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Prince v. MJ - who came for who? So I've been listening to Invincible for the past two nights, because I frequently just overlook MJ's 2001 album. In another thread, I talk about my thoughts on it. Sorry, it's the Hodgkin's talking. |
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There are stories floating around about how MJ wanted a big waterfall on stage for one of his live shows. When it was put to him that it might be a bit difficult for the crew to build a waterfall on stage he said something like "God gave me this idea, if I don't use it he'll give it to Prince". It was something like that, anyway. I don't really pay attention to these kinds of stories so I'm sure someone else here can correct me on the exact details of it. Honestly, I think that the whole rivalry between the two was blown out of proportion. But it was good publicity so neither man really cared to set the record straight. But I don't believe that either of them ever set out to specifically outdo the other. Sure, they'd put a few cheeky references to each other in their lyrics. Like when MJ said "If he's buying Diamonds and Pearls, he can't do it like me" or when Prince said "my voice is getting higher and I ain't never had my nose done". But I don't think these little references ever influenced the other to the point where they thought "I have to do better than that". Their music is so different. It's not really comparable. I can imagine Prince listening to Santana or Rick James and thinking "I can take that to the next level". But I don't see or hear any evidence in his music that he was trying to outdo Michael Jackson. And MJ seemed pretty much in his own lane too. I think he was probably more concerned with trying to recapture his own glory years than competing with Prince. | |
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MJ was on wreckastore circa 1996/97, he visited the Prince departMent. A fan hold him Emancipation, he sighed despitefully, and then laughed. Prince came in MJ s studio during the recording of History many times, and at least one time with Lenny Kravitz, for listening to the album. According to some sound engineers, he liked it and said it was " Good". Prince also reportedly re recorded Bad and sent it back to MJ for him to improve the song and making it more " Funky". Prince gave him the song " Wouldn't you live to love Me " For Bad, but MJ wasn't impressed. There was rumours circa 2000, about MJ asking Prince to produce a song for Invincible, but I don't know the truth in it. He asked to almost everybody in the entertainment world for Invincible, so it's not that far-fetched after all. There was a rumour he even asked to Sly Stone, to help him financially. Nothing came of it, byt he recorded at that time a cover for Everybody is a star, so who knows. |
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Proof plz. Always cry 4 love, never cry 4 pain. |
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He said that during This Is It. Nothing about a waterfall. Always cry 4 love, never cry 4 pain. |
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bluegangsta said:
Proof plz. No, I saw that a loooong time ago. There was a video, and some fan writing a story that was there this day. |
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bluegangsta said:
He said that during This Is It. Nothing about a waterfall. I read that story too for This is it. Don't know for sure it was about a waterfall, but it was about something huge to build on stage. And I would add that MJ did 50 shows because some of his managers brainwashed him saying that Prince did 21 nights, amd that he had to at least double that feat. When MJ died, in an interview at a french newspaper, he was asked if he was jealous about MJ doing 50 shows when he did only 21. He said : No. If MJ could book 50 shows, then I could have booked 100". I still have that very page of that newspaper. |
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RODSERLING said: bluegangsta said:
He said that during This Is It. Nothing about a waterfall. I read that story too for This is it. Don't know for sure it was about a waterfall, but it was about something huge to build on stage. And I would add that MJ did 50 shows because some of his managers brainwashed him saying that Prince did 21 nights, amd that he had to at least double that feat. When MJ died, in an interview at a french newspaper, he was asked if he was jealous about MJ doing 50 shows when he did only 21. He said : No. If MJ could book 50 shows, then I could have booked 100". I still have that very page of that newspaper. Yeah, I wasn't sure what it was. I knew it was something big and ridiculous that he wanted. Like I said, I don't really have much interest in these people outside of their music. | |
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1999 and Thriller came out only a month or so apart, but I do believe Purple Rain (all of it - the movie, album and tour) was a direct reply to the success of Thriller. |
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bluegangsta said:
He said that during This Is It. Nothing about a waterfall. WATERFALL https://www.vulture.com/2...motiv.html [Edited 11/3/21 9:08am] | |
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The article I posted up above in response to bluegangsta has some details about MJ's thoughts on one-upping Prince, for those who are interested. I still think a lot of their "rivalry" was bullshit though and they each just played up to it for publicity. | |
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Welcome to "the org", laytonian… come bathe with me. |
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You could say that MJ's 50-night sold-out O2 residency was a direct response to Prince's record-breaking 21 Nights at O2.
