylight savings time. A sparrow doesn't care about such things. A whale doesn't care if it gets an extra hour of daylight, or an extra day in February once every four years so it's calendar stays accurate. lol

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Reply #23 posted 04/28/12 10:13pm

KingBAD

avatar

SUPRMAN said:

KingBAD said:

bare with me while i take this trip smoker

i remember when i was a kid it was said that

"eternity is but a blink of the eye of GOD"

then some years ago anne rice wrote of the thirteen

revalations of evolution where she stated that the reason

that angles started trippin was because from the first signs

of life they saw death which was un-familiar to them

stick wit me, i'm goin somewhere with this.

with them bein able to see before and after it would

seem that time is a dementional value to some

but has no value to others.

now,

in the world we inhabit there is a coralation between

time and space because, perhaps, gravity like you say.

however in a vacuum the would be no time for there

is no gravity in the vacuum, outside the vacuum though

things will still develope show a passage of whut we call time eek

i don't get high, BUT that got me fucked up lol

Why would there be no time in the vacuum? An outside observer could mark the passage of time in or outside the vacuum. (Well technically not from inside the vacuum as then it would no longer be the same space devoid of matter.)

The absence of matter to mark time, doesn't mean time doesn't exist. We just don't see any effects of time. I agree there is no way to determine the age of a vacuum that one does not know when it was created (such as in a lab.) In that sense there is no time there.

i believe when one, hypotheticly, is in the vacuum they do not experience time (grow older, change,

experience the passing of time) as it would be a bending of whut we call time. so whut happens outside the vacuum is where the time will be gaged and to the one who was inside that vacuum

it would be news to them that anything took place geek

KALI my child will wreak havoc on all you love at my command... i am KING BAD!!!
evilking
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Reply #24 posted 04/28/12 11:41pm

NDRU

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Cerebus said:

SUPRMAN said:

I disagree. Animals keep time. They migrate according to season, so they are aware of the passage of time.

Instinct, based on climate change. Temperature, wind direction, barametric pressure and the like. All of which they also have no understanding. They don't know that it's March, or October, because those are man made definitions. Instinct.

Man created the concept of time. The very notion of what a clock would do in a vacuum is a thought that only a human being would have, because no other creatures (that we are aware of, but certainly not on this Earth) use clocks.

Exactly, the clock is just a representation of the spinning of the earth.

If t

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Reply #25 posted 04/29/12 12:13am

Deadcake

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NDRU said:

Cerebus said:

Instinct, based on climate change. Temperature, wind direction, barametric pressure and the like. All of which they also have no understanding. They don't know that it's March, or October, because those are man made definitions. Instinct.

Man created the concept of time. The very notion of what a clock would do in a vacuum is a thought that only a human being would have, because no other creatures (that we are aware of, but certainly not on this Earth) use clocks.

Exactly, the clock is just a representation of the spinning of the earth.

If t

you fell asleep mid typing!

a whore in sheep's clothing
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Reply #26 posted 04/29/12 8:25am

SUPRMAN

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Cerebus said:

SUPRMAN said:

I disagree. Animals keep time. They migrate according to season, so they are aware of the passage of time.

Instinct, based on climate change. Temperature, wind direction, barametric pressure and the like. All of which they also have no understanding. They don't know that it's March, or October, because those are man made definitions. Instinct.

Man created the concept of time. The very notion of what a clock would do in a vacuum is a thought that only a human being would have, because no other creatures (that we are aware of, but certainly not on this Earth) use clocks.

The point is that they are marking time in some fashion. They don't have to know the word. They don't need to understand time beyond their basic instinct. That instinct is still driven by the passage of time.

So until we 'created' time, the Earth, nor the universe was aging?!!!

So then the Earth and the Universe aren't billions of years old because we haven't been around long enough to count that passage of time?

SO what was time doing before we named it? Was the sun shining before we gave it a name?

Or is it's history negated because there were no people to name it?

I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
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Reply #27 posted 04/29/12 8:33am

SUPRMAN

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NDRU said:

SUPRMAN said:

By gravity? Yes. But the atoms are much smaller than clocks, so less subject to gravity.

How is a distortion in the measurement of time, not a distortion of time?

When you go to sleep, time doesn't stop for you. The fact that you have no perception of the period does not eliminate its existence.

I agree, and that is why I believe that just because we might perceive time in relative ways--ie. how sleeping makes time "go faster," or the atomic clock that moves faster on the space ship, or the delayed sound heard from far away that happened seconds ago to the person who was right next to it--that time (if it exists) still moves at a constant rate.

Even if we amplified the effect of the atomic clock experiment, and it turned out that a person on a spaceship aged much faster or slower than a person on earth, in my mind that does not change any absolute passage of time. It might affect the the molecules in that person's body, not the actual passage of time in an objective sense.

My understanding is that the concept of time travel is that it is still impossible to go back in time. You can see time move backward by travelling faster than light, but you won't be able to interact with the past.

I don't know, it's a pretty difficult concept, I don't claim that what I'm saying is actually true.

[Edited 4/28/12 15:37pm]

But it does change the passage of time. One year is not one Earth year, everywhere throughout the Universe.

Jupiter's year is 11.862 Earth years. We define a year as the period of time to make one rotation around the Sun. That is not an absolute measure of time but varies according to where one is in relation to the sun and how fast one is moving around it.

I'm not convinced that time moves at a coinstant rate, everywhere in the Universe. Gravity's affect on the measurement of time is real, but there seems to be some debate about what is actually being measured. If it affects how it's measured is there any artificial distortion or is the measurement real?

I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
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Reply #28 posted 04/29/12 8:36am

SUPRMAN

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Cerebus said:

Think about how man manipulates time. Leap year. Daylight savings time. A sparrow doesn't care about such things. A whale doesn't care if it gets an extra hour of daylight, or an extra day in February once every four years so it's calendar stays accurate. lol

Man does not manipulate 'time.' What is being manipulated is how we mark the passage of time.

We do not know how cognizant animals are of what we define as time.

We assign them no intelligence and thus assume they have no ability to define or care.

When they do act in accordance with some internal timepiece, such as when to migrate, without knowing, we assume they can't have any awareness.

Time is a factor in every living creature's environment.

I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
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Reply #29 posted 04/29/12 8:38am

SUPRMAN

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KingBAD said:

SUPRMAN said:

Why would there be no time in the vacuum? An outside observer could mark the passage of time in or outside the vacuum. (Well technically not from inside the vacuum as then it would no longer be the same space devoid of matter.)

The absence of matter to mark time, doesn't mean time doesn't exist. We just don't see any effects of time. I agree there is no way to determine the age of a vacuum that one does not know when it was created (such as in a lab.) In that sense there is no time there.

i believe when one, hypotheticly, is in the vacuum they do not experience time (grow older, change,

experience the passing of time) as it would be a bending of whut we call time. so whut happens outside the vacuum is where the time will be gaged and to the one who was inside that vacuum

it would be news to them that anything took place geek

If you were in a vacuum, with a watch, why would the watch stop? There's no reason you can't park the passage of time in a vacuum. What you could not do is determine the age of the vacuum itself.

There would be no matter to exhibit changes over periods of time that would then be measurable.

I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
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