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Thread started 01/01/21 1:50pm

JayCrawford

When would you say R&B went downhill?

For me it was around the late 80s - early 90s. New Jack Swing killed it and then it progressively got worse when they would add hip hop elements to it and the constant sampling and covers was too much... Most groups and solo artists then would just show off their upper body but 90% of them couldn't sing at all. They all sounded the same as well, no Identity to their hits and vocals.

Also every damn R&B song were so damn slow. Every ballad were insanely slow 😂

What about you ?
[Edited 1/1/21 13:53pm]
[Edited 1/1/21 15:13pm]
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Reply #1 posted 01/01/21 2:12pm

purplethunder3
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There was still good R&B after New Jack Swing but there was less of it as the 90s progressed...and became extremely scarce after that.

"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything." --Plato
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Reply #2 posted 01/01/21 2:30pm

JayCrawford

purplethunder3121 said:

There was still good R&B after New Jack Swing but there was less of it as the 90s progressed...and became extremely scarce after that.



At least someone gets my point. Fair enough if you liked that whole New Jack swing stuff though.

Around 1994-1999 R&B was just awful 😂.
[Edited 1/1/21 14:31pm]
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Reply #3 posted 01/01/21 2:50pm

kitbradley

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JayCrawford said:

For me it was around the late 80s - early 90s. New Jack Swing killed it and then it progressively got worse when they would add hip hop elements to it and the constant sampling and covers was too much... Most groups and solo artists then would just show off their upper body but 90% of them couldn't sing at all. They all sounded the same as well, no Identity to their hits and vocals. What about you ? [Edited 1/1/21 13:53pm]

Yes, I 100% agree. New Jack Swing was definately a huge turning point in R&B. We had veteran R&B acts going new jack swing trying to keep up with the trends, often times, sounding ridiculous! There were still some very good traditional sounding R&B throughout most of the 90s but New Jack Swing and the infusion of hip-hop definately altered the genre in a huge way.

"It's not nice to fuck with K.B.! All you haters will see!" - Kitbradley
"The only true wisdom is knowing you know nothing." - Socrates
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Reply #4 posted 01/01/21 2:57pm

alphastreet

Maybe it’s my age, but r&b was awesome in the 90s, I think maybe it went downhill for some time in the early 00s but picked up again towards the second half of the decade though it seemed to disappear after that, mainstream wide other than Beyoncé songs. I love that she put out the 4 album at a time r&b wasn’t trendy
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Reply #5 posted 01/01/21 3:00pm

JayCrawford

alphastreet said:

Maybe it’s my age, but r&b was awesome in the 90s, I think maybe it went downhill for some time in the early 00s but picked up again towards the second half of the decade though it seemed to disappear after that, mainstream wide other than Beyoncé songs. I love that she put out the 4 album at a time r&b wasn’t trendy


Meh, is possibly a generational thing. But early 00s was equally as bad as the 90s for R&B in my opinion.
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Reply #6 posted 01/01/21 3:12pm

JayCrawford

kitbradley said:



JayCrawford said:


For me it was around the late 80s - early 90s. New Jack Swing killed it and then it progressively got worse when they would add hip hop elements to it and the constant sampling and covers was too much... Most groups and solo artists then would just show off their upper body but 90% of them couldn't sing at all. They all sounded the same as well, no Identity to their hits and vocals. What about you ? [Edited 1/1/21 13:53pm]

Yes, I 100% agree. New Jack Swing was definately a huge turning point in R&B. We had veteran R&B acts going new jack swing trying to keep up with the trends, often times, sounding ridiculous! There were still some very good traditional sounding R&B throughout most of the 90s but New Jack Swing and the infusion of hip-hop definately altered the genre in a huge way.




You know... Your statement made me realize that it was probably best for my favourite artist ever like Donna Summer to have just fuck off out the music world after the 80s... I'll never EVER forget my reaction to Mistaken Identity 😂😂.

Sometimes artists just need to step back... She did the right thing.

