When every RnB song had to have a rap added to it?

OldFriends4Sale said:

The minute hiphop starting showing up on R&B tracks.

Graycap23 said:

alphastreet said:

Would that be friends by Jody Watley and rakim, or fantasy featuring odb?

Not counting the acts who rapped on their own songs like Force MDs or New Edition, the first one to become a big pop hit was I Feel For You by Chaka Khan & Melle Mel. Before that, there were R&B songs that had breakdancing or pop locking in the music videos but no actual rapping like All Night Long by Lionel Richie & Save The Overtime by Gladys Knight & The Pips. There was also Rockit by Herbie Hancock, which has a DJ scratching instead of a rapper. Around the same time there was also collabos with James Brown & Afrika Bambaataa called Unity and Stevie Wonder & Gary Byrd called The Crown.

MickyDolenz said:

MickyDolenz said:

alphastreet said:

Would that be friends by Jody Watley and rakim, or fantasy featuring odb?

Not counting the acts who rapped on their own songs like Force MDs or New Edition, the first one to become a big pop hit was I Feel For You by Chaka Khan & Melle Mel. Before that, there were R&B songs that had breakdancing or pop locking in the music videos but no actual rapping like All Night Long by Lionel Richie & Save The Overtime by Gladys Knight & The Pips. There was also Rockit by Herbie Hancock, which has a DJ scratching instead of a rapper. Around the same time there was also collabos with James Brown & Afrika Bambaataa called Unity and Stevie Wonder & Gary Byrd called The Crown.

Yes that stuff happened. But it wasn't some 'expectant' by the 90 pushing forward, any RnB song had to have a rap and it almosst seemed the 'original' was the remix

Graycap23 said:

JoeTyler said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Yes that stuff happened. But it wasn't some 'expectant' by the 90 pushing forward, any RnB song had to have a rap and it almosst seemed the 'original' was the remix

Electrofunk from the early to mid-1980s was a mixture of hip hop & Kraftwerk style electronic dance music. The electrofunk songs were often used by breakers for their routines. Same for the slightly later Miami Bass genre. Songs like Egyptian Lover, Freak A Zoid, In The Mix, Scorpio, Herbie Hancock's Future Shock album & the producer/remixer Arthur Baker. Hip hop is not just the rapping MC. It includes graffiti, breakdancing, locking, popping, fashion, & the DJ scratching records & using breakbeats. In early hip hop the DJ was generally the focus. They were either the leader of the group (Rock Master Scott And The Dynamic 3, Grandmster Flash And The Furious Five, DJ Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince, etc.) or the group released songs about their DJ.

JoeTyler said:

MickyDolenz said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Yes that stuff happened. But it wasn't some 'expectant' by the 90 pushing forward, any RnB song had to have a rap and it almosst seemed the 'original' was the remix

Electrofunk from the early to mid-1980s was a mixture of hip hop & Kraftwerk style electronic dance music. The electrofunk songs were often used by breakers for their routines. Same for the slightly later Miami Bass genre. Songs like Egyptian Lover, Freak A Zoid, In The Mix, Scorpio, Herbie Hancock's Future Shock album & the producer/remixer Arthur Baker. Hip hop is not just the rapping MC. It includes graffiti, breakdancing, locking, popping, fashion, & the DJ scratching records & using breakbeats. In early hip hop the DJ was generally the focus. They were either the leader of the group (Rock Master Scott And The Dynamic 3, Grandmster Flash And The Furious Five, DJ Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince, etc.) or the group released songs about their DJ.

And you said the magic word right there which is "dance". That's why I never use the word "hip hop" to refer to the foolishness that killed music. Hip hop, especially early 1980s hip hop, was great. I loved it and still do. Hell, most of it in those days was released on 12 Inch singles only and what were 12 Inches for? They were for clubs. And what do you do in clubs? You dance. It was fun, party, funky danceable dance music. It wasn't the generic stripped down "talking over a slow cheap sounding beat" that it eventually evolved into. That's when I started calling it "shit hop" it doesn't deserve to be in the same category as the earlier stuff. There's a big difference between hip hop and shit hop.

MickyDolenz said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Yes that stuff happened. But it wasn't some 'expectant' by the 90 pushing forward, any RnB song had to have a rap and it almosst seemed the 'original' was the remix

Electrofunk from the early to mid-1980s was a mixture of hip hop & Kraftwerk style electronic dance music. The electrofunk songs were often used by breakers for their routines. Same for the slightly later Miami Bass genre. Songs like Egyptian Lover, Freak A Zoid, In The Mix, Scorpio, Herbie Hancock's Future Shock album & the producer/remixer Arthur Baker. Hip hop is not just the rapping MC. It includes graffiti, breakdancing, locking, popping, fashion, & the DJ scratching records & using breakbeats. In early hip hop the DJ was generally the focus. They were either the leader of the group (Rock Master Scott And The Dynamic 3, Grandmster Flash And The Furious Five, DJ Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince, etc.) or the group released songs about their DJ.