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laytonian said:
Wait, you mean MJ died before doing the 50 shows? Never heard of that. They should make a movie about it. Of course the topic was about the number of shows sold-out. MJ spent his life chasing the success of Prince. When he was in the J5, he wanted to outsell Prince and his Gramd Central Champagne band. This is so obvious. When Prince covered J5 and Jacksons songs circa 2010, he was in fact paying a tribute to himself, since MJ at the age of 11 vowed his life to outsell Prince. Determined to outsell Purple Rain, he did it only three times : with Thriller, Bad and Dangerous. With Invincible he tried to chase the success of D&P, the second best selling of Prince. He outsold D&P with only one music video and without a world tour. That became so easy, that MJ gave up releasing albums. [Edited 11/3/21 9:26am] |
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laytonian said:
What you’re saying is BS.🤨 [Edited 11/3/21 20:47pm] | |
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My Name Is Prince sounds to me like Prince is trying intentionally to sing like MJ. | |
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I don't doubt that competition might've been a factor in the number of shows but I've always called this endeavor the "Back in the Black Tour". Mike was in so much debt and this tour, if successful, would've put millions in his pocket. It would've been massively lucrative for all involved. |
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I read many things over the years through different boards.
Dirty Diana would be MJ's answer to Darling Nikki. She Drives Me Wild the answer to Little Red Corvette. Why You Wanna Trip On Me had an intro like When Doves Cry. In 2BAD, Prince would have shared his background vocals with MJ ( the deep voice deep in the mix). The title of the track would be an obvious reference to Prince use of numbers to replace a syllabus. There's also one thing that amazed me, the CD artwork of BOTDF, showing the diamonds and Pearls, mimicking the D&P CD. An obvious reference to the eponym music video, but still. The knife in the heart would have been more understandable. Among all his catalogue, Superfly Sister is IMHO the song that ressembles the more of Prince music. If There's one thing they share in common musically, it's their ability to lay background vocals as no other ever did besides them. I think MJ perfected this technique before Prince, and better though,notably his adlibs vocals covering his adlibs. Remember The Time is a famous instance. MJ and Prince were both also famous, don't deny it, and often mocked, for their vocal gimmicks, " Hee hee", " Ooow", etc. MJ came first with that too. There's also an obvious thing, nobody talks about it, but MJ named his two sons Prince. Debbie Rowe was already pregnant when Prince'son died. [Edited 11/3/21 10:56am] [Edited 11/3/21 11:03am] |
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blacknote said:
I don't doubt that competition might've been a factor in the number of shows but I've always called this endeavor the "Back in the Black Tour". Mike was in so much debt and this tour, if successful, would've put millions in his pocket. It would've been massively lucrative for all involved. Yep. And doing all the shows in one place also meant that they had no travelling costs. And he hadn't performed for so long that there was bound to be a huge demand for tickets. It was an obvious attempt to make as much money as possible. I remember seeing a Dutch celebrity journalist (for Dutch orgers: Albert Verlinde) predicting that he wasn't going to make it. If you take any of this seriously, you're a bigger fool than I am. | |
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Se7en said: 1999 and Thriller came out only a month or so apart, but I do believe Purple Rain (all of it - the movie, album and tour) was a direct reply to the success of Thriller. Nah. Prince had been walking around with the idea of doing a movie at least since the 1999 tour. He was planning it as his big breakthrough regardless of what Jackson was doing, but Jackson could have inspired him to think, hey, if he can make it this big then so can I! If you take any of this seriously, you're a bigger fool than I am. | |
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TrivialPursuit said: So I've been listening to Invincible for the past two nights, because I frequently just overlook MJ's 2001 album. In another thread, I talk about my thoughts on it. Was on Okayplayer and someone posted about seeing them backstage at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame ceremony talking and laughing with each story While they were both competitive (with each other, other artists and even themselves), they stayed in their own lanes "We may deify or demonize them but not ignore them. And we call them genius, because they are the people who change the world." |
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Sorry, it's the Hodgkin's talking. |
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I like the story told by Will.I.am and Chris Tucker how they and MJ went to go see Prince in Vegas and Prince was aggressively playing the bass in MJ's face. I can just imagine the funk Prince was slapping. __________________________________________________
2 words falling between the drops and the moans of his condition | |
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SantanaMaitreya said: blacknote said:
I don't doubt that competition might've been a factor in the number of shows but I've always called this endeavor the "Back in the Black Tour". Mike was in so much debt and this tour, if successful, would've put millions in his pocket. It would've been massively lucrative for all involved. Yep. And doing all the shows in one place also meant that they had no travelling costs. And he hadn't performed for so long that there was bound to be a huge demand for tickets. It was an obvious attempt to make as much money as possible. I remember seeing a Dutch celebrity journalist (for Dutch orgers: Albert Verlinde) predicting that he wasn't going to make it. Even my mother, from the minute she saw him on TV announcing the shows, told me he wasn't going to make it. I think everybody knew, besides hardcore fans like me. It was revealed during the AEG trial that MJ was drunk when announcing the shows. He emptied a vodka bottle in his hotel room from where he didn't want to go out. He just signed the contracy earlier that day. He begged the AEG managers to rent a crowd to welcome him, because he thought nobody cared. He said to them "nobody would pay to see a 50 years old man doing the moonwalk, you are all insane if you think you will get money with that". |
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RODSERLING said: SantanaMaitreya said: Yep. And doing all the shows in one place also meant that they had no travelling costs. And he hadn't performed for so long that there was bound to be a huge demand for tickets. It was an obvious attempt to make as much money as possible. I remember seeing a Dutch celebrity journalist (for Dutch orgers: Albert Verlinde) predicting that he wasn't going to make it. Even my mother, from the minute she saw him on TV announcing the shows, told me he wasn't going to make it. I think everybody knew, besides hardcore fans like me. It was revealed during the AEG trial that MJ was drunk when announcing the shows. He emptied a vodka bottle in his hotel room from where he didn't want to go out. He just signed the contracy earlier that day. He begged the AEG managers to rent a crowd to welcome him, because he thought nobody cared. He said to them "nobody would pay to see a 50 years old man doing the moonwalk, you are all insane if you think you will get money with that". I don’t believe a lot of things AEG “said” AFTER Michael died. AEG told Katherine that if she sued them, they would make Michael look bad. First, I don’t believe that they had to “hire” a crowd to Welcome Michael. That’s complete crap, IF they said that. This sounds like the time that the media lied and said that the crowd booed Michael at an event where he was honored. The next day EVERY media outlet spread that lie. When the video of the event was released, the crowd was OVERWHELMINGLY ectastic. The lie was put out there to maliciously demean Michael. Another reason I don’t believe the supposedly “hire” story are the ticket sales. There is no other artist in history who has SOLD OUT 50 shows in one city with ZERO promotion, no album, no project just on their name. It was said that there was such unprecedented reaction that they could have sold out ANOTHER 50 shows. There has never been and will NEVER be that type of reaction for ANY OTHER ARTIST, And that’s the bottomline. Btw, I believe that Michael would have made it through these shows, if it hadn’t been for the murderer, Conrad Murray. Not only did he kill Michael by being negligent and not monitoring him, he was slowing killing him in other ways. According to Michael’s chef, Kai Chase, Murray was controlling Michael’s diet and giving him some kind of “health drink”. Michael trusted “doctor” with his life and he killed MJ. During Murray’s trial, this was basically brought out. The Assistant DA wanted to file MURDER charges; however, the DA filed manslaughter. I will never forget how two Minneapolis DJs were raving about how great Michael was and how unprecedented this feat was of him selling out 50 shows in one Arena. I wished I had recorded their reaction. Maybe someone knows what I’m talking about and can post it.FINALLY, for those TRYING to diminish this unprecedented feat, no Michael Jackson fan is going to sit back and allow you to pull that BS. FTR, Michael SOLD OUT Wembley Stadium SEVEN times for the BAD tour, and could have sold out 2-3 more, if Bruce Springsteen hadn’t been playing those. So, nobody had to “hire” anyone to welcome or react to Michael.😎💯 | |
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RODSERLING said: I read many things over the years through different boards.
Dirty Diana would be MJ's answer to Darling Nikki. She Drives Me Wild the answer to Little Red Corvette. Why You Wanna Trip On Me had an intro like When Doves Cry. In 2BAD, Prince would have shared his background vocals with MJ ( the deep voice deep in the mix). The title of the track would be an obvious reference to Prince use of numbers to replace a syllabus. There's also one thing that amazed me, the CD artwork of BOTDF, showing the diamonds and Pearls, mimicking the D&P CD. An obvious reference to the eponym music video, but still. The knife in the heart would have been more understandable. Among all his catalogue, Superfly Sister is IMHO the song that ressembles the more of Prince music. If There's one thing they share in common musically, it's their ability to lay background vocals as no other ever did besides them. I think MJ perfected this technique before Prince, and better though,notably his adlibs vocals covering his adlibs. Remember The Time is a famous instance. MJ and Prince were both also famous, don't deny it, and often mocked, for their vocal gimmicks, " Hee hee", " Ooow", etc. MJ came first with that too. There's also an obvious thing, nobody talks about it, but MJ named his two sons Prince. Debbie Rowe was already pregnant when Prince'son died. [Edited 11/3/21 10:56am] [Edited 11/3/21 11:03am] Just wanted to add a few things to your response: 1. Debbie was pregnant with Michael’s first child BEFORE she became pregnant with Prince, and she had a miscarriage. Therefore, Debbie was pregnant by Michael THREE times. 2. Michael’s son Prince was named after his Grandfather, Prince Albert Screws, Katherine Jackson’s father. People ASSUMED he named him after singer Prince and that is totally a LIE. Btw, Michael has mentioned this several times; however, people ignore it. Hmmm, I wonder why?🤔🤔 [Edited 11/3/21 20:22pm] | |
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Exactly.
http://www.squareeyed.tv/2016/06/26/leaked-audio-reveals-michael-jacksons-astonishing-rant-prince/
Jackson said: “I have proven myself since I was real little. It’s not fair. He feels like I’m his opponent. I hope he changes because boy, he’s gonna get hurt. He’s the type that might commit suicide or something.
“He was so rude, one of rudest people I have ever met. He has been very mean and nasty to my family.” Jackson could also be heard mocking Prince’s appearance at a James Brown tribute concert in 1983, where Prince fell into the crowd after leaning against a paper mache lamppost. Jackson said: “He made a fool of himself. He was a joke.”
The hardcore superfans are the ones who like to live in fantasy land where the rivalry is a media concoction created out of thin air (or a "friendly" rivalry, with all these "friendly" anecdotes) and nothing more. Clearly, there was palpable energy here between two completely different personalities with two completely different approaches to their art. Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne didn't necessarily always get along either.
[Edited 11/3/21 20:38pm] |
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Prince saw the appeal of "Little Red Corvette" to white listeners and a growth in concert goers, then he comes up with "Let's Go Crazy," and "Purple Rain," arguably the two biggest songs on the album. Sorry, it's the Hodgkin's talking. |
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I think folks may be getting lost in the media rivalry, which is not my post. "Did MJ hear 'Temptation' and write 'Dirty Diana'?" [Edited 11/3/21 20:48pm] Sorry, it's the Hodgkin's talking. |
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WhisperingDandelions said:
Exactly.
http://www.squareeyed.tv/2016/06/26/leaked-audio-reveals-michael-jacksons-astonishing-rant-prince/
Jackson said: “I have proven myself since I was real little. It’s not fair. He feels like I’m his opponent. I hope he changes because boy, he’s gonna get hurt. He’s the type that might commit suicide or something.
“He was so rude, one of rudest people I have ever met. He has been very mean and nasty to my family.” Jackson could also be heard mocking Prince’s appearance at a James Brown tribute concert in 1983, where Prince fell into the crowd after leaning against a paper mache lamppost. Jackson said: “He made a fool of himself. He was a joke.”
The hardcore superfans are the ones who like to live in fantasy land where the rivalry is a media concoction created out of thin air (or a "friendly" rivalry, with all these "friendly" anecdotes) and nothing more. Clearly, there was palpable energy here between two completely different personalities with two completely different approaches to their art. Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne didn't necessarily always get along either.
[Edited 11/3/21 20:38pm] The person that was there with MJ (his ghostwriter) during those recordings said those comments weren’t made so gotta take that into account http://www.showbiz411.com...for-prince "We may deify or demonize them but not ignore them. And we call them genius, because they are the people who change the world." |
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