But yes there were SOME good traditional R&B but from 94-99? It was gone.
[Edited 1/1/21 15:13pm]
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Reply #7 posted 01/01/21 3:40pm

alphastreet

JayCrawford said:

alphastreet said:

Maybe it’s my age, but r&b was awesome in the 90s, I think maybe it went downhill for some time in the early 00s but picked up again towards the second half of the decade though it seemed to disappear after that, mainstream wide other than Beyoncé songs. I love that she put out the 4 album at a time r&b wasn’t trendy


Meh, is possibly a generational thing. But early 00s was equally as bad as the 90s for R&B in my opinion.


Early 00s were worse, I thought Ashanti was so overrated and didn’t like that she having more hits than 80s and 90s artists were at that time. I also think there was more ageism then too in music
[Edited 1/1/21 15:40pm]
[Edited 1/1/21 15:43pm]
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Reply #8 posted 01/01/21 4:12pm

JayCrawford

alphastreet said:

JayCrawford said:



Meh, is possibly a generational thing. But early 00s was equally as bad as the 90s for R&B in my opinion.


Early 00s were worse, I thought Ashanti was so overrated and didn’t like that she having more hits than 80s and 90s artists were at that time. I also think there was more ageism then too in music
[Edited 1/1/21 15:40pm]
[Edited 1/1/21 15:43pm]


The early 00s did suck. Ashanti thinking she can sing, Destiny's Child aka The Supremes wannabes, Usher was garbage too. D'angelo thinking becoming naked equals talent. Jill Scott and her boring ass music.

But 90s R&B was also bad too. Brandy? She couldn't even sing to save her life and she once said Whitney was her biggest influence 😂

Aaliyah and her awful vocal ability and her shitty dancing skills? R Kelly the Marvin Gaye wannabe. So many one hit wonders as well when it came to groups (same thing applies to the early 00s) and the constant sampling and covers of older songs

In fact my complaints about 90s R&B is the same as the early 00s 😂

Both eras were awful.
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Reply #9 posted 01/01/21 4:23pm

lastdecember

avatar

90's pretty much but this was for other genres too because of the advent of Soundscan and the only thing that mattered was your week one sales, not that you were a longevity artist, but can you make me money now. RB in the 90's for me was all about the guy open shirt groups, Next, Shai, 112 etc... Not saying these dudes cant sing, but ariana grande can sing and she has nothing memorable pretty much in songs. This is the case that RB became all aabout ONE thing, the bedroom song, the beat, no on was playing an instrument. Every time i ask someone name me a big rb band the last twenty years that cant name more than Mint COndition. Please. RB sold its SOUL to the remix, to the Hip Hop collabo and 80minute albums full of nonsense, not saying other genres didnt do this, they did, but RB sold it out in the 90s everything after was attempts to get it back.


"We went where our music was appreciated, and that was everywhere but the USA, we knew we had fans, but there is only so much of the world you can play at once" Magne F
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Reply #10 posted 01/01/21 4:30pm

phunkdaddy

avatar

kitbradley said:



JayCrawford said:


For me it was around the late 80s - early 90s. New Jack Swing killed it and then it progressively got worse when they would add hip hop elements to it and the constant sampling and covers was too much... Most groups and solo artists then would just show off their upper body but 90% of them couldn't sing at all. They all sounded the same as well, no Identity to their hits and vocals. What about you ? [Edited 1/1/21 13:53pm]

Yes, I 100% agree. New Jack Swing was definately a huge turning point in R&B. We had veteran R&B acts going new jack swing trying to keep up with the trends, often times, sounding ridiculous! There were still some very good traditional sounding R&B throughout most of the 90s but New Jack Swing and the infusion of hip-hop definately altered the genre in a huge way.



