I am no Tax Attorney, but I would think this IRS loss will bode well for Prince's estate (and future music!).

https://www.nytimes.com/2...tion=Music

arguing that Jackson’s reputation was in tatters at the end of his life, after years of lurid reporting on his eccentric lifestyle and a widely covered trial on child molestation charges, in which Jackson was acquitted.

I really don't think the Prince estate will be able to argue on the same grounds.

The valuation is determined at the time of his death. I think there are likely to be some identifiable differences between what the respective Estate's of Prince and Michael Jackson could argue to be reasonable.

The judge's ruling identified that, by the time of death, plausible allegations of repellent behaviour ruined his [Jackson's] reputation, and with it his ability to earn much income apart from his music.

As an aside, the Judge's closing opinion is also a sad reflection:

Um okay. More likely, Michael Jackson's image and likeness will still remain as iconic and evergreen as those of Elvis and Marilyn Monroe.

-

Jackson's art (which was always more appealing than his public persona/image) will likely continue to moonwalk through eternity for ages and ages like Beethoven, Shakespeare, or Michaelangelo.

---

Recording technology and the digital age has largely made the decay of time, death, and the grave irrelevant.

[Edited 5/4/21 12:13pm]

skywalker said:

As an aside, the Judge's closing opinion is also a sad reflection:

"Popular culture always moves on. There will come a time when Captain EO joins Monte Brewster and Terry Forbes as names that without googling sort of sound familiar, but only to people of a certain age or to students of entertainment history. And just as the grave will swallow Jackson’s fame, time will erode the Estate’s income. It resurrected and then sold what became its most valuable asset to Sony before trial. The value of what it has left, no matter how well managed, will now dwindle as Jackson’s copyrights expire and his image and likeness shuffle first into irrelevance and then into the public domain."

-

Um okay. More likely, Michael Jackson's image and likeness will still remain as iconic and evergreen as those of Elvis and Marilyn Monroe.

-

Jackson's art (which was always more appealing than his public persona/image) will likely continue to moonwalk through eternity for ages and ages like Beethoven, Shakespeare, or Michaelangelo.

---

Recording technology and the digital age has largely made the decay of time, death, and the grave irrelevant.

[Edited 5/4/21 12:13pm]

Disagree. Jackson was a song and dance man. He meant a lot to many people who will one day be dead. His art (aside from his dancing), is forgettable and was disposable (especially once New Jack Swing got him and never let him go). His impact will be remembered longer than the actual "art" and I don't see that lasting too long, either.

steakfinger said:

Yes, Michael was a song and dance man who also COMPOSED some of the most iconic songs/music in history; although, some conveniently TRY to ignore and dismiss that FACT. These songs, his “art” will not be forgotten. MJ has been gone almost 12 years and a new generation of fans have discovered him and LOVE him and his music. Not only will his impact be remembered, his ART(singing, dancing, iconic songs, etc.) will be remembered. Btw,I guess it depends on your circle of friends, who you work with, etc. in order to decide whether his ART will last. In the position that I work, his actual ART is as strong as ever. Amazing and unprecedented because of all of the contrived bullshit and media manipulation that he went through and STILL goes through.
[Edited 5/4/21 22:21pm]
[Edited 5/4/21 22:23pm]

skywalker said:

I agree.

TheEnglishGent said:

arguing that Jackson’s reputation was in tatters at the end of his life, after years of lurid reporting on his eccentric lifestyle and a widely covered trial on child molestation charges, in which Jackson was acquitted.

I really don't think the Prince estate will be able to argue on the same grounds.

Which is BS anyway. The man sold 1 mio concert tickets in 1 city. So hardly a man, who's reputation is "in tatters". But anything to avoid having to pay taxes. Can't fault them there.

langebleu said:

As an aside, the Judge's closing opinion is also a sad reflection:

"Popular culture always moves on. There will come a time when Captain EO joins Monte Brewster and Terry Forbes as names that without googling sort of sound familiar, but only to people of a certain age or to students of entertainment history. And just as the grave will swallow Jackson’s fame, time will erode the Estate’s income. It resurrected and then sold what became its most valuable asset to Sony before trial. The value of what it has left, no matter how well managed, will now dwindle as Jackson’s copyrights expire and his image and likeness shuffle first into irrelevance and then into the public domain."

And that is bullshit too. 40 years on people still know who Elvis is. 40 years on people will still know who Michael is.

steakfinger said:

Disagree. Jackson was a song and dance man. He meant a lot to many people who will one day be dead. His art (aside from his dancing), is forgettable and was disposable (especially once New Jack Swing got him and never let him go). His impact will be remembered longer than the actual "art" and I don't see that lasting too long, either.

And once again. Bullshit. Check out social media. So many of these MJ fan accounts and comments on MJ stuff are run by and are by people who were children when he died. Some even toddlers. There is no shortage of new and young Michael Jackson fans. His music won't die. To the contrary. The bullshit will fade away and what will be focused on will be the music and performances, as it should be. Even the latest bullshit hit piece "Leaving Neverland" couldn't bring him down. They tried it 3 times now.

[Edited 5/5/21 16:14pm]

PatrickS77 said:

The 50 concerts were sold out so fast, in less than 24 hours, even less.
With a friend we tried to get tickets after work, and it was already sold out.

I m pretty sure, he could have sold one million more tickets in another 24 hours, if he wanted to/ could.

In fact the price of the tickets were very low, because nobody, including MJ, foresaw there would be so much demand. They could have priced it twice or three times higher, and it would have sold one million neverthless.

Damn that judge wasn't throwing shade. He was straight-up body-slamming MJ's legacy. Didn't have to be such a cold-ass mofo. He's a MJ hater for sure.

Also I wonder if this and the dismissal of money-grubbing Wade's case frees up the Estate to finally release some shit.

A lot of djs I listen to online play tons of mj as well as Janet, the popularity is still there and he will not be forgotten

langebleu said:

The valuation is determined at the time of his death. I think there are likely to be some identifiable differences between what the respective Estate's of Prince and Michael Jackson could argue to be reasonable.

The judge's ruling identified that, by the time of death, plausible allegations of repellent behaviour ruined his [Jackson's] reputation, and with it his ability to earn much income apart from his music.

He went deeply into debt to keep his life as it had been. Those debts increased; the interest on them rose; bankruptcy was a foreseeable outcome.

Jackson made almost no money attributable to his name and likeness in the last decade of his life, and especially after the 2003 trial.

And in 2009, even as Jackson rapidly sold out multiple concerts, exploitation of his name and likeness earned him only $24.

-----------------------------------------------

As an aside, the Judge's closing opinion is also a sad reflection:

"Popular culture always moves on. There will come a time when Captain EO joins Monte Brewster and Terry Forbes as names that without googling sort of sound familiar, but only to people of a certain age or to students of entertainment history. And just as the grave will swallow Jackson’s fame, time will erode the Estate’s income. It resurrected and then sold what became its most valuable asset to Sony before trial. The value of what it has left, no matter how well managed, will now dwindle as Jackson’s copyrights expire and his image and likeness shuffle first into irrelevance and then into the public domain."

$24 or $24 million?

PennyPurple said:

langebleu said:

The valuation is determined at the time of his death. I think there are likely to be some identifiable differences between what the respective Estate's of Prince and Michael Jackson could argue to be reasonable.

The judge's ruling identified that, by the time of death, plausible allegations of repellent behaviour ruined his [Jackson's] reputation, and with it his ability to earn much income apart from his music.

He went deeply into debt to keep his life as it had been. Those debts increased; the interest on them rose; bankruptcy was a foreseeable outcome.

Jackson made almost no money attributable to his name and likeness in the last decade of his life, and especially after the 2003 trial.

And in 2009, even as Jackson rapidly sold out multiple concerts, exploitation of his name and likeness earned him only $24.

-----------------------------------------------

As an aside, the Judge's closing opinion is also a sad reflection:

"Popular culture always moves on. There will come a time when Captain EO joins Monte Brewster and Terry Forbes as names that without googling sort of sound familiar, but only to people of a certain age or to students of entertainment history. And just as the grave will swallow Jackson’s fame, time will erode the Estate’s income. It resurrected and then sold what became its most valuable asset to Sony before trial. The value of what it has left, no matter how well managed, will now dwindle as Jackson’s copyrights expire and his image and likeness shuffle first into irrelevance and then into the public domain."

$24 or $24 million?

The published decision states $24.

I don't know if I understood correctly but it says in there that the Estate only found among the thousands of tapes they in MJ's vault around 80 something usable songs. So we're scraping the bottom of the barrel. Not much left to release I guess

wilmer said:

I don't know if I understood correctly but it says in there that the Estate only found among the thousands of tapes they in MJ's vault around 80 something usable songs. So we're scraping the bottom of the barrel. Not much left to release I guess

Where did you read that?

PatrickS77 said:

HollywoodReporter attached the court documents at the bottom of its report. It's in there under a section titled Jackson's death. Scrolled down to hunt for unreleased songs.

Posthumous Albums and the Hunt for Unreleased Songs

After Jackson’s death, Sony engaged in an extensive search for unreleasedsongs to evaluate for possible future release. Jackson was not working on anyalbum when he died and had not released any album containing new material since2001. He was, however, known to over-record songs on his albums. He kept these unreleased recordings in his personal vaults.Sony’s corporate spelunkers crawled through these vaults and found 7,000to 10,000 pieces of tape. These were mostly tailings and very little pay dirt. Therewere only 2 completed and unreleased recordings and approximately 25-30 full
vocals with some music.

The Estate has confirmed a total of 83 songs--fragments of lyrics, tunes, and vocals--that were unreleased at the time of Jackson’s death.They also found that there was often a reason for an unreleased song to remain unreleased, or a “full vocal” not to be a “song”. Sony executive JohnDoelp credibly testified that once a vocal was identified, Sony had “to take a step back” and ask whether it was commercially viable. Doelp described the process asfollows: “[I]f it’s a demo vocal, it’s very possible that it’s just a bad performance. There could be notes that are flat * * * [or] not well recorded. * * * [I]t could justnot sound good, and then the song itself just might not be good or just not up toMichael’s standards[.]”There was some refined gold beneath the dross, so in November 2009, the Estate and Sony Music Entertainment contracted for the Estate to deliver 10 posthumous albums between October 2009 and December 2016. Of those 10albums, however, only 2 required delivery of master recordings of previouslyunreleased compositions. These 2 albums required 10 to 13 songs. There was norequirement that Jackson composed these songs, only that he performed them. Anadditional three anniversary albums were to “contain previously unreleased[r]ecordings
derived
from” the songs on the original albums. (

wilmer said:

Posthumous Albums and the Hunt for Unreleased Songs After Jackson’s death, Sony engaged in an extensive search for unreleasedsongs to evaluate for possible future release. Jackson was not working on anyalbum when he died and had not released any album containing new material since2001. He was, however, known to over-record songs on his albums. He kept these unreleased recordings in his personal vaults.Sony’s corporate spelunkers crawled through these vaults and found 7,000to 10,000 pieces of tape. These were mostly tailings and very little pay dirt. Therewere only 2 completed and unreleased recordings and approximately 25-30 full vocals with some music. The Estate has confirmed a total of 83 songs--fragments of lyrics, tunes, and vocals--that were unreleased at the time of Jackson’s death.They also found that there was often a reason for an unreleased song to remain unreleased, or a “full vocal” not to be a “song”. Sony executive JohnDoelp credibly testified that once a vocal was identified, Sony had “to take a step back” and ask whether it was commercially viable. Doelp described the process asfollows: “[I]f it’s a demo vocal, it’s very possible that it’s just a bad performance. There could be notes that are flat * * * [or] not well recorded. * * * [I]t could justnot sound good, and then the song itself just might not be good or just not up toMichael’s standards[.]”There was some refined gold beneath the dross, so in November 2009, the Estate and Sony Music Entertainment contracted for the Estate to deliver 10 posthumous albums between October 2009 and December 2016. Of those 10albums, however, only 2 required delivery of master recordings of previouslyunreleased compositions. These 2 albums required 10 to 13 songs. There was norequirement that Jackson composed these songs, only that he performed them. Anadditional three anniversary albums were to “contain previously unreleased[r]ecordings derived from” the songs on the original albums. (

Okay. Thanks. Doesn't sound too promising. I wonder though what they where thinking, 10 albums in 7 years. Makes no sense either way.

PatrickS77 said:

Now, aren't there recordings in the possession of producers like RedOne and Will.i.am and maybe even Q and Teddy? I think I've heard this before.

wilmer said:

PatrickS77 said:

Okay. Thanks. Doesn't sound too promising. I wonder though what they where thinking, 10 albums in 7 years. Makes no sense either way.

Now, aren't there recordings in the possession of producers like RedOne and Will.i.am and maybe even Q and Teddy? I think I've heard this before.

Yes. Will has said that he has songs. And that he will never release them.

PatrickS77 said:

Ne yo did some recordings with mj too right?

alphastreet said:

Right, but I remember NeYo saying he would send music over but he didn't know whether Michael was laying vocal tracks on them.

wilmer said:

He probably didn’t get to vocals, but I think he yo also doesn’t want to release them though I’m curious

wilmer said:

PatrickS77 said:

Okay. Thanks. Doesn't sound too promising. I wonder though what they where thinking, 10 albums in 7 years. Makes no sense either way.

Now, aren't there recordings in the possession of producers like RedOne and Will.i.am and maybe even Q and Teddy? I think I've heard this before.

Yep. John Barnes who worked with MJ from '83 to '08 also said there's recordings they worked on that may need a bit more "finishing" and could be released. IIRC he mentioned "Make or Break" and "Buffalo Bill" that were from '83-85 in a interview with the MJCast

steakfinger said:

This is such a laughably bad take.
[Edited 5/8/21 11:06am]

alphastreet said:

A lot of djs I listen to online play tons of mj as well as Janet, the popularity is still there and he will not be forgotten

It's not too different than the fact that Britney Spears will continue to be as famous as long as the shameful Beyonce Knowles continues to be famous.

*

Beyonce Knowles must live with the shame that Britney Spears is a better songwriter than her for the rest of her life.

PatrickS77 said:

Will I Am has nothing, only the instrumental tracks he gave to MJ.
MJ never recorded them.