Shit hop definitely killed it in the early to mid 1990s but you have to go back further to see what led up to it being able to take over. Rap records had been around since 1979 but they were good songs. Yeah, there was some stripped down, slow to midtempo rap in the 1980s but it was underground and wasn't on the radio. The rap records that made it onto the radio were the good ones at a fast tempo like Soul Sonic Force, Egyptian Lover, Twilight 22, Whodini, etc. Some rap acts had albums but most of them simply released 12 Inch singles and 12 Inches were predominately fast because they were for clubs and the dance floor. Funk is what dominated back then so if a rap act wanted to be on the radio, they had better be able to compete with funk because that stripped down "talking over a slow ass beat" wasn't going to make it onto the radio back then. Rap was no threat to music back then and the good rap was played on the radio right alongside the funk and it all sounded great.

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When the problem began was in 1985 when a certain little goodie two shoes by the name of Shitney Houston came on the scene and became so successful. Most crossover artists usually had weaker songs than the artists that didn't crossover but hers was even weaker because she wasn't just trying to crossover from black to white audiences, she went after the kids, the parents, and the grandparents too. She opened the doors wide open for people like Anita Baker, Freddie Jackson, Regina Belle, Miki Howard, and so many other adult contemporary artists to flood the R&B airwaves. There was still plenty of funk around but the adult contemporary mess was outselling it. Previously, when you would listen to R&B radio, it put you in the mood to go out, party, and have fun. Now when you turned the radio on, it felt like you were sitting on the front porch with the whole family with your pants unzipped after a big Sunday dinner after church while watching the children play in the front yard. When it comes to R&B, just like rock, young people are into rebellion and badasses. The last thing they think is cool is something that kids or grandma would like. With funk and bands gone and the tempo of the radio slowed down to a much slower tempo, the timing was perfect for the type of shit hop that had previously been underground to fill the rebellion void and also keep the adult contemporary tempo going. And when the record companies saw how cheap it was compared to bands, they made damn sure that nothing was going to dethrone it.

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[Edited 1/2/21 8:45am]

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

SoulAlive said:

I remember James Ingram had an embarrassing New Jack Swing song during this period (“It’s Real”).

I like this track. I still have the 12" remix single for it. I don't know about James dancing in the video though. I think Rick Astley did his choreography

phunkdaddy said:

SoulAlive said:

kitbradley said: I agree,it was the late-80s New Jack Swing sound that ruined “real” R&B.Also,adding hip-hop elements and guest rappers to R&B songs became an annoying trend.I remember James Ingram had an embarrassing New Jack Swing song during this period (“It’s Real”).Even he hated it,but said it’s what the record company wanted.

I remember the song and video. James Ingram definitely seemed out of his element on this one.

I also remember Brian McKnight stating he hated You Should Be Mine produced by P Diddy ft. Mase but he agreed to do what the record company wanted. It sounded like a cheesy song that was way out of McKnight's element and something that was suited for one of P Diddy's proteges.

Yeah,it's sad and hilarious at the same time record companies forcing these R&B artists to jump on the latest trends....making them sound ridiculous.

MickyDolenz said:

SoulAlive said:

I remember James Ingram had an embarrassing New Jack Swing song during this period (“It’s Real”).

I like this track. I still have the 12" remix single for it. I don't know about James dancing in the video though. I think Rick Astley did his choreography

ironically,the next single from that album was a big,adult contemporary ballad called "I Don't Have The Heart",which became a massive hit.It's exactly the type of song that James excelled at....as opposed to that phony,New Jack Swing sound (which was more suitable for the youngsters)

a few other examples of older artists embarassing themselves with new jack swing grooves....

"Workin' Overtime" by Diana Ross (1988)

"As Long As We're Together" by Al Green (1989)

phunkdaddy said:

I also remember Brian McKnight stating he hated You Should Be Mine produced by P Diddy ft. Mase but he agreed to do what the record company wanted. It sounded like a cheesy song that was way out of McKnight's element and something that was suited for one of P Diddy's proteges.

yep,another example of an R&B artist being forced to jump on the hip-hop bandwagon.And look what happened...the song didn't do very well,but the next single,"Anytime" (which is more of Brian's style) became a huge hit single.

SoulAlive said:

ironically,the next single from that album was a big,adult contemporary ballad called "I Don't Have The Heart",which became a massive hit.It's exactly the type of song that James excelled at....as opposed to that phony,New Jack Swing sound (which was more suitable for the youngsters)

James started out in a funk band though and he wrote songs like Bad Mama Jama & PYT. The band was even in the Dolemite movie. So he basically did the same thing people on this site criticizes Lionel Richie for

MickyDolenz said:

SoulAlive said:

ironically,the next single from that album was a big,adult contemporary ballad called "I Don't Have The Heart",which became a massive hit.It's exactly the type of song that James excelled at....as opposed to that phony,New Jack Swing sound (which was more suitable for the youngsters)

James started out in a funk band though and he wrote songs like Bad Mama Jama & PYT. The band was even in the Dolemite movie. So he basically did the same thing people on this site criticizes Lionel Richie for

yeah,Vainandy has a real problem with artists like that but to me,James was best when he was doing ballads.Which is probably why most of his uptempo singles never really did that well (remember "Party Animal" in 1983?).He is remembered mostly for stuff like "Just Once" and "Baby Come To Me" with Patti Austin.