Good information. Yes I'm familiar with it. I was right there in NYC hearing/seeing it happen.

Yes I've always refered to Hip Hop as the culture. I was a lil graffiti artist. Had the singles and a little bit of the style.

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Dad "It's a fad, it will go away"

I think Dad was right

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I began dispising the 'rap' that was added to every RnB song. Most of the time I did not understand how it related to the song

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Got Till It's Gone - Janet (I love Q-Tip and Tribe Called Quest) but I didn't need his rap on this song
HUGE fan of Meshell NDegeochello, her style of singing was almost talking at times which was almost rappish. I don't recall her having rap added to any ofher songs. She might have had Redman and Missy on 1 album.

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Janet Jackson - Got 'Til ... - YouTube

vainandy said:

Hell, most of it in those days was released on 12 Inch singles only and what were 12 Inches for? They were for clubs. And what do you do in clubs? You dance.

But there's ballads on 12" maxi singles too. I know because I have some. Maybe they're for slow dancing.

vainandy said:

I agree with the above in most cases.

Up to around 1987/88 most R&B was well sung and well written love songs like Always by Atlantic Star, or upbeat positive stuff like Lean on me by Club Nouveau. The sexy stuff was always there and it was really the arrival of New Jack Swing and Rap that saw the downfall.

This generally reached most R&B around 1988/89 and the rise of Bobby Brown and all these ex New Edition dudes like BBD and others saw the rise of more funkier upbeat songs - but also the sex and gyrating stuff.

To me, the first really oversexed cuts were songs like It Feels Good by Toni Tony Tone and Do Me by BBD in 1990. These were still decent though, good singing and musicality. But in 1991 it got worse with stuff like I wanna sex you up and Lets get naked etc.

I think the arrival of One Hit wonder groups like Silk and H town was the real decline, Freak Me is a great song, but incredibly filthy - the bits about licking you up and down and getting the whipped cream, the moaning and gyrating and the rise of the open shirt stuff. And Joe singing about all the things the man wouldn't do, Adina Howards Freek like me, great songs - but just more sex and Ginuwine's Pony - damn that is a stereotypical 90s sex jam if ever I heard one. Gyrating dudes, bare chests, moaning, pony meaning dick etc.

Jodeci lowered the bar more, great singing but very sexist and graphic songs "Baby when I close my eyes, I wake up feeling so HORRNNNYYYY!" and they have a very sexy model mouthing it in the video. Still these dudes sang and Dalvin even played the drums, plus no one was calling the women bitches and hoes yet - even if they referred to women as bitches off stage. I had all 3 of the Jodeci albums and still play their stuff a lot. No one can top KC in the "sanging" department.

To me the true arrival of bad R&B was Puff Daddy and all those guys around 1997, all those girls singers Ashanti, Mia, Lil Kim, Aaliyah etc and Faith. Also I have never been a fan of R Kelly.

By 98 the lines between R&B and Rap/Hip Hop had been blurred, every rap song had a singer and every R&B cut had a rapper or 3 on them.

Still there were great songs and acts in this group, Shai come to mind, Mint Condition and Blackstreet, one of my favourites and not forgetting Janet Jackson's, Janet and the Velvet Rope!

alphastreet said:

alphastreet said:

Graycap23 said:

The minute hiphop starting showing up on R&B tracks.

Would that be friends by Jody Watley and rakim, or fantasy featuring odb?

I think Jody tries to take credit for it but someone mentioned Chaka Khan with

Melle Mel on I Feel For You 1984. Also LeVert beat Jody a year earlier as well with Just Coolin

featuring Heavy D.

ReddBlitz said:

Aaaaah, no. Let's try Chaka Khan's "I Feel For You." lol

The Gary Byrd & Stevie Wonder song came out a year before Chaka's, but it wasn't a big hit. It doesn't feature a guest rapper, but Telephone Bill by Johnny Guitar Watson is entirely rapped by Johnny and he sings the hook. It came out in 1980, and so did Millie Jackson's I Had To Say It. Techically you can even go back to around 1964 with Shirley Ellis' Name Game.

JoeTyler said:

Graycap23 said:

The minute hiphop starting showing up on R&B tracks.

And Prince knew it.

According to the SOTT podcasts, he was recognizing the change in the late 80's.

Tony M aside, it's interesting that many of his hit tracks in the 90's sounded much more like traditional R&B than what else was charting those days.

namepeace said:

JoeTyler said:

Graycap23 said: And Prince knew it.

According to the SOTT podcasts, he was recognizing the change in the late 80's.

Tony M aside, it's interesting that many of his hit tracks in the 90's sounded much more like traditional R&B than what else was charting those days.

There you go, straight away I think of early 90s songs like

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The Morning Papers

Damn U

Dark

Money don't matter 2 night

Pink Cashmere

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Perfect examples of what early 90s R&B should have been!

Purplegarden said:

namepeace said:

According to the SOTT podcasts, he was recognizing the change in the late 80's.

Tony M aside, it's interesting that many of his hit tracks in the 90's sounded much more like traditional R&B than what else was charting those days.

There you go, straight away I think of early 90s songs like

.

The Morning Papers

Damn U

Dark

Money don't matter 2 night

Pink Cashmere

.

Perfect examples of what early 90s R&B should have been!

All great examples. I was thinking of his singles primarily, "Cream," "Diamonds and Pearls," "Money," "TMBGITW," etc. But you're right. My favorite track of the 90's may very well be "And God Created Woman."

And of course when Gladys Knight said in 93/94 about the lack of quality music now when songs about licking people up and down and spreading on whipped cream are #1 hits. She was referring to Freak Me by Silk which was #1 in May 1993. I wonder what she would say about Cardi B and Meghan Thee Stallion?

Purplegarden said:

And of course when Gladys Knight said in 93/94 about the lack of quality music now when songs about licking people up and down and spreading on whipped cream are #1 hits. She was referring to Freak Me by Silk which was #1 in May 1993. I wonder what she would say about Cardi B and Meghan Thee Stallion?

Maybe Gladys is happy for her Anyway what they're doing, Millie Jackson was doing in the 1970s. So was Blowfly, but Blowfly is a dude. You can even go back to the 1930s with Lucille Bogan.

Totally, some of those 20s and 30s Blues singers, Ma Rainey and the rest. Lucille Bogan had a song called "Scrub em down blues" or something and the lines included "Fuck them". Ma Rainey apparently sung a lot of lesbian stuff and it was popular. Even Mamie Smith got in on the act.

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I read a book about the history of queer musicians and a lot of props was given to those women.

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But things were discrete in those days, they were dressed up and jazzing around, no men in matching shirts ripping them off and gyrating around while beautiful scantily clad women muttered sweet nothings. Also there was a lot of that stuff in the 40s and 50s too like Big Mama Thornton and the like.

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50s R and B was also full of sexy lines like 60 minute man by the Dominos (1951 - 15 minutes for kissin, 15 minutes for teasin, 15 minutes for pleasing and 15 minutes for blowing my top). Then of course you have all the Annie songs by the Midnighters, Work with me Annie, Sexy Ways and Annies Aunt Fanny and all the answer songs like Annie had a baby, Roll with me Henry etc.

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Sex was always there, but the 90s were when it was more blatant and tasteless, plus with those old songs people were singing and playing - they dressed up nice in a time of limited hygiene. Whereas by the 90s they all wore casual clothes if any - no instruments but drum machines and just processed voices in some cases (Yes I know Jodeci were a band, but who is playing a guitar in Silk?).

JayCrawford said:

vainandy said:

And you said the magic word right there which is "dance". That's why I never use the word "hip hop" to refer to the foolishness that killed music. Hip hop, especially early 1980s hip hop, was great. I loved it and still do. Hell, most of it in those days was released on 12 Inch singles only and what were 12 Inches for? They were for clubs. And what do you do in clubs? You dance. It was fun, party, funky danceable dance music. It wasn't the generic stripped down "talking over a slow cheap sounding beat" that it eventually evolved into. That's when I started calling it "shit hop" it doesn't deserve to be in the same category as the earlier stuff. There's a big difference between hip hop and shit hop.

Rakim and Big Daddy Kane were good rappers. I mean they weren't talking about killing people and playing the gangster gimmick unlike 90% of rappers throughout the 90s and 00s.

I remember in the mid 90's my girlfriend at the time had 2 younger sisters who were in high

school at the time and we threw a birthday party for one of them and they had their friends

over. I was playing mostly music of that time and even put on some Heavy D. One of their friends

came over and asked why I was playing Heavy D. He is like the Cosby Show.

I asked her what the fuck does that mean? She said he's not hard and too clean cut.

I told her that's what's wrong with your fucking generation now. Yall think rappers now should shout out ignorant shit referring to women as bitches and hoes. I said you can learn something from

Heavy D like how he treats women and actually watch his intelligence at work.

When R&B (Rhythm & Blues) became RnB (Rap 'n Bullshit).

Purplegarden said:

they dressed up nice in a time of limited hygiene. Whereas by the 90s they all wore casual clothes if any

A lot of rock acts of the era just wore jeans and a plain shirt, especially southern rock bands. Same in country although some still wore Nudie suits.