I didn't mind NJS to an extent. Of course Teddy Riley(production)and Guy were the best at it and even Full Force who planted the seeds before them were good.I just hated the cheesy ass dances that accompanied it during Guy's era. lol
Yep all the veteran acts tried their hand at it too to remain what they called radio friendly but like you stated some often sounded ridiculous.
I think it actually went downhill in the mid to late nineties when R&B started cloning itself with all these girl groups and boy groups and solo artists wanting to be singers and rappers as well.
Don't laugh at my funk
This funk is a serious joint
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Reply #11 posted 01/01/21 4:36pm

alphastreet

JayCrawford said:

alphastreet said:



Early 00s were worse, I thought Ashanti was so overrated and didn’t like that she having more hits than 80s and 90s artists were at that time. I also think there was more ageism then too in music
[Edited 1/1/21 15:40pm]
[Edited 1/1/21 15:43pm]


The early 00s did suck. Ashanti thinking she can sing, Destiny's Child aka The Supremes wannabes, Usher was garbage too. D'angelo thinking becoming naked equals talent. Jill Scott and her boring ass music.

But 90s R&B was also bad too. Brandy? She couldn't even sing to save her life and she once said Whitney was her biggest influence 😂

Aaliyah and her awful vocal ability and her shitty dancing skills? R Kelly the Marvin Gaye wannabe. So many one hit wonders as well when it came to groups (same thing applies to the early 00s) and the constant sampling and covers of older songs

In fact my complaints about 90s R&B is the same as the early 00s 😂

Both eras were awful.


Aw I enjoyed all those artists in the 90s except d’angelo, and the sampling of older music made me discover the originals so in its own way, it was passing down traditional hits
[Edited 1/1/21 16:36pm]
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Reply #12 posted 01/01/21 4:47pm

JayCrawford

alphastreet said:

JayCrawford said:



The early 00s did suck. Ashanti thinking she can sing, Destiny's Child aka The Supremes wannabes, Usher was garbage too. D'angelo thinking becoming naked equals talent. Jill Scott and her boring ass music.

But 90s R&B was also bad too. Brandy? She couldn't even sing to save her life and she once said Whitney was her biggest influence 😂

Aaliyah and her awful vocal ability and her shitty dancing skills? R Kelly the Marvin Gaye wannabe. So many one hit wonders as well when it came to groups (same thing applies to the early 00s) and the constant sampling and covers of older songs

In fact my complaints about 90s R&B is the same as the early 00s 😂

Both eras were awful.


Aw I enjoyed all those artists in the 90s except d’angelo, and the sampling of older music made me discover the originals so in its own way, it was passing down traditional hits
[Edited 1/1/21 16:36pm]


Oh fair enough lol.
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Reply #13 posted 01/01/21 5:33pm

JayCrawford

lastdecember said:

90's pretty much but this was for other genres too because of the advent of Soundscan and the only thing that mattered was your week one sales, not that you were a longevity artist, but can you make me money now. RB in the 90's for me was all about the guy open shirt groups, Next, Shai, 112 etc... Not saying these dudes cant sing, but ariana grande can sing and she has nothing memorable pretty much in songs. This is the case that RB became all aabout ONE thing, the bedroom song, the beat, no on was playing an instrument. Every time i ask someone name me a big rb band the last twenty years that cant name more than Mint COndition. Please. RB sold its SOUL to the remix, to the Hip Hop collabo and 80minute albums full of nonsense, not saying other genres didnt do this, they did, but RB sold it out in the 90s everything after was attempts to get it back.



Damn, this is the greatest answer I've read. What's funny is that Donna Summer said something exactly similar to what you said about money and music lol.

"If you think it's about the music unfortunately that's not the case, is more about selling records than music" - 1994 interview Donna Summer.

It wasn't even just the repetitive topic about sex in that specific genre back in the 90s that was the problem but every artist for R&B back then sounded like they were just moaning and screaming then too, especially male groups too like Jodeci, Guy, Boyz II Men, Dru Hill, Silk and loads more, all of them opening up their buttoned shirts and touching themselves up.

Many of the solo artists for R&B all sounded the same too and the rehash and samples of older hits and I always felt they were trying too hard to copy other artists way too much in every aspect, the characters, singing, song writing etc etc.

Now in terms of R&B groups. In my opinion you're wasting your time asking people about that question because let's be real, all of the top groups were from the 70s and early 80s 😂. Also you can say those groups you mentioned can't... If anyone tried to deny it, I'll back you up lol


But I agree with your answer
[Edited 1/1/21 18:15pm]
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Reply #14 posted 01/01/21 5:44pm

MickyDolenz

avatar

phunkdaddy said:

solo artists wanting to be singers and rappers as well.

Rapping & singing has happened since the first official hip hop records in 1979. Some early rappers had sung in songs and singers/bands did some rapping or had guest rappers:

Kurtis Blow
Grandmaster Flash & The Furious 5
The Sequence
Eddie Cheeba
Paulette & Tanya Winley
Blondie

Frankie Smith
Wham! (their debut single was Wham! Rap)
Stevie Wonder (he even produced a rap song called The Crown by Gary Byrd)
Johnny "Guitar" Watson
Teena Marie
Force MDs
New Edition
Stacy Lattisaw
Fatback Band
Millie Jackson
James Brown
Big Audio Dynamite
Bob Dylan (he appeared on a Kurtis Blow song)
Chaka Khan

Falco

Bohannon
Modern Romance
Cameo

Tom Tom Club

Secret Weapon

You can take a black guy to Nashville from right out of the cotton fields with bib overalls, and they will call him R&B. You can take a white guy in a pin-stripe suit who’s never seen a cotton field, and they will call him country. ~ O. B. McClinton
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Reply #15 posted 01/01/21 6:59pm

phunkdaddy

avatar

Let me clarify. It seemed as though 90's singers wanted to become full time rappers. Teddy Riley is a perfect example even though we know he wasn't known as a pure soulful singer he was a stylist singer.

I'm not referring to singers in the 80's like Teena Marie, etc. that sings and throw a rap like verse in

their songs. Even Lionel Richie did a brief rap line on the Commodores Time and that was a mid tempo record. lol

R&B took a hit in the 90's with these aforementioned groups like Shai, Silk, Jodeci, etc and female

groups like SWV, Total, etc. These groups were often produced by lab coat technicians with very little to no live instrumentation. Some of the material was good but it eventually broke all the way down to bland and boring because it became a cookie cutter model that just ran it's course. The guy groups definitely became a bore with all the sex you down overkill. Also as mentioned before there was only one R&B band during the 90's that brought something different to the table Mint Condition. There were also the Tonies who came around in 1988 as well but internal conflict ruined the band by 1996.

Don't laugh at my funk
This funk is a serious joint
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Reply #16 posted 01/01/21 7:24pm

JayCrawford

phunkdaddy said:

Let me clarify. It seemed as though 90's singers wanted to become full time rappers. Teddy Riley is a perfect example even though we know he wasn't known as a pure soulful singer he was a stylist singer.


I'm not referring to singers in the 80's like Teena Marie, etc. that sings and throw a rap like verse in


their songs. Even Lionel Richie did a brief rap line on the Commodores Time and that was a mid tempo record. lol


R&B took a hit in the 90's with these aforementioned groups like Shai, Silk, Jodeci, etc and female


groups like SWV, Total, etc. These groups were often produced by lab coat technicians with very little to no live instrumentation. Some of the material was good but it eventually broke all the way down to bland and boring because it became a cookie cutter model that just ran it's course. The guy groups definitely became a bore with all the sex you down overkill. Also as mentioned before there was only one R&B band during the 90's that brought something different to the table Mint Condition. There were also the Tonies who came around in 1988 as well but internal conflict ruined the band by 1996.




The easiest way to sum up 90s R&B for men and women.

Men: taking off your clothes and moan (as if you're fucking someone since 90% of them didn't sing) your way through the charts > Talent.

Women: looking like a model and used as a sex symbol and 0 vocal ability > Talent

There you go and nice picture. Best album the group ever did in my opinion.
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Reply #17 posted 01/01/21 7:45pm

MickyDolenz

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phunkdaddy said:

Also as mentioned before there was only one R&B band during the 90's that brought something different to the table Mint Condition. There were also the Tonies who came around in 1988 as well but internal conflict ruined the band by 1996.

What about Brand New Heavies & Jamiroquai? They had a 1970s sound. BNH did put out an album with all rappers on it though.

You can take a black guy to Nashville from right out of the cotton fields with bib overalls, and they will call him R&B. You can take a white guy in a pin-stripe suit who’s never seen a cotton field, and they will call him country. ~ O. B. McClinton
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Reply #18 posted 01/01/21 7:57pm

phunkdaddy

avatar

MickyDolenz said:

phunkdaddy said:

Also as mentioned before there was only one R&B band during the 90's that brought something different to the table Mint Condition. There were also the Tonies who came around in 1988 as well but internal conflict ruined the band by 1996.

What about Brand New Heavies & Jamiroquai? They had a 1970s sound. BNH did put out an album with all rappers on it though.

Brand New Heavies for sure. How could I forget considering I have a few of their CD's.

Never could get into Jamiroquai but they certainly were around.

Don't laugh at my funk
This funk is a serious joint
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Reply #19 posted 01/01/21 8:08pm

MickyDolenz

avatar

phunkdaddy said:

Brand New Heavies for sure. How could I forget considering I have a few of their CD's.

Never could get into Jamiroquai but they certainly were around.

Sade was still around in the 1990s too. A lot of people think that Sade is a solo singer, but they're a band named after the lead singer.

You can take a black guy to Nashville from right out of the cotton fields with bib overalls, and they will call him R&B. You can take a white guy in a pin-stripe suit who’s never seen a cotton field, and they will call him country. ~ O. B. McClinton
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Reply #20 posted 01/01/21 8:14pm

JayCrawford

MickyDolenz said:



phunkdaddy said:


Brand New Heavies for sure. How could I forget considering I have a few of their CD's.


Never could get into Jamiroquai but they certainly were around.



Sade was still around in the 1990s too. A lot of people think that Sade is a solo singer, but they're a band named after the lead singer.




Sade only had 1 album in the 90s, Love Deluxe. Her most successful period were the 80s, Diamond Life, Stronger Than Pride and Promise are her top selling albums and did very very well on the charts.

Sade was pretty much out of the picture then in the 90s. Throughout the 80s she was huge
[Edited 1/1/21 20:15pm]
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Reply #21 posted 01/01/21 8:21pm

SoulAlive

kitbradley said:



JayCrawford said:


For me it was around the late 80s - early 90s. New Jack Swing killed it and then it progressively got worse when they would add hip hop elements to it and the constant sampling and covers was too much... Most groups and solo artists then would just show off their upper body but 90% of them couldn't sing at all. They all sounded the same as well, no Identity to their hits and vocals. What about you ?

Yes, I 100% agree. New Jack Swing was definately a huge turning point in R&B. We had veteran R&B acts going new jack swing trying to keep up with the trends, often times, sounding ridiculous! There were still some very good traditional sounding R&B throughout most of the 90s but New Jack Swing and the infusion of hip-hop definately altered the genre in a huge way.




I agree,it was the late-80s New Jack Swing sound that ruined “real” R&B.Also,adding hip-hop elements and guest rappers to R&B songs became an annoying trend.I remember James Ingram had an embarrassing New Jack Swing song during this period (“It’s Real”).Even he hated it,but said it’s what the record company wanted.
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Reply #22 posted 01/01/21 8:21pm

alphastreet

JayCrawford said:

MickyDolenz said:



phunkdaddy said:


Brand New Heavies for sure. How could I forget considering I have a few of their CD's.


Never could get into Jamiroquai but they certainly were around.



Sade was still around in the 1990s too. A lot of people think that Sade is a solo singer, but they're a band named after the lead singer.




Sade only had 1 album in the 90s, Love Deluxe. Her most successful period were the 80s, Diamond Life, Stronger Than Pride and Promise are her top selling albums and did very very well on the charts.

Sade was pretty much out of the picture then in the 90s. Throughout the 80s she was huge
[Edited 1/1/21 20:15pm]


When she released her albums in 2000 and 2010 she was considered popular as well for all her music
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Reply #23 posted 01/01/21 8:25pm

JayCrawford

alphastreet said:

JayCrawford said:




Sade only had 1 album in the 90s, Love Deluxe. Her most successful period were the 80s, Diamond Life, Stronger Than Pride and Promise are her top selling albums and did very very well on the charts.

Sade was pretty much out of the picture then in the 90s. Throughout the 80s she was huge
[Edited 1/1/21 20:15pm]


When she released her albums in 2000 and 2010 she was considered popular as well for all her music



I don't recall hearing her name throughout 2000 and 2010 to be honest lol. But fair enough. But she was definitely a big star in the 80s, but it could depend where you're from too
[Edited 1/1/21 20:25pm]
[Edited 1/1/21 20:34pm]
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Reply #24 posted 01/01/21 8:25pm

phunkdaddy

avatar

MickyDolenz said:

phunkdaddy said:

Brand New Heavies for sure. How could I forget considering I have a few of their CD's.

Never could get into Jamiroquai but they certainly were around.

Sade was still around in the 1990s too. A lot of people think that Sade is a solo singer, but they're a band named after the lead singer.

Correct but they hit the national scene in 1985 but were already established by the 1990's.

Don't laugh at my funk
This funk is a serious joint
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Reply #25 posted 01/01/21 8:48pm

alphastreet

JayCrawford said:

alphastreet said:



When she released her albums in 2000 and 2010 she was considered popular as well for all her music



I don't recall hearing her name throughout 2000 and 2010 to be honest lol. But fair enough. But she was definitely a big star in the 80s, but it could depend where you're from too
[Edited 1/1/21 20:25pm]
[Edited 1/1/21 20:34pm]


I remember her tours were popular
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Reply #26 posted 01/01/21 8:53pm

JayCrawford

alphastreet said:

JayCrawford said:




I don't recall hearing her name throughout 2000 and 2010 to be honest lol. But fair enough. But she was definitely a big star in the 80s, but it could depend where you're from too
[Edited 1/1/21 20:25pm]
[Edited 1/1/21 20:34pm]


I remember her tours were popular


What's your favourite Sade album?
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Reply #27 posted 01/01/21 8:59pm

MickyDolenz

avatar

phunkdaddy said:

Correct but they hit the national scene in 1985 but were already established by the 1990's.

I also remember LL Cool J, Heavy D, Mary J Blige, & Jodeci appearing on MTV Unplugged. The 2nd Color Me Badd album had a band on it. Bootsy Collins played on 2 or 3 of the songs. It didn't do as well as the 1st one though. The OutKast records had a band on them too. Debra Killings was the bassist on a lot of OutKast songs and she also sang background on a lot of TLC songs.

You can take a black guy to Nashville from right out of the cotton fields with bib overalls, and they will call him R&B. You can take a white guy in a pin-stripe suit who’s never seen a cotton field, and they will call him country. ~ O. B. McClinton
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Reply #28 posted 01/01/21 9:43pm

phunkdaddy

avatar

SoulAlive said:

kitbradley said:

Yes, I 100% agree. New Jack Swing was definately a huge turning point in R&B. We had veteran R&B acts going new jack swing trying to keep up with the trends, often times, sounding ridiculous! There were still some very good traditional sounding R&B throughout most of the 90s but New Jack Swing and the infusion of hip-hop definately altered the genre in a huge way.

I agree,it was the late-80s New Jack Swing sound that ruined “real” R&B.Also,adding hip-hop elements and guest rappers to R&B songs became an annoying trend.I remember James Ingram had an embarrassing New Jack Swing song during this period (“It’s Real”).Even he hated it,but said it’s what the record company wanted.

lol

I remember the song and video. James Ingram definitely seemed out of his element on this one.

I also remember Brian McKnight stating he hated You Should Be Mine produced by P Diddy ft. Mase but he agreed to do what the record company wanted. It sounded like a cheesy song that was way out of McKnight's element and something that was suited for one of P Diddy's proteges.

Don't laugh at my funk
This funk is a serious joint
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Reply #29 posted 01/01/21 10:18pm

alphastreet

JayCrawford said:

alphastreet said:



I remember her tours were popular


What's your favourite Sade album?


The first album, diamond life
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