There are only three new jack swing songs that I liked...

"Groove Me" by Guy (1988)

"Girl I Got My Eyes On You" by Today (1989)

a funny thing about the Today song......after all these years,I just recently found out that their song is based on a 1982 song by Carrie Lucas called "Show Me Where You're Coming From" that's where the chorus melody comes from.

I agree,alot of the early rap songs are great.In the early 80s,I loved stuff like "White Lines" by Grandmaster Flash & Melle Mel,the early Run-DMC singles,etc.

vainandy said:

Shit hop definitely killed it in the early to mid 1990s but you have to go back further to see what led up to it being able to take over. Rap records had been around since 1979 but they were good songs. Yeah, there was some stripped down, slow to midtempo rap in the 1980s but it was underground and wasn't on the radio. The rap records that made it onto the radio were the good ones at a fast tempo like Soul Sonic Force, Egyptian Lover, Twilight 22, Whodini, etc. Some rap acts had albums but most of them simply released 12 Inch singles and 12 Inches were predominately fast because they were for clubs and the dance floor. Funk is what dominated back then so if a rap act wanted to be on the radio, they had better be able to compete with funk because that stripped down "talking over a slow ass beat" wasn't going to make it onto the radio back then. Rap was no threat to music back then and the good rap was played on the radio right alongside the funk and it all sounded great.

SoulAlive said:

yeah,Vainandy has a real problem with artists like that but to me,James was best when he was doing ballads. Which is probably why most of his uptempo singles never really did that well (remember "Party Animal" in 1983?). He is remembered mostly for stuff like "Just Once" and "Baby Come To Me" with Patti Austin.

Like Peabo Bryson is mostly known today for songs from Disney animated movies like Aladdin & Beauty And The Beast. Even more so since both of those have been remade as live action movies in recent years.

SoulAlive said:

JayCrawford said:

SoulAlive said:

I agree,alot of the early rap songs are great.In the early 80s,I loved stuff like "White Lines" by Grandmaster Flash & Melle Mel,the early Run-DMC singles,etc.

80s rap in general I like, Rakim, Big Daddy Kane. But around the 90s when every rapper were playing the gangster gimmick? Nah I'm good.

Gangster gimmick is right, unfortunately that gimmick was responsible for the death of a lot of young black men. I wonder do any of those that glorified and promoted that crap, carry a burden of guilt?

Legacy artists hopping on new genre band wagons isn't anything new though; could anything be worse than Ethel Merman doing a disco album?

^^Johnny Mathis, Frank Sinatra, Paul McCartney, Astrud Gilberto, Frankie Valli, Barbra Streisand, Mickey Mouse, & The Beach Boys also released disco records

MickyDolenz said:

^^Johnny Mathis, Frank Sinatra, Paul McCartney, Astrud Gilberto, Frankie Valli, Barbra Streisand, Mickey Mouse, & The Beach Boys also released disco records

Some of those were good; Ethel Merman's is an example of a complete mismatch.

purplethunder3121 said:

Some of those were good; Ethel Merman's is an example of a complete mismatch.

What about David Faustino's & Brian Austin Green's hip hop records in the 1990s? Or Pat Boone releasing an album of heavy metal tunes done in a 1930s big band style? Or Celine Dion singing she's a "nappy headed boy" when she performs I Wish by Stevie Wonder.

SoulAlive said:

MickyDolenz said:

purplethunder3121 said:

Some of those were good; Ethel Merman's is an example of a complete mismatch.

What about David Faustino's & Brian Austin Green's hip hop records in the 1990s? Or Pat Boone releasing an album of heavy metal tunes done in a 1930s big band style? Or Celine Dion singing she's a "nappy headed boy" when she performs I Wish by Stevie Wonder.

Equally bad examples!

purplethunder3121 said:

Equally bad examples!

I like Pat's Crazy Train. It was used as the theme song for The Osbournes MTV reality show. They lived next door to Pat Boone.

JayCrawford said:

Well, so far everyone has said the 90s was the decline of R&B which isn't a surprise to me. Especially what New Jack Swing did to it.

I said no such thing.

MickyDolenz said:

purplethunder3121 said:

Equally bad examples!

I like Pat's Crazy Train. It was used as the theme song for The Osbournes MTV reality show. They lived next door to Pat Boone.

Hey, you're entitled to like bad music! I like Disco Duck!

MickyDolenz said:

MickyDolenz said:

I hated R&B in the 90's. But have to admit that nowadays I enjoy listening to some of the 90's R&B. I like it better now than then (likely out of nostalgia).

funkaholic1972 said: